Last modified on 27 May 2015, at 16:39

User talk:Ellin Beltz

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  • Medieval Wisdom

You can please some of the people all of the time,

you can please all of the people some of the time,
but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
John Lydgate (1370–1449) source: BBC




Questions about why your image is nominated for deletion?Edit

Licensing tutorial en.svg



  • Read image first! ... Then read COM:L
  • Reply on the deletion nomination page, not a discussion page.
  • Replies left here have no effect on deletion nominations.

Please note that none of the following claims are valid license justifications:

  1. I own the copyrighted © website from which the image/s was/were copied but can't file an OTRS;
  2. I have the same user name as a copyrighted website, but I can't send an email from that address.
  3. I am the official representative of the owner of a website whether personal or corporate;
  4. I own entire pages, or clippings from, newspapers and periodicals;
  5. I own/or was given a print/or electronic version of the image;
  6. I own this original piece of art;
  7. I paid for this image or portrait so I own the copyright;
  8. I am one of many heirs of the subject of an image;
  9. I think I am the owner via a long shaggy-dog story;
  10. I have permission to use this photograph from family album or other private source;
  11. I am putting up publicity photos;
  12. I think this picture really belongs on the project - without it the article won't be the same;
  13. I have permission to use this photograph from the web regardless of © or no © on the pages;
  14. I am the creator of professional images up to and including Getty and Reuters files labeled ©;
  15. I have really long arms and can take selfies from 100 feet away;
  16. I only copied part of this image from somewhere else;
  17. I don't remember where I got the image;
  18. I have no idea who created the image;
  19. I was given permission to use this picture on Wikipedia;

However, ... if you think you really do have permission despite the above, there are ways to work within the system to discuss it. Please leave a message on my talk page, including the file name of the image which was nominated or deleted.

You uploaded what to where? Oh mai!
Can I help you fix it?
Don't worry... Whatever it is, we can handle it!

-- see archives for earlier correspondence - please leave messages at bottom of this page.


Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Алексей КебадзеEdit

Dear Ellin Beltz!

You presented on deleted a few files high-usage an user by Алексей Кебадзе. It is illustrations to the articles:

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Славороссов,_Харитон_Никанорович
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Грацианов,_Александр_Алексеевич

These articles tell about my native grandfather and native great-grandfather. Materials the user to Алексей Кебадзе are passed to by me. I ask you to give help in correct licensing of these files:

  • File:Slavorossova-1.jpg This my own poem, it is written in 2010. "Cafe "Rotunda" In summer 1914" is this name of poem, but not date of creation.

All photos from my personal archive are done in a period from 1911 to 1922.

With kind regards Евгения Славороссова.--Евгения Славороссова (talk) 14:37, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Greetings Евгения Славороссова : The way to fix the problem is to take what you wrote here and put it on the deletion nomination page Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Алексей Кебадзе. The issue is that the licenses put on the pictures imply SELF made images which these obviously are not - they are mostly too old for you to be the original creator! "From personal archive" does not mean ownership of copyright. We need to know who created the images, not merely the date of the image. But please, reply over there at Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Алексей Кебадзе., where the entire community can help get this as right as it ever will be. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Мне хотелось бы задать вопрос, каким образом я должна доказать право собственности на справку о реабилитации своего деда, репрессированного в ГУЛАГе File:Справка 1.jpg 1963 original from my personal archive., на его автограф и любительские фотографии деда и прадеда (1911-1922), всегда хранившиеся в моей семье и которые по моей доброй воле предоставлялись для научных и исторических публикаций безвозмездно.


Greetings Евгения Славороссова : Комментарии, как это и просьбы о помощи должны быть оставлены на Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Алексей Кебадзе странице. Спасибо! Ellin Beltz (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC) English: Comments like this and requests for help need to be left at the deletion nomination page. Thanks! I hope Google translate did ok with all the Cyrillic characters!

Deleted Image File:Confronto_Kouroi_giganti.jpgEdit

Hi Ellin Beltz,

The image was created by me, by combining photos of the statues of the giants of Mount Prama, (uploaded by me on Wikicommons) and photos of the statues Kouroi, already used in the pages dedicated to Kouroi (also uploaded on Wikicommons). Therefore, I can not understand why the puzzle has been canceled.

