Talk:Sweetest Day

The Herbert Birch Kingston US Census Forms

I removed the HBK census forms. This is off topic, unless of course you are trying to use it as evidence of something... in which case it is original research.

• Isotope23 if you continue to vandalize this page you will be reported. This is a warning. Miracleimpulse 21:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry Miracle, but removal of a section that is off topic to Sweetest Day (Census Forms) and a bit of editorialising on your part isn't vandalism; it's you trying to insert more original research and avoid being caught doing by sneaking it in on Commons. If you want to report me, by all means do so.--Isotope23 02:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Isotope23 Herbert Birch Kingston is the central figure in industry's promotion of Sweetest Day. Amazingly, almost no information exists about who Herbert Birch Kingston really was. These US Census forms are key to understanding that Herbert Birch Kingston was an advertiser up until 1920 at least. To say that they are off topic is ridiculous. Instead of constantly deleting information about Sweetest Day, why don't you add something for a change? Miracleimpulse 03:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Which pretty much confirms what I said above, you are simply adding this as an attempt to insert more of your original research... you're just using Commons to do it now. Whether or not Kingston was an advertiser is completely irrelevant to a gallery of newspaper images concerning the first two Sweetest Days celebrated in Cleveland.--Isotope23 02:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Isotope23 US Census forms in no way constitute original research. They are a matter of public record and are posted here in the public interest. I have made no statements in regard to the census forms, other than that they appear to have been overwritten at some point. Let readers decide for themselves what they mean. In the meantime, you have added nothing to this page or the wikipedia article; all you do is delete relevant information and maintain the verisimilitudes contained in the article, which makes the article more of an industry promotional tool than a comprehensive account of how Sweetest Day really got it's start. Why don't you post a photo of Herbert Birch Kingston or any article from the 1920's which link him to the origins of Sweetest Day in any way. Why didn't Hallmark or American Greetings ever reference Herbert Birch Kingston in regards to Sweetest Day while he was still alive? Why didn't they snap even one single photo of him giving someone a box of candy? Gosh, they've made hundreds of millions of dollars using his name to promote Sweetest Day. Doesn't that seem a little odd? Miracleimpulse 04:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The original research is that you are imbuing some kind of meaning into the fact that this guy is an advertiser as if there is some kind of nefarious connection that fact and his involvement with Sweetest Day. Yes, this is a census form, and that is public information. But the meaning you are attaching to it is your original research. Not a dog 15:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• I noticed that there is a WikiCommons category entitled US Census. I have added this category to the Herbert Birch Kingston files. Miracleimpulse 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• • This discussion about the Herbert Birch Kingston US Census forms has caused me to think about what happened to these images on Wikipedia. At one point these images were edited into the Sweetest Day article only to be removed repeatedly by Isotope23 and other editors. We also discussed them at some length on the Sweetest Day talk page. Ultimately these high-resolution census forms were deleted entirely from the Wikipedia database. If memory serves me, these images were deleted without a nomination for deletion or a debate pertaining to that nomination. Isotope23, as a freshly-certified Wikipedia admin, perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to why these images were deleted without nomination or debate from the Wikipedia database. If I am mistaken in my recollection of what happened, please link us up to the nomination and the ensuing debate on the deletion of these images at Wikipedia. Or were they just deleted on the sly with a host of other images? Please let us see who nominated them for deletion, and who actually deleted the images from the Wikipedia database. Thanks Isotope23! Miracleimpulse 08:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have the links or titles for those images? If I recall, they were speedy deleted in accordance with the deletion policy as either orphans or low quality images. Not a dog 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Image:KINGSTON 1910.jpg, Image:KINGSTON 1920.jpg and Image:KINGSTON 1930.jpg. The images were neither orphans nor low quality. They were high-resolution census forms which were involved in a content dispute. There was no nomination for deletion, nor was there an ensuing debate. With that in mind Isotope23, why did they disappear from Wikipedia and who deleted them? Miracleimpulse 20:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just looking at a random one's deletion log [1], it looks like it was deleted by User:JzG. Perhaps you should ask him/her. You can look at deletion log for any deleted file, btw, and find out who deleted it. Can even ask for a deletion review if you wanted to. But none of that is relevant here, actually. Not a dog 03:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Here is the deletion log. Note that the Herbert Birch Kingston files are not listed among the 25 other Sweetest Day images which were deleted. Talk about suppression and management of information. All of the images which were deleted were involved in the content dispute, and for that reason should not have been deleted. Some pretty biased POV editing going on there in my opinion. Miracleimpulse 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That is not the deletion log, but the recorded discussion of deletion of other images. Like I said above, looks like JzG deleted the files in question, so you should ask him/her about it, or open a deletion review. Regardless, it isn't relevant here, so discussion on this space should probably cease. --Not a dog 22:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The discussion here is completely relevant since there seems to be an obsession with keeping these census forms from public view. Miracleimpulse 22:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I doubt anyone wants to ban them from public views - rather, we have requirements for the kind of media that should be stored on Wikimedia's servers. I believe you have your own server space where these images already reside, no? That's public, right? --Not a dog 01:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge all of the images contained in this gallery, including the HBK Census forms, exist nowhere else on the internet or in any book anywhere. Many thanks to The Cleveland Public Library Microform Center for making these high-resolution digital scans available to everyone! Miracleimpulse 01:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikimedia commons is not meant to be free webspace. If they're deemed inappropriate to be here, just put them on your own website. Not a dog 03:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion Not a dog...why don't you stop stalking me around the internet! Miracleimpulse 05:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You're the one who pointed us to that discussion forum on wikipedia. I just followed your link . Not a dog 15:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Back to Not a dog version

