Last modified on 8 August 2014, at 18:49

Commons talk:Babel

Return to the project page "Babel".


Box stylesEdit

Looking at user pages, I am pleased to found long lists of languages :)

Then, I want to propose a more compact box style for templates, to flexibilize page design. I added the language-level code and links to categories in the box. Did you like this snapshots? Is 240px a good width? Is it enough for verbose languages?

Example:

es-3 Este usuario puede contribuir con un nivel avanzado de español.
en-2 This user is able to contribute with a intermediate level of English.

This is my user page.... bla bla bla

Well, if you like it, we can complete the following "matrix" to see the full snapshot. Thanks! --Pybalo 17:18, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

en-1 This user is able to contribute with a basic level of English.
en-2 This user is able to contribute with a intermediate level of English.
en-3 This user is able to contribute with a advanced level of English.
es-1 Este usuario puede contribuir con un nivel básico de español.
es-2 Este usuario puede contribuir con un nivel intermedio de español.
es-3 Este usuario puede contribuir con un nivel avanzado de español.
fr-1 ...


That looks great. I like it. I'll make the boxes for Esperanto and Hebrew when I get home. Nadavspi 18:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Cool. Please use them! -- Chris 73 22:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I just updated most of the templates except hebrew, chinese, and the polish one is done by TOR -- Chris 73 23:12, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well! But you works too fast! jajaja. Now I can see that "da" is a verbose language, because the box 240px x 45px is not enough for its texts. For checking, I will put all the templates here, to find the best box size, or the best text-size font or the best texts... Ok? Some suggestions for "da-1" and zh-....? --Pybalo 00:28, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am adding the text style "line-height:1.25em" in templates for a maximum box height of 45px. Somebody can check my hyphenation of german templates? --Pybalo 12:53, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I noted that we are missing an important detail! Please add the pagename variable to templates:

[[:Category:User xx|{{PAGENAME}}]]  [[:Category:User xx-N|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Thanks! --Pybalo 14:18, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

da-1
da-2
da-3
de-1
de-2
de-3
en-1
en-2
en-3
eo-1
eo-2
eo-3
es-1
es-2
es-3
fr-1
fr-2
fr-3
he-1
he-2
he-3
is-1
is-2
is-3
ja-1
ja-2
ja-3
nl-1
nl-2
nl-3
pl-1
pl-2
pl-3
zh-1
zh-2
zh-3
nan-1
nan-2
nan-3


Native speakersEdit

I am missing a destinction between "fluent" and "native" speakers. I'm quite fluent in english, but not nearly as good as a native speaker. So, should I list as en-2 or en-3? maybe we should create en-4 for natives, or change the text of the templates so that en-2 means "pretty good" (fluent) and en-3 means "native/perfect". What do you think? -- Duesentrieb 22:41, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Transcripting the Village pump talk
I think in 3 basic levels:
1. Basic-Elemental. Can read and understood, but writing...
2. Medium-Normal. Can read and write decently
3. Advanced. Can resolve complicated or obfuscated expressions, like a native speaker or a lingüist
What level are you? And me? I think that I am en-1 or en-2, and es-3. --Pybalo 02:27, 7 Nov 2004
I prefer your second option. I think that this categories must help to know us and be carefully about our different language skills. I think that en-3 users must be native/perfect, persons that don't have doubts writing English... After I was wrote this, I'm thinking in downgrade to me to en-1 level...;) --Pybalo 23:05, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think three levels are enough. I consider level 3 someone who can write an article in that language with only few spelling or grammar errors. Also, the levels are only used to give other users an idea about your language ability, I.e. with level 1 they can ask you questions and assume you understand what they ask, and with level 3 they can ask you for help to check a text. If you 're not sure if you're level 2 or level 3, I'd suggest you throw a coin, since practically it won't make much difference. Of course, you should give it every effort to improve your language ability, which you can practice by contributiong to wikipedia. No go write an article ;) Chris 73 23:53, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree [with the 3-level system]. Linguists who do transcriptions of everyday speech routinely find so-called grammatical errors, i.e. systematic usage of the language in a way that doe not conform to prescription (how the language ought to be used). In other words, native speakers are not necessarily "perfect" if the prescriptive norm is applied. Within Commons -- a repository of primarily non-textual elements -- communications rather than picture-perfect :) copyediting is more important. A-giâu 21:32, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Another point: as a native speaker of a language that has been slowly shifting toward another, more dominant language, I know for a fact that one's native language (first language, mother tongue) is not necessarily one's strongest language. A-giâu 21:36, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm a native German speaker, but I can read/write/speak English and French quite fluently, so I chose xx-3 for all languages. However, I agree with Duesentrieb and Pybalo that I'd rather emphasize the difference between my native language skills and the others. For example, as a professional translator, I never accept a paid job into languages other than German. On the other hand, I would have liked to include Dutch, 'cos I can read it fairly well, but I don't speak it. So, maybe four categories would be 1 reads 2 reads and speaks 3 reads, speaks and writes 4 native speaker. --wpopp 13:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

