Commons:Quality images candidates/Archives November 12 2018

Consensual review edit

File:An_assisted_para_glider_making_a_descent_near_Khel_Gaon_Resithang,_Sikkim.jpg edit

 

  • Nomination An assisted para glider making a descent near Khel Gaon Resithang, Sikkim--Subhrajyoti07 18:13, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Promotion
  •   Oppose Beautiful but, alas, noisy --Daniel Case 07:17, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Comment - Denoising done. Pl check - Subhrajyoti07 15:17, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support Alright now --Daniel Case 21:35, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support - Good enough quality. Daniel Case, please cross out your first vote - you are voting twice at this point. -- Ikan Kekek 07:34, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Running total: 2 support (excluding the nominator), 1 oppose → Promote?   --Basotxerri 08:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

File:Fb_kd_30928_nusskamp_24_26_2.jpg edit

 

  • Nomination Hamburg-Fuhlsbüttel, building Nußkamp 24 --Dirtsc 08:23, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Decline
  •   Oppose The car spoiled the composition. --C messier 16:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Comment Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this reason. The building is in a residential area and cars are a normal part of the surrounding. They can't be removed easily. Please let's hear more opinions. Greetings --Dirtsc 08:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support Questions of composition should only count as the sole reason for refusal if it is really screwed up. The car is unavoidable here and does not cover any really essential parts of the building. Ok, it's not nice, but it's not FPC here either. Otherwise, I don't see any defects that would prevent the status as a quality image. --Smial 16:16, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Comment Shadow recovery is also an issue (too noisy shadows, check the car surface). The problem with the car is also its bottom crop. --C messier 16:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Oppose Per Cmessier, it was just not the right moment to take this photo --Michielverbeek 08:01, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Total: 1 support (excluding the nominator), 2 oppose →   Declined   --Basotxerri (talk) 08:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

File:Elefante_africano_de_sabana_(Loxodonta_africana),_parque_nacional_Kruger,_Sudáfrica,_2018-07-25,_DD_08.jpg edit

 

