Last modified on 26 October 2013, at 22:08

Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/05/Categories of victims, fatalities, deaths

Categories of victims, fatalities, deathsEdit

There were made some renames (moves) of categories of "victims" to categories of "deahts". Some other such renames were requested as well as a reversion of the renamed categories to their previous names.

I try summarize main arguments from discussions and edit summaries:

  • The main argument for the first rename direction: "Victims" is too ambiguous, it cover also injured, captives or robbed, not only killed people. The parent category is of people by kind of death.
  • The main argument for the second (reverse) rename direction: "Deaths" is incorrect, the categories contain media and categories about dead peoples as persons who died, not only media about their deaths as events.

--ŠJů (talk) 19:19, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Previous discussions:

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment: There should be a consistent way of naming categories which are sub-categories of "Category:Dead people by manner of death". Personally, I find either "Deaths from ..." or "People who died from ..." fine, but prefer the former as it is shorter. I don't think there is any practical difference between people who have died and their deaths as events, and do not think it is a good idea to try and distinguish between the two. — Cheers, JackLee talk 00:37, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I think, the fact that some other victims can be mixed among dead victims (some memorials are dedicated to all victims) is not so confusing as the fact that some categories of people were renamed to categories of events (deaths). Girolamo Minervini belongs to Category:Victims of terrorism in Italy, Death of Girolamo Minervini would belong to Category:Deaths from terrorism in Italy – but I think, we should not create such categories of deaths. We have relatively few real categories of deaths (see Category:Death of people). We shouldn't confuse them with categories which sort people by manner of death. --ŠJů (talk) 06:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
There is a place for both "Victims" categories and "Deaths from" categories. As you point out, the term victim is wider because it includes people who have been injured or affected, not just people who have died. If it is felt that a category like "Girolamo Minervini" is more appropriately placed under a "Victim" category, that's fine. But "Victims" categories should not be made subcategories of "Dead people by manner of death", because we will end up with people who are not dead in that category. When a "Victims" category is entirely made up of files relating to deceased people, then it is more appropriate to rename it to "Deaths from ...". — Cheers, JackLee talk 08:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I would prefer a uniform "deaths" solution as far as possible because it is simple and covers the majority of the cases. Currently there is a mix-up with victims, casualties, fatalities, ... Each variation on deaths will result unavoidably in a mix-up as can be seen in the various subcategories of Category:War casualties and Category:Victims of war. --Foroa (talk) 06:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
You omitted to give your comments to the fact that these false "deaths" categories (which are really not categoires of deaths but categories of people by their death) are confusable with real categories of deaths (Category:Death of people). We should make clear distinction between categories of people by their death and categories of deaths as events. Categories of people shouldn't be named as categories of events. --ŠJů (talk) 12:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I fail to understand the difference between between categories of "people by their death" and categories of "deaths of people". The results seems the same. --Foroa (talk) 13:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
As is evident from my earlier remarks, I agree with Foroa. — Cheers, JackLee talk 18:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Foroa, you really see no distinction between categories of people and categories of their deaths? Even if I linked Category:Death of people as an example of a real category of deaths? ... I fail to explain it to you :-) --ŠJů (talk) 22:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Requests for moves from people (victims) to deaths (fatalities)Edit

Rename Category:Victims of war (talk) to Category:War fatalities (0 entries moved, 126 to go) Current naming too general and confusing... Tagged 2012-02-08, opposed, discussed.
Rename Category:Victims of Titanic sinking (talk) to Category:Deaths from the sinking of the Titanic (0 entries moved, 24 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, discussed
Rename Category:Victims of massacres during Polish 1970 protests (talk) to Category:Deaths from massacres during the Polish 1970 protests (0 entries moved, 2 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, opposed
Rename Category:Plaques to victims of massacres (talk) to Category:Plaques to deaths from massacres (0 entries moved, 2 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, opposed
Rename Category:People who died by suicide (talk) to Category:Deaths from suicide (0 entries moved, 214 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, discussed
Rename Category:Monuments and memorials to victims of massacres (talk) to Category:Monuments and memorials to deaths from massacres (0 entries moved, 98 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, opposed

Requests for moves from deaths (fatalities) to people (victims, deaths)Edit

Rename Category:Monuments and memorials to deaths from terrorism in Israel to Category:Monuments and memorials to victims of terrorism in Israel (0 entries moved, 42 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Monuments and memorials to deaths from terrorism in Afula to Category:Monuments and memorials to victims of terrorism in Afula (0 entries moved, 10 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths in childbirth (talk) to Category:Women who died during childbirth (0 entries moved, 42 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from terrorism (talk) to Category:Victims of terrorism (3 entries moved, 5 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from terrorism by country (talk) to Category:Victims of terrorism by country (0 entries moved, 5 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from terrorism in the United States to Category:Victims of terrorism in the United States (0 entries moved, 10 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from terrorism in Italy to Category:Victims of terrorism in Italy (0 entries moved, 4 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from terrorism in Israel (talk) to Category:Victims of terrorism in Israel (0 entries moved, 3 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from road accidents to Category:Victims of road accidents (0 entries moved, 85 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from murder (talk) to Category:Victims of murders (0 entries moved, 316 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from massacres (talk) to Category:Victims of massacres (0 entries moved, 8 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from duelling (talk) to Category:People killed in duels (0 entries moved, 21 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Rename Category:Deaths from drowning (talk) to Category:Victims of drowning (0 entries moved, 18 to go) tagged 2012-04-21, opposed
Rename Category:Deaths from diseases and disorders (talk) to Category:Deads from diseases and disorders (0 entries moved, 30 to go) tagged 2012-04-21
Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment: "Deads from diseases and disorders" doesn't make sense. There is no such word as deads in this context. The {{move}} tag should be removed. — Cheers, JackLee talk 17:44, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Deaths is better than "victims". People killed in duels is fine as Deaths from duelling is both awkward but also dueling is US, duelling is UK spelling. Victims from drowning is okay, but there is no need to change that category. Women who died in childbirth is okay, but deaths implies the mother, not the child, so does not need to be changed. I really do not see any need to change any of these, though. Apteva (talk) 01:13, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
I SUPPORT these moves. with of course the exception of language coins that might be doubtful, like "Deads from-" which better remain Deaths or anything better. I DON'T support switching from "Fatalities" or "Victims" to "Deaths" as in some of the entries in the above proposal; "fatalities" is - as pointed out in many other occasions where we discussed this thing - the best word to denote (people who are subject to) loss of life as victims of given event. Most occurrences of "Deaths" will have to be renamed as "Fatalities" (in-turn a subcat of Victims) or back as "Victims". The case with "Deaths from murder" is exceptionally outragious: what was wrong with Victims of murder in the first place? Is there any victim of murder who isn't dead? Orrlingtalk 22:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)