Commons talk:Ancient Chinese characters project/archive1

Massiv PNG upload for Clerical and Kaishu

 Done --Yug (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello Erin, I can make quickly image.png (using a font and a script) of the 1.000 commonest characters, in Clerical and in Kaishu style (traditionnal and simplified). I even can make the 2.000 commonests, allways in .png.
3 questions :

1. This is a wide copy of an existent font, which [USA] laws apply on this kind of work ?
2. How upload quickly 2 thousand files ? Scripts are welcome, who can do this ?
3. PNG or SVG : We can do this 2.000 x 2 = 4.000 files in SVG, but that will need 30 seconde by file [Open-vectorisation-save-close], I think it's not convenient to do it. Scripts are welcome but I'm unable to do this.

What do you think about that ? Yug (talk) 15:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think such images should be uploaded as PNGs. I think that SVG versions may not be necessary either. Kaishu and Lishu are scripts in use today, with ordinary fonts commonly available to view them. I think there would probably be a big copyright problem too. — Erin (talk) 15:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, just keep in mind that if need, and if able by the font copyright, we can do many png of clerical and kaishu really fast. (de:User:Hieke can help us for massiv upload if need. See his bot~) Yug (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, but although fonts may be copyrighted in the US, but that copyright doesn't cover samples of the font (basically anything using the font). That's why we have Category:Fonts. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 06:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

After reading Wikipedia:Public domain, I think you'd be fine in uploading the Clerical and Kaishu characters. Uploading in PNG is apparently the safer choice, as "a rasterized representation (e.g. bitmap) of the characters in a scalable font is not protected by copyright in the United States", but I think even an SVG might be acceptable. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 06:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Character need : the 12 animals of China

 Done (Outdated) --Yug (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

You are asking for old character to upload first, I think this little list should be nice because beautifully "Chinese".
Chinese astrology:

• 鼠 Rat, 牛 Ox, 虎 Tiger, 兔 Rabbit, 龍 Dragon, 蛇 Snake, 馬 Horse, 羊 Goat, 猴 Monkey, 雞 Rooster, 狗 Dog, 豬 Pig

And the natural elements :

• 金 gold, 水 Water, 木 Wood, 火 Fire, 土 Earth

Yug (talk) 16:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Supersed Gif images to delete

See this page. There is about 100 images to delete ! We can do it 10 by ten, or 5 by 5. --Yug (talk) 14:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear... this page as got far out of control since 2007! (+70.000 files now) --Yug (talk) 17:31, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Cool project

 Done- serie of thanks by the community :D --Yug (talk) 21:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

This would be very useful when completed! Too bad I don't have spare time for the Wiki these few months... But I'll help, once my schedule lighten up. Miborovsky (en) 05:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, quite! Thanks for doing this work. I was way stoked to find some of your svgs. Keep it up, I'm sure lots of people are as stoked as I am with your efforts. Dann Dempsey (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Just amazing! Thank you! --Xiao3cao3 (talk) 20:00, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Interesting Fonts

This website http://www.cns11643.gov.tw/web/download.jsp has interesting fonts, like the one with the Small Seal characters from the Shuowen. Harmen. (http://diary.itcn.nl)

Where are files?

 Done- Outdated request. See Commons talk:Ancient Chinese characters project's section Visualizing the work done for the 214 radicals ! for the ongoing priority work on Kangxi radicals. Yug (talk) 21:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I'm new to wikimedia and I saw this project, which looks cool. I read the tutorial on creating SVG files and would like to try some but I don't know how to find what has already been done (so I would know which ones to do) or to use the results of work already done. Is there a directory somewhere with the files?

Reference of this project

 Done, moved references to Commons:Ancient_Chinese_characters_project#References --Yug (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

These are reference used in this project: 細說漢字部首 左民安 ISBN 7801953568 --Anonymous

Then, let's create a reference section. --Yug (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Visualizing the work done !

: Answered  moved to Commons:Ancient_Chinese_characters_project --Yug (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

1. Ancient Chinese characters/order
2. Ancient Chinese characters/red
3. Ancient Chinese characters/bronze
4. Ancient Chinese characters/oracle
5. Ancient Chinese characters/seal
6. Ancient Chinese characters/bigseal
7. Ancient Chinese characters/songti
8. Ancient Chinese characters/kaishu
9. Ancient Chinese characters/clerical

Yug (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Great book on Oracle bone Script

 Done, moved to Commons:Ancient_Chinese_characters_project#References --Yug (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

高岛谦一 甲骨文字字释综览 it's out there on the web on pdf. -anonymous

File:滅-bigseal.svg and File:滅-bronze.svg

(imported from User talk:Srittau#File:滅-bigseal.svg and File:滅-bronze.svg)

Hi, could you help out with the renaming of these files? These files are used by templates in Wiktionary, but they are incorrectly named. is actually in the small seal script (File:滅-seal.svg), and is actually in the big seal script (File:滅-bigseal.svg). The move targets already exist, so what solution is there to correct this problem? Justinrleung (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I have absolutely no clue about ancient Chinese script, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt. I think the correct way to go about it is analyzing why the target files already exist and whether they may be moved to a better name. Maybe talk to the uploader User:Micheletb? Get consensus in a public place? When the name is "free", we can move those files. Being used in a consistent way in a template is a good reason to rename those files according to reason #4. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 12:43, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