[[1]] Thank you, best regards --DedaloNur (talk) 10:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi DedaloNur: The problem was that you knew all that but you didn't put any of it on the upload form which read: {{Information|description={{it|1=Confronto stilistico e strutturale tra Kouroi e Giganti}}|date=2015-05-01|source={{own}}|author=DedaloNur|permission=self|cc-by-sa-4.0|other versions=}}</nowiki>. And the collage was obviously not own work. So please take your request to COM:UNDEL and ask that the file be restored? I was not the deleting editor and I don't want to override their deletion without consultation. Thank you! Ellin Beltz (talk) 01:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Name ChangeEdit

File:Amaryllis cultivars photo D Ramey Logan.jpg should be named "File:Hippeastrum by D Ramey Logan.jpg" can you correct it? Thank you. --WPPilot (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

✓ Done :) Ellin Beltz (talk) 01:06, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you once again, I have no idea how I did this next one.

File:Pilatus PC 12 N983CH by D Ramey Logan.jpg should be named Miami North Beach Waterway by D Ramey Logan.jpg. Thumbnails were not working and I titled the wrong picture :) Thank you!!! --WPPilot (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) ✓ Done. Green Giant (talk) 22:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you (talk page stalker) @Green Giant: - --WPPilot (talk) 23:18, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Fotos borradas de Azi_Wolfenson_UlanowskiEdit

Estimado Sr. Ellin Beltz

Tengo varias fotos propuestas para borrado como podrá observar en mi pagina de discución https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Edwinjcb.

Le agradecería revisar estas observaciones, las fotos se las solicite al Sr. Azi Wolfenson quien muy amablemente me las envió vía correo electrónico. El autorizo el uso de estas fotos mediante un documento firmado el cual fue enviado a permissions-commons-es@wikimedia.org

Le agradecería me indicara como poner el tipo de licencia en las fotos, así como también, como puedo hacerle llegar este documento de autorización.

Como vera están borrando fotos familiares las cuales el es su único propietario, por eso pido reconsiderar el borrado de estas.

Gracias por su colaboracion

--Edwinjcb (talk) 15:18, 19 May 2015 (UTC) edwinjcb

Hi Edwinjcb : Esas diversas propuestas de eliminación fueron puestos allí por el usuario Jameslwoodward; probablemente sería mejor para incluir él en la discusión aquí. Those various deletion proposals were put there by user Jameslwoodward; it would probably be best to include him in the discussion here. Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:59, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't think he heard either of you, probably because his username is Jameslwoodward ie lower-case lw. Green Giant (talk) 23:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Green Giant It was only me who mistyped, thanks for the headsup !! Ellin Beltz (talk) 00:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Two comments -- first, discussion of the Deletion Requests should take place on the DR pages, not here. Second, (ignoring my first comment), the problem here is that Mr. Wolfensohn probably has no right to license these images. Owning a copy of a photograph does not give you the right to freely license it any more than owning a copy of a book gives you the right to license it. .     Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 09:44, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

In the photos proposed for deletion are included family photos that certainly are owned by Mr. Wolfenson. We fully understand that having a photo gives no right but owning it maybe it does, specially if they have been taken by close members of his family like wife, father and son.

For example there is a photo of Mr. Wolfenson which was deleted and he tells me that it was taken some 30 years ago for his passport. The way it was taken was in a special boot that was at the Luzern railway station where for 10 Swiss Francs you had the chance to choose from 4 samples one picture and you pressed a button and you got 6 copies of the same. All the process was done by yourself. In this case it was qualified by your staff as a studio photo. Who has the right to the photo? The machine who does not exist any longer as Passport photos are today taken at the Office that delivers them? Or they belong to Mr. Wolfenson who managed the whole process and pressed the button himself?

Anyway I would like to know how I could mail you the letter of authorization from Mr. Wolfenson according to the details and sample of the photos he already mailed to Mr. Toni Desplà and how do I have to change the code to indicate to whom belong the photos. --Edwinjcb (talk) 21:24, 20 May 2015 (UTC) edwinjcb

Hi Edwinjcb : Is there some particular reason you can't follow the link to your [Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Edwinjcb] and comment over there? Jim was the nominator, but for some reason you're on my talk page with questions that are easily answered by the community at the Deletion Nomination to which you've been pointed from your talk page, suggested you visit by Jim and now - please - take your comments over there? For whatever authorization your friend is able to send, that goes though COM:OTRS. Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I say again, Ellin has it right. This whole discussion should take place on the DR pages.
Also again, owning a copy of a photograph does not make you the owner of the copyright, even if it is the only copy. If Mr. Wolfenson can prove -- not merely state, but prove beyond a significant doubt -- that any of the photographs were taken by people for whom he is the heir, and therefore is the copyright owner, then they can be kept on Commons. However, proving the the history of family album photographs is hard. .     Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 10:08, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

