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Mars Gigapixel?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I haven't found anything. Is there a way to grab this gigapixel image of Mars (click link at top of article) or somehow grab at least useful high-resolution panoramas (without the whole 360 thing)? I thought I'd throw it out there. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 00:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The website,, charges users for downloads of their panoramas. I don't think these are free images. -FASTILY (TALK) 02:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
If the original NASA photos are in the public domain (they probably are), someone could make a similar panorama from those and release it under a free license. Rybec (talk) 07:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

POTY candidate caption

Will someone please fix the English translation of the caption for the STS-130 photo from the 2012 POTY competition? Seeing the current caption in the Top 12 list gives me a headache and would be embarrassing to see appear on a calendar produced by WMF. I'd edit the caption myself if I could figure out the correct link. Thanks! --Pine 05:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

  • I've addressed the issue. Thank you to Rschen7754 for helping. --Pine 06:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Renaming or removing

Please rename "File:Swagers kaj Finet - La cxiutaga vivo.jpg" to "File:Swagers kaj Finet.jpg" . Because of "cx" I can't use the file in the Esperanto Vikipedio. Thank you for helping. --Forstbirdo (talk) 15:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

✓ Done. — Ralgis [mantisreligiosa]  —@ 16:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Forstbirdo -- you could actually do it without renaming by setting up an image redirect. When I encountered that problem with File:Sxildo-de-fido de-la-Triunuo.svg (my first and only Esperanto-language image), I set up a redirect from File:Ŝildo-de-fido de-la-Triunuo.svg... AnonMoos (talk) 17:09, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Dear AnonMoos, Many thanks. I'm sorry I have to confess that I don't know what "an image redirect" is like. --Forstbirdo (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC).
You can look at it at ; it's not really any different from an ordinary Wikipedia article redirect. AnonMoos (talk) 23:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Voice of Cory Doctorow.ogg

Last December, File:Voice of Cory Doctorow.ogg, which was uploaded in November, was deleted as having no licence. IIRC, the subject uploaded it himself. However, not being an admin, I can't check (it's possible I uploaded it for him, but I can't find any correspondence in my archives). Could someone do this for me, please? As the subject made the file himself, specifically for this project, there should be no issue, and I'm keen to resolve any that may exist. Andy Mabbett (talk) 16:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

You uploaded this file on 2012-11-07, and tagged it with {{OTRS pending}}. It was tagged with {{No OTRS permission since}} by a bot, after being in the queue for more than 30 days --moogsi (blah) 16:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
That's odd (but thank you nonetheless); I received no talk page notification. I'll have to trawl my Twitter archives, later, to see if Cory and I discussed it there. Andy Mabbett (talk) 16:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

So now we are importing sunset images from flickr?

(Inserted note:links have now replaced the formerly 1,000 pixel wide images)

great. all of them spamming categories. Amada44  talk to me 12:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, isn't that Russavia‎ who uploaded these via a bot or something ? isn't he the polandball guy ? Hey ! let's have ourselves a lynching ! wooHoo ! I'll get some torches, you get some matches, what else do we need to make it nice and authentic southern style, lemme think, umm, oh can we tar and feather saying arbcom is doing what arbcom does over there, and he was the next in line after Mr 5 million edits ?
We need to invite more people, we should find some long time editors with alt accounts from over there to get this thing underway, hmm, maybe some of those semi automated accounts with lots of small edits. Who do we know, hmm what else do we need, ah, an excuse, yes, lets find an excuse, anything really, but don't bring it up on their talkpage like everyone else, we have to make it super-fantastically-attention-grabbing dramatic instead, yes, that's the way. Don't say a word to Russavia‎ about it, hmm, this is so exciting everyone loves a good southern style lynching !!! Hoo Yeaa !
should I get out gimp and make adjustments to this one, add his name and put it on his talkpage, no, better make it his userpage. Is it time yet or is it too soon, I'm so noob at this. Penyulap 13:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
its a general problem. Magnus bot spamming across meaningles (the bot is great, just the automatic cats really don't work) categories and mass importing of random images. Amada44  talk to me 14:04, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I suggest that Magnus is the person to talk to as bot programming is specialised. His talkpage is here Penyulap 14:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
No, it's not a "general problem" or a problem created by Magnus' bot. Making a bot upload one or one thousand images does not exempt the uploader to review what the bot has uploaded. In this case it seems as if the uploader just switches the bot on and forgets about what is being uploaded. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 14:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Woohoo wooohoo! I thought we were in doubt there for a moment ! That's what I'm saying too. I don't know what came over me when I said 'talk to Magnus', I mean the only thing that would do is maybe remove spam categories for all users of his bot, and where's the fun in that. No, I think we need to create some merriment, do you have any target in mind, or are we just going after every user of the bot to yell at them because the bot might include spam categories ? I mean the only other thing to do is write some notes about spam categories that users of the bot might see, and gee I can't think of where that would go, or who to ask about it, can you? Penyulap 17:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't the bot just copy whatever categories the original Flickr uploader listed on Flickr? Those categories often make little sense or are too general. --Stefan4 (talk) 21:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
No. Magnus' bot provides the 'Auto-detect categories' option. Even if selected by default, it can be deselected. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 22:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Stefan4, that's what I expect it is doing, and so an internal blacklist for the categories that copy would be helpful, makes you wonder why this discussion was put here to grab attention when it seems a small matter to discuss this with Magnus actually. Penyulap 08:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey all, when Flickr2Commons uploads it pulls information from the tags on the Flickr image. Using File:Dawn Sunset Isola Bella Taormina-Sicilia Italy - Creative Commons by gnuckx (4276709247).jpg as an example, one will see that the tags on the Flickr image are somewhat overdone. This appears to be a problem with a section of that Flickr users uploads. I am going thru all of these uploads, and as one can see from Category:Sunset in Isola Bella (Taormina) it is easily fixable (don't touch that category as it is currently set up for Commons delinker category change). Whilst there is a largish number of images in that category, they could be quite useful for someone who is wishing to make a time-lapse image of a sunrise. I will make Category:Files from gnuckx Flickr stream a priority in fixing, and now that I know how to fix in bulk the categorisation shouldn't be a problem for too much longer. If there's any issues, feel free to drop by my user talk and raise them directly with me. russavia (talk) 12:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Hmmm.... reading the heading i thought we are discussing too many uploads of similar sunsets and sunrises. But the discussion seems to be about silly-categorization. Amada, what was your intention in opening this topic exactly? 14:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I have a bot request about categorization based on Flickr tags: Commons:Bots/Requests/Rybecbot (2). Looking for feedback. Rybec (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

CC-heirs ?

Is there some particular reason(s) that the heirs are able to release the work under PD-heirs but they are not able to do so under some CC-BY-SA-compliant license? I mean the right of attribution and moral rights. It seems rather unfair for legally inherited: "either unconditional PD, or just keep it". --NeoLexx (talk) 19:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Use {{Heirs-license}} instead in the same way that you would normally use {{Self}}. --Stefan4 (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Great, thank you! Somehow missed this template in all my Commons searches. --NeoLexx (talk) 08:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually that's a template-building template which shouldn't really be used directly. There is {{CC-BY-SA-3.0-heirs}} which may be what Neolexx is looking for, and heirs versions of other licenses can be made pretty easily as needed. Rd232 (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Anti-sign cleanup

There are lots of unused anti-logos in Commons. Some of them seem not to be useful for any realistically probable educational purpose, but attempts to use Commons as a soapbox. I started a few deletion discussions:

I was instructed to start a consolidated discussion. I was told that we have lots of anti-soccer symbols. How do sixteen nearly similar signs, many of them being of poor quality, serve any educational purpose? All this junk just makes it unnecassarily hard to find the potentially useful images.

The policy clearly states that A media file which is neither realistically useful for an educational purpose, nor legitimately in use as discussed above falls outside the scope of Wikimedia Commons. If we really want to keep these logos, we need to change the policy text in order to prevent confusion. --ilaiho (talk) 22:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

It might be admirable in some cases to have a zeal to apply the Commons:Scope policy, but as a matter of working practice here on Commons, users have generally been allowed to compose icons to express personal opinions on their user pages, as long as these don't get out of hand, and aren't blatantly hatemongering or defamatory, etc. Unfortunately, your nominations beyond Uploads by user Straightlife seemed to be rather capricious and arbitrary (singling out a few images among many hundreds based on no clearly-ascertainable criteria), and on Uploads by user Straightlife, File:No oil.JPG, and File:Screenshot-large-1-.jpg you seemed to intentionally avoid mentioning what others would consider to be the main issues involved. Changing current de facto practices won't really be accomplished by launching deletion nominations against a few individual images out of hundreds (and some of those nominations seeming to be a little off-target). AnonMoos (talk) 22:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
I consider your accusations insulting. I cannot read other people's thoughts, otherwise there would be no use for discussions. I wasn't completely aware of the scale of the problem when I started those discussions. If the policy text doesn't reflect the community consensus, it should be changed. Current situation is very likely to cause confusion. --ilaiho (talk) 08:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

These images at the front of the list are rather cute actually. I can't see anyone having a problem with them. Commons:Deletion requests/Uploads by user Straightlife is as much meat as the matter may have, if any. Penyulap 23:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Keep all They are perfectly decent images. We may not agree with what the images are promoting but that's no reason to delete. They are perfectly within scope and it's possible these images (or derivatives of them) could be used somewhere by someone. As far as "anti-sign cleanup", there are probably things around here that could stand to be cleaned up a whole lot more and be a whole less disruptive than picking on a bunch of message-charged images you don't really like. – JBarta (talk) 06:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The policy specifically warns against those somewhere by someone arguments: Not all images for example are realistically useful for an educational purpose, and an image does not magically become useful by arguing that “it could be used to illustrate a Wikipedia article on X”, where X happens to be the subject of the file. There should not be such sentences in the policy if they don't actually mean that. --ilaiho (talk) 08:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
However, there has traditionally been some leeway granted to users to express opinions on user pages (which is why Template:User page image exists, to start with), and in this area an image is not usually deleted because of a technical scope violation alone, but because of scope considerations plus some additional aggravating factor... AnonMoos (talk) 13:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
This is a complete and utter waste of time. Just leave it be. Multichill (talk) 13:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


So the consensus seems to be that the logos should be kept. Now the policy should be changed to reflect the consensus.

This text:

An otherwise non-educational file does not acquire educational purpose solely because it is in use on a user page (the "User:" namespace) of another project, but by custom the uploading of small numbers of images (e.g. of yourself) for use on a personal user page of another project is allowed.

should be replaced with something like this:

Files that are used, or could possibly be used on user pages to express an opinion are allowed, unless they are excessively polemic.

--ilaiho (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

There is an RfC on it that seems to have fizzled: Commons:Requests for comment/scope.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Canoe1967 -- I have Commons:Requests for comment/scope on my watchlist, but so far it all seems to be about abstract metaphysics, about which I have nothing to say. If the discussion could be brought down from the ethereal plane to discuss practical concrete matters, then I might feel more inclined to comment... AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
If you could provide some input that would help the RFC, please feel free! Rd232 (talk) 22:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the conclusion that it is "non-educational" is incorrect. If it's in use in something say a userbox to represent an idea, that's an educational use. Images that illustrate an idea are pretty much educational. Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't get why it needs changed. Maybe "by custom the uploading of small numbers of images (e.g. of yourself) for use on a personal user pages of another project is allowed.", but what we have works well enough.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
  • A consensus to keep these images that express strong opinions shouldn't be misconstrued as supporting a change of policy that would disallow "excessively polemic" opinions--just the opposite. Rybec (talk) 08:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
    I'll put "An otherwise non-educational file does not acquire educational purpose solely because it is in use on a user page (the "User:" namespace) of another project, but by custom the uploading of small numbers of images for use on personal user pages is allowed. Icons for use with e.g. user boxes are allowed, too." on the policy page. --ilaiho (talk) 08:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

March 31

Feedback wanted on "Welcome to Commons" brochure

Wikimedia Foundation is developing a "Welcome to Commons" print brochure, similar to the Welcome to Wikipedia brochure. It's a very rough draft right now, and I'm eager for community feedback. In particular, I want to make sure it's as accurate as possible without going into the details too far (similar to what the Upload Wizard comic does, but with a little more detail). Here's the draft: Commons:Welcome to Commons brochure. Please give it a close read and leave feedback! The next step, after about two weeks of community feedback and revision, will be to hand it off to the designer.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I looked through it. It looks good - I did not find any issues. --Jarekt (talk) 15:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Large uploads

Using the expiremental "Chunked uploads for files over 1MB in Upload Wizard" preference, it should be possible to upload files up to 500mb. Since there were some relatively recent changes in this area, there might still be problems. The current system uses the job queue. Once things are working fine, the 500mb limit can be raised by some amount (no more than 5GB though). Realistically page deletion and moves will start to get impractical with such large files pending a rewrite of the whole file layout system. Any problems can go in bugzilla. The primary bug is 36587 at the moment. Aaron Schulz (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

April 03

Rename suggestions

So I have these files that are part of one set (that I will expand in the future), and the file names aren't harmonized. Just wondering, what tag between the parentheses  would be the clearest? Napoleon, Napoleonic or Empire? I'd like to get it "right" before I ask someone to harmonize them all. Lemmens, Tom (talk) 12:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As I understand it "harmonising" isn't really a reason to request a rename. The current names are descriptive and correct. Sinnamon (talk) 12:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Uploader requested is, in any case. :) Lemmens, Tom (talk) 13:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Funny thing is that I've actually checked if you were the uploader... but I didn't check to see if your signature matches your User:name. Honest mistake, didn't mean to put you down or anything. Sinnamon (talk) 13:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
No problem. :) Any opinion on the best tag? Lemmens, Tom (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
what about <blah blah> (First French Empire).<ext>? Rbrausse (talk) 15:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Signature bot on Commons

Hi, I propose we use a signature bot on Commons to sign unsigned posts and notify users who repeatedly post on talk pages without a signature. On the English Wikipedia, this is done by w:User:SineBot. That bot's source code is not public, but I think this would be helpful rather than manually adding {{Unsigned}}. Thoughts? Mono 02:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I wonder why it's never been implemented here. Barring a good reason not to do so, I think it's a fine idea. – JBarta (talk) 03:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support. --Túrelio (talk) 07:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support provided someone is willing to procure and administer such a bot. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:46, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support. Sounds like a good idea. — SMUconlaw (talk) 12:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support. — Ralgis [mantis Religiosa] — 14:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  Comment It should be set up with a reasonable delay to allow those who forgot to sign time to look over their posts and correct, otherwise it gets annoying. Dankarl (talk) 02:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support and according to Commons talk:Counter Vandalism Unit other users support this as well. -- Rillke(q?) 18:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
+1 --Nemo 08:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
  Neutral I find such things annoying, but I do understand that the level of my annoyance is significantly less than annoyance of those who want it, but don't have it here. Sinnamon (talk) 09:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
  Strong oppose I'm strongly opposed to the use of SineBot while it remains non-Free. However, if the source code was released, preferably under a GPL-compatible license, then I'd be ok with it. I hope Slakr kindly releases the source code. —James Haigh (talk) 2013-03-21T03:39:17Z
Why does it matter? -FASTILY (TALK) 06:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't see why another project based on the philosophy of openness should become reliant on a proprietary component. I find it bad enough that Wikipedia seems to rely on it. I only found out that SineBot wasn't open about a week ago, when I went looking for the code to see if I could track down and fix a bug, to then offer a patch. Without the code, all bug fixes are down to Slakr—not even Wikipedia admins can fix or change SineBot. —James Haigh (talk) 2013-03-21T08:18:17Z
Because we can't make fixes? Because we can't port it to a new project? Because it could break or the owner could shut it off without any notice, and there's nothing anyone could do about it?--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Luxo could shut down all his tools and I am sure there is no one who will run his tools despite they are open source, useful and used. Looks like the ivony tower. -- Rillke(q?) 17:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I would feel weird if someone else ran Palz instead of me, and although I could run sinebot, I really don't want to. It's like the running it and writing it are connected (Z wrote palz, but I did his pages, and tinker with his code). The person who wants to run the bot might like to write it, and even if you have the code, it's still a task to find a willing operator. Need to find an operator. Penyulap 18:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
  Support Alan Lorenzo (talk) 14:09, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Building the bot

The ENWP bot is run by one user and the source code is not public. In general, I have been unable to contact the user. I think it's safe to say that their chance of responding is unlikely, so we should consider building our own. Mono 02:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Not public! That's strange. I thought everything on Wikipedias should be publicly available, just like articles. Is this not applicable for codes? Would we require their permission to use? Can some admin get in and bring the code here? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Nope, not bot programs, which are run out of private servers or on wmlabs. -FASTILY (TALK) 05:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

In de.wikipedia, there is CopperBot that does a similar job (contribs, config). --Leyo 14:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Can someone contact him for the code? I don't speak German? Mono 16:41, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I left a note on his talk page. – JBarta (talk) 16:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I guess Mono meant the other bot. The operator does understand English. --Leyo 23:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC) PS. I asked him.
Yes, I mean CopperBot. —Mono 20:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't know anything about bots, but I saw this conversation. SineBot took over for HagermanBot, so that might be a starting point as well. Again, no clue about bots, so if this is pointless, sorry 'bout that. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 08:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually doing something

Has anyone contacted the op of CopperBot on dewiki? —Mono 19:55, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

If you can come up with a specification and are willing to run it (or know somebody willing to run it), I'll see if I can write said bot. -FASTILY (TALK) 02:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Sure, I can get the specifics written up and run it on the Toolserver thru my account. —Mono 19:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I just left P.Copp a message showing my interest in his bot code. If I am able to get it, I could have it modified to work here. Otherwise, for writing one from scratch, that would take some time, but it would be for a useful purpose.  Hazard-SJ  ✈  00:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

March 30

Remove text from File:Skjareinn.svg

I think that the text "Einfaldlega betra en RÚV" (in all caps) needs to be removed from the image File:Skjareinn.svg. This text is in Icelandic, and translated it would be "Simply better than RÚV". RÚV refers to Iceland's national public-service broadcasting organization.--Snaevar (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

You can file a request at "Commons:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop". — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Did that.--Snaevar (talk) 18:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

April 02

Transcripts on file pages

Hi! There are transcripts on the file page of File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg. Should they remain there or should they be moved to Wikisource? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As it is, it's not of very great length. AnonMoos (talk) 09:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Each individual transcript is not very long, but how many language versions should be posted until it is moved? WhisperToMe (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Mug shot

I cropped File:Leona Helmsley.jpg for use in her en:wp infobox because of our policy about mug shots. I noticed it is still full size in other language projects. Do those have a similar policy and should it be changed out?--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

You should ask respective projects. Ruslik (talk) 08:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Unilateral changes to look of Commons:Community portal page

Did anyone else notice the change to the colour scheme on March 31 ( does anyone else care? Should we leave how the community pages look to the whims of individual editors-or is it the kind of thing that should be discussed first?--KTo288 (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't protest this user's reversion but not everything needs to be discussed and decided —Mono 20:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Changing the tables to div elements was an improvement. The grey decorations looked fine to me; of course it's a matter of taste. However, other pages on the site (this page, Help:Contents, and the main page) have blue and yellow decorations, whereas Commons:Contact us has blue and grey. The site would probably look most pleasing if the colors were the same on the various pages. Rybec (talk) 00:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Copyright license

I emailed the Publications Manager of the Australian War Memorial regarding using one of their images. They replied that Wikipedia was free to use any of their copyrighted images for free as long as the original caption and AWM catalogue number was used in the summary description. This is their copyright page. What copyright license should be used for this? WLRoss (talk) 08:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Did they say that only Wikipedia is free to use them? For Commons this is not enough. Ruslik (talk) 08:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Although I enquired about a specific image for a specific article, he simply said that all their images can be freely used in Wikipedia articles. I have changed my email address since I got the reply so no longer have it but I can always email again for specifics. WLRoss (talk) 08:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I've just noticed that the copyright page has been greatly expanded since I last saw it. We may be covered by "fair use." Someone with copyright experience needs to read the page to see what we can do. WLRoss (talk) 08:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Fair use is not allowed on Commons. Under "Australian War Memorial Copyright", they state that "[u]nless otherwise noted, the versions of the images made available on this website which are Australian War Memorial copyright are provided under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Australia (CC BY-NC 3.0) license", which is not a free license. You could ask them for permission by email. — Ralgis [mantisreligiosa]  —@ 13:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Labeling of languages - Traditional Chinese mistakenly labeled as Simplified Chinese

At File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg I notice that the listing of subtitles gives "Simplified Chinese" twice even though one set is Traditional Chinese. How should the labeling be fixed? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 18:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Ruslik (talk) 08:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Tervuren confusion

Tervuren is a Belgian municipality. Some doglover a confusing redirect to a dog type. I renamed the redirect to Tervuren (dog), only the original redirect stil exist. Most people are looking for a municipality when they type in "Tervuren", not a dog (sub)breed.Smiley.toerist (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Searching for "Tervuren" now takes you to Category:Tervuren. Also, "doglover" is fighting talk where I'm from --moogsi (blah) 02:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
"Doglover" is illegal in my country. Rodhullandemu (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

April 04

Claiming copyright on a drawing by Leonardo da Vinci

See: File:Aile mobile Luc Viatour.jpg. The phtographer is claiming copyright and demanding (not asking) for mentioning of his name. In his template he even warns against "illegal use" of this reproduction. Shouldn't this be simply marked up as {{PD-Art|1=PD-old-auto|deathyear=1519|country=Italy}} and then mention/credit Lviatour as the photographer (without assigning any new copyright to him)? Whaledad (talk) 13:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

  • The opinion of the foundation lawyers is that a faithful 2D reproduction of a 2D public domain work is itself 2D. However, if ever they will change their mind (due to some case, for example), then we will need to track down and see if a new copyright is in order. Putting image under a free licence in such a case is a good thing to do. Also there's a slight 3D element here, as I can see it the paper isn't exactly 2D in this case, and since the community is crazy enough to even allow cave paintings to be condisdered 3D, I think that once again nobody knows how this one would play out. I find nothing bad about this case. It's clear that on the description page there's a note about Da Vinci's work being in public domain. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 14:15, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I applied {{Art Photo}} template, which should clarify the situation. Other option is to use {{Licensed-PD-Art}} so reusers from countries like US can assume PD, and reusers from countries with different laws can choose photographer's license. --Jarekt (talk) 15:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course "a faithful 2D reproduction of a 2D public domain work is itself 2D," but I presume you meant to say, "a faithful 2D reproduction of a 2D public domain work is itself public domain." - Jmabel ! talk 16:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I meant that it it also PD. Sorry. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 23:00, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

It's a slavish reproduction of a 2D piece of artwork. The author is not Luc Viatour, the author is da Vinci. Luc Viatour has a copyright on this image like I have a copyright on the Mona Lisa. His copyright tags should be removed and the work properly attributed, though he can be noted as the photographer of this public domain piece of art. He may be the photographer, but he has no "copyright" claims whatsoever on this image. The file should also be renamed to something more appropriate. – JBarta (talk) 21:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

In the US it's that simple. Elsewhere it's not - see Commons:Reuse_of_PD-Art_photographs#Belgium. Rd232 (talk) 21:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Understood. Does any such exception apply in this case? – JBarta (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Nevermind. I was thinking the painting was in Italy (therefore the photo was taken in Italy), but if the guy is in Belgium and he first "published" it on his Belgian web site, then the rule you mention applies. Thanks for slapping me in the head with yet more copyright nuances. – JBarta (talk) 22:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Commons:Requests for comment/Files For Upload

There's not been much input into Commons:Requests for comment/Files For Upload (proposing a facility to allow users to request someone do an upload on their behalf). I've suggested integrating such a request facility into Commons:Upload help. Some additional comments at the RFC would be nice. Rd232 (talk) 22:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

password protected embedded files

The issue of uploaded JPGs containing embedded password protected archives has come up. I proposed adding this as a criteria for speedy deletion. Comments on that talk page welcome. – JBarta (talk) 09:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Rather poor close on a DR

Ad hoc categorization within a set of icons espoused by admin

The discussion, about an issue which is sadly not new, is going on here: Talk:BSicon/Categorization#Axpde's single-tree idea. -- Tuválkin 19:50, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

April 06

Suggestions which SVG errors should be detected and fixed

There is a discussion about a bot running over all SVGs at Wikimedia Commons. SVGs are not attempted to be rendered during the bot-run. Only errors that can be detected by accessing DOM nodes and attributes can be detected and fixed. -- Rillke(q?) 11:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Why was my comment deleted?