On MetaWiki you can also distinguish between xx-1 (basic), xx-2 (intermediate), xx-3 (advanced) and xx (native). I think that's pretty neat. The gap between an advanced level of language and native language might be relevant sometimes.

en This user speaks English as the first language.
en-3 This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of English.
en-2 This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of English.
en-1 This user is able to contribute with a basic level of English.


-- anon

As A-giau as already explained, a person's native language may not be his/her strongest language. My native language is Chinese, but I find reading and writing English easier and more natural. Language ability can wax and wane according to environment, and a person's native language is not immune. -- ran English talk|中文對話 18:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In any case, it seems people have been adding a lot of "native speaker" templates... without asking for consensus here. So should we adopt the 4-level system? -- ran English talk|中文對話 17:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem with this approach is that there is not a category that lists native speakers of a given language because the root category of a user language contains the users of all levels. For example, Category:User en lists not only native English speakers but also users with basic, intermediate and advance level of this language. An option is to create a new set of categories for native speakers of a given language (for example Category:User en-* or Category:User es-*) and modifying the category of the corresponding user language template. --surueña 18:59, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

I do agree that being a native speaker does not necessarily imply that one is able to read and/or write that language perfectly. However, I guess that this is not the case for most people here, but I might be wrong. The English Wikipedia now introduced categories like en:Category:user de-N for people being native speakers of the German language. They also have a category en:Category:user de" containing all people that one might think can cope with German. This would be much better than the current situation. — Richie 23:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Redundancy of categoriesEdit

Hay, those templates are neat. I love it and put them on my talk. But it is a bit redundant those templates are under two categories XX user and its subcategories XX user-somehow. Would you mind if we get rid of the former and only keep the latter subcategories?--Aphaia 15:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can live with either option. The idea of the current style is that you can see all users that have some knowledge in a language in the Category:User en, and the detailed list in Category:User en-1/2/3. Thanks for fixing the Japanese templates by the way. -- Chris 73 13:51, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
My pleasure. By the way finally we make a distinguish between level-3 speakers and native speakers? --Aphaia 17:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

subcategories at Category:User de and Category:User en etc.Edit

  • The subcategoris at at Category:User de and Category:User en are now available "from start". This is achieved via [[Category:User de|(space)de-1]].
  • Some wikipedias are using similar templates and categories. They can be linked from commons as done for sr:.
  • Template:categoryTOC has been added to categories reaching the "200 title limit". Regards Gangleri | Th | T 20:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tag for users who do not understand englishEdit

User:David.Monniaux has suggested to use Template:User en-0 to tag users who do not understand english - have a look at the discussion at the village pump. This may be useful because people often assume that people here understand enough english to react to messages left on their talk page in english. This may lead to confusion when dealing with missing copyright infos ans such. I like the idea and propose to explain this tag on the Babel page.

On a related note, I would also suggest to discuss the native-speaker tags on the Babel page. People seem to use and like them, but there are still issues with the categorization scheme.

Regards -- Duesentrieb 15:51, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

When cleaning up lots of language-0 templates created by a vandale, de: also decided to leave en-0, for users who don't understand english, since it is common to try to contact people in English, if one doesn't know the project language. --Ikar.us 12:31, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Native speaker templates broke the category systemEdit

I have only recently noticed that "native-speaker tags" were created for some languages. Although I believe it is unnecessary (I have always understood xx-3 to be "native speaker or equivalent"), I don't really have anything against it.

Should they remain, the categories need to be corrected. Currently, Template:User en inserts the page into Category:User en, while Template:User en-3 inserts the user into both Category:User en and Category:User en-3. AFAIAA, Category:User en should list all users capable of communicating in English (no matter on which level). Therefore, we have currently no easy way to find all native speakers of English, which defeats the purpose of the babel categories altogether.

I see at least three possibilities here:

  • get rid of Template:User xx and use just Template:User xx-3
  • create a new Category, e.g. Category:User en-4 and use it in Template:User en
  • reserve Category:User en for native speakers only and leave those "worse" in Category:User xx-# (a bad idea IMHO).