About deleted image from Facundo Cañada and his date of deathEdit

Hi Ellin. The source for the year of death of Facundo Cañada, 1913, is the monographic website by his grandson, J.A. Cañada. [[2]]. Lironcareto (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Lironcareto: I put the link on File:Plano_detalle_1906.JPG. You can edit too! Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

File SuperSikhCover.jpg restorationEdit

Hi Ellin, I just noticed that you deleted the file SuperSikhCover.jpg. This was not a copyright violation as you may have think. This upload is part of the project of creating a Wikipedia page on the subject itself. The rightful copyright owner of this image had in fact sent a message with the release license to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org. I have attempted to display the appropriate code {{OTRS pending}} in the license section during the upload of the image but it seems like I have been a little slow to learn and act. I will appreciate if you could restore this image that have been deleted so fast? Thank you for your understanding. Valenciatist (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Valenciatist : When the COM:OTRS admins get to that part of their pile of correspondence they are able to restore the image. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:43, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Ellin, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am a little surprised by this procedure. I thought the image could stay in Commons until the OTRS ticket is assigned and not the other way around. I am afraid this process could take several weeks as the queue is significantly long. As the person who deleted the image, could you please do something in the mean time? I appreciate your cooperation. Thanks Valenciatist (talk) 00:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Valenciatist : I don't have OTRS permissions to read the queue. And just being in the line doesn't mean the application is/ will be complete and I have no way to predict. So to protect your friend's copyright, the image is merely hidden at this time. When/if OTRS is achieved (and I only say If because my Acme Magic Future-Predicting Orb Model 2013-0915 is in the shop for repairs atm), the image can/will be restored by those editors you won't have to do a thing to bring it back. At the time the image was removed, there was no permission from the creator of the obviously professional image. The whole point of the process is to protect the creator's copyrights. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 02:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Emanuel LeplinEdit

I would like to extend my deepest acknowledgement to you, and to the other Wikipedians, who removed every single photo of this composer-painter and every single oil painting and watercolor photo executed by this composer-painter, that I placed there, even though my family has had all of these photos in our possession for as long ago as 65 years; no one has claimed them; no evidence exists that we do not own them. You have all single-handedly ripped a year out of my life; it took me a year to learn enough about Wikipedia and locate all of the sources to create the article. Yes, I'm the one who is alleged to have been "too close" to the subject, even though it has (currently) 59 real citations from secondary sources. The only questionable source could be the San Francisco History Center at the San Francisco Public Library. Yes, I created this archive, and the History Center has accepted everything I've given them over the years. It can be imagined that there is no secondary source in any of the relevant citations, because the media involved came from me. However, the media involved consists entirely of secondary sources: mainly original articles from papers such as the San Francisco Chronicle, the San Francisco Examiner, the San Francisco News-Call, the San Mateo Times, the Palo Alto Times, the New York Times and the Washington Post. Also: letters from Leonard Bernstein and Pierre Monteux, and photos of nearly all of his paintings. Emanuel Leplin was well-known in the Bay Area, but he died before he could reach a larger audience. His career was not killed by polio, but he was killed because of having been paralyzed by polio, and, based upon observations of many Wikipedia articles about famous composers and painters, Wikipedia is rampant with photos of artists and paintings whose sources are easily as speculative as those that were in the article I wrote—the difference being that they did not have polio, and did not die too soon. The placement of the painting photos was called "indiscriminate." Every one of them illuminated the subject, and contributed to people's awareness of Leplin's output and genius. And this does not have to be considered with a jaundiced eye because I am his son; cited secondary sources universally extolled the value of Emanuel Leplin's life and works. This is not my biased opinion; anyone who reads the article will see that it's a fact. If anyone is biased, it's Wikipedia: in favor of the famous and celebrated, and dismissive—obviously—of those who are not.

It's stated that I'm "too close" to the subject. It is those who are closest to the subject who can be relied on to offer the most information about the subject, and instead of being rejected because of proximity, should be rewarded for their efforts to bring the subject alive, and help make Wikipedia the true all-embracing reference it believes itself to be. Somewhere, I heard that a picture is worth a thousand words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rleplin (talk • contribs)