I posted a request for non interaction, which was deleted. In the history it point to the administrator´s noticeboard, but it is not there. Or shoud I start a new diiscussion there? --Tomascastelazo (talk) 21:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Really, isn't that evident from the name Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems (COM:ANU)? --Túrelio (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The post was deleted and NOT moved. Check it yourself. At a minimun then, a note should have alerted of the deletion and a request to post in COM:AN --Tomascastelazo (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
well the second part is, the first part is contrary. But it doesn't belong here according to our policy. Penyulap 21:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Two posts were deleted, with the intention being (I assume) that you would repost them at COM:AN/U (it's better to avoid reposting on others' behalf, it easily causes confusion). You can still do that reposting now. Rd232 (talk) 21:52, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

UK Geograph images now automatically categorized at County level

After extensive testing last year, Faebot (talk · contribs) has been quietly busy going through UK Geograph photographs in the following locations. We believe the location within the County boundary is highly accurate, better than any automated use of geo-coordinates in the past, being based on the latest Ordnance Survey Open Data. Something in the order of ½ a million photographs have been categorized, and I welcome feedback on any errors or other problems before sending Faebot off to finish the rest of the UK over the next few months (around another 1.5 million). Example regions done include:

These categories are particularly useful for spotting photographs with the wrong location categories, or to assist in correctly identifying locations with similar (or identical) names. They are also a lot of fun to browse if you know the area well. Credit is due to Nilfanion for support and advice during testing. Feel free to raise any issues you spot on my talk page. Thanks -- (talk) 23:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to hear that someone finally picked this up. Could you please publish your source code under a free license so others can improve on this? Multichill (talk) 17:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll think about it. I'm holding out for a teensy bit of gratitude from certain people 'in authority' after certain unfortunate events. Give it at least another month. Thanks -- (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

April 05


Need some help with fixing the broken Template:Distinguish. It is not working when there are only 2 parameters used. It seems like it's missing some code, see Category:Simeon for an example at the top. Thanks, Funandtrvl (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems to work if you replace "2" with "4". More generally, it seems to work if the 2nd category is numbered "4", the 3rd category "3" and the 4th category "2". It's not obvious. It could indeed use some modification to make it be more intuitive. -- Asclepias (talk) 22:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, and I don't know enough code to fix it, somewhat like the coding at w:Template:Distinguish, but with using categories, instead of article names. Funandtrvl (talk) 22:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I think that this edit should fix it. --Redrose64 (talk; at English Wikipedia) 18:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Wonderful, thanks much!! --Funandtrvl (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


How do I make the lines in the description field look like that in the image? The most important tasks are that I need a fat line for "Östergötlands län" and "Samtliga medtagna län (översta kurvan)" and a thin - but short - line for "Jönköpings län". --Årvasbåo (talk) 17:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

You can copy from that description. Ruslik (talk) 07:43, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

April 08

PD-Art files without a source

I've noticed that some people are deleting {{PD-Art}} files which don't have a source (example, for admins: File:'The Lonely Monk', oil on canvas painting by Enoch Wood Perry, Jr.jpg). Question: normally sourcing is critical for determining copyright status; but logically, as long as it is a PD-Art case, the sourcing of the photo doesn't matter for the copyright status. So shouldn't we just keep these files? Either way, it would be helpful to clarify this and add a note to Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag, because it does come up occasionally. Rd232 (talk) 09:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I think people get way too much happiness by deleting stuff in general for the thinnest of reasons. Sorry, maybe not the most constructive comment, but I think an accurate observation nonetheless. – JBarta (talk) 10:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I always leave them alone. I don't think the source is essential if the license is PD-Art –⁠moogsi (blah) 10:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  Keep and offer to undelete all that have been deleted by over-eager admins. -- (talk) 10:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Provided the image and artist are as the description says. Dankarl (talk) 14:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Source does often help with that. For example if I say that source is "" I am not sure if you can verify artist from it. --Jarekt (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  Keep Many types of license does not require source to verify license status: {{PD-old-100}}, {{PD-text}}, {{PD-shape}}, {{PD-medical}}, {{PD-US-patent-no notice}}, {{PD-1923}}, etc. I restored that one file, but that is very troubling, since a lot of work goes into curating proper metadata for the artworks, so mistaken deletions of files waists everybody's time. Even after images are undeleted, they are not automatically re-inserted to articles. We do have over 41k files in Category:Images without source but that is not a reason to delete them. For PD old artworks we usually add {{Unknown|source}} to such files. Is there a way to search for deleted "no source" PD-old files? --Jarekt (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The point of the source in cases of PD-Art is to provide evidence of the author/date which corroborates that license. This is per COM:EVID. Adding a no source tag (without first making a rudimentary search) is lazy, and linking directly to an image file is inappropriate (again, per COM:EVID). This is how you do it. We simply need a third-party connection of the image to the author. Эlcobbola talk 14:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    • The point of the source in cases of PD-Art is to provide evidence of the author/date - but it's not necessary (and the source doesn't always say, either). For PD-Art cases it is often possible to find the same content from other sources, so you can confirm the author/date, without being able to say what the source of the digital file is. Rd232 (talk) 15:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
      • "In all cases the uploader must provide appropriate evidence to demonstrate either that the file is in the public domain." I didn't say the file had to be sourced; what needs to be sourced is the evidence (authorship/date) information. Эlcobbola talk 15:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
        • But it almost never is. If the user just says "own work", and "this is an image of the following painting by artist So-and-So", we don't demand sourcing for that. Rd232 (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
          • Well, COM:L, COM:EI, COM:EVID, etc. do actually demand it, we just aren't particularly good at enforcing that demand. Эlcobbola talk 16:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
            • Yes, but enforcing that demand is a separate issue. I'm happy to discuss that too, but as I've tried to clarify in a new subsection, it's an issue that's beyond the scope of what I intended this thread to be. Feel free to start a new thread - I can already think of some ideas on the topic :) Rd232 (talk) 17:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  •   Comment What should be required is a cleyar statement about why the image qualifies as {{PD-Art}}. It could be so simple as the name of the file (for instance File:Las Meninas - Velázquez.jpg, even if with no further information, could any reviewer to determine that Velázquez was a famous painter and he died more than 80 ago, and that Las Meninas is one of his works. However, if the name is sort of File:Rubbish name.jpg without further information, then it could be argued that it could be deleted on the grounds of lack of source information. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 15:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    • You're basically right but slightly confusing sourcing and description. A source is primarily a source for the digital file, and only secondarily a source for the content. You can very easily end up with having a file where it's clear what the content is, but not where the digital file came from. Rd232 (talk) 15:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
      • @Ecemaml: it isn't really that simple. For example, I've not heard of Velázquez, so that name has no particular meaning to me. Similarly, Caspar David Friedrich is very well known to me and most Germans, but I doubt the average American, for example, would be familiar with him. Эlcobbola talk 15:43, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Normally the description should contain enough information to identify the subject. The issue is the level of proof needed that the identification is correct. Rd232 (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Why exactly would an uploader not provide source information? Surely they know which website they copied the file com, or from which book they scanned it? Not providing source information is sloppy work that should not be encouraged. --Rosenzweig τ 16:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

That's true. But the question is whether if an uploader has been sloppy, and it's not a recent upload where we can try asking them to fix it, a missing source is grounds for deletion, in PD-Art cases. Rd232 (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
We have a lot of sloppy uploads sometimes with minimal matadata. But sometimes there are legitimate reasons: Like downloads from databases that do not offer stable links Category:Images from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum come to mind, images from ebay are another example. Also images might be no longer available as websites blink in and out of existence. I had cases where source website was on some black-list for spamming and it was not possible to save file with it's URL. In all of those cases it would still be good to provide the source URL, but it would take a lot of effort.--Jarekt (talk) 17:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

To recap: there are always two sourcing issues with a PD-Art file (sometimes more, but never mind that...):

  1. Source of the content - eg the painting. Who made it, when, and where? This is normally provided as part of the description. Evidence for it is usually lacking if the file hasn't been copied from the web, where the source website will often provide documentation and usually (not always, eg if it's Flickr) constitute a good source.
  2. Source of the digital file. Who made it, when, and where? Often there's an "own work" claim, which has its own issues. Often it's taken from the web, so there's a URL to check. Sometimes a printed source is given, as the user has scanned it. Sometimes no source for the digital file is given at all.

The issue that prompted me to start this thread was that sometimes we have files with no source for the digital file (failing 2.), but a clear description of the content, often verifiable by looking online (meeting 1.). Sometimes 2. is also fixable by searching online - aha! that's where it came from!. Other times, it's not.

There are of course a range of issues around the level of evidence needed for both 1. and 2.; but my question here is really limited to what to do in this specific case, where we accept 1. is OK but 2. is not. Normally for this we'd have to delete, but because 2. doesn't matter for PD-Art copyright status (in the US...) it seems logical to keep these cases, tagged as unknown-source (maybe with a custom tag to help clarify that some effort has been made to find the source). Rd232 (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Ideally all PD-old files by notable artists will also have one (or more) of creator templates which would make verification of license requirements easy. In such a case source of the binary file is not necessary. Same with lets say books, if you can prove that is was printed in US prior to 1923 than you can use {{PD-1923}} without providing exact URL link for the website you downloaded it from (however it would be great if you do). --Jarekt (talk) 17:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Conclusion: Well, this thread seems to give a clear answer to my question: yes, PD-Art files should be kept as long as the PD-ness of the art can be verified to a reasonable standard, even if the origin of the digital file is unclear. Rd232 (talk) 21:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Added to Commons:Verifying permissions (a draft proposal that will hopefully go somewhere at some point). Rd232 (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Commons:User pages

A recent minor incident prompted me to review guidance on user pages. This incident is easily explained if I link to User:Bebop7 (this version, if it changes) without warning visitors that it's "Not Safe For Work", which I don't think is a warning that should ever apply to a user page. But I wouldn't do that, so you have been warned.

Anyway, this prompted me to draft Commons:User pages as a proposed guideline, which offers some generally useful advice I think, as well as a part (Commons:User_pages#Galleries) which specifically arises from that incident. Before taking it any further, I'd like to see some initial comments or improvements. Thanks. Rd232 (talk) 14:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, we still have no COM:Locker room policy as that fell flat where I raised it here a year ago, or any common understanding of what NSFW means in the Commons context. I would prefer any guideline to take account of the potential for administrator action in response to complaints being raised and that there is a documented consensus for the particular issue. For example if someone wants to pick their favourite top ten topless under-18 girls to make a gallery on their user page, then I suggest that (a) if nobody cares enough to raise a formal complaint, then it should be ignored, (b) a consensus is required if no prior consensus exists for the particular topic (in this case 'user galleries of nude under-18s' or similar) for an administrator to take action and delete the page, or to block the user if they persist in recreating the galleries. In the case of (b), anyone would be free to attempt to create a new consensus, though one might expect that reasonable time limits would apply. -- (talk) 14:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I considered putting in a section about enforcement, but I thought it might be simpler to just leave it. But if we were to have such a section, I'd put something like "Content should be moved on request by the user, if anyone asks them to. If the user declines, content may be moved to a subpage by any administrator, and may not be moved back unless there is a consensus following discussion at COM:AN that the content is in fact acceptable for a userpage; non-admins may request any admin to act, or post at COM:AN.". That, plus maybe some examples as we get them from practice, would cover it without making a whole Thing about definitional issues of this and that. Rd232 (talk) 15:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment I've just noticed a partial overlap with some of COM:PSP policy - Commons:Project scope/Pages, galleries and categories#User_pages.2C_galleries_and_categories. It's a rather odd little spin-off of COM:SCOPE, I think (what's the P even stand for?). If we make Commons:User pages a guideline and finally approve COM:CSD, then it'll be pretty well redundant. Rd232 (talk) 15:06, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Serious question - Does this not apply Commons:NOTCENSORED Kiltpin (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Serious answer - no, COM:NOTCENSORED is about hosting educationally useful files despite those files being offensive to some. It is an obvious and transparent abuse of the meaning of the policy to try to use it to claim that we must tolerate graphic sexual images anywhere and everywhere on Commons, including user pages, and I can only hope no-one is so foolish as to try to make that claim. Rd232 (talk) 15:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I asked the question, because I did not know the answer. Now I do. Thank you for your swift reply. Kiltpin (talk) 15:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for asking - it was bound to come up, I suppose. Rd232 (talk) 16:08, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree. The level of jackassedness around here in general is astounding. Sometimes I'm almost embarassed to be a part of this community. – JBarta (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

The suggestion to limit the size of people's galleries would never gain support but would be directly on track for a head-on collision with the best contributors the project has. Penyulap 15:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I think the best contributors are likely to be among those more amenable to argument. In this case, as the WMF move to developing mobile access should remind us, not everyone always accesses Commons via broadband. Large galleries can impede user pages from loading, and since user pages are something that you should be able to take a quick look at (to find out key details that are hopefully there like language skills and user rights), that is a problem. Fortunately, it's an easily solvable problem, with userspace galleries on a user subpage, linked (can be very prominent!) from the user page. Rd232 (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
This part of the proposal has my wholehearted approval (it is a real pain to have your browser freeze because of some ridiculously large user page), but I am afraid I have to agreee with Penyulap on that one − this is going to be a mess to enforce. Jean-Fred (talk) 17:08, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
A concrete example has been brought to my attention: User:Heralder is over 20mb on disk when saved in Firefox as a webpage. Which may actually be a fairly simple way of enforcing this: set a guideline of X megabytes for "large", it's not hard to measure that way (I've not found any good online way to measure it). Rd232 (talk) 17:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't think enforcement need be a huge mess. We can simply politely notify those with humongous user pages of the discussion, then if the policy is agreed, give them another polite notice of 30 days to meet the policy/guidelines, after which any admin is free to move their huge browser-breaking user page to a sensible sub-page and leave a link with a suitable note. This may have to happen for users that are inactive and may be uninterested in making any changes, rather than due to any philosophical objection. -- (talk) 17:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's a failure of an idea which can only get as far as it is rolled out at a creeping slow pace, you'll only be able to start idiotic arguments with good contributors at a rate that doesn't exceed the number of people who like to argue in favour of the proposed 'policy'. If you bite off more than you can chew at one time, they'll just crap all over your policy. Pretty simple equation. If these users didn't want to display their work on their userpages it wouldn't be there in the first place. If you don't want to view someone's userpage, then hey, don't view it. If there is a problem loading a user's talkpage because that user does mostly high bandwidth work, then they can have an alternate account just for that stuff and a regular account for ordinary chat. I recall researching that at a time I did a lot of 4 meg gif's for people, but it didn't appeal to me. Gif's load automatically unlike videos, so they choke bandwidth, My talkpage archive is a great example of a large talkpage. the 2012 archive in particular is a browser killer. As a conlimited point to argue with a small number of people it's a goer, as a widely acceptable policy it's a flop. Penyulap 18:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

If these users didn't want to display their work on their userpages it wouldn't be there in the first place. - most people do it because they've seen others do it, and would go along with a guideline saying otherwise if they understand the rationale and are pointed to a good alternative (user subpage). Muddying the waters with other issues like auto-loading GIFs and user talk pages isn't helpful: this discussion is about user pages. (I created User:MiszaBot/usertalksetup for user talk pages, and I think that works pretty well.) Rd232 (talk) 18:53, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Advice like "If you don't want to view someone's userpage, then hey, don't view it" seems to be a popular refrain in these types of discussions. The trouble is that a person has to visit the userpage in order to know that they don't want to see it. And knowing that any userpage on Commons might contain whatever it is that the person does no wish to view is likely to discourage them from looking at any userpages. That probably won't make them feel welcome or want to contribute their time here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
"If you don't want to view someone's userpage, then hey, don't view it" - no, absolutely not. That's perfectly reasonable for something which is optional to look at, like a userspace gallery, especially with appropriate warnings; but user pages are an intrinsic part of Commons' communication infrastructure, it is normal to view them in many contexts when users want to find out more about a user, and they are linked from every signature. No, no, thrice no. Rd232 (talk) 19:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see the need for galleries of user uploads, but I generally have no objection to them. The userpage that prompted this discussion was a gallery of genitalia. Some of the images had been originally uploaded by the user and others were images that the user had edited. The questions here isn't "Is it ok for users to have galleries on their userpage?", it is "Is it ok to put a gallery of dicks on your userpage?". Talk of "warnings" is really beside the point, since they will only be seen if an unsuspecting user loads the page. Anything other than a guideliney which means that any user can blank such a gallery and point to the guideline is a waste of words here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not necessary that any user can blank anything they deem too graphic, and even suggesting that makes it less likely that a guideline will be approved. So thanks for that counter-productive comment, DC. In the first place, a guideline is needed to establish the community disapproves of certain things; enforcement is a secondary issue, and only if pointing to the guideline proves not to be enough do we absolutely need to pin down a specific enforcement process. (We could choose to build one into the guideline pre-emptively, but I'm inclined not to.) Rd232 (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Commons has a nice clear guideline about why we don't accept any more images of white dicks (COM:PENIS), but it is ignored almost all of the time. Sorry if I seem to keep going on about penises again, but lends itself to being used as an example here. If you want to write guidelines that people will ignore, I think you're on the right track. If you want to deal with the issue, you're wasting your time. Again. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:06, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Those are totally different enforcement challenges. Most userpage galleries are from long-term Commons contributors, who to some degree are aware of and care about sticking to policy, and interact with others who do too (who will raise issues one way or another). By contrast, most files covered by COM:PENIS are uploaded by new users who are unaware of policy. Rd232 (talk) 21:49, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It isn't the ignorant uploaders who I am blaming for ignoring COM:PENIS, it's the very experienced, long-term contributors and admins who vote to keep those images (and those who close DRs as keep in spite of COM:PENIS). How would your proposed guideline address the situation at hand? If it doesn't result in the removal of that gallery of genitalia, it is pointless. Is it ok to have a gallery of dicks on your userpage? If it can't be used to determine an answer to that question, it is not going to be useful in dealing with the type of people who are likely to put up a gallery of dicks on their userpage. If "it's only a guideline" is a valid reason for not removing such a gallery, you've wasted your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Have you read the wording of the draft? It would be more useful to comment on that than to vaguely worry that it might not succeed. Rd232 (talk) 22:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I have. A user could make use of any of these three loopholes to justify keeping a gallery such as the one that I removed: "It's only a guideline, not a policy"; "These are educational"; "I put a warning on the page". A reasonable person might remove a gallery when the guideline is pointed out, but I don't think that's what we're dealing with here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:17, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
The first one is weak tea; anyone using that is liable to lose the argument once more people get involved. (It's also the sort of silly wikilawyering which is thankfully less common on Commons than English Wikipedia.) The other two are non-arguments; you have to badly misread the draft text to think the text permits them as loopholes. (User pages are quite obviously not a "specific educational context (such as a Wikipedia article)", and once that is conceded, those two loopholes disappear.) Rd232 (talk) 23:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Wait and see, I guess. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  Oppose Any "safe for work" requirement. Per Penyulap. People are too busy trying to protect those who can't see a picture of a vagina, but yet what about somebody (like myself) who is honestly offended by the proposals such as this one. You people claim that you want everybody to "feel welcome" but what you actually do is the creation of the culture of harassment, where it'll be easier to troll somebody by forcing that person to place some warnings on one's user page or to remove one's own uploads from there. Please stop being so one-sided. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
There is no voting here; this is initial discussion. People are too busy trying to protect those who can't see a picture of a vagina - I fully expect that most of those supporting the proposal are perfectly happy to look at pictures of nudity in an appropriate context (be it educational, like a Wikipedia article, or decidedly non-educational... which is none of our business here). Showing some consideration of others is something some people are oddly allergic to; it's not an attitude I understand. Also, making this purely about graphic sexual images misses that not all images that merit warnings when not shown in an educational context are graphic sexual ones. Images of graphic violence may also merit warnings when shown outside an educational context where users will expect it. Rd232 (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I   Support voting it's fun, especially since this is as close to any kind of policy that this obvious tool of harassment will ever get. Which I   Oppose btw. So let's   Keep the harmless and fun voting ! It's the best part of this discussion. Penyulap 23:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Large userpages

I know this is slightly off of the original topic of this thread but so is much of the above. I have what some would probably consider a relatively large user page. It shows a gallery of what I consider some of my best work, almost certainly under 1% of what I have uploaded to Commons, but I've uploaded a lot. While perhaps I flatter myself, I would think I a considered a good contributor to the Commons. If I were told that I could not display these samples of my work, I would object strenuously. Having an image-heavy page does not significantly slow down the time for the HTML to load in a browser, and I would think that in any decent browser you can view a page while images continue load in the background, and can kill the load if you don't want them to continue downloading. What modern browser won't do this? And if one does, why use it? - Jmabel ! talk 01:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

It is precisely on the topic of this thread Jmabel. And I agree with you 150%. User:Bebop7 is the reason that Rd232 is on this crusade -- the guy creates a few sexuality related images which are in use on various projects; he displays them on his userpage, Delicious carbuncle comes along and removes the images, Bebop7 reverts, Rd232 then comes along and moves the entire userpage to a subpage and is now trying to push through a poorly thought out guideline that will obviously affect editors such as yourself who contribute content to the project. It's sad. russavia (talk) 01:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Russavia, how do you suggest we accommodate users ike Jmabel while still dealing with users who want a userpage full of genitalia images? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I have a solution... an age requirement. Editors must be at least 9 years old. And while we're at it, admins must be at least 12. Probably solve a good number of problems all the way around. – JBarta (talk) 03:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I've personally, even on broadband, found that large userpages give a momentary loading "blip" during which I can't scroll the page. (To pre-empt the nearly inevitable: that's a minor irritation that in no way factors in the proposal.) But it makes it easy to believe that on slower connections, or older machines, the delay before the page is usable is more substantial. And some contributors have reported exactly that, up to and including browser-crashing. Your comparison with a category page is interesting, and could be a reasonable benchmark. Some testing suggests categories with 200+ files are about 2.3mb on disk (eg Category:PD-Art (PD-old default)); your userpage is 5.85mb. But particularly when we're thinking about mobile (which is the future, right?), then we may have people uploading images, but not doing much browsing; but then needing to do some interaction around the upload, which might involve looking at userpages (especially of deleting admins...).
In short, moving these sorts of galleries off userpages doesn't seem a lot to ask. We do have Category:User galleries and {{User gallery}}, which could be expanded and developed to make it easier to navigate such galleries. Userpages are not the perfect solution for presenting user galleries, even from the point of view of the galleries! Let's try and be a bit more flexible and open to change here, folks. Reducing galleries on userpages to at most the equivalent of 200 category thumbnails is not a lot to ask, when it comes down to it. Rd232 (talk) 20:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with internet speed, that's your computer allocating memory for the browser to build the page. The blip will be the same length for a given machine regardless of the speed of the net. Penyulap 20:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Possibly (but FYI my machine has 6GB ram). I'm not sure what difference it makes for the proposal... but in the back of my mind is not just people on slow connections or mobile, but also (and Wikimedia is keen to encourage such users) people from the developing world who may have older machines. Rd232 (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't matter how many bottles of coke the store has, you still have to spend the time to go there and get one regardless of how many there are. Same with ram, it still has to be allocated. If it runs short, then it takes even (painfully) longer as it uses the swap space to empty ram first.
If you're using windoze and Internet Explorer all is not lost, you can speed up the process using a bucket of water {Penyulap smiles and starts nodding} Penyulap 21:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Content that merits context or warnings

  • There's not much point in turning user pages into a child-safe zone while the rest of the site is uncensored. I don't think many people come here with the intention of only browsing user pages.
There may be some possibility of using meta tags to help users of filtering software, as described at [3] and [4]. As described at those pages, inaccurately using the tag can cause problems. If this is done, I think it would make sense to do it on the whole site, not only user pages. If it's done for user pages, I would hope that, if it's done, it would be in a way that isn't burdensome for contributors who want to have a user page.
A disclaimer like "this site contains user-contributed media that some people may find offensive" could be added to Commons:General_disclaimer. The closest I see there is "nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise necessary to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information."
Making a multimedia site like this accessible to modem users isn't impossible, but I think a better place to start, rather than user pages, would be the regular category and gallery pages. The example that was given was a user page that had thumbnails of 9 images, whereas category pages show 200 thumbnails at a time by default. I think it's fair to expect low-bandwidth users to selectively load images. NCSA Mosaic (first browser to show images alongside text) had this feature and so do modern browsers. Another commonplace browser feature, as Jmabel said, is the ability to interrupt loading of a page by using the stop button or the use of the escape key.
About Bebop7's user page, it seems like valid content for a user page: it just lists some nine of the user's contributed or edited images, with thumbnails and captions, essentially saying "this is the stuff I've made" or "this is stuff I keep track of." I would expect that filtering software would recognize from the captions on the images that they are about human anatomy and procreation. If a contributor improves Commons' collection of images of genitalia and wants to be recognized for that, I don't see a problem in it. Most of the contributors to Commons don't get paid; recognition is an incentive to continue working. Rybec (talk) 08:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Jmabel, Rybec, and I would think Russ already knows, don't worry about it, it will not have success. This idea is exactly like a cartoon vampire, one of those ones that turns to ash the instant sunlight falls upon it. It could be raised up from the dead somewhere secluded, some quiet talkpage and a few people working evil magic can animate it and use it to annoy a few unsuspecting victims, but as soon as it is exposed to the communities' attention, Fffthhh and it's history.
There is another aspect to this idea that I won't talk about in public, but am happy to discuss with most people via email. At the end of the day, the only thing it needs is a wooden stake with RfC written on it driven through it's cold, dead heart. Penyulap 10:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
a child-safe zone - sorry, but who mentioned children? The wording is images of a graphic violent or sexual nature, or other images which users are likely to not wish to encounter outside of a specific educational context (such as a Wikipedia article) without any warning. Those kinds of media, if they are educational, we should certainly host, but not present to people without context or warning. Unless you're the sort of person who goes around with the goatse image on your T-shirt, you can probably concede that such images exist. All we're asking is that such images not be displayed on userpages. Is that so much to ask? Rd232 (talk) 20:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi, allow me to rephrase: the value and practicality of ensuring that user pages are safe for a general audience, including children and adults with delicate sensibilities, while the rest of the site remains uncensored, is not apparent to me.
I used the term "child-safe" partly for the sake of brevity and partly because the example chosen shows clinical-looking images of human anatomy, of the sort that older children might see in sex education or biology instruction (at least, in the parts of the world where such things are taught). In most Western cultures, I think there would be a concern about small children seeing such photos and diagrams; not so much adults. This kind of imagery abounds on the site, and there are images that even the typical Florida adult may find disturbing, often with little to no context or warning (see the earlier discussion about File:Scrotum.JPG). If the image were released under a free license, I believe it could be hosted here under current policies.
If anything, of the various pages on the site, user pages are among the least likely to be viewed by casual visitors to the site, and more likely to be viewed by regular contributors who should be aware of COM:NOTCENSORED. Contributors and administrators who have delicate sensibilities, or whose career would be ruined by accidentally opening "a gallery of dicks" would be well-advised to browse with automatic image loading off, use filtering software, talk it over with the boss, avoid browsing from work, avoid viewing random user pages or recently uploaded files or uncategorized media, etc. Or the whole site can be censored so they can participate fully without doing these things...suppose while looking through the recent uploads I noticed a blurry photo of a penis. Before reading this thread, I might have requested its deletion with a remark like "out of scope and poor quality" without explicitly warning people that it may be NSFW. I think it is proper for administrators to view images before deleting it: awkward conversation with manager or IT staff ensues?
As an example of the lack of context, file names on this site often don't clearly identify the subject. Some of the following are NSFW or may be disturbing to adults: can you tell which ones without viewing them?
Some file examples
File:Kirloskar Group.jpg
File:Ai Group.jpg
File:Local Group.JPG
File:Girl's best friend.jpg
File:Girl 28.jpg
File:Biker girl.jpg
File:Street Girl's End.jpg
File:Sukumizu Girl.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-9753871150314808.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-33781672385521233.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-7562751534860581.jpg
File:Lead Photo For Special-DonateImage0-5715908450074494.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-7204441225621849.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-029924112604930997.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-9899163385853171.jpg
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-6938995397649705.JPG
File:Lead Photo For DonateImage0-4173831020016223.jpg
File:Achille Devéria Les petits jeux innocens.jpg
File:Márcia Imperator.jpg
File:Marcia Imperator back.jpg
File:Marcia Imperator 2.jpg
File:Marcia Imperator.jpg
File:Saline 3.JPG
File:Saline Ball.jpg
File:Akiba Tolim.jpg
File:Akiba jinja 16.jpg
File:Johnny sack.jpg
Rybec (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
First, you mention In most Western cultures which is interesting, since we are of course trying to encourage contributions from other cultures. Wikimedia outreach might have something to say on the matter. Second, userpages have a particular purpose - namely to identify users and provide information about them that supports communication with them. No amount of whataboutery can justify subverting that purpose, which is ultimately what you're arguing for. And yes, casual visitors may not look at userpages, but new users may well do, particularly if they upload a file and run into problems. If a user tags a file for a problem, or deletes it, a fair proportion of users trying to investigate will end up on a userpage. Many users won't get that far; confronting those that do with entirely unexpected graphic images is unlikely to contribute to the retention ratio, is it? Finally, I don't know what your point is about the filenames, unless it's a "I'm not doing the washing up, people are starving in Africa" sort of non-argument. Rd232 (talk) 01:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Complete nudity

A complete nude, drawn 140 years ago.

Does commons allow images of complete nudity? Because there are some. And it's not appropriate, and not helpful for encouraging people to release their own work on here.--عبد المؤمن (talk) 17:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

The answer is 'yes', but bearing in mind that 'COM:Project scope: the aim of Wikimedia Commons is to provide media realistically useful for an educational purpose', how is a picture of a nude pornstar useful for an educational purpose?--عبد المؤمن (talk) 17:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I am glad you answered your first question with a good answer.
Many images featuring "complete nudity" of the human body are educational based on their medical, sex educational, cultural or historical value. I agree that there are some organizations and people that have concerns about putting their own work on this website where nudity and sex education media exist, but the majority of users believe that censoring all nudity, or just complete nudity, would reduce the overall value of this project. Media without educational value do get routinely and regularly deleted. You are free to raise any image you believe has no educational value, up for deletion review against the scope policy. Thanks -- (talk) 17:37, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
To echo what Fæ says above, there are many, many images of "complete" nudity here. Commons is a project where images of ejaculating penises are of equal value to images of historical treasures. Although there are probably more images of penises. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

The site was invented by Jimbo wales, who as far as I know is a US citizen, it appealed mostly to US citizens and US cultural colonies around the world. It won't ever be able to penetrate as well into other cultures across the world because of it's limitations created by it's structure and scope.

Other websites and projects will flourish as a result of the efforts to 'keep the status Quo'. There are countless editors who try it and find it doesn't suit them. They find that 'what's written on the box' isn't what they find when they get down to trying to contribute. There are already hundreds of other wiki's created by editors who weren't encompassed and included in the wiki community and scope.

