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Commons:Requests for comment/Palestine and Palestinian territories

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The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Old (2012) discussion with one detail added in May 2013. –Be..anyone (talk) 11:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]


This Request for Comment concerns the naming of the Palestinian territories and historical Palestine in category names. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maps of Palestine, and maps of Palestinian territories edit

I was looking for some Area A, B, and C maps of the West Bank today because they are in the news. I need to put some maps here:

But it seems that many of the old Palestine maps are being mixed up with the maps of the Palestinian territories. The categories are completely screwed up. I created some of the categories long ago, and they made a lot more sense than they do now after people have been mixing up "Palestine" with "Palestinian territories". See the article en:Palestine for the various meanings over time.

See: Category:Maps of Palestine. It says

Maps of the region of Palestine before 1948.

Unfortunately, many maps of the Palestinian territories are now being mixed in randomly.

Here is the version as I left it in 2007:

Both versions are similar in terminology. But back then maps of the Palestinian territories were in separate categories, and not mixed up with maps of historic Palestine.

I suggest that on the Commons we continue to use "Palestinian territories" for those territories in the West Bank and Gaza. I suggest we continue to use "Palestine" to refer to the region. Otherwise we will have chaos. We can explain this on the category pages so that no one is offended or thinks that we are denying statehood to Palestine. See en:State of Palestine.

But we have to have a way to separate old and new maps.

For some reason some of the Area A, B, and C maps of the West Bank are found here:

This is messed up. The name is confusing. One of the parent categories is Category:SVG maps of Palestine. This is so totally unhelpful for finding anything. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also: Commons:Administrators' noticeboard#Maps of Palestine, and maps of Palestinian territories. I added it there as a subsection of a related discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:21, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I guess as many other categories, they need occasional clean up, since as new images are added by users unfamiliar with the topic, they often end up in incorrect or very general categories related to the topic. I do not know much about the region, but I am sure whatever help you can provide in organizing it would be appreciated. --Jarekt (talk) 13:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
+1. It is a confusing mess. There's even a category loop: Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories -> Category:Maps of the history of the Palestinian territories -> Category:Maps of the Arab-Israeli conflict -> Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories... Rd232 (talk) 16:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We need to get Foroa on board, too. I believe he is using "Palestine" in category names to refer to the Palestinian territories. I left a note on his talk page. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As stated here, Israel and Palestine category evolutions are like a chicken running without a head. I don't waste my energy on yet-another-talkpage that will be disappeared within two weeks time. --Foroa (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good point. We can move this to a separate page. I want this to focus specifically on Palestine and the Palestinian territories. The Commons:Administrators' noticeboard discussion is too wide of a discussion.
I requested that this discussion be added to Template:Centralized discussion. See request here: Commons talk:Centralized discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:06, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is linked from Template:Centralized discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:40, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Historical Palestine" and "Modern Palestine" edit

Another possible solution is to use more names that better distinguish between "Historical Palestine" and "Modern Palestine" (state of Palestine) in the category names. "Historical" should not be used in map names, though. See Commons:Categories/Maps and the problematic use of the word "historical" in map category names. We are talking about overall Palestine-related categories, though, and not just maps. So "historical" may be OK in some of the category names.

"History" is OK, of course. See: Category:Maps of the history of Palestine. It lists maps by century. That category name might be changed to "Maps of the history of the region of Palestine". That is a more specific category name. See: Category:History of Palestine. That might be changed to "History of the region of Palestine".

The Atlas of Palestine introduction has links to articles that list the names, and their meanings. We need to use more specific terms for the state of Palestine, historical Palestine (region), etc. See also:

Here are examples of specific category names on the Commons:

UN vote on 29 November 2012 accepts Palestine as non-member observer state edit

It looks like "Palestine" is used in some of the media worldwide, and also in UN News Centre articles. See:

For related efforts see also: en:Palestine 194. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:52, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So I hope this can allow us now move all "Palestinian territories" categories to "Palestine", preceded by the renaming of "Palestine"-cats into "Historic Palestine", "Pre-1948 Palestine" or one of the like Orrlingtalk 14:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent). France to back Palestinian bid for enhanced UN status. By AFP. FRANCE 24. Nov. 27, 2012.