Greetings Rleplin : I am assuming you are writing me in reference to:
  1. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Gondola in Napa River.jpeg
  2. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Carmel Valley.png
  3. Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Rleplin
The last group were nominated as "Modern art and historical photos. I think painter/heirs identity/permission confirmation via COM:OTRS is necessary." And yes, that is correct, so I deleted the image files. At least one of the painters died in 1972, not long enough for their work to be public domain. Additionally, other images were of the artists without any mention who took the photograph. Owning a copy of an image is not the same thing as owning copyright even if you've owned it for a long time. The copyright remains with the creator. The remainer of your complaints about the "wikipedians" etc. here, are really not relevant here on Commons - we're a separate project. The issue here is who has the copyright to the images because Commons cannot free-host unfree work. Please read COM:L for enlightenment. As for "too close to the topic", the admins here at Commons had nothing to do with that, but I think anyone looking at the edit page history of Emanuel_Leplin could easily see that a Rleplin editing on an Emanuel Leplin page might be too close to the subject. That's covered in the Wikipedia guidelines. Wikipedia is a separate project from Commons, and while photos may be worth 1000 words, copyright violations are not able to be hosted on the project. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 02:39, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

crat candidatureEdit

Dear Ellin Beltz. Your name has been mentioned at the Bureaucrats' noticeboard. Please let me know if you are available for a crat candidature. Thank you. --Krd 07:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Krd, I am honored. I read the page several times just now and understand (in general) the tasks. Ellin Beltz (talk) 07:33, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Jee 10:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
I would be pleased to see you stand. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I would support you becoming a bureaucrat. English Wikipedia is a project of similar size and complexity, with 30+ bureaucrats, 40+ check-users and 50+ oversighters, some of whom are inactive. I'm not suggesting similar numbers for Commons but it would be useful to have at least double digits for each group. Green Giant (talk) 15:49, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see: Commons:Bureaucrats/Requests/Ellin Beltz --Krd 00:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

FP PromotionEdit

2013 Ahmanson Cup Regatta yacht Zapata II b photo D Ramey Logan - edit.jpg
This image has been promoted to Featured picture!

The image File:2013 Ahmanson Cup Regatta yacht Zapata II b photo D Ramey Logan - edit.jpg, that you nominated on Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:2013 Ahmanson Cup Regatta yacht Zapata II b photo D Ramey Logan.jpg has been promoted. Thank you for your contribution. If you would like to nominate another image, please do so.

Cscr-featured.svg

/FPCBot (talk) 13:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

My first commons featured photo! Thank you Ellin...--WPPilot (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Fireworks.jpg
Congratulations to both photographer and nominator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Green Giant (talk • contribs)
Thanks!! It was an interesting experience. I don't take anything anywhere good enough for that, but perhaps some of mine can be something else, I'd like a blue ribbon or two for my pictures. Face-wink.svg Ellin Beltz (talk) 01:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Another Nomination?Edit

South Beach Miami Classic Olds Mobile by D Ramey Logan
  • I would have to agree, it was interesting. I think I enjoy the featured picture process here better then EN really, it seems to me that people are more inclined to assist in gaining the consensus here, that is motivating! I invite you to review some more of my past work & donations here and lets find some more that we can nominate. I did this picture a few days ago, don't know if it is worthy of a FP but please LMK what you think! Also can videos be nominated here as FP's or is there a cat for FV? --WPPilot (talk) 04:45, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Nijubashi bridge Edo castle Tokyo Japan by D Ramey Logan.jpg - --WPPilot (talk) 02:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

About some DRsEdit

Hi, For some DRs like Commons:Deletion requests/File:DSCN3660 2 (6025176253).jpg you closed as Delete, but the image was renamed and is still here: File:Scenery on Le Pouce (2).jpg. There are several like this. Regards, Yann (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Yann : I think I got them all today, please take a fast look and let me know? Thanks! Ellin Beltz (talk) 14:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Not the ones mentioned below, and not Commons:Deletion requests/File:DSCN3310 2 (6025138553).jpg, File:DSCN3309 2 (6025692348).jpg. Regards, Yann (talk) 14:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
OK. I went back to uploader's contributions and deleted all the files for which they requested renaming. Sorry about the problems in deletion, I've never encountered a situation where the files were renamed during the deletion process. Would you check one more time to see if I've finally gotten them all? Again sorry for the hassle. Face-wink.svg Ellin Beltz (talk) 15:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
No problem. Russavia created this mess, not you. ;o) I think there are only 2 left, renamed by another sock (Special:Contributions/A41-213), File:Le Pouce in Mauritius (1).jpg, File:Hiking on Le Pouce (3).jpg. Not sure if they are worth keeping or not. Regards, Yann (talk) 16:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Files should never renamed while there’s a Deletion Request pending, and this is why. (Also, often a problem, though, as many Deletion Requests pertain only the filename and would be avoided if less experienced users found the rename this button before the delete this button…) However red link says that «Ellin Beltz deleted page File:Scenery on Le Pouce (2).jpg (Copyright violation, see Commons:Licensing: was renamed deleting again)», but the original Deletion Request closing was about off-scope-ness, not about copyvio — I would not have worked at description/categorization of a copyvio to “save” it. I believe it is pretty much in scope, and if needed I can open an Undeletion Request. -- Tuválkin 16:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Complaining about closeEdit