Other more successful models will emerge with better structures and some of them will take more seriously the idea of putting knowledge into the hands of everyone across the planet, including the many countries and cultures that don't consider full nudity to be essential to a child's education. I don't bother to assist the project much if at all, for exactly that reason, it's a failure from the start and can't penetrate the society with such an absurd model (from the indo culture point of view, or indian point of view and so on). I see very few Indian editors, Japanese editors, basically anyone with a 'polite' background is positively repelled from this place. Penyulap 18:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it's important to use qualifiers here: Some of the nudity on Commons was uploaded with a legitimate educational purpose and use in mind. Some of the nudity was uploaded without a specific use in mind, but is of high technical quality and does have educational value. The vast majority of the nudity on this project was uploaded with no specific use in mind and is not of high technical quality. These files are uploaded by 1) exhibitionists, and 2) people who upload every piece of nudity that they can find as a social/political statement. How many of this last group are doing this as a political statement specifically against the way that nudity is handled by Commons editors is impossible to know, but undoubtedly that exists. Commons would be much better off if we could encourage the first two groups (specific purpose and no specific purpose but high technical quality), and get rid of the people that fall into the last group (uploading for the sake of uploading). Now, lest you think that I'm a prude, I take much the same attitude towards all types of uploads here. If you replace "nudity" with "cat photos" my statement holds up equally well. Sven Manguard Wha?
Penyulap, if this were run by people with a polite background, you would be bounced from it in a second. The fact that you would say such things and upload the first coprophilia file to Commons is quite a bit hypocritical.
I don't know how you can have an image repository for all the Wikipedias that supports the part of the world that accepts that humans should taught what their own species looks like and doesn't make such files available.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't possibly agree, the most competent and hard-working contributors here all seem quite tolerant to my idiotic antics and art, who was it said 'there are no good and evil people, just charming and tedious'.
crap-to-fill-it-up-what ? is this about the hysteria caused by the exposure of Jimbo's bellybutton ? we have pics of jimbo wearing lipstick that don't cause as much concern. I think it's because there too many rocky-horror-picture-show fans. They don't like babies or toddlers or men and women living together and doing what is natural, they prefer that toy made in the lab of the rocky horror show that had no belly-button at all. Ban the belly button ! Now there is a cause I can get behind, it'd work, and the no nudity fans would be like 'meh' or slightly positive about it too. Penyulap 10:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I see my nude wife almost every day, such things does not disturb me. I saw naked people even more often when I was a child, that did not disturbe me even then. Belive it or not, sometimes I even have sex with my wife, such things does not disturb me either, I enjoy it. But pictures like those in sv:Nanjingmassakern disturb me, they give me nigthmares! I have blocked them, but there are others... -- Lavallen 07:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh that is shocking ! I wear a scuba-diving wetsuit in the shower and haven't seen my naked body, or anyone else's since I was 5. Plus, I never accept links or candy from strangers. There is some site called which had a pic of someone whose face was torn up in a motorcycle accident, looked like mincemeat, they survived apparently. Best to learn not to follow links. There are things you can't un-see. Penyulap 10:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment - I don't see this thread going anywhere. Can I suggest that the question of what to include and what not to include in Commons, and how to police it, is exactly the topic of the current Commons:Requests for comment/scope? Rd232 (talk) 14:23, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation blogpost

Today, on the Wikimedia Foundation blog: “Breaking through walls of text: How we will create a richer Wikimedia experience”.

An interesting read about some future Multimedia projects the Wikimedia Foundation will undertake − and it is always nice to know our awesome project will get more love :)

Jean-Fred (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Geocoding problem

I have a (minor) problem with gecoding. See for example this image where a warning Error: Invalid parameters! appears. I can not find the source of this error. Also clicking on the Google Maps link takes me to the right location (while no mark for the image appears there as it usually should). Is it something with the 'heading' parameter? It works just like that on other images, like this one. Any hint would be appreciated. --Tsui (talk) 20:36, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

  Done Parameter 9 has its elements separated by underscores rather than pipe symbols. Hardly the easiest looking format to use.   -- (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! --Tsui (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

April 10

Costumes vs. clothing

Potentially this is a very politically weighted issue, so I am bringing it here rather than the less-attended Categories for Discussion.

I notice that Category:Native American costumes includes many pictures of what appear to be Native Americans in traditional dress. I believe these should all be moved to Category:Native American clothing, and that the term "costumes" should be reserved, in this context at least," for people who are not Native Americans in traditional dress; e.g. File:Dedication of Chief Seattle statue, 1912.jpg where Seattle civic boosters are dressed as Chinook natives. The two categories should be cross-linked with text explaining this distinction.

There may well be other similar pairs of categories that deserve similar treatment.

Note also Category:Native American dance regalia for the stylized regalia of Native American dance, which may have certain aspects in common with "costumes" but which most Native Americans would consider it an insult to call "costumes". - Jmabel ! talk 14:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd think that native and non-native is a problematic distinction, for example, if you are Japanese and goto Britain and wear ordinary clothes, you'd be wearing a British costume.
I'd suggest that costumes are worn on special occasions or for special purposes and clothing is an everyday thing. That may make it easier to categorise. So the Japanese man would be wearing British clothing, unless it was a special occasion and he and his British hosts all wore traditional clothing, and then they'd all be in costume. That way where there is a crowd you don't need to know who is in the crowd and their ethnic origins, nor make a distinction between the same item being a costume or a piece of clothing depending on who wears it, if it is on a coat hanger, not being worn, what is it ? Penyulap 15:26, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Jmabel -- I think the word "costume" is meant as in Category:National costumes, and not in the sense of Batman outfits... AnonMoos (talk) 15:58, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that category is poorly defined in it's blurb as well, just mixing up the two in a random fashion (get it, fashion?)
Costume better defines something you wear to make you look like something you're not. Dress doesn't, but people (especially men) might avoid using the word 'dress' to describe what they wear everyday, to avoid the ambiguity of being a transvestite. I don't think there is a need to avoid it when referring to mixed groups of people, as it's the dictionary definition. 'national dress' would be less derogatory than 'national costumes', it avoids the transvestite thing by referring to a whole population, and avoids labelling that population as 'silly' which often goes with the concept of 'costume'. Should ask for opinions of grammar and language experts, or consult the best references available. Penyulap 17:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
However, "national costume" seems to be the established standard term. AnonMoos (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Maybe we should go with it then, but if confusion is the standard, time to open the big books and work it out. 'national costume' vs 'national dress' might have different popularity in different parts of the world. I'm definitely more familiar with the latter as the standard everyday dress, national costumes are something schoolchildren might wear on a special occasion. Penyulap 19:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

What about Category:Native American clothing and costumes?? Then an assimilated native American photographed in 1889 dressing up in his old indian clothes for a party won't be argued over which category he belongs in (because he could belong in either). Maybe the key is to not draw such a fine distinction category-wise and instead concentrate on clear image descriptions. Just a thought. – JBarta (talk) 17:20, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

  • AnonMoos (and others): the thing is, in the specific case of Native Americans / American Indians, as I noted above, the term "costume" has enormous potential to give offense, and while "national" works north of the US-Canadian border (where the term "First Nations" is prevalent) it's a bit confusing in the US, where quite a few prefer the term "tribe" (just to make it complicated, a few, such as the Cherokee, definitely prefer "nation"). Whatever we do, I think it is very important that traditional clothing and modern regalia of Native Americans worn by Native Americans not be called "costume", because the term is considered insulting by the people wearing that clothing. It is similar to why we don't use the term "Gypsies" even though it is probably more widely understood than "Roma people": the people it refers to generally find it insulting.
I had no idea Gypsies find the term "Gypsies" offensive. There's just no end to what people will get offended over. Me, I'm offended by being called "really hot" and anything that refers to my unusually high intelligence. Just burns me up to no end. – JBarta (talk) 02:49, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Jbarta, I agree that there is always a bit of a tricky mater in separating "costume" from "clothing", especially in the case of people assimilated to a culture wearing clothing of a culture identified with their past. And maybe the "clothing and costumes" category is the solution, though I'm not sure how it fits our existing hierarchy, and I'm not sure it avoids the issue of offense. I'd really love to have a few Native Americans in this discussion; I am guessing that none of the people who have chimed in are Native American, but correct me if I'm wrong. - Jmabel ! talk 00:04, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Using the term "costume" for Indigenous clothing worn by Indigenous Americans is offensive. The term might have different connotations outside of the US, but within the US, it's not appropriate for traditional Indigenous clothing, especially ceremonial clothing. Category:Native American dance regalia and Category:Native American clothing are sufficient for Native American dress. Category:Clothing of indigenous peoples of the Americas covers all non-US indigenous peoples of the Americas. Other members of WikiProject Greenland could probably speak to the category Category:National costumes of Greenland. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:35, 28 March 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

  • "Garments"? Rybec (talk) 05:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Garments sounds like clothing which no-one is wearing, like laid out in a museum case or table. Penyulap 07:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "Traditional dress"?--Canoe1967 (talk) 12:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Native American traditional dress,
-Native American clothing
-Native American theatrical costumes
-Native American ceremonial dress

Penyulap 12:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Agree with Uyvsdi: To REPEAT: To call Native American traditional clothing a "costume" is VERY Insulting. At pow wows and such, the term "regalia" is the correct word. Otherwise, "clothing" will do just fine. To distinguish what is "traditional" from what is "ceremonial" is a fine line and one that has too much variation from one culture to the next; the information in each individual photo or image can do that bit. This is really a rather critical point; when we are discussing the clothing of Native people of the Americas, at least North America, don't say "costume," period. Now, what to do with junk like File:MGD06JesusSaysBuyMoreArt.jpg where we have white people wearing a dime store headdress and thinking they are dressing up like an Indian, sheesh... can we have Category:Culture vultures for that? ;-) Montanabw (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Looks like a harmless not-planning any mass-murders kind of a person. People who don't bottle it up can be trusted a lot more than those who do, or those who hide it (and divert it) well.
agree, I think it applies to any real people, not just native americans. When I say real people, I mean it's perfectly ok to say 'zombie costumes' or elf/leprechaun/storm trooper costumes. I think the idea that costumes covers a lot of scope including silly and whimsical things produces the effect that the word costume can be used as a derogatory description for the dress of a real people.
I think we could propose not using the word 'costume(s)' to describe the dress of any real people and just use any of the more agreeable alternatives. Penyulap 20:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
On the right general track, maybe instead of "real people" say, "authentic regalia/dress/clothing of a culture group" or something. But yeah, you get the point that's trying to be made here. Zombie costumes or even say, me dressing up like a football player (I'm so not) is a "costume" - someone pretending to be what they aren't. People dressing to emphasize who they ARE (or were, or once were or whatever along those lines) are not in a "costume." yes. Montanabw (talk) 21:22, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
That's the meaning you assign to "costume", but there's ample evidence that not very long ago (and still by some people today), the word "costume" has been used with other meanings... AnonMoos (talk) 23:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The problem is mostly solved. Category:Native American dance regalia‎ is a subcat of Category:Native American clothing, which is simple and neutral. If Category:Native American clothing needs to be further broken down, it can be done so through types of clothing, ala Category:Moccasins. Then Category:Clothing of indigenous peoples of the Americas covers indigenous peoples of the Americas not from the US. Meanwhile, Category:Native American costumes is for people wearing Halloween costumes, Madri Gras Indians, etc. Categorizing by concepts like "traditional," "assimilated," "ceremonial," etc. is way too arbitrary and could not be determined from low-resolution public domain images. People wear t-shirts and jeans to ceremonies all the time. -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

So, back to the image that engendered the question in the first place: File:Dedication of Chief Seattle statue, 1912.jpg: members of the Tilikums of Elttaes, a civic booster group in Seattle who used pseudo-Chinook titles, newspapermen & businessmen wearing what I would call "costumes" (and so categorized in Category:Native American costumes) but I see Montanabw has now recategorized as Category:Native American clothing. I dropped Montanabw a note, haven't heard back... - Jmabel ! talk 05:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and switched it back. Montanabw is totally on the ball but probably accidentally reclassified the picture because it's black and white and the Chilkat blankets look fairly convincing. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Yes, I erred on that one, seeing the black and white image and jumping to conclusions, absent a thorough check. But otherwise, I posted some of these links elsewhere, but they may be helpful: consensus about "costume" seems to be coalescing to define a costume as something you wear when you are pretending to be something other than what you are. Thus, native clothing is NOT a "costume" because it is an expression of who that person actually IS. Thus, traditional or derived-from-traditional Native American clothing IS properly called something other than a "costume." Here are a few examples from multiple geographic areas (there are zillions more if you google): [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], some people consider wearing Native "costumes" to be as racist as white people wearing blackface, and examples, and even the Mardi Gras guys who dress like Indians (some of whom are, actually) don't like the term "costume" for their outfits, either. Montanabw (talk) 16:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Similarly, any ideas on Category:Sami clothing from Lule lappmark and Category:Sami costumes from Lule lappmark, clothing I think would be better than costume here too.--KTo288 (talk) 14:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe use of the word costumes where it relates to the dress of a real people can be changed to 'dressed as' so it's not 'people wearing Japanese costumes', it becomes 'people dressed as Japanese'. As for the US Vs North America thing, eergh, complicated. Penyulap 21:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

What do you think of the copyright status of File:Minesweeper 2013-04-9 21-10.jpg

I didn't want to jump to the deletion request right away, I feel that it may just be considered simple enough design which comes out of the rules of minesweeper, and thus not copyrightable. What do others think? Sinnamon Girl (talk) 03:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I would probably put it locally for less trouble. There are open source minesweeper games, maybe they have some truly free artwork. Penyulap 05:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
It seems to be single-handedly deleted. Shame. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 17:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
There is something of a problem with
  1. The copyright status of the output of non-free software (Minesweeper)
  2. The copyright status of the output of a non-free operating system (in this case Window's window manager, this is definitely less certain)
Even though both in this case are of dubious originality/copyrightability, it's better to be cautious in cases like this. See also COM:SS#Software –⁠moogsi (blah) 23:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Boeing X-45A UCAV.jpg

seems to be working as the thumb on the page Sinnamon Girl (talk) 04:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey folks, not sure what is going on with File:Boeing X-45A UCAV.jpg. I uploaded a higher resolution version, and while the dimensions of the new image are showing, the original thumbnail and downsized image are being used, resulting in a stretched photo. I can't seem to get the purge function to fix it...not sure what to do now. Any suggestions? Huntster (t @ c) 03:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Help:Purge perhaps. Also try to clear the cache of your browser. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 04:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Done and done. Are you seeing any problems (vertical stretching)? I've tried it on three different computers, and all show the same issue, so it is not my browser at issue. Huntster (t @ c) 04:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I've come across stretching before and it usually clears in a day or two, if it is still there in a few days then it's time to worry, but not before. The website software is at fault and it's very very buggy when you do a lot of this kind of thing. Penyulap 04:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
120px does seem to be a little stretched. But that will probably go away. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 04:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Pen. Sinnamon, yeah, newly generated thumbnails will be fine, it's just the thumbnails that have been held over from the original image. Okay, will wait a couple of days or so, see what happens. Thanks. Huntster (t @ c) 04:57, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
It isn't even the thumbs themselves. This is 120px thumb, it has the correct dimensions, but the MW software generates HTML which stretches it, which implies that there's some problem with the database storing incorrect dimensions. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 05:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for reporting this! It's the same problem as bugzilla:46976, I have reported it there in comment 11. Should be fixed once I get hold of an operations team member later today. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 16:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
This should be fixed now thanks to Leslie of the Operations team (I cannot reproduce it anymore). Again thanks for reporting and sorry for the problems. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for such a quick response, and thanks to Leslie for the fix. Huntster (t @ c) 23:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Backstage pass tour/ editathon at Queen Street Mill, Burnley, England

A backstage pass tour and Wikipedia editathon will be held at Queen Street Mill Textile Museum, Burnley, England on 4 May. There will be opportunities for photography, audio- and video- recording. All welcome, but booking is essential, please see Wikipedia:GLAM/QSMM/event. Andy Mabbett (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Event notices are probably more effective if raised as a geonotice requests. Though interesting, they are not really a discussion. Thanks -- (talk) 20:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Commons:Upload vs. Special:Upload

Hi, probably I just did a bad job at searching but how can I set the link "Upload file" on the left to use Special:Upload by default instead of Commons:Upload? In fact I even want to use the basic upload form form but there's a preference to always use it on Special:Upload. -- Patrick87 (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you not simply bookmark in your browser any upload page you want? – JBarta (talk) 18:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but the "Upload file" button on the left is always at my hands while I'd have to search the bookmark first. Furthermore it doesn't really make sense to create a bookmark for every action I want to perform on Wikipedia/Commons. Exposing those is the job of the Mediawiki UI. -- Patrick87 (talk) 19:29, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I put a link at the top of my talk page in my notes section. If you speak other languages you my wish to deal with the Leona H. issue there as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Try putting the following into your vector.js or common.js:
var d = document.getElementById("n-uploadbtn");
d.innerHTML = d.innerHTML.replace("Commons:Upload", "Special:Upload");
MKFI (talk) 21:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, this works fine. Sadly without the gadget ImprovedUploadForm the preview butoon is missing from the (then basic) upload form. Therefore it seems I still need the gadget but have to use the URL which makes the JavaScript slightly less clean but works nonetheless:
var d = document.getElementById("n-uploadbtn");
d.innerHTML = d.innerHTML.replace("wiki/Commons:Upload", "w/index.php?title=Special:Upload&uploadformstyle=basic");
Thanks for this!
One further question: Is it possible to hide the help from the Upload page? That means all the stuff like "It's all about freedom" and "Describing your uploads"? -- Patrick87 (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Merging {{Tl}} with {{Tlx}}

Please read this discussion and comment. --Ricordisamoa 19:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Where are we supposed to look for category renames?

I have an image in my history that says "Robot: Moving category Birth and childhood of Jesus to Birth and childhood of Jesus Christ". I went looking for why this neutral category name was changed to one less neutral, but could find no link to discussion, no talk pages for either or these categories. Should I suspect that this was unilateral action by Foroa, or am I not finding where this would be discussed?--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Supposedly COM:CFD, although in many cases harmonizing names across the category tree is done without discussion –⁠moogsi (blah) 01:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
@Prosfilaes, as a long-term user you should know that for cat-names on Commons political correctness is far less important than effectiveness in achieving the purpose of categories. Besides, if you scan through the lemma-names in the Wikipedias, you will find "Jesus Christ" and its other-language equivalents still the most common. "Jesus of Nazareth" would be another possibility. But, "Jesus" alone is ambiguous, as it is/was also a not so rarely used name in romanic countries. --Túrelio (talk) 06:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Then why is Category:Katherine Hull still a mess?--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
"Jesus of Nazareth" is not ambiguous. And I don't think it unreasonable to expect some note somewhere be left on why a change was done. Instead, all I get was "Foroa (talk | contribs) deleted page Category:Birth and childhood of Jesus (Moved to Category:Birth and childhood of Jesus Christ.)" We encourage people to use edit summaries; surely changes on hundreds of files deserve at least that, particularly undiscussed ones.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
As you can for example see here], User:Smuconlaw did already a very good job in harmonising the countless Jesus/Jezus Christ/Nazareth combinations in the names to one single name. As should be done, he took the name of the root category Category:Jesus Christ to harmonise a substantial part of the names. I will check if we can make SieBot to auto generate a "Harmonisation" summary, as this is the reason for moving around 10000 categories per year. --Foroa (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Turelio Prosfilaes that non evident category renames should be anounced and discussed somehow. A message in category talk page could be a good starting point.
A policy about category names would be very useful, too.--Pere prlpz (talk) 09:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
@Pere, you surely meant to refer to Prosfilaes instead of me. --Túrelio (talk) 09:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I did. Thank you for pointing.--Pere prlpz (talk) 12:15, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello, somebody uses this script? To load images by means of at me it turns out, and this bot it is impossible.

C:\Python26\pywikipedia> -set:15905961 -addcategory
What category do you want to add? Magnitogorsk
Finished running
Total photos: 0
Uploaded photos: 0


And so always, what photo of any license of any user I wouldn't try to load. I can't load any photo though I choose only under free licenses. Perhaps correct work of the bot requires something additional? I checked, it seems I did everything as is written to instructions. Thanks.--Анима 09:50, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

In your example, you're specifying -set:15905961. According to the documentation, the set parameter refers to the user ID, but there is no user with that ID. (There is, however, a photo with that ID.) LX (talk, contribs) 15:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry. But even if to enter user_id of the image aren't loaded:

C:\Python26\pywikipedia> -set:7604686 -addcategory
What category do you want to add? Testing
Finished running
Total photos: 0
Uploaded photos: 0


7604686 is my account. Free license. But it is impossible to load the image all the same. Thanks.--Анима 18:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Mobile Web Uploads turned off in stable

In case people missed the announcement - the mobile web team has removed the upload lead image feature from stable for anonymous users, so it will be available only to users who specifically log inopt in to the beta. Uploads should be back to pre-April 4 levels, and you can track them on the mobile reportcard. Thanks. YuviPanda (WMF) (talk) 07:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Just a correction - it has been turned off for logged out users in stable, available only for logged in users. Fly out menu based uploads are still available in stable. Upload volume should still reduce drastically, however. Updated above to reflect. Thanks. Yuvipanda (talk) 08:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 07:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I note that Faebot has not added any mobile uploaded images to the Category:Mobile uploads lacking EXIF data categories in the hour since this change. I strongly commend investigating options such as my experiment with Category:Mobile uploads lacking EXIF data and with multiple Tineye matches‎, which turned out to have an apparent 100% success rate in finding images that were copyright violations - certainly a similar routine that checked the number of matching images on the (free and unlimited) Google image search facility for identical images but with size variations would be a useful feature, even if it only added a warning template to the top of image pages with 2 or more images found. If WMF dev does not test something similar, then I may get around to hacking it next month; for fun. Addendum based on Faebot's timesheet this morning, the 'non-EXIF' matches have reduced to something like 1/10th of what they were. I have extended the cycle time to making checks every 2 hours rather than less than an hour. Thanks -- (talk) 07:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
    • That's rather good. And it's exactly the sort of automated usefulness we need more of. Rd232 (talk) 08:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Yep, the devs have started looking into the EXIF data check, and it appears that there are some existing Javascript libraries we can use to do this pre-upload. We'll start work on building out some sort of pre-upload gate-check/confirmation notice for uploads missing EXIF data in our upcoming iteration. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 18:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
      Good news. There's a lot of value to be gained by data-mining the EXIF data intelligently at the time of mobile upload, particularly spotting odd inconsistencies, such as incompatible licence declarations and then usefully alerting the user (a simple "are you sure?" with a "click here to learn more" would go a long way to avoiding copyright violations). I look forward to seeing some early test results being publicised. Thanks -- (talk) 19:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Will definitely let you know the impact this has once it's deployed. I'm going to overhaul the now somewhat outdated uploads page and add an R&D section to house stats on mobile upload quality, deletion rates, etc. I can post periodic updates here, too, since it looks like there are quite a few interested parties :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, please. My rough figures of the files in Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web are as follows: about 1,500 uploads. About 1,000 have been already deleted. About 100 are under deletion request process. About 200 don't have source or permission and will be deleted. About 190 files are linked from articles (but many of them will be deleted since its source or permission are dubious). No more than other additional 50 files are categorized... That is, only about 15% of the uploads are useful somehow. And it has taken a lot of time and effort, verifying each upload with tineye or google images, opening deletion requests, closing them... I wouldn't define this service as a success --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 13:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Here's what I just got from the database (pulled out all mobile web uploads, then all deleted mobile web uploads + reason for deletion, then did some simple grepping for copyvio and scope):
Looks like about a quarter of the files are still there, and about half were deleted for copyvio. There are raw numbers and some more stats tables here. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 17:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Some hand-made statistics from the files in Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web (453):
  1. Images used in articles, categorized and with no known issues: 41 (2%)
  2. Images used in articles, categorized, but with issues (usually lack of sources or permission): 4 (0.2%)
  3. Images used in articles, not categorized, with no known issues: 66 (3.4%)
  4. Images used in articles, not categorized, but with issues: 50 (2.5%)
  5. Images not used in articles, categorized and with no known issues: 57 (2.9%)
  6. Images not used in articles, categorized, but with issues (usually lack of sources or permission): 5 (0.3%)
  7. Images not used in articles, not categorized, with no known issues: 91 (4.6%)
  8. Images not used in articles, not categorized, but with issues: 139 (7%)
Most of the images in items 2, 4, 6 and 8 will be deleted. Images in item 7 are mostly useless as lack enough information to determine what they could illustrate. That is, from the 23% that you mention as kept about 9% will be deleted and 4% is useless. That leaves a 10%. Not impressive. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 22:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for doing it, and thanks for announcing in this way. (There were concerns about "spamming" mentioned by WMF; we'll let you know if too many announcements become a problem...) Rd232 (talk) 08:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

A typical MobileUpload-image: File:It means fun♥♥ 2013-04-11 14-08.jpg, harmless, useless and the filename says it all ;-) . --Túrelio (talk) 12:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Works from Commons put on paysites

Old revision of File:Arms of Ordo cisterciensis.svg.

Is stolen from File:Coat of Arms of the Republic of Venice.svg

Is stolen from File:Coat of arms of Curaçao.svg

There are a lot of other stolen images, from page 10 onwards on this profile. While commercial use is allowed, this is simply plagiarism.

What can be done against this? Lemmens, Tom (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a result of only commercial licenses being permitted on Commons. Nothing we can do about that. FunkMonk (talk) 15:50, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually this is copyright infringement" The files on Commons are licensed with a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC BY-SA) license. That means they can be used on the linked website (even commercially) but the original author has to be attributed and the files have to be published with a compatible license (and only CC BY-SA licenses are compatible). -- Patrick87 (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The hoster seems to be located in Germany[12], meaning there is no DMCA excuse, they are fully liable to litigation by the copyright holders. Getty Images agency once won 10,000 € for unlicensed use of 6 of their images by a company in Germany[13]. --Túrelio (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
If you simply contact the website and show them your proof, they might suspend the account of the user who uploaded. That's something any user can do, you don't need to be the owner. You only need to be the owner if you want to start with claims and lawsuits. TheDJ (talk) 11:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, depends. At least in Germany this might be troubled water, as per law[14] not everybody is entitled to give legal advice. --Túrelio (talk) 12:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

not caring works for me. (feel free to hit me, it was worth it)

You'd need to be the owner, and have deep pockets to start off a case against them. You could look at their payment options and approach those companies with a short case that they are selling stolen property. Penyulap 16:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

CC licenses are not really free. For use of the image the user must ask how the author wants to be attributed the image, and the author´s conditions must be met, even if she/he requires watermars, links to her/his site, etc. You can send a cease and desist letter and you can report the site and have it take it down. Legitimate users will always comply, and ask before hand how the author wants the attribution. Legitimate ignorant users will take the images down, or attribute the image appropriately, or even pay for the use if they do not want to comply with the attribution requirements. Ilegitimate users, well, if you have the time, the resources and the will to fight a long battle with uncertain results... But it is always a good idea to educate the people on the attribution requirement. I put a notice on my images informing possible users of the attribution. That is really all we can do, and hope for users of good faith. Possible misuse or lack of attribution are inherent dangers of uploading here, so one must must decide between sharing for the common good with the possibility of non attribution or play it safe and don´t upload. In anycase, as a photographer, I have found Commons to be a good venue to be known to the world, and the cost has been a few dishonest (and a lot of ignorants) using my images without attribution. --Tomascastelazo (talk) 03:23, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

There is too much attribution, a site that attributes a commons image to 'Penyulap', but I never uploaded that image, and here is a nice site and a lovely pic which I didn't take, but simply cropped. What do you do when people give you too much credit ? can I ask them to stop ? Can I give you some of the excess amounts that I get :D I would if I could. Penyulap 09:05, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
You could stop uploading copyright infringements like the otters to Commons, that's what you could do. (Yes, it is a copyright infringement when you remove the author's name from a CC-BY-SA image.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Nowadays people are much concerned about if their works are commercially reused and try all efforts to stop it. But unfortunately it results in the failure the achievement of the Common's goal. We should have to educate people that Common is for free contribution including commercial reuse; anybody can simply walkout if they can co-operate with it instead of spoiling the system. I've much hope in the new proposal. JKadavoor Jee 13:23, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
No one ever properly attributes works from Commons; the best you can usually hope for is for them to get attributed to "Wikipedia" and a link back to the image page on Wikipedia. I think people would be much calmer about commercial works if they weren't fairly consistently so lazy. But we see from Penyulap's examples, many on Commons aren't any better.--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
I found this image of mine with correct attribution so at least one site is following the rules. The CC site has a list of lawyers and you may wish to contact them to see if they want to take it on pro bono. They would get their % and the more users they can contact and sign on then the bigger the pie to split. has a few listed.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:57, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

April 12

Image with useless borders

There is two similar images: with useless borders and without borders & cropped. I think the one with borders could be deleted. It is ok to nominate the image with borders for deletion or to use superseded/dublicate tags? --Kulmalukko (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

probably good to keep both, as it is possible to get a more greedy crop from the original, to include the aquatic plants in the foreground. Penyulap 10:32, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. --Kulmalukko (talk) 10:36, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi all, I've written a very short guide about how to include wikilinks from the ones stored in wikidata in commons galleries and categories. It's in Spanish and can be found here. Would it be useful to have it in Commons:Wikidata (translated into English, of course)? If deemed useful, I'd like to have a skilled translator doing the work of translating it into English. Opinions? --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 14:10, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment: Screenshots with no or little photographic content should be uploaded as PNG, not as JPEG. JPEG compression artifacts are just ugly. --Leyo 16:19, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment Thanks. Beside that (I'll try to do it as you suggest), have you got any other suggestion? Best regards --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 23:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

  • The "Here" above is a dead link. - Jmabel ! talk 05:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Apparently speedy-deleted at user request. Anyone care to explain what's going on here? - Jmabel ! talk 05:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Ecemaml is on a break, so pages they made are... also on a break? –⁠moogsi (blah) 06:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Leave sepia or grayscale?