Palestine UN Recognition: Nonmember State Endorsement Makes Palestinians Euphoric. By Mohammed Daraghmeh and Karin Laub. 30 Nov 2012. Huffington Post.

Some partial quotes from the article:

  • "The massive international recognition of the Palestinians' right to a state – only nine of 193 General Assembly members voted against it"
  • "after the United Nations endorsed an independent state of Palestine"
  • "The historic General Assembly decision late Thursday to accept 'Palestine' as a non-member observer state"
  • "The endorsement of the pre-1967 line as the border of Palestine"

Map: How Europe voted on Palestine at the U.N., in 2011 and now. By Max Fisher. November 29, 2012. Washington Post. The maps are very helpful. Some partial quotes:

  • "138 in favor, nine against, and 41 abstentions."
  • "Here are the big changes between the 2011 vote and today’s: Five countries switched from 'abstain' to 'yes': Italy, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Georgia. Three countries switched from 'no' to 'abstain': Germany, Netherlands, Lithuania. One country switched from 'no' to 'yes': Sweden. One country was absent: Ukraine, which had abstained in 2011. It happens." --Timeshifter (talk) 17:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza Strip and West Bank edit

It may be better for now to categorize mainly under Category:Gaza Strip and Category:West Bank. It is hard to call them a unified country right now, under any name. The governments of the two territories don't get along. They have separate governments. Hamas is currently boycotting elections in the West Bank. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This may be regarded as a short-term viewing of a rather long-lasting complexity. In the eyes of the Nations these are two parts of one nation/country you name it. Until GAza Strip dissolves into Egyptian rule and/or same happens with the Best Wank to Jordan we may not decide for this PEOPLE only because its current LEADERSHIP is inept. You know, Congo DR is still a unified-country term on Commons with its multiple regional sects, rebels and (self-proclaimed) governments. Same is Spain. Orrlingtalk 03:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I meant though that many topics can be categorized first under either the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. For example; "Writers from the West Bank" and "Writers from the Gaza Strip."
The difficult problem is under what do we categorize the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? I suggest waiting until the upcoming UN vote (see previous talk section) in November 2012, or whenever, to see if the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are called a country by the majority in the UN, and under what name. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah no, creating categories for "xxx (preposition) the West Bank" and "xxx (preposition) the Gaza Strip" apart will not only end us up erecting multiple category pages for one or two images with no reason, but will most importantly implement by wiki tools a false scheme displaying the two parts of Palestine as nationally, politically & socially separate entites, a status favoured by religious Jewish trolls some of which operating here too. As I'm a Heb Wikipedia editor I know how significantly the introduction of a wishful-thinker's reality into the veins of the joint inputs contributes to the wide-scale slanting of what needs to be univarsally factual, objective and broad-viewd. The vast majority of the Palestinian territories' habitants view the Strip and the Bank as one entity as much as these are internationally viewed so, and we thus shouldnot count just on how good or bad their politicians work, which evidently comes so fluctuating.
As to the latter question that you raised, I'd propose the State of Palestine. If they happen to finally dismantle & either part takes own destiny then we have a point in severing "People of the West Bank" from "People of Gaza" Orrlingtalk 23:58, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Gaza Strip and Category:West Bank already exist. Just like states in the United States. It does not indicate "a false scheme displaying the two parts of Palestine as nationally, politically & socially separate entites" just as state categories for the United States does not indicate anything along those lines. Except for maybe the state of Texas, where some crazy separatists live. :) --Timeshifter (talk) 08:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What about Alaska? Orrlingtalk 14:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Alaska. en:Alaskan Independence Party. See: en:List of active separatist movements in North America. There are categories for most or all of the states and provinces of the USA and Canada. That is a separate issue from separatism. In the USA separatism is a fringe issue. Unlike in some other nations and regions in the world where it is much more serious. But it should not effect our categorization in my opinion. We still have categories for states, provinces, and territories. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Google edition adopts 'Palestine' edit

In a statement given to the BBC on Friday, Google spokesman Nathan Tyler said: "We're changing the name 'Palestinian Territories' to 'Palestine' across our products. We consult a number of sources and authorities when naming countries.

"In this case, we are following the lead of the UN, Icann [the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, ISO International Organisation for Standardisation and other international organisations."

--Timeshifter (talk) 03:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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