Once again, as Not a dog pointed out above having the census forms for Herbert Birch Kingston here is either original research with Miracleimpulse posting these here as a suggestion of some sort of nefarious connection or it is completely irrelevant and off topic to an article on Sweetest Day. If Miracleimpulse wants to start a "Herbert Birch Kingston" Wikicommons gallery then he should by all means do so, but that information adds nothing of value here.--Isotope23 14:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to add, such an addition is inappripriate since this isn't even the place for making such an argument or assertion, even if properly sourced. This is a commons gallery - no more, no less. Not a dog 06:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

HBK US Census Forms Debate

Here are the Herbert Birch Kingston Cuyahoga County Ohio US Census forms currently being debated for inclusion in this image gallery:

• This Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form dated 1910 lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation as Advertiser.
  This Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form dated 1910 lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation as Advertiser.
• This Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation in 1920 as Advertiser.
  This Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation in 1920 as Advertiser.
• This 1930 Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation as proprietor (owner) of a confectionery. Note how some of the information appears to have been overwritten.
  This 1930 Cuyahoga County, Ohio US Census form lists Herbert Birch Kingston's occupation as proprietor (owner) of a confectionery. Note how some of the information appears to have been overwritten.
• This highlighted section of Herbert Birch Kingston's 1930 Cuyahoga County, Ohio, US Census Form shows changes made at some point to Mr. Kingston's occupation and employment status.
  This highlighted section of Herbert Birch Kingston's 1930 Cuyahoga County, Ohio, US Census Form shows changes made at some point to Mr. Kingston's occupation and employment status.

Reasons in favor of their inclusion are as follows:

• 1) The census forms confirm the existence of Herbert Birch Kingston as a resident of Cuyahoga County Ohio in 1910, 1920 and 1930.

• 2) The census forms give historical information on Mr. Kingston such as family members, his employment, and whether or not there was a mortgage on his home.

• 3) Herbert Birch Kingston is the central figure in industry's promotional event called "Sweetest Day".

• 4) Virtually no other sourced information on Mr. Kingston exists anywhere on the internet.

• 5) Census forms in no way constitute WP:OR original research: they are public domain US Government documents.

• 6) The census forms confirm Mr. Kingston's age.

• 7) The census forms confirm that Mr. Kingston had a wife, Bessie.

• 8) The census forms indicate that Mr. Kingston had 2 children, a son, Larry, and a daughter, Janet.