With files like: File:Malachi Throne Ida Lupino It Takes a thief 1968 crop.jpg should be left as sepia or grayscaled? There may be a guideline somewhere but I couldn't find it. Thoughts?--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

If you feel that a grayscaled version would look better in an article, feel free to create one but I would suggest not overwriting the original. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Greyscaling is always indicated where there's distracting false color (e.g. File:Conquistador Pedro de Alvarado.JPG). A uniform sepia is much less problematic. AnonMoos (talk) 02:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


Hello!i have the permissions of the artist and the newspaper for pulication items that you have deleted. To whom should I send?--Ceceroni (talk) 20:32, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

To (OTRS). However, next time ask the admin, who notified you, directly. --Túrelio (talk) 20:40, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

April 13

Daily purge

Could someone set up a bot or script that purges the main page every day at UTC 00:01 to refresh the POTD and MOTD? —Mono 01:01, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Commons Android application beta - feedback needed!

Hello everyone! The Wikimedia Commons App for Android beta 7 was released a couple of days ago (Install link). This is a native mobile app, not the mobile web which released an upload image feature a few days ago. If you have an Android device (2.3+), please do install it and give us feedback! We iterate fast - one release every week, so the earlier we can get your feedback the better :)

Current situation: We've not really been publicizing the apps that much, and despite that the Android app has had more than a 1000 images uploaded using it. We're targeting the app at existing Commons users, so the quality of contributions have also been 'not bad' - ~10% deletion rate, and that includes Test images. And unlike mobile web, there is little risk of Commons being flooded with low quality images / copyvios - there is no user registration, so only people who already have a Commons account can use the app.

Future plans: We're planning on setting up a Watchlist notice on enwiki and commonswiki about the App sometime next week. Since we're putting it only on the watchlist notice where usually only experienced editors see it - should not cause too many issues. A tutorial explaining to users what is commons and what is acceptable / not acceptable is being developed to be included with the app. We will not enable new user registration on the app until the tutorial is done and tested.

Feedback!: Test the app out on your device! You can leave your comments here, and I'll triage them and create bugs appropriately. Looking forward to help increase the number of undeleted mobile uploads to commons :) YuviPanda (WMF) (talk) 05:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

4am Project

Some of you will be interested in the 4am project, whose aim is "to gather a collection of photos from around the world at the magical time of 4am". The next, global, activity is on 14 April. Andy Mabbett (talk) 11:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

EBay as source?

Several images were uploaded and sourced to EBay. I opened a deletion discussion on one, and the others were mentioned by another editor in the course of the discussion. The uploader claimed they were PD and from the Library of Congress, but made no effort to update the links, and left off information on the artists that the sellers actually had included. To me, the images have obvious color retouches, aside from being lifted from a seller's page to boot, and thus aren't PD licensable.

I saw nothing in the archive recently that indicated that EBay was acceptable as a PD image site, but the deletion discussion was closed after two days (which is almost unheard of on Commons anyway). I also felt I had found a scope issue that was left unresolved. On inquiry, the closing admin considered the discussion finished.

However, the crux of the matter is that to me, EBay is a commercial site made to sell goods, and thus isn't CC-BY-SA compatible unless the sellers release their photos, but that's not what they're there for, so why would they? So what does this fall under? MSJapan (talk) 21:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

First of all, if the picture is a faithful reproduction, it does not matter who made the reproduction as regards copyright. This is the Bridgeman vs Corel that people keep mentioning. This reasoning is also visible in {{PD-scan}}, which asserts that any restoration that has been done is not original enough to attach copyright. See Commons:When to use the PD-scan tag. –⁠moogsi (blah) 21:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I thought that in some countries you can copyright a reproduction of a pd image. Penyulap 21:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes - see Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs. The UK is probably the most significant example of "definitely can copyright a well-made reproduction made via photography". (Many other countries it's less clear.) However, if you're talking about mere mechanical copying (unenhanced scan of a 2D PD work), that's never copyrightable AFAIK. Rd232 (talk) 22:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I meant it doesn't matter as far as Commons is concerned. Your mileage may vary depending on location –⁠moogsi (blah) 23:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
eBay may be a source of images, but it's not a good source of information for establishing whether or not a photo is in the public domain, or not. My understanding is that unless other reliable information regarding the licencing is referenced then the image should be deleted. Danrok (talk) 17:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

eBay is a bad source, even images which are definitely in the PD need a trustworthy source to be useful for encyclopedic usage. --Polarlys (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

eBay's not a great site, but given that we take individual submissions, I don't see why eBay is that problematic. The no-notice photographs are problematic, but they wouldn't be any less problematic if we had some user directly scanning them. If we can clearly ascertain that a file on eBay is a copy of a PD source, it's fine. (Our scope is "educational", not "encyclopedic", and again, there's a lot less trustworthy sources here.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

April 11

Commons Statute of limitations

I'm wondering if we can have it written down, drafted as a guideline, that the community doesn't care about certain misdeeds after a period of time. This does make a lot of sense, as there is often a problem of hounding that goes on, where old mistakes are never forgotten, I think we could propose a guideline, or obviously an essay, to help guide people in knowing when to forget. Penyulap 07:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that it is not about "misdeeds after a period of time", but rather about a current state of events being more important than other things. Community is built not by punishing everybody for ever misadventure, but by creating a culture where people feel like they are doing something important. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 08:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
(to Sinnamon) True. I find people don't focus on the project, but get tied up with silly things, for example, someone apologises and has clearly changed, but people want to bring it up ad-nausea. A lot of what makes a community work properly is simple first-nature (not even second-nature) to many people, but to others, it seems to need guidance. I find there are people who just 'get it' and people who have trouble wondering why everyone is not on the same page as they are, maybe a guide like the guides for taking pics and copyright, that sort of thing, for basic conflict resolution, to help guide people through a possibly unfamiliar process. (I honestly think that where a RL process in some countries involves handguns, and that same process is applied to wiki, obviously it cannot work. So the process used in countries where people realise they must live together, that kind of process could help guide people in dispute resolution.) Penyulap 09:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Good Lord I can't believe some of the nonsense I see written in these various Village Pump pages. It's never ending diarrhea of childish nonsensical crap with same characters appearing over and over and over. And Penyulap... you really need to find something useful to do around here. You're all over these pages like a bad case of BO. Damn this is a pitiful crowd. – JBarta (talk) 08:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Jbarta, if you absolutely can't let a polite word pass from your mouth to the page, please be so kind as to place your personal attack comment in a place that it does not appear as though I agree with it. 123 Penyulap 11:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The placement of the comment was fine and proper. It was you who insisted on moving things around repeatedly. – JBarta (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Jbarta, you're quite free to ignore discussions that don't interest you. In any case, please avoid gratuitous insult. Rd232 (talk) 14:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
It does interest me... that's the problem I guess. I can't help but care what goes on around here. It's why I've been contributing for all these years. Maybe more of the adults in the room ought to speak up as well. – JBarta (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Then don't make personal attacks, especially if you believe you're an adult. Do it again and be blocked. -FASTILY 19:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
While my language was a little rough, your statement here is an example of some of the backwards priorities around here. As an admin, if you were as eager to elevate (or eliminate) some of the nonsense in these pages as you are to threaten me with a block, we'd all be better off IMO. That said, I'll try to lighten up my comments. Better yet, I'll go back to more useful and welcome contributing. (then again, as things go, maybe I should just settle for useful...) – JBarta (talk) 19:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment I don't know whether the proposal is serious or not... but if it is, it might make sense as an essay, talking about principles, but I find it hard to imagine it as a guideline. The basic idea that things that are long past are less important than things that are recent is common sense, but turning that into actionable guideline about how to weigh things up ("X is OK to ignore after Y years, unless something in category Z has happened since then...") is probably more trouble than it's worth. Rd232 (talk) 14:48, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is a serious proposal. As you well know right now, there is a lot of support for ignoring the most serious offences people can imagine, so it is the perfect time to have some guidelines written down. Strike while the iron is hot and all that, rather than waiting until nobody is interested in helping with the new rules.
Sure, it may not make sense at first, same as some of our copyright policies are just crazy, like the Australian aboriginal flag, two colours with a circle, not being allowed on commons, you get used to these new ideas and uphold them, same as any other rules. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them or even that they make the least bit of sense, but it helps to have them written down, so fights don't break out with newbies. Penyulap 20:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
"there is a lot of support for ignoring the most serious offences people can imagine" Uh, do you have an example or two? I'm still unable to figure out whether there's any sarcasm I'm missing. --Conti| 20:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, to answer the question you ask, I don't know of any open discussion on the issue, but there was a recent discussion here where voting fraud on commons received popular support, that being the case, then if we have some definite time-frame, then there are commercial opportunities for people who want to make admin accounts, or give them as gifts, I think this would be a little like the flag, strange at first, but acceptable after a while. I mean, a black and red flag, but if you put a yellow circle on it, it becomes copyright. Penyulap 21:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

/NOTES/Шуйская (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

How can I do a "multiple" notes?Шуйская (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I discussed this with Шуйская on their talkpage, and thought I'd found it, but this one is too tricky for a dunce like me to resolved the matter. Penyulap 00:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I talked to the higher-ups, I know people ;) ..ones who know templates (uh-har). We don't have an appropriate template to suit the task required is seems. Penyulap 09:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

OK to advertise here?

Is it OK to advertise here? In the Seano page I found this:

 :Le foto delle sculture dello scultore Seanese Quinto Martini le puoi trovare sul mio sito flickr
 :the photos of the scultures by the scultor from Seano Quinto Martini are on flickr
{ }

The photos are indeed on flickr, along with an invitation to apply to license them from the owner. As far as I know that's fine on flickr, but I'm less than convinced that the photographer should be advertising his wares on Commons. Apologies if I'm wrong (again!) on this. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the edit-history, it seems that the user who created this gallery had meant it as a sort of userpage gallery, which is it not. I have now removed the link to Flickr and the now meaningless hint to the sculptures by Quinto Martini. Not a big issue, but still inappropriate IMO. --Túrelio (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

April 14

I want to know, the pictures I uploaded "Angry Birds Space Screenshots.png" where infringing?

You said you wanted a free software cross-sectional diagram can be considered free screenshot.Angry Birds Space is free, should not be considered infringement.(I'm sorry, my English is not good)--Yanteng3 (talk) 09:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Software being free to use and having copyright free re-use are two different things, easy to be confused. Angry Birds is '© 2013 Rovio Entertainment Ltd.' and appears to have all rights reserved. This means that no screen shots with meaningful creative content can be released by others on a free re-use licence, as this fails to respect the producer's/creator's reservation of rights. Thanks -- (talk) 09:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I know, thanks for your answers, next time I will not upload infringing pictures!--Yanteng3 (talk) 12:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Notification of DMCA takedown

Please be aware that I have executed a takedown under the DMCA. The takedown is recorded at Commons:Office_actions/DMCA_notices#El_caballero_de_la_armadura_oxidada. Thank you. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 07:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification here. It seems about es:El caballero de la armadura oxidada by Robert Fisher. Given it was a PDF (File:El caballero de la armadura oxidada.pdf), I think the uploader, (who was active at Commons only and did only upload this pdf,) uploaded the whole novel. -- Rillke(q?) 09:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Indeed it is. We really need more people on new-upload patrolling. This is so obvious a copyvio that the only possible reason it hadn't been deleted is that no one saw it. -- King of ♠ 23:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Or less uploads or we (and the WMF) starts preferring quality over quantity. -- Rillke(q?) 20:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Browser Issue?

Is anyone having difficulty with Upload Wizard and a few other features using Firefox (but in Chrome it all works)? I want to figure out if it's a system thing or my computer. Thanks--Godot13 (talk) 00:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

If you could elaborate on "difficulty", somebody might answer. :) --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 11:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I was about to ask the same question (for MS Internet Explorer): the Upload Wizard just doesn't load. Highly frustrating... :( MartinD (talk) 07:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Not sure whether this is the same issue, but I recently filed a bug at Bugzilla on a similar problem I've been facing. You may want to register a Bugzilla account (if you don't already have one) and provide feedback there. — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Восток - cyrillic rendering bug?

I paste BOCTOK (Vostok) into the text field and then see BOCMOK rendered. If I mark&copy that, I find BOCTOK again in the clipboard. Compare the headline with the source of this post.

Is that just my Win7/Firefox browser?- Mkratz (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Probably it's the font you're using in your browser. Cyrillic Т/т (that is, the analogue of Latin T/t) looks exactly like Latin M/m in some fonts (particularly in the italic variants and those which emulate cursive—see Russian cursive). —Psychonaut (talk) 16:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Восток is merely the italics form of "Восток". Your computer is fine. 16:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Bhavana Mal Actress.jpg

Please take a look at the discussion, Commons:Valued image candidates/Bhavana Mal Actress.jpg. Is it fine, if this is the same image but improved by the new uploader? I don't know what is the correct procedure here. JKadavoor Jee 18:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

In general people are welcome to improve images, but I'm not sure in which exact context you wonder whether this is "fine" here. Could you elaborate? --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 10:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
The source seems very small compared to the last upload. Any way it is now under DR. JKadavoor Jee 13:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

April 15


User:NemesisIII recently added Category:Taken with Nikon Coolpix P50 to several dozen of my photos that were, indeed, taken with this relatively cheap compact camera. I would not normally add a category to my uploads indicating what camera the photo was taken with; I'm not really interested in advertising a brand prominently in association with my photos, which seems to be the main effect of this. I can't really see much other use for the category. If someone really needs to know what my picture was take with, it's in the EXIF data.

What is the purpose of such a category? Was NemesisIII correct to add this to my photos? If so, and if this category is considered desirable on all such photos, why don't we just have a bot that pulls it from the EXIF data? - Jmabel ! talk 16:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Further, I notice that some of my images have been miscategorized in this respect. For example, I took File:Georgetown PowerPlant Museum 140.jpg with my Nikon D5000, as can be verified from the EXIF data, but has been placed in Category:Photos taken with Nikon Coolpix cameras. A D5000 DSLR is not a Coolpix. Normally, I try to make sure that content related to my photos that has been edited by other people remains accurate, but I am absolutely not willing to go through my photos and see which of these have been accurately tagged and which inaccurately. - Jmabel ! talk 16:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
(Sorry for my bad English) It is not advertising, actually I don't think this camera is especially good (this is my camera), but I thought it was interesting to be able to find easily all the pictures made by the same camera; because it is impossible to search in EXIF data with Commons. That's all. I will check if I made mistakes, sorry. Nemesis III (discuter) 16:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Interesting it may be, but is it actually useful for any purpose which serves our project's scope? If not, then you should consider whether maintaining this categorization scheme isn't more trouble than it's worth. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
And are uncategorized and without description photos useful? Do they serve our project's scope? So, when I categorize photos, it's useless. OK. Thanks. Nemesis III (discuter) 16:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the categorization is indeed useless. I was asking what use it serves. Perhaps you could explain. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
It is impossible to find photos thanks to their EXIF data in Commons (why? Google can). So it is the only way to compare pictures taken with the same model of camera, and I think it could possibly used in Wikipedia. Some cameras have a page on Wikipedia, it could be possible to add a link to the category with all the pictures taken with this model of camera (for example en:Nikon D5000). Nemesis III (discuter) 16:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
The most obvious use is to provide an objective source of examples of the performance and capabilities of the various cameras. Dankarl (talk) 17:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Ask the same question of Category:Photographs by camera and its quadrillion subcats. If you dare –⁠moogsi (blah) 17:24, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

If you think it's useful, and you aren't interested in putting together a bot to do it from the EXIF data, would you please be careful to do it accurately? In exactly three that I bothered checking, I found one wrong (as noted above), so it's unlikely to be the only one that's wrong. - Jmabel ! talk 17:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Everyone can make a mistake. And I have removed all the pictures I put in the Category:Photos taken with Nikon Coolpix cameras, so I think that everything is correctly categorized now. Nemesis III (discuter) 18:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

NemesisIII, I'd recommend bring it up at Commons:Categories for discussion, you'll get people with more experience offering advice there. It is the best place to start a discussion of this type. Penyulap 22:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, but, finally, I won't have the time to do it this week. I will ask later. Nemesis III (discuter) 21:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Flickr Upload Bot

The bot has been slow and difficult to connect to for a couple days, and when I managed to get it to run once it did not upload the picture so I had to complete manually. Not connecting any better today so I hesitate to use it. Is this a known issue? Dankarl (talk) 14:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

See ? --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I used the Flickr upload bot yesterday and also encountered intermittent issues. On a number of occasions there were server connection errors, and I had to reload web pages several times to get the bot to work. Not sure if this has been reported yet. Feedback concerning the bot should be reported at "User talk:Bryan", but I don't see any messages about this issue on the page yet. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay I posted at user talk:Bryan but since he's not active and this seems maybe more like a system than a coding issue, what next? Dankarl (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I use it only works for singles and you have to have a copy on your hard drive.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Not sure what else can be done apart from notifying Bryan; guess you will have to use Flinfo as suggested by Canoe1967 or manually upload images. Hopefully this is a transient server issue that will be resolved shortly. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

April 16

Request for mass Flickr upload

I tried using the Flickr upload tool to get this powerful set of 147 photos from the w:2013 Boston Marathon bombings, but the Upload Wizard Flickr tool only takes the first 50. Could someone upload the whole set?--ragesoss (talk) 03:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

They're in Category:Files from Aaron Tang Flickr stream (only pictures after the blasts though) –⁠moogsi (blah) 12:44, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Idea: Requests for subtitling audio files/videos and/or requests for filming of sign language

Photo collages

A question has been brought up about the copyright status of photo collages. For example, here is an image[15] of a mammoth created by stitching together photo elements of fur. Does de minimis[16] apply in this case? The "template" for the mammoth is original, and the arrangement of fur is too, but individual clusters of fur were taken from some unidentified images. In this image[17], the individual elements are even clearer, since it is more photo realistic. We have a lot more images on Commons by these two authors. To me, it seems de minimis applies, but I'd like some more opinions. FunkMonk (talk) 12:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't see it as a problem to use copyright textures, I don't, I avoid it wherever possible, but I have given it a great deal of thought. Besides that, you can often get the images you want for free if you improve your image search abilities, it is a skill same as drawing is a skill.
The deminimus (DM) thing is easy to understand. If the amount you use from the source image is a trivial amount of the final work, it's DM. The other is if you have changed the source image so much that it is no longer suitable for the original purpose.
The other thing to do is think of images the same way you think of text, you need to change things so much that it's clearly not the same as the source. If it is too close, then it's problem.
Sorry if my response is of poor quality, I might re-write it later so it is less ambiguous. Penyulap 13:05, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
What you say is pretty much what I've concluded too. But perhaps there are other opinions. FunkMonk (talk) 13:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree with User:Penyulap here (first time for everything). I also wonder if texture samples are not mostly {{PD-ineligible}}. I create them from time to time and the process is not very creative. --Jarekt (talk) 13:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Stay calm everyone, I'll retract what I said before. :) Penyulap 13:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

April 17

Right to left support for Template:Closed cap (Arabic, Persian, Hebrew, others)

For Template:Closed cap how does one properly align the template so that Arabic, Persian, Hebrew, etc. displays right to left? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Can you give an example? When does it not display correctly? –⁠moogsi (blah) 21:16, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The same pictures, but not duplicate?

Is there policy what to do for the images which look visually exactly the same, but which are different shots, not actually duplicates? I think there is no reason to keep the images which are visually the same. (Too many same images makes it harder to browse a category.) Check the Toledo Bridge category. For example these images ([18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23]) are visually the same, and no difference may be detected by an eye. --Kulmalukko (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

File a regular DR (not speedy). --Túrelio (talk) 09:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. --Kulmalukko (talk) 09:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Search for old files with no licenses

I occasionally run into files like File:Remigio Mendiburu Txoria1.jpg or File:三星堆 珍寶 玉璧 牙璋 斧鋤器 157.jpg that never had a license of any sort but linger around Commons for years unnoticed. It seems like if an image slips through our after upload checks than it is very hard to catch it again if it has any problems. Lately I started searching for such images, by using User:Jarekt/CatScan2-no license.js script and adding images I find to Category:Media without a license: needs history check. There is a group of hard working users trying to either add a license or {{No license}} templates to those images; however we can use more help of experienced users. I also filed a request for database query of the whole Commons for files missing licenses. Unfortunately database query service seems to have stopped helping with requests, so if anybody has toolserver database access I would appreciable help ruining this query. --Jarekt (talk) 13:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Guideline for transliteration?

We generally deal with many proper nouns across many languages in the category system. In the case of Russian it's pretty clear we use the Wikipedia system (w:Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian). What got me thinking is a user requesting the renaming of Belarusian toponyms e.g. Category:Shchuchyn district (w:Shchuchyn) to "Ščučyn". I don't have any objections to this sort of change per se, but... is there any guideline on this or should we just go for "copy Wikipedia", which would appear to be simpler because presumably someone has already thought it through at some point. Probably? Or would it be simpler just to say "leave it as it is and use redirects", because potentially thousands of categories have been created without any guidance. I can't even tell which system is primarily used (in the case of the user above it is being changed to National 2007 (see w:Romanization of Belarusian)).

This is of course a general question which applies to any language which needs transliteration. Is it just waaaay too late to offer guidelines on this? –⁠moogsi (blah) 14:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The problem you are referencing to is probably related to the differences of Belarussian and Russian naming. We have this problem often in areas of the former USSR where there are Russian enclaves (Ex Kharkiv/Kharkov).
Anyway, in general, we leave the naming discussions to the en:wikipedia and we follow when they made up their mind (and it is stable). For some languages like Hebrew, I don't have seen a unique rule, so often, there are several opinions, so there, we have even more reasons to follow wikipedia. --Foroa (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Transliteration is a messy issue, I knew once a Russian who's passport used different transliteration than his International driver's license, since both documents were issued in different years, or may be because one was issued by Russia and the other by Belarus. Here on Commons I usually go by spelling used in English Wiki article (if exist), or use counts of Google articles returned with two or more alternative spellings. It seems like many categories follow German Wiki spelling which is almost always very different than English. --Jarekt (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
de:Liste_der_Städte_in_Weißrussland gives an idea what variations you might see and what to expect. About 70 categories where tagged with {{Bad name}}; this template is intended for obsolete and empty categories. I warned the user and reverted the categories with the bad name tags. As a minimum, we have to agree on a baseline and a reference list, otherwise we will be moving categories back and forward for ever. --Foroa (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I'd be in favour of "use whatever uses". Which is BGN/PCGN, probably because it's more transparent to Anglophones. There are few exceptions for w:WP:COMMONNAME that I can think of. Only w:Belarus instead of Byelarus' :) - We should have naming guidance based on that we can point people towards. Of course I don't suggest diving right in and renaming thousands and thousands of cats, but at least not changing stuff away from that system would be a start –⁠moogsi (blah) 16:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Also I didn't address the problem with toponyms in Russian. It's very tempting to say, "well it's in Belarus, so we should use the Belarusian name", which is of course too simple to be true - many ethnic Russians in Belarus would very strongly disagree... I think this is a slightly different issue than the one I am raising, that is, it's the form of the name we are transliterating from (Belarusian, Russian), not that which we are transliterating to (PCGN, National 2007, etc.) –⁠moogsi (blah) 17:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

For image names, or descriptive text on image pages, there's usually no real need to enforce any standard. Gallery names will often be in the relevant non-Latin script, making transliteration irrelevant. It's category names where transliteration consistency is desirable. AnonMoos (talk) 17:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

We are hiding our head in the sand. Only a small part of the Belarusian villages and towns have a wikipedia article, a small part of them could arguably use a name based on w:WP:COMMONNAME, so we need a system/reference for the majority of places that don't exist yet. And saying that we need to be flexible about the use of non Russians doesn't simplifies neither (Russian is the main language, used by 72% of the population, while Belarusian, the second official language, is only used by 11.9%.[145] Minorities also speak Polish, Ukrainian and Eastern Yiddish.). en:List_of_cities_and_towns_in_Belarus but doesn't address villages. --Foroa (talk) 06:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm gonna stick my neck out and say: use Belarusian names for places in Belarus, transliterate them with PCGN and see what happens. Why should we do this? Because it's what Google does when you browse Maps in English (except they use National 2000/7). That's it. Of course this gets them and other map services into trouble sometimes, but as I see it there is no practical way to do this right now without upsetting someone (as the category names are seemingly the One True Names until the i18n of the category system (I have faith!), which would make this problem disappear) –⁠moogsi (blah) 16:14, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I would say English Wikipedia names would be the most reasonable way. (I myself have different spellings of my name on my passport and on my residence permit.).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:12, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I know nothing about Belarussian names, but I know a little about Ukrainian names, and it seems as if for everything except Kiev (Category:Kiev), any English exonyms are ignored. E.g. the town known in English as "Chernigov" during most of the twentieth century is under Category:Chernihiv, etc. -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:48, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Again, we are hiding our heads in the sand. I guess that there will be hundred times more village categories on Commons than on en:wiki. And what about the many renaming request such as the 27 ones in Commons:CFD#Category:Grushauka_.28Minsk_Metro_station.29: How to respond to that? Maybe we should involve User:EugeneZelenko who is Belarusian. --Foroa (talk) 05:56, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
On my opinion this problem is can of worms. Whatever decision will be made, somebody will feel offended by it.
Russian is much more used then Belarusian, and it official language, but there people who feel that Belarusian is only right language. Belarusian uses Cyrillic, but there is variant of Latin alphabet used in past and also adopted with some changes as standard for Belarusian topography needs. However I don't see how standard of Belarus relates to English language. There are several ways of transliterate Belarusian and Russian to English.
Categories names translation is best solution for the problem, but this feature is wanted almost from beginning of Commons :-(
EugeneZelenko (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking for feedback on derivative related issues

I recently had an image removed as a derivative. This is personally embarrassing, as it is an area in which I work. I want to turn it into a learning experience, as the borders are fuzzier than they should be, at least in my own mind, so I'm looking for some feedback to help sharpen my understanding.

file:2013_Bridgeport_regional_final_cropped.jpg Obviously, this can only be seen by admins.)

First, I am well aware that most virtually all sporting events on TV are copyrighted by someone, so screenshots are almost never acceptable. (In fact, I cannot think of an exception, in the US).

If I am at a game, I think shots of the action are generally acceptable (although not as live feeds)

I did take pictures of NCAA banners once, but I uploaded them at Wikipeda, not Commons, under a non-free rationale. I removed them after obtaining the actual logos, again, uploaded as non-free.

I assume many images taken in an arena will incorporate copyrighted images, but if not the focus of the image, and sufficiently small, will not be an issue due to de minimis.

I did take and upload: File:Floor of arena 2012 Final Four Denver.JPG

The logo in the center is subject to copyright, but small. However, I am now nervous that the design of the floor itself may be subject to copyright. If I were taking a picture of the action, I would argue that the action is the focus of the shot, and it is unrealistic to take a picture of the action without taking a picture of the floor, but this shot is clearly intended to illustrate the floor, not the action. Do I need to remove it, or get permission?

In contrast, this OGV File:Stef hits foul line jumper against Penn State.theora.ogv

shows the floor. It has no special floor design, but if it had, I would feel comfortable arguing that the focus is on the play, not on the floor.

I did take a picture of a scoreboard: File:UConn versus KState lowest ever NCAA points allowed.jpg

The point, as the title suggests was to emphasize the result, not to illustrate the design of the scoreboard. I think this is fine.