Ideas? --Mormegil 13:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

If you would have read some of the discussion above, you would have noticed that this was/is discussed earlier. I find a category Category:User en listing all people that can speak English to some degree, very useful. So I would introduce Category:User en-N like in en:Category:User en-N. However, there have been objections that being a native speaker does not necessarily mean that you are proficient in that language. — Richie 15:28, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
If "native speaker" automatically includes everyone raised in one of that language's countries, including people who get confused about the finicky points of grammar (such as practice/practise), maybe what we want is a better than just native category? Then again, maybe that's just what dictionaries are for.

I have read that, but it seemed to me that almost everyone was content with status quo, which I wasn't. So that I have created User xx-N categories for Czech, Slovak, and English. The English category is currently empty, since each respective user page will have to be touched for the category to update (see bugzilla:939); I have made that for cs and sk, which are small enough.

Other languages using {{User xx}} should do the same changes, IMHO. --Mormegil 14:07, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for creating these categories and "touching native speakers". I just touched all pages (i.e. users) containing Template:User en, so that they show up in Category:User en-N. I can do this for all other languages as well, since it's a bot. I'll try to introduce the category in some other languages as well. — Richie 22:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
+ de-NRichie 22:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Classical Greek UsersEdit

There are templates for Classical Greek users here. Enjoy!

Need any more help?Edit

Anyone who's read all of the above and still can't get their languages to display on all of their user-pages may try the "en" discussion, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Babel#How_to_get_it_working_on_other-language_user-pages and above it. Robin Patterson 06:45, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

People with only one languageEdit

Should people, like myself, who only speak one language add that language to their user page? It seems a bit pointless, unless a person not good at english wants me to check their spelling/grammar. Borb 26 June 2005 14:35 (UTC)

Yes, why not ? Yann 4 July 2005 17:33 (UTC)

language code for tamilEdit

There is no language code for tamil. How can I contribute for the language strings for tamil. Viyyer 3 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)

They don't exist yet, but go ahead:
ta

,

ta-1

,

ta-2

,

ta-3

. See also Template:Babel ta. Yann 4 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)

ndsEdit

Hi! I tried to put in a new template for babel nds-1. - I am sorry to say, that I am stuck with it... Could someone please take a look at it ? - If you look here Category:User nds-1 you will see, that the template is been linked instead of the user... Thanks for looking! --Sputnik 15:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone must have fixed something. Even the first version of Sputnik's user page looks OK now: http://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruker:Sputnik&diff=prev&oldid=23328
Robin Patterson 10:07:53, 2005-08-13 (UTC)

English equivalent page now has FOUR numbered levelsEdit

I don't know who agreed to it (though I imagine it is obvious to someone who reads the right one or more of two million WP page histories). I see the idea of a xx-4 level (meaning "native") was suggested on this talk page last year by User:Duesentrieb. The consensus of discussion then was that three were enough. Soon, however, it was reported that Meta had introduced a "native" category (right from its first appearance in February). I guess any of you who are interested have caught up with that development.

People who were wondering whether they should be "native" or "3" may now have to rethink, if the definitions have changed to allow for the insertion of "xx-4".

This whole idea originated here on Commons. Should we be pressing to have this wiki once again recognised as the "authoritative" discussion and policy wiki for the subject, so that we don't get another Tower of Babel with users copying different templates in the mistaken belief that they mean the same as others that look the same?

Robin Patterson 09:56:10, 2005-08-13 (UTC)

Well, we do have four levels. {{User en-1}}, {{User en-2}}, {{User en-3}}, and {{User en}}. I see someone independently created {{User en-4}}, which I'm about to go redirect. dbenbenn | talk 19:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Transfering Babel to another wikipediaEdit

Hi, I'd like to bring the Babel system into hr.wikipedia.org, they don't use the system at all right now - how exactly can I do that, without creating all templates anew? I mean, they're all the same in all languages, as the sentence is in the target-language anyway. Can someone help me? --212.201.78.192 17:21, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

You have to copy the templates. There's no other way. dbenbenn | talk 19:36, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

User madEdit

Does anyone mind if I create the Mad Scientist template, like there is on Wikipedia? --Freiberg, Let's talk!, contribs 22:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Removing argument numberEdit

