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Is this page too big?Edit

Recently I have been splitting out sub-pages for specific countries from the Commons:Copyright rules by territory, making pages like (for example) Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Algeria. It should be easier to maintain the smaller pages, which are listed in the main page. I started to add links from the new pages to (for example) Commons:Freedom of panorama#Algeria. But it would be more convenient to the typical contributor if the FOP information was in the country-specific page, so they would not have to skip to the list entry in this page. Three possibilities:

  1. Move the FOP description for each country to a #Freedom of panorama section in the country sub-page, replace the list of country rules here with a list of pointers to these sub-page sections.
  2. Add links from all the country sub-pages back to their section in this page, e.g. See also Commons:Freedom of panorama#Algeria, perhaps with brief summary in the country sub-page.
  3. Make text-only pages, one per country, giving the FOP rules for that country, and transclude them into the Commons:Freedom of panorama list entries here and into the country-specific pages. See User:Aymatth2/Sandbox/FOP2 for an example. The effect of transcluding this file is shown in the box below.

Algeria freedom of panoramaEdit

 OK {{FoP-Algeria}}

According to article 50 of the Algerian copyright law, it shall be lawful to reproduce or to communicate to the public, without authorization of the author and without remuneration, a work of architecture or the fine arts, a work of applied arts or a photographic work that is permanently situated in a public place, with the exception of art galleries, museums and classified cultural or natural sites.

Article 51: "Est considérée licite sans autorisation de l'auteur ni rémunération, la reproduction ou la communication au public d'une oeuvre d'architecture ou des beaux arts, d'une oeuvre des arts appliqués ou d'une oeuvre photographique lorsqu'elle est située en permanence dans un lieu public, à l'exception des galeries d'art, musées et sites culturels et naturels classés."

There are drawbacks to all three approaches.

  1. With the first it is no longer possible to see (and discuss) all the FOP rules in one place.
  2. With the second the contributors are less likely to spot FOP issues when checking the copyright rules for a country.
  3. The third may be confusing to editors, who would click on the normal [edit] link beside a section heading and see gobbledygook like {{FOPinclude|Algeria}}.

Comments? Aymatth2 (talk) 17:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

@Aymatth2: 3 should not be a problem if you keep headers on subpages with the text they head.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 18:50, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: Duh. Why did I miss that? It does seem to work o.k. See revised box above. It has to be the same header in the list and the country page, but that is o.k. This could work for the other lists too (license tags, stamps). Aymatth2 (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
@Aymatth2: No problem, we are all human. A risk with making comprehensive copyright info for all countries available on one page is that we may hit one of the wiki's display limits (typically "Post-expand include size" or "Unstrip post-expand size"), so we may need to subdivide alphabetically or by continent.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 19:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I already hit a limit and had to break up Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Consolidated list. I don't think that will happen with the list here, which will be smaller. There are workarounds. Big lists can be given indexes, broken up and chained together with More > buttons, etc.. I am quite excited about consolidating all available information for each country on one page, with reasonably consistent page content and links to source documents. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: See below for a simpler approach using the {{#section-h}} function that avoids the need for 140+ sub-pages. It does not exactly solve the [ edit ] link problem, but does avoid the need to use the same heading in the list here and on the country sub-page. I think it is the best approach to having the same content show up in two different places. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:50, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I think creating subpages by dividing them into /continents (/Europe, etc) would be better. --Leiem (talk) 10:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Leiem: The transfer into country-specific pages was completed a few weeks ago. It seems to work o.k. and fixes the size problem for editing. The present page "transcludes" the FOP sections from the country pages. There is still a size problem for viewing. You can see what it would look like divided by continents with, e.g., Commons:Freedom of panorama/AllAfrica. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:08, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Aymatth2: I think it is much better than the original one. --Leiem (talk) 12:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Revised approach using section transclusionEdit

Revised approach 3, same basic alternatives:

  1. Move the FOP description for each country to a #Freedom of panorama section in the country sub-page, replace the list of country rules here with a list of pointers to these sub-page sections.
  2. Add links from all the country sub-pages back to their section in this page, e.g. See also Commons:Freedom of panorama#Algeria, perhaps with brief summary in the country sub-page.
  3. Make a section in each country sub-page, giving the FOP rules for that country, and transclude them into the Commons:Freedom of panorama list entries here using the {{#section-h}} function.