The deleted image was taken with a goal of showing the scoreboard with the final result. Semi-coincidentally, it wasn't simply numbers, but a scoreboard with an lcd screen that showed the team accepting the winners trophy. I thought that was a happy coincidence at the time, but now I see that someone felt it was over the line.

I believe the NCAA owns the right to the broadcast of the game. There is no question that screen shots of the game in progress are covered. I think the NCAA also asserts rights to the game itself, so if I had my video camera, I couldn't live stream without permission. They may also own rights which prevent me from videoing the game and using it later, although I'm not sure how enforceable that is. Understanding the NCAA policy isn't trivial, as this link purporting to be the page with the digital rights overview but not showing me any content.

However, that isn't what happened. It wasn't the game itself, it was the video feed of a post-game presentation. I think I could have taken a picture of the actual presentation, but I happened to point my camera at the scoreboard instead. I think I accept that the video feed is subject to copyright. Does that mean if I cropped the image to remove the video screen it would be OK?

Is the existence of the video screen always a problem, or would it be OK if de minimis? For example, it seems rather prominent in File:ABC - Good Morning America.jpg

In the image I uploaded, I had cropped it. If I had not cropped it, the portion of the image that was taken up by the video screen would be very similar to the portion of the central video screen in the Good Morning America image. link to uncropped version Would that make it OK?

I recognize that de minimis issues are always subject to judgement, but I am trying to get a sense of the borders, so I can make sure not to infringe.--Sphilbrick (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Short answer to your rather long comment: yes, if you blank-out the video-screen part from the display in File:2013_Bridgeport_regional_final_cropped.jpg, it would be accepted. If it hadn't been speedied, but put through a DR, this would have been the default recommendation. --Túrelio (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
If the sports venue was built after November 1990, then the floor might be covered by {{FoP-US}} as US law allows you to take photos of buildings. See for example the case Leicester vs. Warner Bros. where a sculpture was found to be covered by {{FoP-US}} because it was part of a building. If the venue was built before December, it may be more tricky, as {{FoP-US}} only applies to buildings constructed after buildings became copyrightable. I'm questioning whether the film is acceptable considering w:Related rights#Performers. --Stefan4 (talk) 13:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
The logo on the floor is incidental to the photo, which is of the entire court. Same goes with the video. I don't think that causes either to become derivative. The Ets Hokin decision said the underlying work must be the primary subject of the photo in order for the photo to be considered derivative. You were taking a photo of the entire court, and the logo just happened to be there. If you had a photo focusing on the logo, that would be different. Rights to broadcast a game are a separate issue from copyright -- you would own the copyright to the video you took yourself, but it might be a contractual issue. You can't copyright the event itself though, and I don't think sportspeople are considered performers for performer's rights issues. I don't think the non-video scoreboard in File:UConn versus KState lowest ever NCAA points allowed.jpg is an issue. A video scoreboard could be different, as that will typically display copies of TV broadcast images recorded by someone else (and thus under copyright). I would not be comfortable with even the uncropped photo of the video scoreboard you link to; that seems to be focusing on the video display, and the copyrighted image displayed there adds materially to the expression in the photograph I think. There is always gray area in things like this, and many uses of the photo would likely fall under fair use anyways, but if it came to putting it on a postcard and selling it I'm not as sure. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:04, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the insightful responses, has helped a lot. One point of clarification, my concern about the photo of the floor wasn't the existence of the logo, which is quite small, but the possible argument that they floor design itself might be subject to copyright. --Sphilbrick (talk) 17:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

April 18

More problems with derivativeFx

I was trying to upload a derivative work of File:Roy Haynes 1.jpg which is licensed with {{PD-Bain}}, but unfortunately derivativeFx will not recognize that the image has a license. Have run into this problem with a couple of other files, as well. Kelly (talk) 21:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

April 19

Map coordinates

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question.

I've recently uploaded a set of lovely historic maps (see Category:Ordnance Survey Drawings) and I'm trying to work out how to geotag them. We have copious coordinate data - the centre, the NE and SW corners of a bounding box, and what I believe is the coordinate data for each of the four corners (they're not all completely square). However, how do I tag the map with this data?

{{Location}} is intended for location of the camera, which doesn't make sense for a map. {{Object location}} implies it's the location of the actual paper map. {{Map-description}} has no information. {{GeoPolygon}} might work, but seems inappropriate.

Any ideas? It'd be a shame not to include this data somehow. Andrew Gray (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, apologies in advance if we already have a system or a lot of discussion I don't know about; I'm speaking a a potential user of the information. As a general approach for geotagging maps, corners of the bounding box might be most robust. In the absence of suitable templates, the center point could be useful for finding local maps such as these, and could be included in {{Location}} with the additional coordinates in the description. Putting the corner data into {{GeoPolygon}} could be very useful for visual representation/identification: would it be compatible to use both? Dankarl (talk) 13:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Isn’t Commons:Geocoding/Overlay what you are looking for? Jean-Fred (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Not really, I think - I already have (very accurate) geocoding data, but that method seems to involve doing it all over again by hand! Andrew Gray (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Ah, yes, the page I linked is a bit too much of a tutorial ; but the idea is to store a KML with GroundOverlay information − see File:Albertstadt Map 1895.jpg/overlay.kml for an example. If you already have the geocoding data, all the better − you just dump that into the KML, I think. Jean-Fred (talk) 17:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Renaming categories about prefectures of Japan

I sugessted renaming categories at Category talk:Prefectures of Japan. Please join the discussion.--柑橘類 16:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Flickr2Commons not working

Is it just me or is Flickr2Commons not working? I transferred an image around 10am local time. I noticed that the last image uploaded was at around 12.30pm local time [GMT +5.30]. Is the tool/toolserver down? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 16:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I recommend using the UploadWizard. If you don't have the permissions, feel free to start a license reviewer request. You seem qualified enough imo. —Mono 22:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Alternatively there is Flickr Upload Bot. Kelly (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC) is another but only does singles and you need a copy on your hard drive.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Toolserver has been flaky the past few months. Catscan isn't working reliably either. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the alternatives. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 06:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

April 20

Visual display of deletion subcats

What happened to the Deletion Requests subcat no longer using a visual display? Previous months like March still do, but April does not, and this makes it practically impossible quickly scan all the images that are currently under DR. Fry1989 eh? 18:32, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed –⁠moogsi (blah) 19:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Whoohoo! Was it a bug? Fry1989 eh? 19:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Nope, someone added the magic word __NOGALLERY__, which.. well it explains itself, really –⁠moogsi (blah) 20:32, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

April 21

Missing author/source parameters on mobile uploads: fix coming

Earlier today, I discovered that uploads coming from mobile web lacked the author and source parameters in the {{Information}} tag, which get automatically added to uploads marked as "own work" via the Upload Wizard. We've made sure to add in the missing information for the mobile web uploads to date and will deploy a fix tomorrow. In the meantime, if you see new uploads coming in from mobile, please hold off on tagging them for deletion for missing author/source – the fix should be deployed around 1pm PST tomorrow (20:00 4 April UTC). Obviously this doesn't change the fact that blatant copyvio and other inappropriate files coming in from mobile should still be tagged and deleted just like desktop uploads!

Big thanks to XenonX3 for catching this, even though I originally had no idea why images that were my own work were being tagged for deletion :) If you have any questions, please let me know on my talk page or feel free to jump into the mobile channel on IRC (#wikimedia-mobile on freenode). Thanks, Maryana (WMF) (talk) 00:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I just deleted two pics where people photographed movie posters/albums and posted them. Could you perhaps disable the upload buttons on pages in categories like movies, albums, and books on the Wikipedias where these come from? —Mono 01:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
There are plenty of copyvios coming from those mobile uploads. I haven't used the feature myself but I believe it doesn't explain the importance of correct licensing enough, so that people just upload what they think would fit into articles. I would suggest something like a popup before uploading where the uploader is being warned what he isn't allowed to upload. Otherwise we are flooded with copyvios... XenonX3 (talk) 01:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I dont know how to test this way of uploading with my mobile device. I observed german users uploading stuff that is clearly unfree such as movie posters, cd covers or music video screenshots. I dont know why, but for some reason In my whole Commons time I only had a very, very few german users uploading such stuff with their first contribs, maybe because german Wikipedia gives them a basic idea what free content is. From this observation and my past experience on Commons I guess that there is zero instructions about "free content" or "own work" in this new way of uploading. This requires improvement. --Martin H. (talk) 01:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
It is a known problem that there is currently no licensing tutorial. On the other hand, a licensing tutorial that will actually be read and understood is reaaaaaaaaaaaally hard to do. Currently we have none at all, which is... also sub-ideal. Suggestions on something that's only two or three screens long, easy to understand, and easy to localize, would be very welcome. This is something we want to fix! --brion (talk) 21:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Copyright and licensing is hard. It requires reading. It requires time. You can't change it. You just can ensure that all information is easily accessible. -- Rillke(q?) 21:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I would be tempted to forget trying to teach users on mobile about copyright as part of the upload process; that's just not going to happen. I mean by all means provide links to Commons' resources on copyright, but don't expect most users to read it, even if you put "are you sure you know what copyright is" type warnings. What you want is a wizard that walks users through the key issues by asking them questions, and based on those questions, upload with appropriate "check-me" templates. For instance, questions would be "what's this a photo of?" with various options and if appropriate follow-up questions about "who made it, when"; "are there any people in it?", with follow-up questions about consent and public/private place, etc. Rd232 (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
An interactive license-wizard. You really believe the WMF is able to create one? If they would be, they would have chosen to do so in Upload Wizard. But instead they created a static comic as a "tutorial step". -- Rillke(q?) 15:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  The template Imagestack requires additional javascript-code. It doesn't work if javascript is switched off.
Step one: on any mobile Wikimedia site (e.g.,, you can access login and features from the top left navigation menu. Once logged in, you can donate an image to Commons via the Uploads menu, as well as upload and add an image to articles that have no lead image.
Step two: new user with no Commons uploads taps on Uploads and sees a brief three-step uploading tutorial. Replace "Wikipedia" with whatever project the user is on – Wikimedia Commons, Wikivoyage, etc.
Second screen of the tutorial.
Last screen. User will keep seeing this tutorial until they upload their first file.
Step three: user taps "donate image" button in the Uploads view or the "add an image" button on articles missing images. She selects an image from her phone gallery or takes an image with her phone. This is the image preview screen once an image is selected.
Step four: new user taps on "what does this mean?" under "I, $USERNAME, created this image" and see some more instruction.
  • Comment: Suggestions for how to educate new users given the contraints of mobile would be much appreciated! It's not an easy problem. We do have some educational messaging already in place: see the gallery below. Keep in mind that the text has to be very short and very precise, both because it's being displayed on a tiny mobile screen and because these messages have to be localized into the 280+ languages of all Wikimedia projects. The mobile team works iteratively, pushing out small changes every week, and the upload features are still fairly green and will definitely undergo tweaks/improvement. Take a look and tell me what you think:

Maryana (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

It's a good start, but doesn't really explain that you can't just take photographs of things that are copyrighted, which folks here are saying seems to be an issue. --brion (talk) 21:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
As an admin often doing recent-uploads-patroling, in my experience we would fare be better without this mobile-upload-facility. Besides of the eventually solvable problem with missing source/author/etc. entries, the main problem is what content is uploaded via this way, it's mostly trash, followed by copyvios, followed by attack images (for example: File:Hermaphrodite 2013-04-04 14-28.jpg). To get an idea look into Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web. I see this as a systemic error, which cannot be solved. And the price for this ill-considered feature/bug has to be paid by our patroler/admin force. --Túrelio (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
+1. I'm sorry to see WMF resources going into this at this time, when we have so many more pressing development needs. I can understand mobile apps targeted at specific things (like Wiki Loves Monuments), because you can have a little blurb that's specific to that and it's also in a context of some organisation. But a generic mobile upload app? It should be obvious that this needs a lot of guidance to walk users through copyright and COM:PEOPLE issues, and for the love of God, we can't even manage that for the Upload Wizard (which ought to be an easier task, not being targeted at small screens). Since the chance of this getting pulled is approximately zero, we can only hope that development of a proper copyright/COM:PEOPLE upload wizard for the mobile web app will actually happen. But far more likely is that we'll get something just as half-arsed and uneditable as the Upload Wizard. :( Well, just to finish on a positive note: how about setting up an onwiki development page that provides a sort of rough drafting area for the app content (maybe in the style of en:WP:WIZ). Then it'll be easier to suggest changes. Rd232 (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I am in full agreement: Most of our good pictures are created with huge efforts. Most of the mobile uploads aren't and we can't expect this to happen. The only possible benefit I see is that all uploads going to Commons must be free so if something exceptional is captured by the uploader, it will be free and not exclusively sold to press agencies.
Was there a careful check against the Wikimedia Foundation's mission, a list of use cases to check against before starting the development? -- Rillke(q?) 22:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation's mission is to bring more contributors in to all of our projects, to nurture and support the growth of the sum of all human knowledge. Getting new users involved is particularly important, because the existing community has a hard time keeping up with the influx of new content, as mentioned above. It's important to remember, however, that new users are going to make mistakes, whether that's getting markup wrong when editing Wikipedia or not understanding what/how to upload to Commons. We try to minimize their ability to make mistakes by including appropriate messaging and a good, intuitive UI in new features, but taking away the ability of an entire class of users to contribute just because some people will upload bad files seems extreme. Keep in mind that there are many places in the world where mobile devices are the primary if not sole connection to the Internet; should we restrict those users from participating in the Wikimedia movement altogether? Also, if you look at sales data, smartphone cameras have overtaken "real" cameras years ago, and mobile camera technology continues to improve exponentially, making it possible to take some really high quality photos on a phone.
I do have to disagree with the characterization that these uploads are all useless "trash." Yes, there's some copyvio and blurry test shots, but there are quite a few examples of articles that had no images whatsoever and were illustrated by mobile uploaders who were brand new to Wikimedia projects and would almost certainly never have contributed to Commons/Wikipedia otherwise: Spitz on English Wikipedia, Matanza en los penales del Perú on Spanish Wikipedia, Palestinian Security Forces on Arabic Wikipedia, The Normandy on English Wikipedia. There are more perfectly acceptable files in that category if you care to look. A glib interpretation of recent changes to Commons might suggest that the majority of uploads to Commons are pretty low quality in general... Obviously, not every new file is going to be Featured quality. If they were, we'd run out of days in the year to feature them all :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 01:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
@Maryana, sorry, but your posting reads as a PR text to defend this feature/bug. That doesn't change the facts. It's not "some copyvio". The copyvio-rate is far higher than in non-Mobile/Web-uploads. What you see in Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web is only what survived the first-line of recent-upload-patrol, i.e. most blatant copyvios and attack images are already removed. At least for the next days I will completely refrain from patroling these uploads. If WMF wants to get Commons trashed, then be it so. --Túrelio (talk) 06:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Adding entropy to Wikimedia Commons will definitely not support the growth of the sum of all human knowledge. Most people are simply unable to serve good quality (of categorization, description, file name, image quality) with mobile devices. Fingers are too large to type sophisticated descriptions in multiple languages, folk is distracted when using these devices, …
Personally, I am happy to welcome new users and of course new users make mistakes. But the ability to educate them after they made a mistake is essential. With the mobile feature, I have the bad feeling they will never read messages, I am writing on their talk page; our internationalized templates will surely look poor on small displays, …
Furthermore you seem to have completely lost the ability for self-criticism: You call your own product good and intuitive despite the issues raised here. I understand that you've put a lot of efforts into its development but the result is currently unsatisfactory.
We are not talking just about some copyvio and blurry test shots, we are talking about > 50 % of the uploads! More than a half of them are not really useful or educative or are copyright violations. I will prove this with statistics as soon as enough are collected at Commons:Mobile app/deletion request tracking, Category:MobileUpload-related deletion requests and Commons:Deletion requests/mobile tracking.
The fact that more cell phones with cameras are sold than digital cameras led you to the ill-considered conclusion that people buy them to take good photos and contribute good content. Perhaps they will in future and they will learn to. But as for now, they brought them for reading and for communication.
Even the quality of the sample image you gave is arguable: It is of high resolution but with the two legs in the foreground, it will look really strange in a Wikipedia article. Quality is not just a matter of image resolution.
I hope you're going to improve the App(s). You could for example show a text like the Welcome to Commons brochure, create some questions about it and before users are able to create an account using a mobile device, they must answer a question about what Commons is (or is not). -- Rillke(q?) 10:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
_at least_ something like this should be included in the mobile upload wizard, the sentence "Please only donate photos that you took yourself." is completely misleading regarding copyrights. Rbrausse (talk) 12:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
@Maryana. I have to agree with Turelio. Are you planning to determine the ratio of useful/useless uploads? I say that because it would show to the commons community that you're really interested in our project and not in your salary. I have to say that unless a significant ratio of useful contents is obtained, the Mobile upload feature should be blocked. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 13:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Ecemaml, absolutely. Below is some preliminary work I've done looking at the nature and quality of mobile uploads. What you're seeing is a sample of desktop uploads from November 2012 (a non Wiki Loves Monuments month) compared to a sample of mobile web uploads. The red bits are files reuploaded from elsewhere on the web. The rate of copyvio does appear to be higher for mobile web uploads, but it's nowhere near what some users appear to be claiming here.
It's also important to note that the volume of mobile uploads is still quite low as compared to desktop uploads: there are currently about 200-300 uploads coming in per day coming from mobile, whereas there are about 12,000-13,000 total uploads on Commons per day – that makes mobile only 1-2% of desktop uploads. I'm currently working on comparing the deletion rate of mobile and desktop; however, this is going to be difficult to do objectively if the Commons community decides to mass delete all of these files, not just copyvio :-/ Maryana (WMF) (talk) 17:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web does seem to have more than a few pictures of pets. The Spitz example is interesting - someone stuck a photo of their pet on the Wikipedia page instead of choosing one of the existing photos which would be a better illustration (one that shows the distinctive tail would be better). More generally, none of them were categorised, some lacked Info templates, most lacked descriptions... Whether the quality of mobile uploads is really lower than "normal" uploads I don't know, but it's undoubtedly a route for more, and I'm not crazy about widening the firehose of incoming content that needs review for quality, copyright violation, and scope. I'm not saying that mobile should never happen, I would just strongly prefer to develop the Upload Wizard to a higher standard and then using that as a model for a mobile version. Anyway, if there's actual development effort that'll really develop something useful, taking concerns here on board, which can then serve as a model for an improved Upload Wizard - fine, we can do it back to front. Rd232 (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
PS Mobile Web doesn't necessarily mean photo taken by the user, as may be tempting to assume. Example: copyvio from the web File:An amusement ride 2013-04-04 16-03.jpg. Rd232 (talk) 02:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
The problem isn't with the quality of the images, or with a 'few' copyright violations. The last day of deletions makes any attempt to put a positive spin on this seem rather glib. Being generous and saying that for every 2 of those, someone added a picture to an article which didn't have one, it still doesn't add up for me in terms of effort for gain. I can guess we've already deleted twice as much as is actually in the category. Users are not getting told anything about what is acceptable, by all appearances. Edit: in the scheme of things this is not a huge number, but if it were on the same scale as the whole project, it'd be time to unplug it and go home. –⁠moogsi (blah) 03:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the rationale for mobile development

  • here, To avoid forcing new/less experienced users to deal with this complexity on a mobile device, and to leverage the most popular existing type of upload [...Original images taken by the uploader...], we are currently focusing only on uploads to Commons under one license, CC-By-SA 3.0, on the mobile web.
  • here, Galadriel is an experienced Commons user who already has uploaded many files to Commons using the UploadWizard. She is taking a nice evening stroll when she comes across a scene that would make a wonderful addition to Commons. She has a phone with a nice camera, so takes a picture with the inbuilt camera app. Instead of going home, remembering to transfer the image, and then uploading it, she wants to be able to upload it then and there - and then move on. She is a good Commons citizen, so wants to make sure that the title is descriptive and appropriate categories are added. This is Use Case 1 of... 1.

I feel there is a desperate naivete here. And did any prior consultation with experienced Commons users pass me by? Rd232 (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

As Maryana notes below, the mobile app and mobile web are completely different. The Apps have a completely different reach, different workflow, different codebase, and different deletion ratios. Mobile Web != Mobile App. While the app use case might be written to be a bit... flowery, it is reasonably accurate. The app encourages you to add an appropriate title and description, and (since the latest release) categorize the images you upload. I have been talking to people on IRC at the #wikimedia-commons channel for a while now, and been implementing feedback that I've gotten from there. Ragesoss has been particularly helpful both in terms of ideas and testing, and I've also poked other people to bounce ideas off. I had also started mailing out to commons-l every time I make a release (since the last release). I could post on VP but that could possibly be considered spammy. If there's any other location where I can hang out and talk to users I'll be happy to frequent those too. YuviPanda (WMF) (talk) 02:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The {{Information}} tag seems to be missing in several files − 107 according to CatScan, the more recent being File:Image of Motoactv SmartWatch- 2013-04-04 15-33.jpg or File:Knut- 2013-04-04 21-26.jpg. Jean-Fred (talk) 20:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed 'rule of thumb' for deletion of mobile-appweb sourced images

I propose a rule of thumb for admins and others to quickly manage mass deletions in the light of a flood of unacceptable images that now creates a serious threat to the sustainability of Wikimedia Commons, and damages the continued good faith of our community of volunteers. This will remove any requirement for a volunteer to individually confirm problems with images and instead judge a source to be too unreliable for images to be accepted, until such a time as an appeal demonstrates that acceptable quality constraints have been placed at the source, rather than using limited resources of the unpaid volunteer Commons community.

Where a clearly identified source of images has a measurable rate of poor images (i.e. serious enough for deletion) of higher than 33%, then all images may be automatically deleted from this source, without individual image review, by an administrator for an indefinite period, unless otherwise categorized as in Project scope and compliant with Licensing requirements, or there is a successful appeal on AN for the specific source.

Thanks -- (talk) 06:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

  • As for now, the problem is less with single mass-uploaders of the MUApp-kind, but with the mass of MUApp-uploaders, who upload 1-4 files. However, that may change if the App becomes even more popular. --Túrelio (talk) 09:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    Yes, this proposal is aimed at all uploads using the same problematic application, rather than individual persons or accounts. The policy has in mind not just current mobile apps, but the likely future of multiple types of mobile interfaces on multiple platforms, plus their forks, all of which may be counted as different identifiable "sources". -- (talk) 09:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I do see that there is a serious problem with low quality images that seem to be coming from mobile app. However, I also see that there's a problem with delete-happiness of some admins and for some subjects. I would agree that copyvio mass uploaders can be stopped with such a "nuclear" regulations, but to apply the same logic for "out of scope" or "poor quality" images will do a lot more harm than good. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    Sure, I'm concerned about "delete-happiness". However this proposal cannot be read as encouraging any sort of questionable deletion-happiness spree–it is limited to sources where there is a measurable failure rate of 33% or above and there should be an easy appeal process once quality problems are addressed. By anyone's viewpoint, such a high failure rate is seriously damaging, and poses a direct threat to the sustainability and credibility of this project. Thanks -- (talk) 07:08, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    I do understand and sympathise with you to an extent. However, there is a problem that after the image is deleted only admins can see it (even in cases where the image was not a copyright violation). What I see happening is something like this: A person uploads 3 images: a penis, a fictional flag, and a personal drawing of Muhammad; it would be very easy to see how at least two of these would be deleted, making the percentage 66%. After that every upload would be speedily nuked, even in cases where those uploads would be able to stand on their own merit, and each deletion would up the deleted percentage. An appeal would be an uphill battle, because most people would not see the deleted images, but only the deletion logs saying things like "don't need any more of these" or simply "cleaning up". In a perfect world what you are proposing would work, and work perfectly. One third of uploads falling out of scope is really a lot, but not when scope is getting redefined to "Having an associated article on English Wikipedia (except for any sexuality, fictional, or non-Islamic media for which 2 images is already 1 too many)"; and I have no hope to see many admins to actually state how they read the phrase "broad meaning" from COM:SCOPE#Aim_of_Wikimedia_Commons Sinnamon Girl (talk) 07:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    Thanks for explaining further, I understand a bit better. Perhaps it should be clearer that by "source", this proposal is not intended to address individual accounts or IP addresses of contributors, problems such as this would be covered by current policies. This proposal is directed at "sources" such as mobile upload applications which may include many uploaders. As for seeing uploads, I agree there should be an open process. I suggest that (a) any problematic source should be discussed in a general Deletion request for at least 7 days, as good practice currently establishes for deletions, and (b) we should be talking of a sample of at least 100 images which are seen as problematic, this would ensure that the nature of licence problems or serious scope issues are well established by a meaningful statistical sample. Thanks -- (talk) 07:51, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    Thanks for trying to see my point and for taking a step towards consensus. Sample of around 100 files that already went through the normal DR process would be enough, in my opinion, to be able to see real patterns emerging. I am a little concerned with slippery slope, but if people will remain vigilant against vigilantes it may just work. So as I understand the process: Somebody creates an application for easily uploading files, this application becomes reasonably popular with the wrong crowd, we have 100 files uploaded with that application nominated for deletion via regular DR and then deleted, another DR gets started showing that we have disproportionate abuse of this particular application and that files uploaded via this tool are ... (I'm unsure about this point, do we delete all of them, even if they have already closed as keep elsewhere, do we only delete future uploads?). To establish the percentage that is "too high", is it possible to have a statistic about the proportions of all deleted images uploaded via Special:Upload and Upload Wizzard. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 08:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    I would expect any shiny new mobile app to have a rush of usage on day 1, so in practice I would expect a problem to be quite quickly apparent, and for a keen Commonsist to create a bundle Deletion request for 100+ images. There could then be the usual minimum seven days of discussion about the example cases and whether this is statistically significant, whether the licensing problems are serious or fixable, for example just by changing the default licence to a correct one, and whether the mobile app (or other software) developer has fixed or has committed to a firm date for fixing the quality issue. Consequently I would not expect several or a hundred separate DRs to be a prerequisite to creating the bundle DR, however I would expect there to be plenty of time for discussion based on real current cases, and good faith attempts to negotiate with the developer, before a final decision would be made to delete all further uploads from that source. Thanks -- (talk) 09:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    I didn't mean that every file should have its own DR, but at least a reason should. For example in the list like this all the copyvios may be deleted speedily or may have a discussion if they are not apparent (from the titles of some of the files in this case I feel that they are clear cases). So in this particular case we already do have sufficient files to make a judgement, even though I would still say that "used for vandalism" and other such reasons should have had their DR, even as a unified discussion. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 09:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Scope hardly comes into it: read the breakdown at the top of this (linking this again because.. well, it's insane). The deletion rationales are also less cryptic than you imagine they are –⁠moogsi (blah) 08:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
This actually highlights my point, all "V", "S", and even possibly "D" should have been normal deletion requests, not a single-handed action. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 09:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
So, File:Hermaphrodite 2013-04-04 14-28.jpg, defaming a fully identifiable girl, should have gone through a 1-2 week DR? Ever heard of Amanda Todd? --Túrelio (talk) 09:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
All of it was done within process. V and S are sometimes also © I guess. I'm not perfect. Even a speedy deletion is rarely a single-handed action. The ones which are.. we're talking noise, blank pictures, blatant adverts, attack images, etc. Probably nothing less than taking you through them one by one would be satisfactory –⁠moogsi (blah) 09:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Just to clarify, this proposal, with the suggested bundle DR and 7 days plus of discussion, in no way circumvents current policies. If there are identified issues against Photographs of identifiable people or Licensing that have realistic potential to cause harm, financial loss, damage, privacy issues or distress to models or copyright holders, then the normal processes apply and prompt action would be supported. Thanks -- (talk) 09:30, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
my last comment wasn't directed at your proposal, but to Sinnamon. --Túrelio (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
yep, but a good point about our collective duty of care - always worth re-iterating.   (talk) 09:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I have already stated that 100+ copyvio uploads out of from what I can see around 400 is enough to start a Deletion Discussion for all the uploads. So, , you don't need to convince me any further, I have agreed with you. To answer Túrelio, I can only say that I don't see the image and it is not this particular image that I was talking about, but the reason itself. In fact if an admin will delete Commons:Deletion requests/File:This hoe suffers from the dirty Hoe A-K-A- Thot disese 2013-04-04 22-58.jpg speedily, I think that few people will mind. Sinnamon Girl (talk) 09:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Speedied, as they were already used for vandalism/defamation on :en[24]. Thanks for notifying. The Hermaphrodite-file was of the same kind, not the image itself was offensive (though likely a personaliry rights violation), but the intentionally defamatory description/filename. --Túrelio (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
By the way, we now have Category:MobileUpload-related deletion requests. --09:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

New speedy deletion criterion

I don't know that the proposed "rule of thumb" is going to get anywhere - how would it be implemented? I think we either need to start a petition asking WMF to just turn it off (after collecting enough evidence to justify it), or create a new speedy deletion criterion. Since clashing with the WMF is generally unproductive, I'll suggest the following new speedy criterion:

  • Files not in use for a legitimate educational purpose, uploaded from a mobile device within the last 7 days, may be deleted immediately if the file appears to meet any of the usual deletion criteria (eg probable copyright violation, lack of scope, inadequate sourcing, probable privacy violation, etc). Note the "may": deleting admins are expected to exercise discretion and send potentially valuable files to DR if appropriate..