Ellin, you have deleted almost all of the Le Pouce nominations by Yann as being out of scope. Le Pouce in Mauritius is a mountain which is "popular" for hiking. Can you please explain how once identified, imagery relating to hiking on Le Pouce was deemed by you to be out of scope. Example: File:View from Le Pouce (2).jpg is out of scope, according to you. Can you please show a similar image from Le Pouce which shows these views? Others are useful for the flora (which can be identified and might be unique to Mauritius). Others for hiking topics in general. They could be use for wikivoyage, or even off WMF projects. TyphoonE2000 (talk) 02:53, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore, you closed File:Hiking trail on Le Pouce.jpg as delete on the grounds that it's unused (NEVER A REASON FOR DELETION), and that there are better images in the category. Can you kindly show where these better images showing a hiking trail on Le Pouce exist. TyphoonE2000 (talk) 02:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
You could come back and say that File:Le Pouce in Mauritius (1).jpg is a better photo of a hiking trail on Le Pouce, but you also closed this as delete as well. Seriously, did you even look at any of these photos? TyphoonE2000 (talk) 02:58, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
And yes, this is me Russavia. TyphoonE2000 (talk) 04:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Help!! WMFOffice!!! Face-tongue.svg INeverCry 04:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Russavia, you’re not helping. -_- There’s a lot of Commons users’ who’ll jump when you say jump, but you need to “reach out” in meatspace: Make a stink, hire a lawyer, go to the media, hire Prikasso to paint a Philippe this time, do whatever — but don’t crwal out of the woodwork pretending this is business as usual. It is not: You were banned (and I’d not be surprised to learn you were banned over some petty concern, or worse), and you need to get yourself unbanned before ever returning to business as usual. -- Tuválkin 16:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

EmailEdit

INeverCry 03:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

File:DesmondTutu-SallyTanner1986Jan.jpgEdit

Hi Ellin. As part of your RfB I was checking out your (excellent) photo gallery. I noticed this photo, which obviously wasn't (entirely) own work. Even reading the "government photographer" justification, I think it is an error to assume it is PD-Gov, because it was at the California Legislature, so is surely a State government photographer, not a Federal employee. Unless you have other information, I think it should be deleted. Regards, --99of9 (talk) 07:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi 99of9: Sorry, but it's not an assumption, it's a statement by the subject herself who was there. The photo was taken while Desmond Tutu was traveling around with a US Government photographer and his host senator. The government photographer took photos of Tutu with local dignitaries at all the stops on the tour. The photo prints were later sent to the subjects which is how she comes to have one framed on her wall. She graciously permitted me to unframe it to rephotograph it. Ms. Tanner was most emphatic that the photographer was a Federal employee and as a California representative herself with her partner a law judge, I'd not argue with the woman. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 14:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Ok great that sounds watertight. I think it would help if you added the word Federal in the author field (and maybe link to the detail you have provided here). --99of9 (talk) 23:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi 99of9: I went to change the file template and found it already said "Photograph was taken by a U.S. Government photographer as part of Bishop Tutu's tour of California. Other politicians were photographed as part of this series. Print of photo was framed and given to Sally Tanner. This is my photograph of her copy, color corrected, contrast corrected, sharpened and cropped." Is there a problem with what it says already? I didn't want to change anything until you read it. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

US sculpture & FoPEdit

Also, it looks like there are a few problematic US sculptures:

Some of them may be old enough, but most aren't. --99of9 (talk) 07:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi 99of9: Please feel free to nominate any of these. But then also, please nominate all statues of Paul Bunyon (see category he's in) because I only uploaded these because I saw that there were others of same statue and same type. I will find out about the Klamath Bears (they predate the construction of the highway) and if they're old enough / sculptor died long enough ago / I'll file a COM:UNDEL later. The Klamath sign is their welcome sign, it never occurred to me it would be a problem, but please nominate it as well. The last one "indomitable" turns out the caption is wrong. That one is a copy of the original which rotted. Again, please nominate, I won't fuss. Those were taken a long time ago before all the intricacies of the system had been learned. Cheers! Ellin Beltz (talk) 14:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
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