It's not clear to me which is the source version of this idea, En: or Commons, so I'll add the announcement here as well: I backported to En: the version of Babel used on Fy:. This version has the advantage that there's no need to add the number of arguments to the template name. See en:Wikipedia talk:Babel for details. Is there any interest in this improvement? Aliter 22:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can see, several of the "Babel" of templates being used already do without the "number" thing and have been doing so for months. Retaining it is a nuisance for people who decide to add or remove a language. I hope the most up-to-date versions can manage without it. Robin Patterson 12:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Babel on MetaEdit

(Shouldn't Babel be on Meta, it being a multilingual issue? Aliter 22:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC))

It was copied to Meta:Meta:Babel templates three months after being invented here, with the following paragraph acknowledging its origin:
This attempt was started on Wikimedia Commons and this page incorporates a copy of 01:31, 11 Feb 2005 revision of Commons:Commons:Babel. The follwing Commons users contributed to that page: A-giâu, Aurevilly, Biekko, Briséis, Chris 73, Christian List, Dbenbenn, Farside, Guillermo Romero, Javier Carro, Kjell André, Nadavspi, Mschlindwein, Paginazero, Pybalo, Rui Malheiro, Shizhao, WeFt, Wikibob, Xillimiandus and some anoymous contributors.
Don't look for it on Meta:Babel or try to find it by entering "babel" in the search box and hitting "Go" - that redirects at present to meta:Meta:Babel, the village pump or coffeebar or watercooler.
Meta is for discussion of WikiMedia, whereas Commons is meant to be a source for all of WikiMedia and other MediaWiki sites. I stick to my opinion that this should try to have the latest version and be the standard. Maybe there are readers who know sufficiently more than I do to point out flaws in my thesis (but have not said anything here in the 4 months since I suggested it): if so, please speak up so that we make the best decision. Robin Patterson

Interproject policy proposalEdit

I have drafted a proposal for an interproject Babel template standard at meta:Interproject Babel template standardization (proposal). Please review the proposal and improve and/or comment on it. —Ilmari Karonen 17:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! I have looked at it. Excellent work. Robin Patterson 04:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew boxesEdit

I hope no one would get mad at me =)
I took the liberty to edit the babel boxes and categories for the hebrew languagem by using hebrew-enligh:

he
he-4
he-3
he-2
he-1
he-0

Yuval Y 17:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it seems that I was the only one who made bilingual template, I've removed the english part. Oh well...
Yuval Y 17:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Name of category 4Edit

In many languages, there are only descriptions for category 1-3. I myself have realise that it's difficult to translate "at a native level". I propose to replace it with "perfect" which is basically the same, but makes translations easier and might show the difference between N and 4 a tiny bit better.


Use the following templates on your user page:

  • {{user en}} This user is a native English speaker.
  • {{user en-4}} This user speaks perfect English. (This user speaks English at a native level.)
  • {{user en-3}} This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of English.
  • {{user en-2}} This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of English.
  • {{user en-1}} This user is able to contribute with a basic level of English.
  • {{user en-0}} This person does not understand English.--Joschi 23:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Ascending/DescendingEdit

On the Meta the whole thing is native language-ascending. Here it is the other way round. And the complete Layout is different. Shouldn't we make them similar somehow?--Joschi 14:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Please join this Discussion on the Meta project.


Category of BabelEdit

Isn't the Babel page rather a help page than a maintenance page? I would move it to Category:Commons help. I already deleted it from the Category:Users, because it is not a user page. Kind of regards --Godai2 14:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Updating Babel section & infosEdit

Hi! I'm a new Wikipedian, neophyte with wiki tags/syntax.

As i was trying to start creating my own user page by adding userboxes, i've searched for wiki syntax. I came across various help & reference pages about userbox syntax & "parameters" (languages & level) in [Babel]. This was quite confusing, as copying the syntax did not seem to work. And then i've searched anew (before i did end up "bookmarking/favoriting" the reference pages), and came upon contradicting infos & pages with partial infos! (I came upon a userbox directory that had links to non-iso language "tags" & parameters, and many other userbox categories, but it did not contain any link to languages).

