Category talk:Israelis of Ethiopian descent

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Please explain editEdit

From User talk:ליאור

Hi. If you believe this edit was right, please clarify why. Thankz, Orrlingtalk 22:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Israeli citizens are not categorized by the color of their skin. Aulcie Perry has nothing to do with Israelis of Ethiopian descent, the relevant category is Category:Immigrants to Israel by country of origin. Best, ליאור (talk) 10:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi again. I know this is something dear to you, but I need to challange your view about this category, I'm sorry. Category:People of Black African descent in Israel is not a category that "categorizes Israeli citizens by the color of their skin". At best, it appears you possess some unpleasantly incorrect understanding of the People by descent scheme. This category has nothing to do with skin colour. It's relating to the geographic origin of people, that is, where their ancestries have once come from. On this ground, "People of Black African descent" refers to people living worldwide with roots in Subsaharan Africa and respectively, "People of Black African descent in Israel" is there purely for every person or group of Israelis with Black-African background, and replacing it with "Category:Immigrants to Israel by country of origin" is a baffling idea as a large share of today's Israeli Ethiopians were born in Israel and therefore cannot be classified as immigrants, unless you maybe want them to feel they should remain immigrants for ever. Thanks. Orrlingtalk 13:13, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Why is this classification exclusive for Israelis of Ethiopian descent? If and when similar categorizations will be applied to Jews from all other countries of origin, this peculiar categorization may be discussed again. ליאור (talk) 13:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I keep arguing that the category is in its right place, and that without it the Israel descent scheme is incomplete. We so far have People of North American descent in Israel and People of Black African descent in Israel, of course this is not enough but this doesnot entitle you to disinherit the Ethiopian subcategory from an important parent. Israel is no special: there's many blacks living in Israel nowadays, some are citizens (the Ethiopian Jews), others came as workers, refugees or religious sects. All of them merit being under category:People of Black African descent in Israel, just like Africans in the UK go at People of Black African descent in the United Kingdom. Personally I cannot accept that you repeat an edit that is clearly disputed (and unreasonable), but it will remain for now without me restoring the cat untill a further conclusion is achieved by more than just two of us. Orrlingtalk 15:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Could you please explain the purpose and informative content of Category:People of North American descent in Israel? It does not signify an ethnic group, nor a particular country of origin. Moreover, it is categorized under Category:People of North America despite the fact that it is populated by people who do not live in North America. There also seem to be no similar categories for People of North American descent in any other country but Israel.
Category:People of Black African descent in the United Kingdom is a subcategory of Category:People of the United Kingdom by ethnicity. A sister subcategory is Category:Jewish people of the United Kingdom, which may include any Beta Israeli who lives in the United Kingdom. Similarly, any Beta Israeli living in Israel should be categorized either by the country of origin of his\her father (as per the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics' definition), or by its ethnicity, as was practiced with Category:Bukharan Jews and Category:Indian diaspora in Israel. Since Aulcie Perry does not belong to the Beta Israeli ethnic group, nor to its ethnic clade, there is no reason to group them together under a common category. They do not originate from New York, he does not originate from the Ethiopian Highlands.
If we still disagree, I agree with you that we should listen to others' opinions. If this is the case, please move this discussion to the category's talk page. Thanks, ליאור (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry. but you seem to be still expressing a very unpleasantly inaccurate understanding of how categories on the Commons function and what they are for. First rule — they are not organized from an Israeli point of view. and before you are capabe to assimilate this in your discourse and argumentations we probably cannot proceed in making you understand why Israelis of Ethiopian descent are also Israelis of African descent. You are sure that being a Black is a pejorative, and this is unworkable. On this project all categories are universal. The black people category comprises Category:People of Sub-Saharan Africa which has People of Black African descent as a subcategory that is intended to be populated by any file pertaining to Black persons living outside Africa. Likewise, Category:People of North America is for people either originating in or living in North America, while "originating in" is regarded as a descent for any purpose, with little concern of ethnicity. Orrlingtalk 19:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Please refrain from speculating about the personal opinions of your colleagues. These speculations are disruptive to this discussion, their conclusions are incorrect, and my real personal opinions are irrelevant. The only remarks that are relevant to this discussion are:
  1. Evidence-based assertions about Beta Israel and comparable Ethnic groups.
  2. Technical assertions regarding the category structure that best serves the users of Wikimedia Commons.
On November 23rd you have argued that our goal is to relate "Israelis of Ethiopian descent" to their geographic origin. This goal is currently achieved. All Israelis of Ethiopian descent are Beta Israel. Beta Israel is one ethnic group out of ~seventy ethnic groups in Ethiopia. This brings us to Category:Ethnic groups in Africa and Category:People of Africa. Thus the curiosity of our users regarding the geographic origin of "Israelis of Ethiopian descent" is fully satisfied at present.If there is something our users currently miss that we can provide with another category, please specify it. ליאור (talk) 08:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Again, as said previously, you've failed and are still failing at presenting a logical understanding of how Wiki's category flow chart is designed, you believe that a Black person is something pejorative that shouldn't meet people's groups (even if they're black...) and failed to get editors to hang with you on these unsustainable stances. Hope you still get a broader acquaintance with the general "People by descent" structure to further realize why we categorize ppl by more than just their political/episodic group titles but also pay attention to their ethnogeographic characteristics. Orrlingtalk 06:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Human skin color distribution