Rd232 (talk) 11:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

  • It's a bit vague and still leaves the overstretched volunteer admins that help with deletions taking an indefinite burden, rather than finding a way of automatically deleting files. In the above proposal the specific source would need to be discussed and assessed each time, and not just this one app from the WMF. We are not dealing with a future limited to the odd mobile app launched slowly by the WMF, but an open source environment where any kid in their bedroom might knock out a quick app as a fun Commons related project, and suddenly find it being adopted as an internet meme. We would want to encourage this sort of innovation, but we are likely to see narrowly targeted apps that may range from "publish your pet" (which we would probably want) through to "happy-slapping" (which we would have immediate problems with). Thanks -- (talk) 11:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Automatically deleting files? Well in theory you could have a deletion bot, but I don't know how you could make that secure enough and reliable enough to actually use. (Maybe that idea of a "staging server" is relevant again - where everything not in use gets deleted after a while unless someone other than the uploader chooses to copy it across to the main system...) And it's all very well disapproving apps, but what can you actually do to implement that disapproval? Rd232 (talk) 13:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
      1. Deletion bot - a bot just immediately marks anything matching the upload tool as the upload device for a speedy deletion with some standard blurb as the rationale and puts them in a category which can be cleaned out by an admin the same day.
      2. Staging server - yes, always a good idea, why hasn't it happened yet?
      3. implementing disapproval - just start running the incredibly simple bot, possibly using an on-wiki public disapproved list. I'll happily add it to Faebot unless someone wants to standardize it on an alternative. -- (talk) 13:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Sounds vague. For example, if I upload an image by going to Special:Upload using the web browser on my phone, should any such file be subject to speedy deletion? I think that it is better to use the normal deletion criteria. Of course, obvious copyright violations such as photos of posters can get a standard {{Copyvio}}. --Stefan4 (talk) 14:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
    • The aim of the proposal was exactly that the normal deletion criteria could be applied to mobile uploads directly, without going through DR, if it's pretty obvious that the file meets one or more of the criteria. This would be a stop-gap until better solutions like the "staging server" or "sandbox upload" approach (see TheDJ's post some way down this thread) can be implemented. Rd232 (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: ways the WMF mobile team can help

Thanks, everyone, for weighing in on all this. When we started building these features, we didn’t know what the problem areas were going to be in this completely new contribution workflow. Would new users not understand why they should donate images? Would new users donate inappropriate images? Would it be a combination of both?

I want to lay out some concrete steps for moving forward. The previous proposals are ones based on what is possible for Commons editors and admins to do after the fact, but I'd like to describe what we on the WMF mobile team can do to improve the output of mobile uploading.

Here's a list of the things we can work on to improve the quality of photos coming out of the mobile Web upload interface:

  1. Make the upload process more focused on soliciting original, encyclopedic material. We know now that new users will donate images, but they won’t donate the kind of images that Commons needs unless we explicitly guide them to do so. We’re working on a Nearby view for readers, letting them see articles near them – giving users who are on a phone with a camera a list of things near them to take a picture of (similar to the WLM campaign) is one example of a targeted call to action that may produce better content, rather than a generic upload workflow that leaves room for test shots and selfies.
  2. Reinforce much more strongly the concept of original work and make sure new users understand it. This will mean different wording in the tutorial, focusing specifically on educating users about original work and encyclopedic content.
  3. Make changes to the first-time uploader user experience. An explicit opt-in via a popup message is one way to go about this. Some form of an interactive upload wizard is another. Any other suggestions?
  4. Figure out if we can disable the upload feature on categories of articles that are inappropriate for mobile uploading. There are a lot of challenges here, since we’re supporting 280+ language projects and categories work very differently in all of them, but it’s something we’re going to look into nonetheless.
  5. Continue to monitor the rate of copyvio, test images, inappropriate images, etc. If the rate of inappropriate uploads is very high, we can scale back the visibility of the features. There are ways to make the upload call to action less prominent and more likely for only experienced users to see/use. We don’t have to turn it off entirely.
  6. Reevaluate and change focus. Perhaps mobile web uploading doesn’t make sense, and the sensible thing is to focus on mobile applications. We won’t know for sure until we put more work into the mobile web features, but we’re also working on Commons apps for experienced users, and they may be a better fit for generating high quality content.

Apropos to this, just a couple more thing I should stress:

Mobile web and mobile apps are not the same thing.

I want to make it clear that the issue here is with uploads coming from the mobile version of Wikimedia projects (,, etc.), not uploads coming from apps. The mobile team is also working on native apps for Android and iOS, and if you look at the category of images coming from those apps, you’ll see that a) they’re mostly uploads from experienced Commons users, and b) they’re high quality encyclopedic content. In contrast, mobile web uploads are mostly coming from brand new people who have just signed up for accounts. I want to make sure everyone understands this distinction, because it explains the difference in quality.

Mobile devices are not going away.

More and more of the traffic on Wikimedia projects is coming from smartphones and tablets, and both new and experienced users are going to want to contribute to Commons on these devices. Third-party developers have already created upload features: there is a volunteer-created Commons upload app and a wiki editing app with uploading functionality for iPhones and iPads.

Unlike third-party developers, however, Wikimedia Foundation developers are not just interested in creating one-off proprietary apps that only reach a niche market of Apple users. We want to build sustainable upload workflows that anyone on any device can use. Initiatives like Wiki Loves Monuments have shown that we can engage smartphone users to contribute quality material via mobile. It’s something we have to do more work to figure out, or we risk losing a huge and dramatically growing population of users.

It’s a big, hairy problem, and we’re learning as we go. You can help us; the other nice thing about not relying on third-party developers to build these features is that we actually read the Commons Village Pump and hear and respond to your feedback :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for listening Maryana. Could you please listen carefully again to the section above and below what you have written, and immediately get the development team to disable the uploads from these damaging mobile sources until a system for testing is properly agreed, with the community, possibly including staging areas, rather than breaking Commons so badly that we are actively losing our most productive administrators out of frustration at the actions of the WMF? Commons is the only flagship truly international, multilingual and popular project the Wikimedia brand can claim. I love it, it is the grandest embodiment we have of global open knowledge. Let us not throw it away in a "mobile marketing" drive, just because the WMF happens to think this is important for its brand growth and funding strategy. Something will replace Commons, eventually, don't hasten that day by driving our community of leading volunteers into forking and doing our own free media open knowledge hippy thing by leaving the Wikimedia "brand" behind us and emptying this project of our future freely given content, experience, innovation and value. Thanks -- (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
By the way, as an expression of solidarity with the section below by Ecemaml, I have now halted my uploads and my Geograph work as of this moment, until action is seen to be taken and a way forward properly agreed. My fellow volunteers may want to consider the power in their hands to control this project. I am sure you are aware that I have made over 2,000,000 edits to this project and uploaded over 70,000 photographs - I hope that means that my actions make a difference here. Thanks -- (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Fæ, as someone who is both a Commons contributor/admin and an engineering staff member, I too love Commons and think it should be treated as a flagship project. But your comments are hyperbolic (breaking Commons? Really?), and your incitement to more drama by trying to stir up some kind of unnecessary showdown ("My fellow volunteers may want to consider the power in their hands to control this project.") between WMF and Commons admins is not helping. Maryana is posting here precisely in an attempt to be constructive and treat Commons contributors as peers who should be heard. She's asking whether the ideas above may or may not help from the perspective of Commons contributors. It seems your answer is that nothing but turning off the feature will satisfy you, which is of course on topic, but basically throwing up your hands and quitting unless you get what you want is not moving the conversation forward. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi again Steven, I am pleased that you are trying to be constructive, and I am prepared to take your criticism of me in good faith, perhaps more good faith than the last time you criticised me whilst performing your duties as a representative of the WMF. Rd232 has a sensible approach to consensus building below, and this is the sort of community control I was referring to in my comment, and that you appear to be taking as a 'showdown'. Certainly, if little else works promptly in addressing the quality problem, then saving the time of our handful of overworked active administrators, should be a priority for our community, and it would not be unreasonable to arrange for all files from an unacceptably low quality source (such as a specific mobile-web source) to be routinely mass deleted, rather than administrators spending significant time being diverted to reviewing and making decisions about every individual image. Have a good weekend. Thanks -- (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for this comment. I don't see anyone actually opposed to the concept of uploading mobile devices - there are only concerns about the current implementation. Uploads from mobile devices are generally considered A Good Thing (someone please pipe up if I've got this wrong).
In my opinion the mockup at right is the most important thing we can tell mobile web users, or users of the Android/iOS app. Commons does of course host very many files which are not self-made, but their public domain status depends on a complex set of rules which are not easily communicated. The simplest way to ensure that users upload acceptable files is to try to restrict them to their own work. Currently the Mobile Web doesn't do this, but it will be implemented.
The cause of the alarm is the huge proportion of bad uploads, which are taxing the current deletion processes, and extrapolating that to what will happen when Mobile web/apps are popular. There will be other problems, but I don't think that constantly deleting copyvios is a permanent one –⁠moogsi (blah) 22:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Good feedback all around. One related idea brought up in casual conversation to me today: we could potentially use EXIF data to try and make sure the photo was actually generated by the same device, and if not, throw a warning or error of some kind. This idea came from an engineer in another group, so it would be need to be checked for difficult/plausibility from a technical member of the mobile team. But it does sound like one step toward ensuring original work is being uploaded. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
That seems like a really good, practical idea that would immediately cut out many of the problems -- all of the mobile/web problem uploads I saw the other day were of course random files from the web and therefore of course had no EXIF. We could either check for it and if there's no EXIF, either throw up a big splash screen (is this from the web? Stop!) or just not allow the upload and explain why - photos on commons have to be your own work (this should be limited to mobile uploads, as there are other legitimate files with no EXIF, but I doubt too many other public domain use cases of scanned documents or whatever will be coming via mobile). -- Phoebe (talk) 02:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
We can run a bot from this end too, for example adding a no-EXIF (or partial EXIF for files that, say, have EXIF data showing edits in Photoshop, but lack original camera details) hidden category to all mobile originating uploads. It's a simple API call plus a bit of parsing, and might be an easy way of gathering files for which mass deletion would be relatively uncontroversial and save some administrator effort. -- (talk) 03:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
  Done Faebot is now populating Category:Mobile uploads lacking EXIF data with images lacking the Make of camera in the EXIF data, or with no EXIF data at all. There may be some devices which fail to write usable EXIF data, we may want to decide how to handle those. In the meantime, being a newly uploaded file and present in this category, is probably a good indicator that these are troubling files and a significant, probably the majority, of those included need deletion due to significant doubt as to source and copyright.
If folks can work out failure cases where a bot can identify with a 90%+ accuracy which of these images are going to be licensing problems and policy failures, for example by screening out those that used the WLM mobile app as these were probably reviewed at some point, then it would be great to refine this categorization with a 'definitely delete' sub-category.
Update added my own filter of only checking for files uploaded from March 2013, on the basis that as other files have been around for more than 30 days, they are less of an immediate issue. I am limiting the bot to checking Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Android, Category:Uploaded with Mobile/iOS, Category:Uploaded with Mobile/Web. This will run around every hour. Happy to adapt the routine and keep running as an interim measure. -- (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
You're going to need to adjust the bot, while my photograph lacks "Camera Model" it does have "Facebook Camera for iPhone" in the "Software used" section. Bidgee (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
  Done Faebot now checks the EXIF for 'Software used' and skips it when a match for 'Facebook Camera' is found. Leave a note on my user talk page if it gets categorized again.   -- (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Fae! I wonder if it makes sense to separate 'no EXIF' from 'incomplete EXIF' into different categories. A lot of photo apps have just limited EXIF data. On my phone, for instance, even the native photo app leaves out Make when I use panorama mode, like this photo. Unfortunately, other apps (notably, Instagram, for Android at least) don't use any EXIF at all. But I suspect overall that the 'some EXIF' photos are more likely to be self-taken than the 'no EXIF' ones.--ragesoss (talk) 13:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Sounds sensible.   Done. Category:Mobile uploads lacking EXIF data will show files with none or trivial EXIF data, and Category:Mobile uploads lacking EXIF data for camera has non-trivial EXIF data but lacks a camera Make, or the EXIF Software field does not have the word "Camera" in it. -- (talk) 16:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Minor addendum I have made Faebot a bit more intelligent, and he now considers the number of visible categories on an image. If rather than deleting an image, a user adds 3 or more categories to it, Faebot will take it out of the 'no EXIF' category. As someone must have thought about it, and found it a useful photo, by definition it must be a lower risk than the majority of uncategorized newly uploaded mobile created photos. Thanks -- (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
sounds good as an aid to helping with this, though I do think (once we get the exact parameters right) that it would be better to alert uploaders on the upload end, rather than letting them upload with no problems and then deleting their stuff, which is confusing. -- Phoebe (talk) 16:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
That's the intention, this is just an interim to help make life a bit less frustrating for our administrators. Hopefully Faebot can get back to other stuff soon. Thanks -- (talk) 16:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
This is great! A sincere thank you, Fae :)
Since the bad upload volume remains unacceptable, we're going to temporarily disable the login/signup call to action for this feature, only making it show up for users who are already logged in with a Wikimedia account. This should significantly reduce the number of mobile uploads, bringing it back down to pre-April 4 levels (e.g., only a few dozen files a day) and hopefully improving the quality, since only existing users will be able to make use of it. This will happen during our regular deployment window, Tuesday afternoon PST. Until then, I'll ask some of the Commons admins in the office to help with triaging and deleting copyvio. Thanks again for your work on the bot – we'll investigate ways to do EXIF verification pre-upload, as Phoebe and Steven suggested. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Apologies to all the Commons admins who have been effected by this feature and special thanks to Fae for the bot. I hope that you trust us that we all want the best for Commons! Obviously we haven't quite got the software right first time but I hope you can see the great opportunity that we have here. We should focus on the positives - a lot of the users who uploaded copyrighted material probably had good intentions but we obviously failed them on educating them to not do this there are also useful photos such as,_Seoul_2013-04-08_01-26.jpg. Also the fact lots of people bothered to create accounts to do this is a positive We also now know the sort of things that mobile phone users will do when presented with the chance to upload a photo using their phone and we can iterate on this. As Maryana points out we are working in a territory we have never explored before so there are bound to be disruption. We have a deployment Tuesday where we can reduce the upload volume to a more acceptable rate but I really hope you can help us make this feature better rather than killing an idea before it has been fully born Jdlrobson (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

The volume of uploads should now decrease dramatically. As of today we only show the lead photo upload button to logged in users. Jdlrobson (talk) 02:41, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm giving up

For long I've been pleased to donate my time to the project. I believe in the free content. However, I don't believe in the way the WMF (comprising a growing number of paid staff) is managed nor in the way it cooperates with the projects (where a lot of volunteers do the hard work without getting anything but personal satisfaction).

In last hours, I've been dealing with the uploads that our fantastic management has dumped on us. I've opened 26 deletion requests for pictures obviously out of scope. I've delete about 40 pictures as they were copyright violations. I haven't reviewed the whole category (a more or less constant amount of pictures regardless of the number of deleted pictures) but I can assess that no more than 20% of the pictures in the category are useful (considering the number of deleted pictures, the amount is no greater than 10%). I've decided that I won't contribute any more to the effort of sorting out that mess. I've always thought that the community is able to self-organize. But now it seems that there is an alien element that cannot be organized. It does not belong to the community but can supersede any agreement that the community can arrange. I won't play that way. Many thanks --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 21:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for giving your hands-on experience. I would suggest that rather than a counsel of despair, we try two things:
  1. get individual admins to look at the mobile input stream, so they get a feel for what the content is like
  2. have a petition that admins can sign, declaring that they won't process mobile uploads made after a certain date, by which they expect mobile uploads to be turned off. This partial strike would be rescinded once, in conjunction with Commons editors, the mobile tools are developed to a point where Commons editors are happy to put them live to the world again.
I'm off to bed now and probably won't be available at the weekend, but that's my 2 cents for now. Rd232 (talk) 22:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Maryana says: “about 200-300 uploads coming in per day coming from mobile”. Yes, and a only a small part of it is useful (according to COM:SCOPE) + correctly licensed + has a good quality. I assume we can delete > 200 images more a day. They are blatant copyright violations which get a bot created information template (“own work”). Remember: “If the uploader is the author, this should be stated explicitly. (e.g. "Created by uploader", "Self-made", "Own work", etc.) (…) A generic license template which implies that the uploader is the copyright holder (e.g. PD-self) is no substitution for this requirement.“

I deleted about 100 files over the last days, maybe 80 percent were copyvios from the Category:Uploaded_with_Mobile/Web. There is a problem and we don't need more experience with these uploads but an upload stop and fixes to the software and the user interface. Copyright violations have been a problem for years and all the (limited) solutions we got were user created. --Polarlys (talk) 10:41, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

PS: The “work” of 15 minutes. So far I deleted/tagged 207 247 images from the category as copyvios/out of project scope/without source/without permission. --Polarlys (talk) 11:04, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

You not mentioned the ~40 screenshots and other copyvios that I deleted on 4 April 2013 when I first saw this category. Informing users that they are only allowed to upload free content or content they created themself and that they want to publish under a free license is the minimum. DO not upload screenshots or photos of someone elses copyrighted work needs to be added, otherwise for me the screenshots posted by Maryana (WMF) 18:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC) look ok... BUT even with that instructions we still have a larger percentage of copyvios in the uploads? This means we have to disable mobile services, learning the basics of free content or doing acts of legal significance regarding your own copyright (publishing under cc-by-sa etc) is nothing you should do on the fly from mobile.... if you not know what you do or never heard of it before. --Martin H. (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Disabling mobile web uploads for brand-new users

Since the volume of inappropriate uploads is taxing the Commons community, the mobile team will hide the upload feature for new users – we are currently showing the upload button to logged out users and then asking them to log in or sign up for a Wikimedia account in order to upload, and this appears to be driving the vast majority of the upload traffic. Not showing the upload feature at all to logged out users should lower the number of new mobile uploads to pre-April 4 levels (e.g., a few dozen a day) and increase quality, since only existing logged in users will see the feature. We'll do this during our next deployment window, April 9th. Until then, I'll ask the Commons admins among the WMF staff help out with triaging and deleting inappropriate uploads.

Thanks to everyone who flagged the issue and offered ideas for improving the educational UI – we'll explore many of them to ensure there are proper checks in place before increasing the visibility of any mobile web upload feature. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 18:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

It is 3 p.m. in central Europe right now and since midnight we had over 120 new entries for deletion on the logging page (which doesn’t count them all). Something isn’t working. Please stop the tool entirely for now, because we have a huge problem that is stealing our time. --Polarlys (talk) 12:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Maryana said they are disabling it during their next deployment window, on April 9.--ragesoss (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. --Polarlys (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I just like to add, that the general quality of new users contribs is not better then those of the mobile uploads. Im checking the user creation log. I now did so for 3 consecutive weeks. From the 10% of users that contributed (90% is SUL visitors) 60% upload copyvios, 30% upload trash and 10% make good contributions, e.g. adding one category or translating one description. I say "one" because the rarely do more edits. From the thousand of new users I checked there where a hand full of users making good uploads - but only for one day, they never came back. I cant remind any valuable contributions e.g. of outstanding quality or of rarely illustrated subject. So asking the general public to upload something here is not an important lever for improving the project, its the opposite regretably. --Martin H. (talk) 15:10, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Some open questions that I'd like to have answered
  • Is the WMF thinking of talking to the involved parties before and not after a new feature impacting so deeply into an established community is implemented? It's really shocking to see that no proper dialogue with the ones that really know commons was conducted before this new feature was implemented.
Mobile uploading had previously been announced on the Commons Village Pump back in late February. There were also two blog posts about our continuing work on the feature, one in January of last year, and one in March.
  • Has the WMF provided the means for knowing what's going on? I mean, most of the new uploads are either copyvios, useless personal images or out of scope pictures. Do they know how many images have been uploaded and how many have been already deleted?
If you're interested in following the stats, they're here. We'll be adding the deletion stats to those dashboards soon, as well. Before last week, the feature wasn't fully released on the mobile web; we were working on it in the beta version of the site. There were only a handful of users uploading, and it was hard to say what the quality output of the "real" feature would be, given that beta users are a somewhat different crowd (and a much smaller audience) from regular mobile users. Since last week's deployment, there were a total of 1,663 files uploaded, bringing the total mobile web upload number to about 2,200 (obviously, the majority came in after April 4, when we promoted the feature from beta to stable). As of yesterday, 557 of these were kept, meaning 73% were deleted. However, that number is somewhat misleading, since the {{Information}} tag not coming through meant that a chunk of uploads were deleted for missing author/source, not necessarily confirmed copyvio/other issues. I'm also not aware of what the current baseline actually is for new users uploading to Commons on desktop (it takes a bit of work to dig this out of the database); I imagine their rate of deletion is probably quite high, too. I'm working on figuring that out.
  • Has the WMF thought of running trials with reduced set of users in order to get some conclusions before the new features go life?
As I mentioned above, we did in fact release this feature to the beta version of the mobile web, which is a population of somewhere around 100,000-150,000 users, less than half a percent of our total mobile web traffic. It was enabled since November while we worked on upload functionality and UI and, to my knowledge, was not noticed/discussed by the Commons community.
  • Has the WML conducted any "market research" in order to anticipate which the behaviour of users using the new features would be?
Yes, it's here. I believe you or someone else referenced the (somewhat outdated) apps user research? Just a friendly reminder, again, that apps != mobile web. A total of 979 files have been uploaded with the official WMF Commons app for Android, which is currently being used almost exclusively by existing Commons users, and only 15% of those files (mostly test images, I imagine) were deleted :)
  • Are they planning to do any of the above before activating new features with a so big impact?
All of the above, it appears, was already done :) But all that aside, I do very much agree with what I think is your main point here – that there is quite a bit of room for improvement in terms of how Foundation staff reaches out to and communicates with local wiki contributors (and vice versa). Our current strategy of sporadically dumping things out on blogs and Village Pumps is less than stellar; we do not connect with the vast majority of users, those who just came here to edit/upload/patrol, etc., who aren't active enough to catch every thread on every wiki, or who don't care to follow most big meta discussions. On Commons, we also (quite unfortunately) miss everyone who isn't fluent in English. I'm not sure what the best way is to proceed. There are other, more far-reaching tools like watchlist notices or newsletters delivered via bot that we could make use of, though I worry about banner blindness and spamming our users. I'm sincerely open to suggestions.

Best regards --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 22:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Answers to your questions, inline, above ^ Maryana (WMF) (talk) 01:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The upload and deletion rate (the following for 2013-04-12, sources [25], [26], category member API query by timestamp (visualized by VisualFileChange): 14 deletion requests for mobile uploads; 23 speedy-deletion-requests and only 12 uploads that were not proposed for deletion in any way => about 24% good uploads and 76% questionable uploads, assuming that all deletion requests were for mobile/web uploads and all deletions were indeed tracked at the two source pages) seems to be still quite high for the web-uploaded files. Is the proposal to donate images really disabled for anons? Even if it is, these are not really acceptable numbers, Maryana, don't you think? Could you convince or sensitize some people at your work for this (general) issue at Commons? Just consider people would start writing 76% unhelpful comments at bugzilla: or upload 76% implausible, broken or malicious patchsets to gerrit:… -- Rillke(q?) 20:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

April 17th: I just tagged another dozen copyright violations and opened maybe 30 or 40 requests for deletion. What do people upload? 40 % of images are copyright violations, 40 % are against Commons:Project scope, 10 % are freely-licensed images of pets, mostly in bad quality. The remaining 10 %: genitalia, potentially useful subjects (but in bad quality), unidentifiable content, and actually useful stuff. Images that are needed (no better alternative available), have a good quality and are (as far as we can establish) self-made account for maybe 2 or 3 % of the uploads. --Polarlys (talk) 11:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

FYI: The portion of selfies has now crossed 60 % of mobile uploads. --Polarlys (talk) 17:08, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for improvement direction

The problem that needs to be solved is the following:

  1. Allow quick and easy uploading (from mobile)
  2. Educate users
  3. Cleanup contributions of users

The problem is that part 1 is targeted at noobs but is causing too much of problem 3 for community. And problem 2 for noobs causes this to be a problem that cannot be corrected by the community in the longer run.

So what about this: Make it super easy to upload, tag the upload with 'sandbox' state. Use accounts + registered email to follow up after 'simple' contributions. "We would like to ask you to follow up your contribution with a few more details. bla bla". Then have a dedicated 'edit page' that helps provide the user more and better information on his own time schedule and when he is near a real computer, which is more suited for these kinds of contributions. Of course a few more things are needed to assist in making this workable

  • Have the option to disable the notification
  • Have the option to send notifications of deletion discussions per email (Using echo ?) (per push would be even more brilliant of course)
  • Possibly even making email registration required for mobile contributors ?
  • Dedicated tools for the community to 'clean' the sandbox for the community.
    • Automatic expiry for the files that no one marked as interesting (these non 'interesting' files would be saved for just one week or so) (deletion with user email-notification)
    • Files that were marked as 'interesting' by community members would be saved for a longer period and the community can hunt down information that it needs. Some hover control in Special:NewFiles gallery to mark files as interesting seems like a nice way to create this functionality)
    • Simple 'Restore to sandbox/edit/publish' option for uploaders that had their files automatically deleted from the the sandbox
  • A mobile version of this tooling, that would allow the same for mobile users, though likely a bit less flexible than the full web page.

We cannot solve problem 1, while turning a blind eye to addressing problem 2 and problem 3. They are much more connected than people often assume. So dear WMF, combine mobile and editor engagement teams on this front to create a common strategy, before starting to built 'insular' tooling to fix small technical parts of the problem. Without improving the community experience, your newly developed tooling, although working and possibly brilliantly engineered, will likely be useless for the next couple of months (and possibly outdated by the time the community tooling problem is fixed).

And the community needs to learn that we cannot go forward if we stand still. Different types of contributors will come in. Deal with it and give people the time to adapt and change and test future strategies. It takes about 4 attempts for every working solution with a community as complex as ours I suspect. We therefore need to be open to try more in order to advance. It's the only way to find better future solutions. Is it annoying sometimes ? sure, we would all love to be able to succeed the first time round. However it's not the end of the world as long as everybody keeps listening to eachother and understands that changing things the right way takes time, a lot of time, if you cannot just throw 50 engineers at these three problems. We should strive to reach each others goals as much as striving to reach our own. TheDJ (talk) 11:46, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

That "sandbox" idea sounds like a more developed version of the "staging server" approach that's been mentioned before. I'd like to see that moved forward, I think it makes a lot of sense. So does trying to improve communication with new users. Rd232 (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, agreed that having staging be part of the process is a potential obvious path to addressing the signal/noise issue. IMO the main question is whether that's overall worth it, or whether other strategies to invite contribution have a much better signal/noise ratio. Keep in mind the mobile team is also building dedicated upload apps for Android/iOS, with built-in campaign features that will make it possible for the community to organize mini-contests and such. The mobile web team is also experimenting with an "Articles near me that need photos" feature. And there are many other potential ways to bring in new contributors. In a nutshell, at this point we're experimenting, and we need to continue to be open to change course completely as we learn things before we decide to sink too much effort into any one path.--Eloquence (talk) 23:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, more targeted approaches like that are likely to have better signal/noise ratios. I would recommend the staging approach for all uploads though (at least for new users); mobile seems like a good place to test the approach, but I think it makes sense more generally. Rd232 (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment This discussion is getting quite big and unwieldy for the Village Pump, and after some to-ing-and-fro-ing, it seems like the move to have some limitations from 9 April will keep a lid on things during further development. So I'd suggest we move discussion elsewhere, since this will be ongoing. What would be the best place? Somewhere on Commons talk:Mobile access? A Commons WikiProject specifically for the development of these mobile tools? Something else? Rd232 (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that's a great place to continue this conversation.--Eloquence (talk) 23:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
You mean Commons talk:Mobile access? (I made several suggestions, so "that" is ambiguous.) BTW Before I forget I want to mention Commons:Photographs of identifiable people/checklist as something I worked on for helping with COM:PEOPLE aspects of uploads. Rd232 (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Restyling the main page

Times have changed, but our main page really hasn't. We should update its look to match who we are and where we're going. Based on some ideas created over at the English Wikipedia, I've created a prototype for a next-generation main page. You can view it in English here.