  • Nomination African bush elephant (Loxodonta africana), Kruger National Park, South Africa --Poco a poco 11:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Promotion
  •   Oppose Not sharp enough IMO. --Peulle 11:49, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   New version, please, let's discuss, this is a QI to me (latest now). --Poco a poco 19:21, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Hang on ... you reduced the size? In order to make it look sharper?--Peulle 07:53, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support Looks good--Armenak Margarian 08:28, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Comment Please revert to first version. Regarding the high resolution it is by far sharp enough, and the reworked version now has noise artifacts, probably by sharpening. I'd support the first version. --Smial 09:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  •  [No] Downsizing is against the guidelines : "Images should not be downsampled (sized down) in order to appear of better quality. Downsampling reduces the amount of information stored in the image file." Poco should know the rules after this previous warning in the Consensual Reviews. Thus I reverted the edit. To display the original file with an inferior resolution, it's always possible to click on the links below the image and optionally adjust the width in the web address (example displayed at 99 pixels large) -- Basile Morin (talk) 11:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
    •   Comment Dear Basile, I believe a revert should be up to the author in such cases. -- Smial 13:40, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • But then the guidelines are not respected. And this nomination can be withdrawn. Similarly we never accept signatures, watermarks, or pictures by non-Commons users here, whatever the quality, so it's a similar situation IMO. More about the consensual rules -- Basile Morin (talk) 15:51, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Basile Morin: I reverted your edit. Please, be so kind and respect the photographer's decision about which version should be displayed per default. To display the original file with an higher resolution, it's always possible to click on a bigger version in the file history. Regarding the downsizing rule, it's just stupid the way it's. I agree with the purpose of the dowsizing rule that was, as far as I know, to avoid that Commons is used as marketing platform where low resolution images are uploaded and somewhere on the net the photogpher offers the full version (for extra $$$). I don't suport/understand that this rule is used against like me somebody who is systematically offering 50 MPx resolution from around the globe (as nobody else among the regulars does, as far as I know) and gets punished if somewhere it isn't the case (even if the full version is on Commons). As I have explained several times, taking pictures with a 50 MPx is not as easy as with a 25 MPx camera, this I can say from my experience. So, I just have the impression that spending lots of money on a professional equipment is just being punished as I'm always supposed to offer 50 MPx images?? And do I actually have the possibility to use smaller RAW files to save space/money (I can take as many as 10000 in a photo tour)? Is this not an option for somebody like me to decided the RAW size? specially if I know that taking smaller sizes ensures that the images will not be blurry. Guys, don't push too hard here or you'll se no new material of Poco on Commons in full resolution. Poco a poco 20:33, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • That's not "pushing hard" to request to keep the original version. What hurts the community is to promote a file with a lower resolution   instead of the best available.
  • This elephant was featured yesterday with 20 supports, so what's the problem with this camera, honestly ?
  • The few users better equipped are already lucky, so more than others should they show the good example, otherwise it is just unfair and discouraging the other photographers to participate.
  • We can disagree with the guidelines, but not violate them. Now they say ""Images should not be downsampled (sized down) in order to appear of better quality". What's happening here ?
  • Poco, you can always {{Withdraw}} if you really think a 24,7 MPx version increases the amount of information contained in the 50,3 Mpx original.
  • Nobody is "punished" when they upload high-resolution photos. Just each picture has to be sharp in general, also considering the resolution.
  • The Consensual Reviews helps to determine a fair result when there's a disagreement like here. That's usually done without cheating because one oppose is not the end. Each vote is subjective.
  • For every camera, it's possible to change the settings to shoot in lower resolution. But in QIC that's done before, not after the upload, unless there's a good reason for that -- Basile Morin (talk) 03:54, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, you are pushing hard, that thing you refer to again and again is a recommendation and not a must, I learned in the school the difference between shall, must and should. I've always known that rule and, as said, it is good to bring it up if a user misues Commons, but should not be used in this case. The resolution cannot be judged by the maximal possible resolution of the camera. The other day I had to give details why a picture was also of lower resolution than those 50MPx. I start feeling like in a police office. This is no fun and as said, don't push hard or the rope will break.
  • As said, taking sharp pictures with a monster MPx camera is not as easy as with a "regular" one (let's say Canon 5D Mark II vs Canon 5DS). That's a fact as I have experienced it on my own for years. Of course, that doesn't mean that I cannot take HQ pictures at full resolution with a monster MPx camera. If that wouldn't be the case the camera would be crap.
  • Commons shall not take the photopgher away the freedom whether size is reduced before, during or after processing. That must remain a photographers's choice. Judge the result, not the equipment. Every time I see this discussions I wonder why the QI community rejected to increase the minimum resolution of 2 MPx as prerequisite for QI, and you are crossing me if I dare to go down from 50 to 25 MPx. This is ridiculous. --Poco a poco 20:23, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree. If you read the guidelines, it's always "should". Example "Images should have at least 2 real megapixels of information". The only exception for downsampling is with living persons -- Basile Morin 03:53, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support Well, more than 24 MPx is still large file. And what about the fact that it was reduced? I'm agree with Poco a poco. Maybe we should to change the regulations? Tournasol7 22:07, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The problem of accepting a 50% size is it will make everyone reduce the quality of the images they upload. The current rules discourage this temptation very well. Promoting this lower-quality version will send the wrong message that the trick works efficiently for Poco, and for everyone. They will do the same next time. On the contrary, insisting on the full size version and eventually promoting it if it's good enough will make the community aware of the importance of a higher resolution to compensate for the weak sharpness. That's much more intelligent, productive and educative. When we review a picture here, pixel-peeping is not always the reliable method. It's better to evaluate the detail at a reasonable size (example 4000 pixels large), and this effort in the reviewing process should be the norm -- Basile Morin (talk) 07:15, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • We help everyone motivated -- Basile Morin 04:51, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The problem is that you are discouraging users here to get professional equipment and contribute here, as they will be questioned if they upload pictures below the maximum resolution of that expensive equipment. At least I can tell you that I'm discouraged. --Poco a poco 15:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Oppose per the official guidelines, until the highest resolution is restored -- Basile Morin (talk) 03:54, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
    No guideline here, but a recommendation Poco a poco 20:46, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Oppose - As I see it, there's no good reason not to present the full-sized photo. I mean, what's the positive good in that? -- Ikan Kekek 07:54, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