• 9) The census forms indicate that Mr. Kingston's mother-in-law, Jennie M. Nutting, lived with the Kingston family.

• 10) The census forms indicate that Mr. Kingston had another daughter, Muriel.

• 11) The census forms indicate the ages of all family members.

• 12) The census forms indicate the place of birth of all family members.

• 13) The census forms indicate whether or not family members spoke English.

• 14) The census forms do not propose a new synthesis of Sweetest Day, since Sweetest Day is already widely considered to be a made-up or "Hallmark Holiday." Other writers have referred to Sweetest Day as a ploy and a concocted promotion.

• 15) Mr. Kingston's US Census form for 1930 has obviously been altered at some point regarding his employment status.

• 16) The census forms indicate that a mortgage was in place on Mr. Kingston's home.

In short, these US Census forms give much historical data about the man credited by industry as being the creator of Sweetest Day. A google search for Herbert Birch Kingston reveals over 175,000 hits. Sweetest Day is now a multi-billion-dollar annual promotional event sponsored by industry. These census forms are posted in the public interest. Let readers decide for themselves their significance to the origins of Sweetest Day. Miracleimpulse 21:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"these US Census forms give much historical data about the man credited by industry as being the creator of Sweetest Day"' - if these forms have biographical value, then they could possibly belong in a biographical gallery/article about that person. But they add little to a gallery about Sweetest Day itself. For example, your points 6-13 above have absolutely nothing to do with Sweetest Day. No reason to have these as part of this particular gallery - just more of Robb's POV pushing that he's moved here from Wikipedia. Not a dog 17:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Even points 1-5 & 14-16 have nothing to do with Sweetest Day. As Not a dog this is not the place to push POV. Kingston's existence is not in question. Whether he had family members and a mortgage is irrelevant. Point 3 I find especially amusing since you've devoted so much time to debunking that idea. The fact that their is little information about him is irrelevant. Nobody is suggesting the census forms themselves are original research, but you included them in the Wikipedia article to push the idea that Kingston was not involved in the creation of Sweetest Day and presumably you've included them here to get around the fact they were rejected for inclusion in the article. Whether or not they've been altered is irrelevant, as is the mortgage. I've said it before and I'll say it again. These have nothing to do with Sweetest Day. They should be in a Kingston Gallery.--Isotope23 02:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have never said that Herbert Birch Kingston had no role in the creation of Sweetest Day. The fact that he was an advertiser in 1920 indicates that he may have been a planner. However, there is zero confirmation anywhere that he was involved in any way. There is zero confirmation that Mr. Kingston ever gave a single box of candy to anyone. News articles confirm that the candy was supplied by candy makers not by Mr. Kingston. The fact that a mortgage was in place on Mr. Kingston's property indicates that he may not have been the philanthropist which current industry promotions characterize him to have been. My creation of this gallery has nothing whatsoever to do with POV-pushing. All images are presented in an NPOV fashion and they are here to promote discussion and to act as a foundation for the construction of a balanced and comprehensive article about Sweetest Day at Wikipedia. The HBK census forms are totally appropriate in this gallery, as would be a photo of Mr. Kingston if one existed. The census forms are like a snapshot of Mr. Kingston's life and family. They offer insight into his occupation and activities in the years prior to and after the first Sweetest Day. Attempts to block these census forms or place them in another gallery are nothing more than information management and suppression. Miracleimpulse 17:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Editorializing

I've removed original research commentary by Miracleimpulse twice now. This space is not for editorializing or espousing theories about Sweetest Day. He was banned from editing these articles on Wikipedia for POV-pushing, and not bringing it here. Please stop. Not a dog 01:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• I simply pointed out that the current Sweetest Day article at Wikipedia links to a fake story about Herbert Birch Kingston in 9 places. It's odd that you have a problem with my pointing it out, and very odd that you have no problem with Wikipdeia linking to a fake story in 9 places. Miracleimpulse 01:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You posted an editorializing essay, which is not what Commons is for. Not a dog 02:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)