There are lots of benefits, but I'll highlight a few.

  • It was built with translation in mind. All the text can be changed without touching the layout code. This makes translating a breeze and helps us keep all the main pages somewhat in sync.
  • It looks better. With a different style, it shows that we're looking forward. It also improves our outward appearance - more professional and refined.
  • No more tables. Our current layout was built with tables and cells. This is a nightmare for screen readers and totally frowned upon in post-2002 web design.
  • It highlights our best content. The picture of the day shines in a new, larger place accented by a gallery-style black description. Meanwhile, we showcase our picture of the year and some of our most dedicated contributors while encouraging new, quality contributions. (The MOTD is bumped to the sidebar, as it's more of a niche item - hard to fill, lower quality, harder to play)
  • It's a work in progress. Much of the content was adapted from our current page, so there's plenty of room to improve and change this prototype.

Thoughts? —Mono 01:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the current page is beginning to look somewhat dated (though not egregiously so), and I appreciate your attempt at minimalism in your proposed redesign, but I think that in pursuit of this ideal some rather important visual cues have been lost. The current page makes good use of colour, shading, and contrast to separate logical sections, whereas in your proposed design the delineation is so faint as to be easily overlooked. There is only whitespace and some very light and thin lines, which makes it harder to perceive the separation between sections, particularly for newcomers. I wouldn't support switching to your proposal as-is, though I hope if you have time you might produce another version of your design which better reflects best practices in UI design. —Psychonaut (talk) 06:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Sure, I can definitely make some changes - I'll try more colors, borders, and box shadows and I'll post here when it's done. —Mono 16:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Much nicer than the current page, I think :) While the flat and minimal is very nice, it doesn't fit in with the rest of wiki style (which is fairly outdated looking, sadly). Other than that, +1! Yuvipanda (talk) 08:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I like it a lot. Though I would say be careful with those nested frame borders. I also agree with Psychonaut that it is perhaps a tad too flat. But with some more playing around, that might be fixable. TheDJ (talk) 09:40, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment a good starting point for discussion, but I think we really need a substantive process for a redesign to play around with different ideas and debate priorities. A standalone page like Commons:2013 main page redesign proposal seems a good idea. (Partly modelled after en:Wikipedia:2012 main page redesign proposal, but that was a quite formal process, which hopefully won't be necessary here.) Rd232 (talk) 11:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

My only hesitation is that Commons will fall into the same trap as ENWP, which has repeatedly failed using this process. —Mono 16:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

  Comment In case some folks have never seen it, the French-language main page Accueil was revamped not so long ago and is already some improvement over the English one. Jean-Fred (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


I've added colors and more reliable box-shadows. Thoughts on these changes? —Mono 17:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

This is very nice Mono. How would this look on mobile in a responsive layout? Jdlrobson (talk) 20:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it won't work. It's designed with graceful degradation (it looks best on new devices, but still works on old ones) but the wiki layout doesn't allow for responsive design. There's a separate place to design the mobile main page and it could be adapted for that. —Mono 15:27, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
That looks awesome! I would not ruin it with more shadows and lines—(in my æsthetic opinion) whitespace or color changes should be used as dividers. Also, I would like the Picture of the Day box to be the same width as the combined Best of Commons and Getting Started, and please replace File:Money Coin Icon.svg—that cheesy icon conflicts the minimalist theme.—Kelvinsong (talk) 23:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
  • This looks very good Mono, thanks a lot for your work. (Some questions follow) Jean-Fred (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  •   Question Re: « The picture of the day shines in a new, larger place accented by a gallery-style black description. » First reactions: the image is much smaller than the actual, its size does not adapt to the available width (like the actual does), and though it looks good with your panoramic example, I am not sure how that might look with a vertical format (like today’s File:Sunrise apollo side.jpg). Jean-Fred (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, this is one dilemma. One idea was switching some blocks around so the picture could fit vertically with the black box on the bottom. Right now, it can either be really small or really tall - feel free to try it out. One way to fix that might be to build the whole thing out and then let it arrange itself. —Mono 16:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  •   Question Would it make sense to squeeze somewhere a big “Upload” button − a bit like the TranslateWiki main page ? Jean-Fred (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
    •   Support - A button that starts a guided tour which suggests adding babel templates and language-links to the user page and after a bit explanation about what is free content and what is in Commons' scope, starts Upload Wizard would also make sense. (e.g. Learn about how to use Commons and Just start uploading) -- Rillke(q?) 01:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  • We can definitely do that (try adding ?tour=GTA1 when visiting a page to demo something I've been playing with). —Mono 16:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  •   Comment The new layout, indeed looks better. -- Rillke(q?) 01:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  •   Info We are currently running a special script at the main page so anything that can't be achieved with plain wiki markup could be done with JavaScript and CSS. -- Rillke(q?) 01:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
What would it take to make this Masonry based? —Mono 21:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

V3 (fork)

I created a "functional version" at User:Kelvinsong/Sandbox/en, with automatically updating Pictures of the Day (that scales so it's never too wide or too tall), languages, other tweaks. I added a "quickstart guide" as well.—Kelvinsong (talk) 22:44, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I like a lot of the ideas here. At the same time, there are still problems. Sometimes, especially on smaller screens, the layout doesn't scale beautifully and there's a lot of white space. I like the emphasis on actions & contributing. Also, some things got flattened out while others didn't. I think we have to embrace one or the other. I'm still interested in a dynamically adjusting layout - I'll see if I can put that together. —Mono 19:19, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Unchangeable titles

Images from Bundesarchiv have a special description template with «original title». We are publishing the images from our newspaper photo-collection. Is it possible for us to have the same ability of original descriptive titles? Thank you for the advice. Переславская неделя (talk) 15:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The Bundesarchiv is using Template:BArch-image. Other institutions like the Walters Art Museum (Template:Walters Art Museum artwork) or the National Archives and Records Administration (Template:NARA-image-full) created individual templates as well. You can see an overview in Category:Infobox templates: based on Artwork template. Depending on what you are looking for, it would be possible to craft a new template for the Pereslavl Week. Please have a look at Template:Artwork and decide what parameters you want to add/change. If you are cooperating with an institutional partner, you might be interested in participating in GLAM. Regards, Christoph Braun (talk) 13:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the samples. On the one hand, in {{NARA-image-full}} there is «Title», in {{BArch-image}} there is «original title». Those fields are for original titles, and it looks they cannot be changed by simple user wish. Is it an except from Creative Commons license? On the other hand, in {{Artwork}} all the fields may be changed due to free license. How does this combine? Переславская неделя (talk) 13:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Smith, Chris.jpg

Hi, my query is regarding File:Smith, Chris.jpg. Is there a way for the original image uploaded under this title (uploaded 19:58, 27 August 2008) being used again? I've contacted the uploader but he seems unwilling to upload it again and I've gone through the Upload Wizard but couldn't find a relevant option. Apologies if this hasn't been posted in the correct location. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 00:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Save it to your hard drive, upload under another name, copy information across. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I've uploaded it here, would you mind checking over it to ensure it's correct? Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 22:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Pageview problems

I've been having some problems viewing certain pages in the user namespace these past few days. Talk pages of Turelio, rd232, some of my own user subpages (eg User:Mattbuck/Railways/2013 April 11-20). The page loads - you can see the full page - then immediately starts reloading, with the page going blank and the little loading circle just going round and round. It seems to apply to history and diffs as well as the actual page. It started a few days ago and was confined to Firefox, but has just started happening on MSIE as well, on the same pages. I have not made any changes to my web browsers, nor have I changed any settings on Commons. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Same here with IE. I right click, 'open in new window' (not tab), and it seems to work.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I've been seeing that sporadically in Firefox for a few months... AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I added bugzilla:47457. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:00, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I have this problem in windows 8 with Firefox 20!--MehdiTalk 15:48, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Yup, experiencing the same issue with Firefox 20 as well. Looks like a browser issue. The browser appears to get stuck loading content from a website beginning with "bits". — Cheers, JackLee talk 05:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I uninstalled Firefox 20 and Installed Firefox 19.0.2, today! But there is still the problem!--MehdiTalk 05:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Got that too on Ubuntu 12.04 / Firefox 19. Jean-Fred (talk) 13:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Problem has been solved (for me at least). See section below: "#Anyone else have problem with opening user pages in Firefox?" --Timeshifter (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

It is very complicated. :) See same talk section (and following subsections) below. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:15, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Cropping to avoid problems or prudery?

I'm unsure about whether to raise File:RAAF 1943 swimming nude. Expurgated.jpeg up for deletion/redirect in favour of the uncropped version at File:RAAF 1943 swimming nude.jpeg. The only reason I can see that someone might want it, is that though the image clear shows nude RAF divers, the full version gives a clearer view of some backsides. I doubt that the two Wikipedias the cropped version appears on routinely censor these sorts of images, and if they did, then I fail to understand why a photo of a group of obviously naked divers is okay, but the uncropped version would not be. Perhaps someone can shed some light on the logic here? Thanks -- (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Not to mention that one goes from a well-composed photo to a poorly composed one. But you might want to contact the person who did the cropping and ask about intent. - Jmabel ! talk 15:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Fæ, you seem to be suggesting that you wish to delete an image in use on two projects because it is a cropped version of an image you uploaded and you believe that the motivation for the cropping is censorship of two of the many naked males visible in the images? That would force the projects to use your original image (unknowingly if the cropped version becomes a redirect). Surely it is up to the projects to choose the image they wish to use? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
The uploading of the cropped image is absolutely fine, and we must keep both the original and the crop. As set out in COM:PS, "A media file that is in use on one of the other projects of the Wikimedia Foundation is considered automatically to be useful for an educational purpose, as is a file in use for some operational reason such as within a template or the like. Such a file is not liable to deletion simply because it may be of poor quality: if it is in use, that is enough". Also, from the same policy, "It should be stressed that Commons does not exist to editorialise on other projects." --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
However, if someone were to replace the crop with the original on the Wikis where the crop is in use, and that was considered preferable by the local communities, the crop could eventually be deleted here on the basis that it is not in use and that it is too similar to an existing file. But the general rule is that if someone wants to use a file in a bona fide manner then we have to keep it. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I also do not understand this crop. It breaks the composition and is disservice to the photographer. --Jarekt (talk) 17:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
In the Portuguese Wikipedia the image is used to ilustrate the diving article and since the two cropped men are not diving it kind of makes sense.--Pacostein (talk) 01:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
What MichaelMaggs said, especially in relation to Commons not dictating what images other projects use. Fae, you may wish to contact User:Ahonc and perhaps link to my diff, as uk:Кліффдайвінг is an article on cliff-diving which this obviously is not. russavia (talk) 04:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll look into it later this week. There are good reasons for me not to respond to other questions on this thread, as the people involved are fully aware. Thanks -- (talk) 09:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
If you can't respond to comments on this thread, why did you make this thread in the first place? Personally, I don't quite understand the crop either, but there's the old Commons mantra: "If the image is used, it's in scope by definition." So the images ought to be kept as they are as long as they are being used. --Conti| 09:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi Conti. Don't forget to keep nice and mellow :) --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
When a thread is created on the VP, the discussion is not just about satisfying the instigator. I have responded to relevant comments, or others have. The questions are not a problem, however I have no intention of interacting with a couple of users due to the personal distress and real-life harm, as a result of their actions, they have caused me and my family in the past, and it is managed. Thanks -- (talk) 10:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. Anyhow, I really don't think the image would or should be deleted as long as it is in use, even if I personally don't see the point of the crop. --Conti| 11:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Image source investigation requested

A student of mine claims to have taken a number of photos he subsequently uploaded: . But the quality makes me uneasy. The photos look professional (high quality) on one end, but are also of small resolution, more or less thumbnail size. Both add up to "found it somewhere and copied it here". Can anyone offer a second opinion (ideally identifying a source) before I start grilling him on a possible copyvio? For the record, I clearly told the student "take the photos yourself or get a permission". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:33, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

They certainly don't look like the uploader's own work, e.g.
Normal practice is to give the user a warning and nuke all their uploads. If you could also kindly ask them to stop then that would be a bonus :) –⁠moogsi (blah) 17:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Piotr, you can also add requirement of "full resolution" for own photos. --Jarekt (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW, File:아모르피카.jpg seems to be from facebook. --Jarekt (talk) 17:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Piotrus, are your students uploading these images of their own desire, or are you asking them to upload images (i.e., for course credit)? Just curious. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:10, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
They are supposed to illustrate articles they write on Wikipedia with free images, through they are not expected to so so yet - I haven't taught them how. One student assured me he understands how to upload good images, and those are the results. Please nuke them, give him a bunch of warnings, but don't block him - I'll talk to him. Thanks, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
PS. Can you tell me what tools are you using to find the source? PPS. Another student uploaded File:Ansan street arts festival.JPG. This seems more on subject, at least, but again I'd like to verify it is their own image and not (as may well be, sigh) taken from somewhere. Despite me saying clearly, several times, "take your own photos, don't copy photos from other websites without running this by me first". Aaargh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As for tools for source finding we all use Google image and TinEye reverse image search engines. See Help:Image searching for few details. You activate them in Preference/Gadgets/Maintenance_tools, and afterwards they add "Google image" and "TinEye" options in the pull down menu next to search box and watchlist star (at least for vector skin). --Jarekt (talk) 16:07, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
  Done all cleaned up. --Jarekt (talk) 15:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Is there a delay in updating an image?

Resolved Regarding File:Rachel McAdams, TIFF 2012 (bright crop).jpg, I uploaded a brighter version and it's not updating. The thumbnails updated correctly though. I've tried refreshing, clearing the cache and refreshing, and looking at the image and article on another browser, and the main image is still the original upload. I haven't seen a lag like this since last year. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 20:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, re-uploaded and now it's working. But Firefox sure is a piece of junk, it's the only browser still not seeing the update. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 20:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. --Canoe1967 (talk) 01:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

April 23

Deletion on quality grounds of used images

In recent days, I've noticed deletion of images used in wikipedias (in main space), without previously replacing them with other existing images. That would be right if deletions were based on copyright or other unavoidable reasons, but they were based just on "we have better images on the same subject" reasoning.

Such images comply with commons:scope until they are replaced in all WMF projects, and therefore they should be replaced before deleting - or at the same moment. If they are just deleted, the effort of deleting just worsens a wikipedia article.

I think the problem is that some administrators are not following current policies. IMO there is no need to change policies or desysop anybody, if we can make sure that current administrators are aware of commons:scope and concerned with avoiding damaging wikipedia articles when closing deletion requests.

Anyway, I don't know how to keep all administrators informed and concerned. Suggestion are welcome.--Pere prlpz (talk) 09:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Sysops should be well aware that files in used => files in scope − this is the bare minimum knowledge one can expect of any sysop. Have you tried notifying these sysops of this? This may be a misunderstanding. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:27, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
In order to evaluate the situation/problem, it would be helpful to provide a few example files/deletions. However, as this is admin-directed COM:AN would be a better place. --Túrelio (talk) 09:47, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I have added a link on the Commons:Administrators' noticeboard to remind all admins of this. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
In the first example I asked the admin to restore the image, and then I placed it again in wikipedia. In second one, I realised that the problem happens too often and a general solution is needed, and I came here.--Pere prlpz (talk) 13:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The first example: well, he just had Commons:AN/U#Fastily.
The problem with the second one could have easily been avoided by not filing a DR, but instead tagging it directly with {{Duplicate}}, as this template present a script which allows to double-check and compare the description of both files and, if deletion proceeds, automatically replaces all uses. With all other ways of deletion, the processing admin needs to take additional steps to achieve a replacement of the image's uses. --Túrelio (talk) 13:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The first one seems like a running gag to me. I agree with Turelio it was avoidable twice (first time by not filling a DR; second time by using {{Duplicate}} instead of delete for the closing sysop). For the second one we can remind sysops to process duplicate with {{Duplicate}}. --PierreSelim (talk) 13:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
A script can highlight (and template if needed) identical duplicates (Faebot already does this in an ad-hoc way), but we have no process for non-digitally identical duplicates. Someone really smart might usefully work on this, it would be a great bot. In the meantime, it might be handy if {{Duplicate}} appeared in the toolbox, at the moment I doubt there are many contributors that know this is an option and in practice I have found even experienced users apply the DR process for duplicates rather than this easier template. -- (talk) 13:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
That's a very welcome proposal, put the duplicate-script in the toolbox. --Túrelio (talk) 13:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Both deletion processes could have been improved and their results are debatable, but the biggest problem here for me is that both images were deleted because there was a better image in Commons, but images were removed from articles without replacing with the supposedly better one.
I guess that when {{Duplicate}} is used, CommonsDelinker runs in a "replace" mode by default, while after deletions requests, CommonsDelinker default is a "remove" mode. Therefore, it's just a matter of admins making sure of not deleting replaceable images without replacing in articles.--Pere prlpz (talk) 14:07, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The images shouldn't be nominated for deletion or tagged with {{Duplicate}}.
We don't decide what it's better or worse, we just offer the options for the projects to use. We just help it a bit every once in a while by updating a picture to one we think is better. Multichill (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment on inactive administrators

(Please consider translating this message for the benefit of your fellow Wikimedians. Please also consider translating the proposal.)

Read this message in English / Lleer esti mensaxe n'asturianu / বাংলায় এই বার্তাটি পড়ুন / Llegiu aquest missatge en català / Læs denne besked på dansk / Lies diese Nachricht auf Deutsch / Leś cal mesag' chè in Emiliàn / Leer este mensaje en español / Lue tämä viesti suomeksi / Lire ce message en français / Ler esta mensaxe en galego / हिन्दी / Pročitajte ovu poruku na hrvatskom / Baca pesan ini dalam Bahasa Indonesia / Leggi questo messaggio in italiano / このメッセージを日本語で読む / ಈ ಸಂದೇಶವನ್ನು ಕನ್ನಡದಲ್ಲಿ ಓದಿ / Aqra dan il-messaġġ bil-Malti / norsk (bokmål) / Lees dit bericht in het Nederlands / Przeczytaj tę wiadomość po polsku / Citiți acest mesaj în română / Прочитать это сообщение на русском / Farriintaan ku aqri Af-Soomaali / Pročitaj ovu poruku na srpskom (Прочитај ову поруку на српском) / อ่านข้อความนี้ในภาษาไทย / Прочитати це повідомлення українською мовою / Đọc thông báo bằng tiếng Việt / 使用中文阅读本信息。


There is a new request for comment on Meta-Wiki concerning the removal of administrative rights from long-term inactive Wikimedians. Generally, this proposal from stewards would apply to wikis without an administrators' review process.

We are also compiling a list of projects with procedures for removing inactive administrators on the talk page of the request for comment. Feel free to add your project(s) to the list if you have a policy on administrator inactivity.

All input is appreciated. The discussion may close as soon as 21 May 2013 (2013-05-21), but this will be extended if needed.

Thanks, Billinghurst (thanks to all the translators!) 04:26, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Distributed via Global message delivery (Wrong page? You can fix it.)

Hiding closed DR

Is there a way to hide a closed DR? I attempted to do so at User:King of Hearts/monobook.css, but it doesn't appear to work. -- King of ♠ 04:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Thanks to the help of Rillke. King of ♠ 02:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Category on designs by designer

I have asked this question before on various talk pages but haven't got any response there. Hence i thought of coming over here....
I was thinking that we should have categories something like "Designs by designer"; meaning for example all images that feature designs by fashion designer Manish Malhotra can be included in it. I think the category is a valid one. We have Category:Paintings by painter and Category:Buildings by architect and this will be on similar lines. But i am not sure of what nomenclature should be followed here. Also i am surprised that no such category already exists (per my search). What should the name be? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Your example was fashion, my first thought was furniture, could just as well be cars or yachts or spaceships. Maybe "Designs by designer" would work as a meta-category for "fashion designs by designer" and "motorcycles by designer" etc.? Just a thought. Dankarl (talk) 11:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Following the design disciplines, we could establish "Interior design by designer", "Industrial design by designer" and so forth. Using existing categories from Category:Design and appending "by designer" might be a suitable solution for now. Regards, Christoph Braun (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I created Category:Designs by creator which is for now a bit redundant with Category:Works by artist. Note that on Commons, we tend to be a more analytical naming as to keep it more modular/extensible, such as in Category:Product design. --Foroa (talk) 16:44, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, its good that we have many more example. Furniture thing had crossed my mind long back. But then i thought maybe not many named furnitures are notable. But if they are, lets include them too. So shall we fix the name "Category:Fashion designs by designer"? Also to note here is that Category:Costumes by creator would be something different, right? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
The costumes are some sort of subset of fashion (and clothing) I guess. --Foroa (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Well.. created Category:Fashion designs by designer. We can always rename it if needed. Thanks. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 07:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


I just uploaded File:Chitra Wadhwani (CBS), Thomas Danaher (, Sallie Krawcheck and Jon Ledecky (UTA Media Partners).jpg. It looks like it may have been taken at a party in the USA by the Finacial Times. Is there an issue of consent to publish? The Times has many more that we could use in articles from their Flickr site. I came across this one looking for an image of w:Sallie Krawcheck for her article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Consent of whom? Author? Subjects? Anyway the image was apparently licensed by the author as CC-BY 2.0 and the event was public, not private. Ruslik (talk) 04:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I thought it may have been a private function and thus need consent of subjects but I will trust your judgement. We also got a deal on weekend passes for this weekend and I hope to get some good pictures there as well as statues on the city art tour. We already have the app loaded into the iPone complete with a GPS compass to all the works. Any Calgary requests?--Canoe1967 (talk) 05:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to assume that even at a nominally private occasion, a photograph set up like this, taken by a named newspaper photographer, has an implict consent to publish - it's not the same as a random party snap. Andrew Gray (talk) 23:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

April 24

Rename Files? Wikipedia Zero - New user made a mistake


There is a volunteer photographer and new commons uploader user:Omaranabulsi who recently took a trip to Kenya and South Africa as a volunteer to document the efforts of the WMF in implementing Wikipedia Zero, and taking photos of ordinary people with the cellphones they use to illustrate the need for Wikipedia Zero in these places. He uploaded his first batch of files last night and didn't label them! I told him to please label any more files he uploads and tag them with 'Wikipedia Zero' too.

Does anyone here have a bot to relabel these files en masse?:

Thanks & sorry for the hassle. I think quite a few of these photos are quite good too.

Victorgrigas (talk) 16:57, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

w:Wikipedia_Zero <-- probably the link that was meant Rybec (talk) 04:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

For these images to have realistic educational use, they need more identification (intelligible, informative titles not just serial numbers), informative descriptions, and thoughtful categorization. "Africa" is not a suitable description. I do not see how anyone but your user can provide the needed context and detail. I do not rule out someone having a suitable bot, but just adding a little standard text and one category to these does not make them useful. Your simplest option is a mass deletion (speedy - uploader request) and do-over. Alternatively, you could make a big list and then edit the information pages to provide description, rename request, and categories. Suggest you start with just a few images until you see what is needed. Once you know what you need and what level of information you have, you may be able to get some help here or locally to organize and format it for upload. Dankarl (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

April 25

for fr:Cochon à dent du Vanuatu

after this french discuss, I would like know if this picture of Powerhouse Museum collections is "uploadable" on Commons. In fact, it has been made on "1885 - 1895" and of "Source unknown". I think then it's in PD but the museum says about photos : « for the purposes of research and study only ». What do you think about that ? Thank in advance for explications, and please excuse my english-1 --The Titou (talk) 12:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

In my reading, the "1885-1895" and "Source unknown" refer to the objects, not the photograph. The photograph is presumably the museum's, and in-copyright, and the museum's license terms are clearly incompatible here. Dankarl (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Over-inventive sanctioning

As per Fae's suggestion, opening a section here for discussion of made-up sanctions, like when ten editors vote that a particular editor should be called Nick rather than Jane, or they must make all comments in the form of a haiku, or other such nonsense.

It seems someone's changing my comments without signing their name to their edits. If you're going to change the heading, then at least have the balls courtesy to indicate it was you. Penyulap 12:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

You failed. Your posting is far to long for a genuine haiku. Next try please. --maxxl2 - talk 12:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
All sanctions are made up
Commons works by community
  Support haiku sanction
-- (talk) 13:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Template talk:PermissionOTRS#This template misleads people about the licence and is badly worded

Is there anyone who likes to comment on the issue raised there? --Leyo 15:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day 20 April 2013 - composite?

This picture of the day 20 April 2013 appears to me to be created from multiple digital images .. is this acceptable under wikimedia commons and community guidelines? If so here or in other cases does it need to be disclosed?


The image seems odd to me because the farthest two puddles have a distorted image but all the rest are perfectly clear. The very top of the tower (closest to the viewer) is completely clear in reflection even though the water and rocks around it are muddied. The transition areas around the edges of the puddles (image of tower next to dry ground) are a fabric of light spots and do not have any apparent solid surfaces or rocks. Moreover it is not clear what would cause all those glowing circles to occur. And overall it just does not look right - the tower appears to be unnaturally bright and clear.

I may be completely wrong and I am not opposed to compositions of multiple digital images becoming picture of the day or year - I am just wondering what the community thinks of this as a possibility. Do others feel digital composed images are acceptable? And if so what are the requirements on discloser? Preceding comment added 15:28, 20 April 2013 by User:Alan Dupree 1879

I don't think this image was digitally composed; On a more wider point of view, I have no opposition to have digitally composed pictures as POTY or POTD: what matters is the result. --PierreSelim (talk) 09:34, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Incompatible stipulations?

At File:B Yakimanka 12,10 May 2010 01.JPG I saw the text "Usage on wikipedia: consider copying the file to wikipedia's own image space under the same CC+GFDL license. Images on may be deleted at will; they are not retained on wikipedia." - Is this out of a fear of a deletion rampage? Doesn't this defeat the purpose of the Commons? Many Wikipedias don't want Commons eligible images WhisperToMe (talk) 02:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what he's saying, probably a suggestion that people should guard against deletion on Commons by uploading a local copy? (Though when I close a DR due to lack of FoP, I usually try to transfer it to the English Wikipedia if it's in use.) Although the text appears in the "Permission" section, I don't think it introduces any restrictions on use, as it's just a suggestion. -- King of ♠ 03:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)It's just the opinion of User:NVO, the contributor of that photo. Commons media are less likely to get deleted if they are used on Wikipedia. Rybec (talk) 03:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice if more admins could use Commons fair use upload bot (talk · contribs) before deleting files. Also, it would be good if the bot could support more Wikipedia projects, especially for FOP reasons. --Stefan4 (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
This would require changes to our interface/tools (so the bot would be an option there). -- Rillke(q?) 07:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Email permission-OTRS

Hello. Considering that the email containing details of the permission for this file has been sent, how long does it takes to check the email and replace the OTRS pending with PermissionOTRS in a file? Xaris333 (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

It can take a long time since we do not have many volunteers answering emails. --Jarekt (talk) 18:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
You can have an idea of the number of days of backlog by looking at the header of Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard. Currently it would be around 100 days (as of the last update, April 17, 2013). -- Asclepias (talk) 22:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I just had an image uploaded a week ago take about five days for OTRS to approve it. I'm not sure how the selection process works. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 03:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanx. They approve it after five days. Xaris333 (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Moscow 1982 questions

Wich railway stations are these?