The problem lies in that 烕 and 滅 are etymologically the same character, and neither have a "bronze" version" in R.Sear's database. That choice has been made in order to show how the character has evolved from its 烕-oracle version : the labels are literally incorrect with respect to the database, but there is not a big difference between the versions, and that sequence is plausible. "Bigseal" variants often includes the small seal version, so having a smallseal presented as bigseal is not much of a problem. Idem, later bronze inscriptions are contemporary to bigseal ones, so the precise limit is not very relevant. I'll try to check in other databases to see if I can find interesting bronze versions (or bamboo/silk, by the way). Michelet-密是力 (talk) 13:03, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Micheletb: AFAIK, the current sequence is quite wrong. No way is it moving from 滅 to 烕; it's from 烕 to 滅, with the addition of a radical for clarification. It is also misleading to call something the bronze script when it isn't. There are actual attestations for both 滅 and 烕 in the bronze script, but I'm not sure if we can upload them here. Justinrleung (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Apparently you have very strong ideas as to what is or is not bronze script, but I'm sorry to say, they do not reflect reality : those scripts have no definite content, do have large areas or overlap, and being a "bigseal" glyph does not precludes being a "bronze" one at the same time : "bigseal" and "bronze" refer to the place where they have been found (on bronze vases vs. on other kind of inscriptions), not to the glyph shapes, and some later bronze inscriptions are written with bigseal glyphs... The only script that has really been normalized is the smallseal one, all the rest is very approximative as far as glyphs are concerned : periods and shapes largely overlap.

The only aim of the Commons:Ancient Chinese characters project is to present character evolutions. So as long as the glyph series is basically intended to reflect the character evolution, not where such or such picture has been found, the series is essentially correct - because it is meant to be a time series, not an archaeological repository. When the time series is correct and the archaeological data is not, the time series has priority, and that's that. If you are interested with archaeological data (which is perfectly legitimate), look for other databases (such as xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian or the R.Sear one, the latter having some incorrections).

Anyway, the http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian database (which is the "serious" reference where www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing characters have most probably be taken) is currently down, so nothing can be explored right away in search for alternatives. Things may be different in a week or two, give me a ring by then and I'll fix the problem. Tschüss, Michelet-密是力 (talk) 05:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Micheletb: I've carried the discussion over to Commons talk:Ancient Chinese characters project so that we stop bother Srittau. Justinrleung (talk) 06:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

(continuing from User talk:Srittau#File:滅-bigseal.svg and File:滅-bronze.svg)

@Micheletb: Xiaoxuetang's ancient character database has been down since August last year, and I don't see it reopening any time soon, which is such a pity. Chinese Linguipedia also has a character evolution section, but again, I'm not sure if we have permission to include those images. I do understand that there are overlaps between scripts, but if the name of the file is specifically called "bronze", I think it would be misleading to have a seal script character from Liushutong (which may or may not be considered "big seal" anyway) called bronze just because we want to fit it in the character evolution. Liushutong has different seal script variants from all over the place since it's a compilation in the Qing dynasty. Right now, the English Wiktionary uses these files with each form labelled with the script's name based on the file name, so we would in some sense be giving misleading information. If the original intent of the project were only to show character evolution, wouldn't it be less confusing if we just had one single image showing the entire evolution instead of having separate files for each glyph?

Now, about 滅 specifically, I disagree with having 烕 as the small script (the last in the evolution) when 滅 is derived from 烕. Justinrleung (talk) 06:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: ,

The aim of the project is to show character evolutions, you won't change that. Incorrect script names are exceptional, but yet, character evolution is the priority, even if that implies incorrect script names (which should be of course avoided if possible).

When those pictures have been uploaded R.Sear's was the only reference used, and there was no bronze glyph available. Since such glyphs are available elsewhere the series can of course be rectified and completed.

My concern right now is, what is the reliable reference to be used? xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.twn is reliable but down, and I don't know what the reliability of chinese-linguipedia.org may be. Other databases copy each other most of the time, not always faithfully, and as far as I know there is no real guarantee that the files are correct and correctly updated. That is why I'd rather wait to see if xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.twn starts again, but you may have better ideas on that subject (what is Liushutong by the way?).

As for the "copyright" problem, glyphs by themselves are public domain, being thousand-year old. For PD data, there is no problem whatsoever to copy pictures one by one, as long as you don't copy a "significant part" of the database: the rules of protection for databases (derived from international conventions) do allow for limited downloads of publicly available data (as long as you don't copy a "significant part" of the database), so there is no need for permission. Permission has been given by R.Sear to do exactly that, but actually, no permission was required, it is mere courtesy.

Michelet-密是力 (talk) 06:53, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Micheletb: I think Chinese Linguipedia is pretty reliable. The guide on the character evolution section lists these sources for the glyphs:

• Oracle bone script: 《甲骨文編》（中國科學院考古研究所）、《新甲骨文編》（劉釗）、《甲骨文合集》
• Bronze script: 《金文編》（容庚）、《新金文編》（董蓮池）、《殷周金文集成》
• Bamboo and silk script: 《楚系簡帛文字編》（劉彬徽）、《睡虎地秦簡文字編》（張守中）
• (Small) seal script: 《說文》大徐本
• Clerical script: 《隸辨》

There is also another database called Multi-function Chinese Character Database from the Chinese University of Hong Kong, which is quite a new one.

I pointed Liushutong (LST) out because it is the source for most of the so-called "big seal script" characters we have. I'm not sure why this source from Richard Sears' site was assumed to be big seal script. While it has many seal script variants, we can't actually guarantee if they come from the era of the big seal script. Justinrleung (talk) 07:17, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done, @Justinrleung: , I've permuted the files so you can upload and uploaded a new version for the bronze character. The second 金文 seems OK to me for a -bronze, and the 戰國 (second picture) looks like a good candidate for a -silk.

This may sound silly, but I can't read Chineese (I'm just concerned with etymologies)... so there is no simple way for me to find the entry for a given character in a database if you don't point the relevant page, it can take hours for me to decipher my way through and find the correct entry page. Michelet-密是力 (talk) 10:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)