It does seem like a lot of redundant info is classified in various "categories" / directories, yet some of them are less complete or outdated. An example of the latter: "{{}}Babel|language-level{{}}" tag is now deprecated from server warnings! (I've closed brackets so no userbox would be created on this talk page.) Not to mention that its syntax in seems to be lacking the "user" portion. It should be complete, as such: "{{}}user language|user's language|level{{}}" or else specifying that "babelold" might be used instead of "Babel" or "language". Francsois (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Add Papiamento languageEdit

Can someone please add papiamento to the list (pap)? Richardprins (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Just grab a set of working templates with five levels xxx, xxx-4, xxx-3, xxx-2, xxx-1 (for the basic version, xxx-0 is optional, while xxx-5 or xxx-N are IMO bad ideas). Rename xxx to pap, fix the text to papiamento, then create the five (or six) pap-templates. The procedure is explained on the project page, please check that first. I was stupid enough to try this for tlh-0 using als as my reference. Expect about one hour of work until you are satisfied with the result. — Be..anyone (talk) 01:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Please add tlhEdit

Please add [[m:History_of_the_Klingon_Wikipedia|tlh]] after [[:tl|tl]] to be rendered as tlh. — Be..anyone (talk) 01:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC) {{edit request}}

✓ Done --Mormegil (talk) 10:30, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. It is by far not the worst "officially ISO registered" language tag, but enough as bad example. -Be..anyone (talk) 00:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Extension:BabelEdit

Extension:Babel is now live on all WMF projects. It is intended to replace the extensive ecosystem of {{Babel}} templates. Usage: eg {{#babel:nl|en-4|de-2|fr-1}}. The extension effectively makes Commons:Babel redundant; redlinked templates listed there are now not needed if #babel: is used. Rd232 (talk) 22:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Just for fun I tested s/babel|/#babel:/ on my page, and it worked "as expected".  Actually I expected it to fail for tlh‑0 (obscure language) and BG‑1 (no language at all, not the same as bg‑1), but it worked.  Maybe a bot could now replace Template:Babel on all user pages, FWIW. –Be..anyone (talk) 20:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

#babel malfunctionEdit

For years (?), months (?), weeks (?) #babel: worked for me, including {{User BG-1}}. Suddenly I get {{User bg-1}}. Switching back to {{babel}}, the extension is too fragile. The template also displays {{User tlh-0}} as expected; the extension showed only an English version of my Klingon gibberish. –Be..anyone (talk) 02:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

This issue is caused by or related to the creation of Category:User BG, now listed on Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2014/01 and its subpage Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2014/01/Category:User_BG. The research took less than 24 hours :-( –Be..anyone (talk) 12:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Missing languagesEdit

Even if many languages are there, I miss some languages in which Wikipedia exists and which I like to add. For example Northern Saami and Lower Saxonian. How can new languages be added with an appropriate code?--Laplandgerard (talk) 11:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

{{babel}} does not support that many languages but Babel Extension can handle over 7.7k languages with ISO 639-1 code or ISO 639-3 codes. However I did not see those 2 on the list. I do not think we are planning to go beyond that list, so you might want to add those by writing a note on your user page. That way others can search for it. --Jarekt (talk) 17:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I think lower saxonian is nds (nd is an abbreviation of German nieder, that is lower.) I have it on my user page (with #babel again, I'm not sure why Jarekt fixed it to Template:Babel, apparently both work as expected even for nds and BG). –Be..anyone (talk) 09:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Be..anyone, I guess you are referring to this edit. You are correct a that {{#babel:de|en-3|nds-1|fr-1|tlh-0|BG-1}} and {{Babel|de|en-3|nds-1|fr-1|tlh-0|BG-1}} do produce similar results now. I no longer remember what I was "fixing" but according to the edit note I was under impression I was undoing edit done by my bot. As I recall it {{Babel}} and {{#babel}} did not always have the same outputs and there were some bug reports to make {{#babel}} case sensitive. At some point there was a push to retire {{Babel}} and I run a bot job to change many simple {{Babel}}s to {{#babel}}, I think I was under impression I was undoing that edit for cases where output of {{#babel}} differ from that of {{Babel}}. Sorry about it. --Jarekt (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I guessed that after I found old (2012) reports where #babel: failed. Your undo bot run wasn't prepared for pages where it had never done anything. :-) –Be..anyone (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Why can not I find the list of languages ​​Erzya? He is on the list. ISO 639-2: myv, ISO 639-3:myv Thank you for your help. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 07:09, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request to add ArpitanEdit

{{editrequest}} Please add {{Babel frp}}. Thanks. Mapeh (talk) 12:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

 Not done this template is used for historical reasons. Please use {{#babel:frp}}

--Jarekt (talk) 03:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Avar languageEdit

There is not a category for avar (av) in Babel. Please, add this language who could. --Gazimagomedov (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

@Gazimagomedov: Could you please add the translations here: Template:Babel av? Regards, Yann (talk) 17:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
There is no need for Template:Babel av since it is used by {{babel}} which is mostly kept for historical reasons. New users should use {{#babel:av}} which is already translated.
Babel user information
Users by language

--Jarekt (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2014 (UTC)