As a tourist in 1982 we where shown this shopping arcade. At that time there where no modern shops. Does this arcade still exists? (File:Moscow 1982 shop arcade I.jpg, File:Moscow 1982 shop arcade II.jpg)

Is there a Russian village pump where I can put these questions to? Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The shopping arcade is called GUM, still exist and is situated at the Red Square. I can not recognize the stations but I will try. Ruslik (talk) 11:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
The second station is probably w:en:Yaroslavsky_railway_station. The first one is difficult to identify. Ruslik (talk) 11:59, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree about Yaroslavsky. The other one must be one of the other two big ones around the square: Leningradsky or Kazansky.

I will copy the question to the Russian café. Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:52, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

The first one is quite certainly Kazansky Rail Terminal (from the backside), you can see it on the piece of its tower at the very top in the middle. --A.Savin 18:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I also thought that it might be Kazansky Rail Terminal but I was not sure. Ruslik (talk) 19:45, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I have uploaded a new one: File:Moscow 1982 train station III.jpg. Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Two new ones:

The street on the first photo unfortunately I cannot identify (going to request the Moscow portal on Russian wiki), and yes, the vending machines are for sparkling water (1 kopek instant, 3 kopeks with syrup), in Moscow style just like this one. --A.Savin 08:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

iTunes Ping

Morning all! I've just been dealing with a user on Wikipedia who's uploaded the iTunes Ping logo for use in an article. However, he's used the incorrect licensing terms (he attributed it as a file Google own, and has released into the public domain), and it wasn't necessary to the article. I came to swap over the license, but found he's hosted it on the Commons. I'm not particularly au fait with how you would deal with things here, so was wondering if one of you could iron out the issues with the file? It'd be much appreciated, thanks. drewmunn (talk) 07:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I zapped it, Commons doesn't accept copyrighted works. In the future, put tag the file with {{Copyvio}} and we'll get it. —Mono 15:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Commons doesn't accept copyrighted works without appropriate license. I have certainly not waived copyright on my photos that I have uploaded here. - Jmabel ! talk 15:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
The idea behind my statement was we don't accept fully copyrighted works. Those include pictures made by companies and only the company can release those rights. —Mono 15:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
We do accept fully copyrighted works; Jmabel's works are fully copyrighted. We demand a free license, but that's entirely independent from the state of the copyright on the work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The Logo was fine, just the license was wrong. Fits very well into PD-Textlogo + trademark warning template. --Denniss (talk) 08:10, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Meh, it duplicates(a better version) anyway. —Mono 00:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit war at File:Piet Spaans.JPG

Please, some advice at File talk:Piet Spaans.JPG would be useful. LeeGer (talk) 12:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverted and protected against re-uploading. Will leave the users a note about Commons:Overwriting existing files. Not that there is a discussion about this photo at nl:Wikipedia:De kroeg. Multichill (talk) 13:12, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
The wrongly-uploaded version has been there for four years though... that presumably is the one that editors across projects would have expected to be there by this point. Perhaps the original upload could be moved to another file? Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Or the new one could be moved to another file? And if anyone can take a look on the dutch article related to this picture, ss it seems that now it displays the close up picture in the dimensions of the bookcase picture. Something is wrong but I can't see what it is. LeeGer (talk) 17:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Normally yes we would move the new upload to a different file. But... it has been that way for four years, and I'd rather go with the principle of least surprise -- i.e. use the image which editors would expect to see, particularly given the different dimensions. Provided the licensing is OK, of course. But if it's only used in one place... then yes perhaps move the new one and fix the one article. There can be references across the internet though and I do prefer leaving things be as much as possible. Carl Lindberg (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
We only have a valid source and license for the original, the uploader of the second version provided no info where this image originated from. I advised User:Mdd to upload the newer version under a new name while providing proper source and license. --Denniss (talk) 20:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Valued images

I have a question regarding Valued images. For example. File:Mosquée des Omeyyades d'Alep.jpg is considered the most valued image on Commons within the scope: Great Mosque of Aleppo (exterior). But now, after its minaret was destroyed in Syrian civil war, this image is not the best not accurate presentation of the current state of Great Mosque of Aleppo (exterior). What do we do in this occasions? --WhiteWriter speaks 20:29, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

  • My opinion is that the image has gained (for the wrong reasons) even more encyclopaedic value. If and when the building is rebuilt, then one may think of finding a better one. Alvesgaspar (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
    Why wait until it's rebuilt? Photos of transient things have way more long term value then things that will be there to be photographed whenever we want.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:35, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

April 28

Translate extension

Shouldn't all translatable pages use this extension? I see it isn't enabled here, but on Meta, Wikidata and it's already used with no issues...
I am a (self-flagged) translation administrator on Wikidata, and could help with translation jobs here. --Ricordisamoa 09:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It has been suggested here and there, yes. We need to work out a roadmap to migrate our current system − but let’s do it, yes.
You might be interested in Commons:Requests for comment/UniversalLanguageSelector as well.
Jean-Fred (talk) 13:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Ah, let’s do this already. See Commons:Requests for comment/Translate extension. Jean-Fred (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Please help test the new account creation and login forms

Hi all,

After many weeks of testing, We (the editor engagement experiments team) are is getting close to enabling redesigns of the account creation and login pages. (There's more background about how we got here and why ‎our blog post.)

Right now are trying to identify any final bugs before we enable new defaults. This is where we really need your help: for now, we don't want to disrupt these critical functions if there are outstanding bugs or mistranslated interface messages. So for about a week, the new designs are opt-in only for testing purposes, and it would be wonderful if you could give them a try. Here's how:

If you have questions about how to test this or why something might be the way it is, I'd definitely check out our step-by-step testing guide and the general documentation.

Many thanks, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Login worked fine for me. I still don't understand the intermediary screen where I have to click a link to get back to where I was previously. After I login, I like to be taken immediately to the screen I was previously, not have to click yet another button to get there :) – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 03:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Oops wait. Maybe because the login isn't implemented yet, but I noticed a several problems. One, if I click "Remember me", it doesn't. If I close out my browser and return, I have to login again. It appears to remove (I'm guessing) the original login's cookie, so Commons doesn't even remember my username—this is at the regular login. Two, after I login, it says "Return to Main Page" when I was never at the main page in the first place. (I arrived at my watchlist, which I couldn't access obviously, being logged out.) Three, after logging in with the new login, coming here and posting this response, when I clicked "Save page", I got a "loss of session data" error, and my IP was revealed. I get this exact same problem with DerivativeFX and can no longer use that tool with FireFox. This browser is nothing but trouble sometimes. So I would be sure to test FireFox 16. – Kerαunoςcopiagalaxies 03:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Hey Kerαunoςcopia, let me go through each item point by point...
  • Did you try this in a new or incognito browser session? This seems to be working normally for me. I tested the setting of the login cookie if you check "Remember me", and I get the normal 30 day cookie set.
  • The "return to Main Page" function is normal, and not a result of the new login design. If you don't have a referrer set, then the default you get is the Main Page, which is why it said that.
  • Regarding the loss of session data, depending on how you tested the login, this shouldn't be due to it.
Thanks for trying it out! Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 03:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

April 26

Hello. For sports club logo, as i understood, you can upload the logo in wikipedias of every languange, to be used only in the article of the specific teams. Why we can upload those logos to commons to be used in the articles of the teams in every wiki? Xaris333 (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Many logos of sports clubs are protected by copyright. As Commons only allows free content, we cannot accept copyrighted logos. Many Wikipedias do accept non-free content (for example does), but some Wikipedias do not, and the kind of content which is allowed varies between them. See meta:Non-free content –⁠moogsi (blah) 00:22, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
If the logo consists only of words and/or very simple shapes, it can be accepted here. Use the {{PD-shape}}, {{PD-text}} or {{PD-textlogo}} tag. If you are not sure whether a logo is simple enough, post a message at "Commons:Village pump/Copyright" for help. — Cheers, JackLee talk 18:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Xaris333 -- the Soccer team "fake flags" on Commons were devised for the purpose of having quasi-insignia to represent teams, without violating the copyright of official logos. You can look at the well over a thousand images of this type at Category:Fantasy football flags... AnonMoos (talk) 07:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

April 27

Thumbnails don't match file

This may be a repeat of the problem discussed above in 4.3 (I'm another Firefox user) than again it might not, File:Ramasse miettes à rouleau - rouleau.jpg is not displaying correctly, it was tagged as a duplicate of File:Ramasse miettes à rouleau - échelle.jpg and on first sight tht's what it appears to be, however it is intended to be picture of the underside-the rollers, originally I thought that the file had been accidentally overwritten and tried to revert it to an earlier version, which the thumbnails say is now the case but the file still displays as the top.--KTo288 (talk) 09:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed in this case, but this is bugzilla:41130 –⁠moogsi (blah) 10:06, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks.--KTo288 (talk) 10:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Not again :(

Looks like the same bugzilla with this file, File:Alfred Saker.jpg.--KTo288 (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. Maybe it's another issue with server/browser caching –⁠moogsi (blah) 07:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Also looks fine here. In general I recommend the steps at the end of this comment: - if that does not help, please send the software bug to the 'Bugzilla' bug tracker by following the instructions How to report a bug. This is to make developers of the software aware of the issue. If you have done so, please paste the number of the bug report (or the link) here, so others can also inform themselves about the bug's status. Thanks in advance! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Looks okay now, I guess leaving it overnight helped-must remember that next time. Thanks for your time and advice.--KTo288 (talk) 20:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hold off on the US Antarctic Program bulk delete!

Some of the images were reproduced in the Blue Ribbon Panel Report for the US Antarctic program, here:

Many of the photographers are listed at the front of the report, as being panel members, and employees of the National Science Foundation. Their photos at least should be considered public domain as US Gov't employees, and this report is certainly in the public domain. I think we can safely assume the ones reproduced in the Blue Ribbon report are PD... Oaktree b (talk) 04:14, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

On first reading of the introduction, preface, and other introductory pages, I see no indication of the employment status of the panel members [per se]. They might be [serving as] employees, contractors, or volunteers. That their affiliations are not listed I would tend to take as evidence that they are acting as private citizens. The implication is that this, like the earlier panel mentioned, was an independent body. There are certainly NSF and other federal employees identified apart from the panel. Dankarl (talk) 15:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Panel member bios begin on page 178. Many are retirees, there are also several professors. Quite a bit of federal experience there, i suppose some photos could date from periods of federal service. This is good data for a photographer-by-photographer review, but I don't think an individual's membership on the panel says anything about the copyright status of their photos. Photos in the report are generally credited, either to federal agencies or to individuals.Dankarl (talk) 15:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
While many of them are indeed NSF employees, the impression I got was that most of the photographs were not "work-related"; they're photographs people have taken while in Antarctica and then offered to the USAP photo library. (Photography is a pretty common off-duty hobby down there, by all accounts - lots of light, lots of time, and doesn't require much baggage).
On the report - if they're privately owned photographs and they've agreed to let the NSF reprint them in a report, that doesn't make them works of the government! Merely being included in a government-published document does not destroy the copyright. Andrew Gray (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Flickr uplaod bot failing?

The bot seems to be working, but hasn't uploaded File:Fordhouse Lane, Stirchley - old wall advert.jpg. Is there a bug, or a backlog? Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I had similar problems lately - looks like File:Leah Culver 1.jpg never uploaded. Kelly (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Working ok for me several times today Dankarl (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
It sometimes fails, if you try to manually upload this file you'll often be stopped with a message like "contains HTML elements..." etc, that's why the bot fails. Usually HTML commands in Exif data. --Denniss (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and uploaded those two files manually for you. As to bot, could it be issues with toolserver being erratic? russavia (talk) 23:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
I couldn't get either Flickr bot to work. Is this an ongoing problem? Rmhermen (talk) 16:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Images from Dutch government

Since Commons:Deletion_requests/Template:PD-NL-Gov/en occurred, I found that it's why the license was removed from File:DutchSafetyBoardEnglish.gif.

Is this image too simple to be copyrighted? If not, which license should I specify when I upload it to the English Wikipedia? WhisperToMe (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Is this image too simple to be copyrighted? — No
Which license should I specify when I upload it to the English Wikipedia? — Probably w:Template:Non-free use rationale logo
–⁠moogsi (blah) 06:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

April 29

On Wikidata

Hi folks,

I just created {{On Wikidata}}, in order to indicate something (Categories I guess) have a related entry on Wikidata − I don’t think we are doing this except through Creator template at the moment.

Some questions:

  • do you think it is useful?
  • it is currently displayed as a top icon, but this can be changed of course.


Jean-Fred (talk) 10:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the icon, but it would be obviously very useful if it is bot updated and the terms of it are in the searchable index database, so it could help to build a translation service. Current interlanguage links are not searchable. Hovering over it could generate a pop up with the first text paragraph in the user language. --Foroa (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
The sequence should be such... just like how it happened on wikipedias; links of categories should first be added at the wikidata entry. This is going to happen sometime soon. After that is done, wikidata and commons will be connected and then the wikipedia links that are seen on the left will vanish. This is going to happen, just as it happened on wikipedias. In that case, this template would not be needed. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
The icon is missing in modern skin. -- Rillke(q?) 15:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I think links to wikidata will be very useful, eventually when wikidata Phase I is completed for all projects within Wikimedia family not just Wikipedias. Then we will be able to connect to wikidata the same way wikipedias are connecting: through link on the bottom of interwiki links. I do not think we should be adding physical links from categories to wikidata, but we probably could activate some javascripts that can achieve the same. Something along the lines of: If there is interwiki link to some wikipadia page than look up wikidata code associated with that page. It can be a cross between this script used to simplify connection to wikidata pages from wikipedias, and User:Alex brollo/common.js or this script that, as I recall fetches data from wikidata. Too bad I do not speak JavaScript to figure out what are those codes doing.
So to summarize I think we should be making the links from wikidata to commons not the other way around, because that is how it will be eventually done, and this intermediate stage might be using scarce time resources to build a temporary structure, that will have to be rebuild anyway. We might be more productive adding old fashioned interwiki links to speed up future integration with wikidata. --Jarekt (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
“we should be making the links from wikidata to commons” : yes of course, this is already being done − Multichill is running some bots to mass-import d:Property:P373 to Wikidata items.
This template was only meant as a temporary measure while Commons cannot automatically draw from Wikidata the way Wikipedias do (meaning, Commons knowing which item is related, because Wikidata knows the other way around). But this is not scheduled to happen for many months.
If feasible, a Javascript doing this automatically would be better yes.
Jean-Fred (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Anyone else have problem with opening user pages in Firefox?

(moved from AN by Penyulap)

In Firefox I am unable to open any user page or user talk page other than my own on the Commons. Ever since I tried yesterday. I haven't tried opening the user pages of others on the Commons in awhile, so I don't know how long this has been going on. Nothing shows up when I click on the link. The tab says "Connecting" and the page is blank. No matter how long I wait. I do not have this problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. Just on the Commons.

Internet Explorer opens the user pages. So does Chrome. So does Opera. I am trying to find out it if I am the only one having this problem with Firefox on the Commons.

I tried opening Firefox in its browser safe mode (disables all addons temporarily). That did not help. Next step is to reset Firefox, or to reinstall Firefox. But that is a major step, and I first want to see if others are having this problem with Firefox opening user pages on the Commons. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Very odd. I'm not seeing any problems with Firefox 19.0.2. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I am using Firefox 20.0.1. I am using the latest regular version (not a beta version). What are other Firefox users experiencing? --Timeshifter (talk) 09:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I see a related ? problem not on all pages, I only can see the anomaly on my tp and only with the talkpage link to the page itself. The mouse hovers over with a text select pointer rather than a link select pointer. The sig looks the same. I'm using an older version of firefox to see this. What does your pointer do when you hover over the links ? Penyulap 10:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm seeing no problems with Firefox 20.0.1. Perhaps just transitory? Huntster (t @ c) 11:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)Yes, I've been having issues as well. Seems that Firefox has a bug (a known one) which causes it. If you click on the "go back" button, you should see something like "wyciwyg://000/". Bidgee (talk) 11:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
This gets weirder and weirder. When I left-click on the user page link directly, and then click the "go back" button, it does not go back. For example; if I left-click anybody's user page link here on the Village Pump, and then click the "go back" button. It does not go back. It keeps trying and failing to open the user page. All I see is a blank page, and "Connecting" as the tab label.
I need to run an MSE scan. Maybe my browser has been hijacked. Especially if Huntster is seing no problem with Firefox 20.0.1. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I've seen this (on a grand total of 1 user page and 1 diff page) in Firefox 20.0.0; the page loads and then appears to immediately start loading another page, forever. Going back in the browser displays the page. As above, it seems to be something to do with cache indexing (e.g. attempting to load a cached page which is 100% expected to exist but doesn't for some reason). I've not seen it with 20.0.1 but it was extremely rare with me to start with –⁠moogsi (blah) 12:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Mostly happens on user pages for me but I do have issues loading (JS for some reason hangs and becomes unresponsive). My user page loads but Hunter's doesn't. Bidgee (talk) 13:17, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Happening to me too, the go back thing works but is still irritating--KTo288 (talk) 17:03, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

See also Commons:Help desk#Page loading issues –⁠moogsi (blah) 12:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

When I log out I do not have the problem. So I am guessing that it is some of the custom JS I have here:
I will remove stuff one item at a time to find out the problem. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Could this be related to the issue mentioned above at "Pageview problems", which has been reported at Bugzilla? — Cheers, JackLee talk 13:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Likely to be the same problem. Raised it at bugzilla:47457. Bidgee (talk) 13:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Chrome problem saving user talk pages

Using Chrome browser, I've experienced 1) a marked delay when I try to open user talkpages, and 2), more disturbing, since 1-2 days when I write something on a user talkpage and save the page, the browser windows hangs and will not show the saved talkpage, except when I click on Refresh-page. --Túrelio (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Firefox problem partially solved

I removed the following from User:Timeshifter/common.js (see diff):

/* New dropdown menu next to the edit tab. */
/* */
mw.loader.using('ext.gadget.editDropdown', function () {
                "Toolserver. Driven by Wikimedia Germany"

When I returned it, the problem came back. So this is definitely what is causing the problem for me. I see Toolserver mentioned. Could there be some problem connected to Toolserver?

Here is the source of the above JS:

I don't have that code in my common.js but still have the problem. Bidgee (talk) 13:38, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Ditto, and nor is it in monobook.js. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Thought I found the cause but seems User:Kanonkas/warn.js isn't the issue, even though I can't load it! Bidgee (talk) 15:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Happening in Safari now! But I don't get "wyciwyg;//000" in the url. :( Bidgee (talk) 15:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe there are some user preferences that are causing the problem for some people. Also, some gadgets enabled in preferences. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

User_talk:Tollitoo1 opened fine when it was just the welcome notice. I gave a copyvio warning, and now it won't open. Don't know if knowing that is useful... -mattbuck (Talk) 23:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
It's just generally not consistent. I tried to open a page earlier, no joy. Then it worked (but others didn't). Now it doesn't again. -mattbuck (Talk) 03:02, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Note for techs working on this: I am using Firefox 20.0.1 and I am using https and not http. Removing this JS only solved the left-click problem. It allowed me to open user pages in the same tab. It did not allow me to open problem user pages in new tabs by right-clicking user page links. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Firefox problems only partially solved. wyciwyg

If I left-click on a user page link it opens up correctly. If I right-click on a user page link and try to open it in a new tab, the page does not open. It is blank and constantly cycles with the circling arrow. It says "Connecting" on the tab.

When I then right-click on the back button of the blank page, I see the "wyciwyg" address.


If I left-click the back button, then I see the user page correctly.

I confirmed this by adding and removing the same JS discussed in the previous section. Removing the JS only solved the left-click problem. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:45, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

You can usually hover a link and see the URL that will be loaded (in a tiny box at the bottom of your Firefox). If you hover a link that does not work or where the symptoms you described after opening occur, which URL is supposed being loaded? The one you expect or something like ? -- Rillke(q?) 07:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
When I hover my mouse cursor over a user page link I see the correct URL. When I click on the link I see the correct URL in the address bar. I only see the wyciwyg URL when I right-click the back button of the page that is "Connecting" (but never loads the page). --Timeshifter (talk) 09:21, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, this problem hasnt happened to me in a while, but when it does, it always starts correct. It's only when the page is loaded that it tries to reload itself for no apparent reason and never finishes. And then the en:WYCIWYG thing appears as the last page visited. Soap (talk) 01:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Firefox problems with opening user pages for Bidgee and Moogsi in a new tab

I have my JS the same as yesterday with that one part removed.

Today on Firefox I am having a problem opening User:Bidgee and User:Moogsi, and only when I try to open them in a new tab (right click and then open in new tab).

I can open User:Mattbuck, and User:Rillke whether I left or right click them.

I can open all 4 when I left-click them from this page in order to open them in the same tab. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I am using Firefox version 20.0.1, the latest non-beta version. The box for "Preferences > Privacy > Tracking > Tell websites I do not want to be tracked" is checked. I have a lot of addons. Disabling them does not get rid of the problems. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:26, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Now I can't open User:Mattbuck in a new tab. Things are not consistent. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I am also using Firefox version 20.0.1 I can't load the user talk pages except for the mine but I see them for a moment before the blank page. Cameta (talk) 20:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Is this supposed to be a list of people who have the problem? If so, I'm signing, because I've had this problem intermittently for a while. Your description with the WYCIWYG and the endless "refresh" circle fits perfectly to what I see. I went to an IRC room once and they didn't know what was going on. It's only intermittent, though, so I've never bothered to try to fix the problem. Soap (talk) 23:55, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I was trying out opening the user pages of those who were commenting in these threads. Since it was convenient. So it is a list of user pages I tried to open, and the results I was seeing. en:WYCIWYG is interesting. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Opera and Chrome. No problems opening user pages

I have my JS the same as yesterday with that one part removed. When I am logged in with either Opera or Chrome I can open the user pages and user talk pages for Bidgee, Moogsi, Mattbuck, Rillke. Whether in the same tab or in a new tab. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:44, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Explorer. Problems opening user pages

I have my JS the same as yesterday with that one part removed. When I am logged in with Internet Explorer I can not open the user pages for Bidgee and Mattbuck in a new tab. I can open Moogsi and Rillke in a new tab.

I can not open Bidgee, Moogsi, Mattbuck, nor Rillke in the same tab. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:02, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

General request: Please mention your browser version, in order to track down potential reasons a bit and make retesting easier. In case of Firefox, knowing the setting for "Preferences > Privacy > Tracking > Tell websites I do not want to be tracked" could also be interesting, plus potential plug-ins/extensions that influence HTTP referers. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 15:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I am using Explorer 10. Set to install new versions automatically. Currently, it is 10.0.9200.16540. See Firefox sections for Firefox settings. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem with any browser when not logged in

I am not having any of these problems with any browser when I am not logged in. I have not heard of others having problems when not logged in. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


I find in IE that if I right click and open in new window (not tab) then I can access talk pages. This may help until we solve it. Can anyone see if this method fails consistantly with any browsers? I have had it only fail once, I think.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

That workaround works for me with Firefox 20.0.1 on WIndows 8.
I get exactly the same symptoms as Timeshifter reports when right clicking on a user talk page link. The endless connecting only happens when logged in and for skins Modern, Cologne, Monobook, and Vector (but which strangely worked the very first time). Extensions Adblock, Flashblock and Session Manager, and plugin Shockwave Flash are all enabled. The option "Do not track me" is set. My Monobook skin *does* have custom javascript and CSS, but the other skins are all "clean". Gadgets enabled: ExtraTabs2, WikiMiniAtlas, almost all the Maintenance tools and Language select.
For each problem page the Firefox tool Web Developer Inspector displays a similar script in the head section:
<script src="//*"></script>
Firebug shows the same script element followed by a large section of (I guess) javascript, starting "mw.loader.implement("ext.wikiLove.local"" ... -84user (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Thumbnail Purge gadget might be one cause: when I disable it, right clicking user talk page links work normally, when I re-enable it user talk pages revert to endless connecting. -84user (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC) (Hmmm, problem also clears if I keep Thumbnail gadget enabled and disable both Quick Delete gadgets. -84user (talk) 21:45, 22 April 2013 (UTC))

After I disabled WikiLove in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-misc, it is also working. From the native FF web console:

[00:54:51.281] GET* [HTTP/1.1 304 Not Modified 155ms]
[00:54:51.402] ReferenceError: mw is not defined @*:1

Also, I see the page for a short time before the browser "redirects" to that wyciwyg-URL. I observed this or a similar behaviour (mw is undefined → blank page) a long time ago when I injected JS through Firebug too early (during page load). -- Rillke(q?) 23:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I assume the techs are on it. Does anyone know the first time it happened? That may help the techs out as to tracing any changes to the sys back then. If the workaround is stable enough we may wish to use that until the techs can fix. It may be a combination of code that are clashing.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I first noticed it a couple of days ago, but someone said it had been happening on and off for months. I can state that it is some user script, because stuff works fine when logged out. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Looks like WikiLove was the cause; since disabling it, userpages are loading without any issue (so far). Bidgee (talk) 07:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Disabling WikiLove in preferences solves all problems

It may not have been clear in the previous talk section, but disabling WikiLove solves all the problems with opening user pages in the same tab or in a new tab. You can disable it in your preferences on the miscellaneous tab. Here is a direct link:

After disabling WikiLove I can now open the user pages for Bidgee, Moogsi, Mattbuck, and Rillke in the same tab, or in a new tab. In all browsers whether logged in or not. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it works. Cameta (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
And I no longer have to like people. Excellent! -mattbuck (Talk) 01:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Glad I'm not alone on that, mattbuck. I made it clear for a while on enwp before I was indeffed that I neither gave or accepted Wikilove. God knows why we haven't disabled it by now. BarkingFish (talk) 02:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Same problem on English Wikipedia

See: en:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Hanging userpages --Timeshifter (talk) 14:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


We have deployed a change that should fix this problem, and have re-enabled WikiLove. If you see any more problems along these lines, please reply here, or at bug 47457, or at #wikimedia-tech. Thanks. BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 23:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

April 22

[en] Change to wiki account system and account renaming

Some accounts will soon be renamed due to a technical change that the developer team at Wikimedia are making. More details on Meta.

(Distributed via global message delivery 03:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC). Wrong page? Correct it here.)

Wiki Loves Public Art


Wiki Loves Public Art is taking off tomorrow and I wanted to give you a heads up. You are all invited to participate and enrich our articles with great photos of public artworks! Take this opportunity to have a closer look at all the fantastic art around you and upload your pictures to Wikimedia commons! When you participate you first take part in the national contest where you can win nice prizes and if your picture(s) is considered amongst the best (by the national jury) your photos will then also participate in the international contest. At the international contest you have a chance of winning a travel check of up to 500 Euros and a high quality print of your photo, sponsored by Europeana!

In some countries the focus of the contest will be on public artworks outdoors while in some countries it will be on museum collections of old artworks. A great mix that is! In the countries where we are focusing on outdoor artworks, volunteers have worked hard to compile lists of the art collections as there are no existing national lists (can you imagine?). This has been a hard work and this year we are therefore seeing smaller pilots in each country to try out the concept. In Sweden the focus is on artworks in museums and a lot of work has gone into initiating cooperations with Swedish art museums. To be sure where you can take photos, please have a look at your country's website and read more about the contest!

We have created the necessary infrastructure on Wikimedia Commons with a number of Upload Campaigns to get as much metadata as possible in place from the start. The uploaded images will be found here. Please let us know if you have any questions.

Kind regards, John Andersson (WMSE) (talk) 15:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

[en] Change to section edit links

The default position of the "edit" link in page section headers is going to change soon. The "edit" link will be positioned adjacent to the page header text rather than floating opposite it.

Section edit links will be to the immediate right of section titles, instead of on the far right. If you're an editor of one of the wikis which already implemented this change, nothing will substantially change for you; however, scripts and gadgets depending on the previous implementation of section edit links will have to be adjusted to continue working; however, nothing else should break even if they are not updated in time.

Detailed information and a timeline is available on meta.

Ideas to do this all the way to 2009 at least. It is often difficult to track which of several potential section edit links on the far right is associated with the correct section, and many readers and anonymous or new editors may even be failing to notice section edit links at all, since they read section titles, which are far away from the links.

(Distributed via global message delivery 18:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC). Wrong page? Correct it here.)