The Habesha people consider themselves to be African, not Black African. See:
  1. חיים רוזן, "על עבודתו של אנתרופולוג ממשלתי בקרב עולי אתיופיה" בתוך שלוה וייל (עורכת) יהודי אתיופיה באור הזרקורים, משרד החינוך, תשנ"ז, עמ' 65-66
  2. דני בודובסקי, מאוצר הפתגמים של יהודי אתיופיה,
Indeed, not all Subsaharn Africans are black, whatever black is by your standards. Beta Israeli people, like other ethnic groups in the Ethiopian Highlands, manifest a range of skin colors and shades similar to those found in Yemen and much of India. Thus they should be categorized as Africans, or East Africans, which they do. ליאור (talk) 12:43, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
For the first time, that's a fair argument. However, still - we sadly do not categorize files according to their subjects' fashion of perceiving themselves, but from an objective point of view. In this light, we cannot severe the Ethiopian Jews from Black Jews, the Ethiopian Israelis from Black Israelis and any such idea that relies on skin-colour nuances. These people are Blacks. Indeed, I've noticed their remarkable affinity to the Yemenite Israelis in appearance and more, but they are nevertheless darker, and unlike the Yemen jews (who have kept themselves considerably isolated throughout generations) the Jews of East Africa have naturally assimilated in their ethnic surroundings, and have also - in parts - adopted christianity. A good step to think about can be the creation of Category:Jews of East Africa to be in service of several categories. This is a good think but will not replace the existing attribution to Black Africans which they are, also manifested by them-selves in a Kiryat Mal'achi demonstration January 2012: "No, No, We Won't Let / The Black Person to Be Wretched" and "Black I Am and Pretty". Orrlingtalk 13:00, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
The fact that some Christian Ethiopians are descendants of Jews who have adopted Christianity during the First Millenium (see Nine Saints) is irrelevant to our discussion, since you do not become Black by adopting Christianity. Moreover, on November 23rd you have already stressed that this category "has nothing to do with skin colour", so it's unclear why you share with us your hypotheses regarding their "skin-colour nuances". From an ethnic point of view, both the Amhara people and Beta Israel are more closely linked to neighbouring ethnic groups in the Middle East, Yemen and North Africa, than to other African ethnic groups which you classify as "Black". If you're aware of a different ethnic classification, please publish it in a peer-reviewed journal and cite it here.
On top of that, Hagit Yaso was born in Israel, thus she's as much "Ethiopian Israeli" as Benjamin Netanyahu is "Polish Israeli". ליאור (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Very again and again you're failing at keeping track with the topic's progressions and our dialogue renders inept the more we need to cope with challenged reading comprehension – by saying that we cannot employ any such idea that relies on skin-colour nuances I was referring to you advocating in a previous post that we be attentive to Highland Ethiopians' self-determination as non-Blacks... This could be so amusing were it not a dash sad and embarrassing. The point is that whatever be, by severing Category:Israelis of Ethiopian descent from Category:Black African Israelis we lose a sygnificant tie of coherecy universally practiced across Wiki, i.e the Africans of the Subsahara being majorly Black People (regardless of you optionally naming them "Alfa Israel", "Beta Israel" or such) are categorized respectively, as identically done with e.g Category:African Americans that speaks to ppl who derive from a share broad root of People of Black African descent although they present an immense range of skin colours. If you want to create a category:People of African descent with a 67% rank skin opacity I will not be the one that stops you. Go ahead. But for now, as mentioned, we have Black Arficans, that is discerned from the Oceania natives - and grips all Subsaharan Africans, even if it's a generalization. OK? This is what categories are about. The initial title of this category was Israelis of Ethiopian descent, and it was moved to Ethiopian Israelis since someone has applied a "lock" on the original page; when I find the 10 minutes I can move it back there as I got the lock lifted and obviously Hagit Yaso like others is an Israeli of Ethiopian descent and not Ethiopian Israeli. So little point for you in emphasizing this irrelevancy.
Also, you can not blank file descriptions, you may only edit/modify them. Thanks. Orrlingtalk 01:10, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it is not a good idea to mix-up ethnic groups, skin colors and places of origin. While black people in general might be acceptable, an association via Black African diaspora with the Sub Saharan people automatically implies the classic archetype black person, to which belong the Category:Negrito too, but will not be accepted by several tribes in Africa. If you would push such logic even further, one could state that all Jewish people are Arabs, that people in Israel are Palestinians and finally that Ethiopian Israelis are basically Arabs and Palestinians. Maybe you don't care about self-determination, but we do as this is the only way to build a peaceful and stable Commons. --Foroa (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

This topic is over, you may use Village Pump if you wish to broadly discuss black-skin category attribution to people of Black African descent. Here on wiki we refrain from applying politically-correct considerations when concerning media categorizing and have long-standing categories of Asians, Arabs, Slavs and Blacks respectively to the diverse ethnic factuality, with the readers' educational benefit being a first and foremost objective. Wikipedia is not a blog. Orrlingtalk 07:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I lately happened upon hearing an opinion that is coincidentally relevant from some colleague that appears to be fluent in the East Africa turf (more precisely the Horn of Africa, that includes Ethiopians) and s/he displayed an assertion saying that generally people of those specific countries (Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea) shouldn't get the category of "Black African descent" regularly attached to other Subsaharan groups. This is primarily due to that these populations are, per that reliable argument, much more related to the Afro-Asiatic family (the one that includes Semitic peoples for example) than to Bantu or interior Africa's groups, those that commonly are categorized as Black people and give rise to our Black African diaspora tree. In other words, the removal of Blacks attributes from Ethiopian categories might be seen as valid, as these are discerned from most Subsaharan nations in questions of ancestral affiliation. I will fix the category. Orrlingtalk 11:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Last modified on 28 January 2014, at 11:11