    That the photographer is free to decide how to shoot, how to process and how to modify images later on. Judge the image, not the equipment. And, by the way, if resolution is indeed so important, increase the minimum resolution to somthing like 5 MPx. In the meanwhile it would be hard to find a camera on the market with less that 5 MPx. Poco a poco 20:46, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • That's not the rule, and you don't dispute that you downsized your image to make it appear sharper. There shouldn't be favoritism toward you because we know how good a photographer you are. I continue to oppose based on a plain reading of the rule. People are wrong to accept the direct, open violation of the rule. -- Ikan Kekek 07:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Comment Basile Morin et Poco : je comprends pas cette grande guerre de règles et de principes. Pour moi la première version et la deuxième version sont vraiment mignon et c'est dommage que cette photo ne va pas devenir une photo de qualité. En tout cas j'espère que vous trouverez une bonne solution...--Armenak Margarian 09:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
    Cette discussion concerne (dans mes yeux) la liberté du photographe --Poco a poco 20:46, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
« La liberté des uns s'arrête là où commence celle des autres » -- Basile Morin 03:53, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't see how I could restrict your liberty --Poco a poco 11:29, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
That's your mistake. Like here, in this discussion you don't respect the chronology. Thus, this leads to a mess. By doing this you restrict others' liberty. Similarly, by cheating with the pixels, you're sending this absurd message : "Hey, guys, reduce the quality of your work, and you'll be promoted". Consequently, everyone lose. The works get worse, and the access for everyone to high resolution images decreases. Your freedom to violate the rules ends when everyone start to respect them -- Basile Morin 14:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
No, sorry, your mistake it to insist far beyond the point on a recommendation. If the resolution is above 2 MPx the image is, as it is, free to be QI if the quality is fine. I don't care to go up to 10 or 20 Mpx but I am against taking the capability of the camera as reference to decide what can be QI and can't. If you discourage users like me you will have no high resolution images to discuss about. --Poco a poco 15:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
You accept the minimum resolution of 2 Mpx, but not the downsampling rule. When evaluating images the reviewer should consider the same guidelines as the nominator. -- Basile Morin 04:42, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
No, I think that the 2 MPx is bullshit and should be increased to 10 MPx. At the same time I see no issue if a 50 MPx image is uploaded with 20 MPx. --Poco a poco 18:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Nonsense. You say 2 Mpx is "bullshit" and ask for 10 Mpx to be the minimum, but everyday you nominate pictures below this resolution   (examples : QI, QI, QI, FP, QI, etc.) That means you accept this rule of 2 Mpx to be valid for everyone, Poco included. Then, as this requirement is accepted by every nominator (whatever the oppositions), the similar rule against downsizing must be respected also. That's not because you disagree with these requirements that they stop existing. They're all the same for everyone. That would be scandalous otherwise. You can start a discussion to contest the policies and try to change them if you want, but for now they're applicable. That's the law. And this law, historically, has been created for this situation IMO, exactly (see talk page). The only exception is for living persons (since the 6th of Dec 2017), and this exception had been discussed previously too (here). Ten years ago the cameras were less powerful. Now you're pretending this is just an optional recommendation because it's written "should" and not "must", but all the rules are worded the same way. Example : "All nominated images should be the work of Commons users", and that's why you declined this one yesterday. But imagine someone starts contesting your review, saying "well, not a commoner, but very good quality. I think this rule can be broken." No way. The guidelines say "If an image is promoted despite not being the creation of a Wikimedian, the QI status should be removed as soon as the mistake is detected". And the same may happen to your image also. The QI status should be removed, even if the quality is okay. Once your rule of 10 Mpx will be current, you will start upsizing your small birds because for Poco the quality is sufficient at 6 MP and "this rule is bullshit" -- Basile Morin 06:44, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes! Indeed! Freedom! Poco has been donating photos in best quality and high resolution for years to commons. With this photo he has decided that a slight reduction of his own work will lead to a better result. I really can't see how Poco is affecting any rights or "freedom" of other users. But I can see very well that in this case the artistic freedom of a photographer is restricted, in which a rule is to be enforced violently, which was not created at all for such cases. At the same time, a contributor who has been proving the opposite for years is accused of disregarding rules in order to gain advantages. That is outrageous. (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator) -- Smial 09:57, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you intended to say this, but you just agreed that the rules were broken: "...decided that a slight reduction of his own work will lead to a better result." This is exactly what that rule is in place. Honestly, if I reduced the size of all my images, even the unsharp ones would appear to be good enough. That would be outrageous.--Peulle 11:23, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
My point here is rather that the expectation here is that your images can only become QI if their resolution is close to the maximal resolution of the camera --Poco a poco 11:29, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps. But we have seen images cropped for various reasons, that have been promoted after the procedure and reasoning behind it was explained by the author. In this case, though, what happened was that there was a review saying the image was not sharp enough. At this point, the correct procedure if the nominator disagrees would be to send it to CR and see if other users agree or disagree with the review. And sure, other users may think it's sharp enough. The incorrect procedure is to downsample the image with the specific intention of making the image look sharper. Which is what happened here. I cannot go along with that.--Peulle 12:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Poco "has decided that a slight reduction of his own work will lead to a better result"   -- Basile Morin 12:17, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for citating the complete message, which also says: ... the artistic freedom of a photographer is restricted, in which a rule is to be enforced violently, which was not created at all for such cases. The rule was introduced to exclude some users who wanted to receive the QI label for really low-resolution images to promote their commercial interests outside Wikipedia. This has worked quite well, those users have gone. But there are many technical reasons to downscale images. The majority of my images are downscaled to still reasonable sizes. For reasons. It is exclusively up to the photographer which images he uploads in which resolution. Judge the photo, not the camera equipment. Many quality images here, especially with strong perspective processing, look pretty shitty, precisely because they have NOT been downscaled and the interpolated areas created by the digital post-processing look completely blurred. Although a moderate scaling would have been appropriate, it is not done, because the mantra "full resolution!!!!!" is being enforced senselessly and thoughtlessly. --Smial 15:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC) (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator)
The archives do not confirm that point. The discussions are here. The downsampling rule was introduced on the 4th August 2008 after this discussion in the talk page. Following this date, there have been several discussions related to downsampling (in 2009, 2010, 2014, and 2017), but no one talking about commercial problems. The official discussion displayed on the main page, which is also that one we should agree with, says "We can't predict what devices may be used in the future, so it is important that our best pictures have as high a resolution as possible". It is perfectly possible to get a higher resolution now.
Otherwise, exceptions for big cameras may be explicitly stated. But an invitation to pay great attention to the size would be more constructive -- Basile Morin 05:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support --Ralf Roletschek 09:32, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support --Smial 09:57, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  •   Support --Nerve net 12:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Total: 5 support (excluding the nominator), 3 oppose →   Promoted   --Basotxerri 08:42, 11 November 2018 (UTC)