@Bidgee: You may want to contribute to this discussion. See below to see how the idea would work. I would distinguish here between SME's (subject matter experts) who maintain the rules and contributors who upload images. A contributor who wants to upload a 1950s photo from Australia will find a page that tells them all about Australian copyright rules useful. They are unlikely to have heard of "freedom of panorama". On the other hand, an SME interested in FOP may well be interested in a page that allows comparison of FOP rules in different countries, with centralized discussion. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:25, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we need a systematic change. However, the per-country pages on copyright rules may be helpful for some of the longer entries here -- ones with a lot of detail could move to a section in the per-country page, with just a summary here, and a link to the country page for the details. In other words, option 1, but only for a few of the longer entries. I don't think I would make it systematic for every country. Usually that would happen when court cases clarify a few things; for most countries all we have is the short clause in the law. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
@Clindberg: My concern is with duplicating data here and on the new country-specific pages, then getting forking. The information is fairly static, but laws do change. I would be willing to do the systematic change – it is just a repetitive cut-and-paste job that would take a few hours. I would make a level-2 heading for ==Freedom of panorama== in each country-specific page, with text copied from here, then replace the content here with, for example,
{{#section-h:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Austria|Freedom of panorama}}
That would pull the text from the country-specific page back in, as shown below. (This what is in the Austria page now, not the more comprehensive information in Commons:Freedom of panorama#Austria, a forking problem that needs to be fixed on this and other country-specific pages, e.g. Belize, Burma etc..)
The {{#section-h}} function only seems to work with level-2 headings. Otherwise I could just pull the FOP text from here into the country-specific pages with no change to this page. The only impact I can see is that editors would have to go to the country-specific pages to make changes. The section headings link to the country-specific pages, so it is easy enough to get there, and possibly easier to edit and review since the country-specific pages will be smaller. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
@Aymatth2: Sadly, I think level-2 is too high for the task at hand.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 09:05, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: I will post a request for technical help. Any level works with {{#section-h}} on .en.Wikipedia. The problem is solved. Any level works here too, when coded right. Assuming the rules should be displayed both here and on the country-specific pages, the question is simply whether they are maintained here and transcluded there, or maintained there and transcluded here. I prefer the second but would accept the first as a compromise. Either way, the transcluded source needs a tag to show it is being used elsewhere. The long entries for France, Germany etc. are a separate question. Probably they should be moved to stand-alone pages, with a summary left here and on the country page. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:20, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Next stepsEdit

Assuming no objections are raised in the next week or so, I will start moving/merging content from this page into the country-specific pages, replacing the content here with a template to transclude from the country-specific page. Thus

{{TranscludeCRT|country=Bahamas|section=Freedom of panorama}}

Will result in the content shown in the box below.

No information available

I think this will help with maintenance when we spot a new law or revision to a law in a given country, because all updates can be done in one place on the country-specific page. This page will continue to provide an overview of all the FOP sections. The link boxes to the right will making editing from this page easy. If anyone has serious concerns, please point them out below. Thanks, Aymatth2 (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Note that this is not the only list holding a specific type of information about a country. Others include Commons:Copyright tags, Commons:Currency, Commons:Stamps/Public domain and Commons:Threshold of originality. This is inconvenient to contributors, who may not know the lists exist, as well as hard to maintain when a country updates its laws.. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:55, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@Bidgee: This section is the discussion which preceded your revert. Your opinion is welcome.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 09:48, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


In the course of this discussion has anyone considered

  1. The additional time that it takes to load the parent page
    The point is that loading the parent page is not needed any more if the information about only one country is needed. Yann (talk) 08:33, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
  2. The additional difficulty to edit the pages which are now subsidiary and buried in templates where one needs to have multiple extra steps to edit
    I don't see any difficulty here. Instead it is now easier to edit the information about one country. Yann (talk) 08:33, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
  3. The change to edit history for the compiled information over time which was to this one page is now basically nullified with the copy and paste to a smattering of other pages
    The edit histories are linked, so historians can see that the first set of changes to, e.g. COM:FOP Australia were made at COM:FOP#Australia. Tracking down the early Australia rule changes will still be tough. Going forward, it will be easier to track the edits for each country. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
  4. The change to watchlist history so that instead of watching one page, that there is now the requirement to watch many pages, and where each of these pages is now needing to be protected.
    In the old structure someone interested in the copyright rules for Russia had to watch COM:CRT, COM:FOP, COM:TOO etc., where almost all the changes would be irrelevant. Now they just have to watch COM:CRT/Russia. The new structure has been in place more than a month. If there were serious problems there would have been a flood of complaints by now.
    The country pages have all been protected for a month: see Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Blocks and protections/Archive 24#Commons:Copyright rules by territory/[country]. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:29, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
    To be precise, they are semi-protected.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 16:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
    IMO these small issues are overcome by the advantages of the split. Regards, Yann (talk) 08:33, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

 — billinghurst sDrewth 07:48, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

  • The needs of casual contributors and of experts in a given country are best served by pages that consolidate the rules for each country. The casual contributor with a photo of a park in Buenos Aires may find the rules for COM:CRT/Argentina, but will probably not know to look for rules for freedom of panorama. It is easier to maintain the country pages when the laws are revised, and more likely that this will happen. The downside is that people interested in a particular type of copyright rule, such as FOP, cannot easily track changes to all rules of that type. There may be a technical solution. A bot would
    • Copy the text of COM:FOP after transclusion and save it as COM:FOP/Rendered
    • Repeat every day, but only save to COM:FOP/Rendered if there has been a change
Users interested in monitoring changes would just have to watch COM:FOP/Rendered and check the diffs to this page. The bot could be used on other wikis and other pages that hold a lot of transcluded content, so may be worth developing. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)



Comparison of long page versus transcluded pagesEdit

Long page Transcluded pages
NewPP limit report

NewPP limit report
Parsed by mw1251
Cached time: 20181224072412
Cache expiry: 1900800
Dynamic content: false
CPU time usage: 2.032 seconds
Real time usage: 2.271 seconds
Preprocessor visited node count: 61053/1000000
Preprocessor generated node count: 0/1500000
Post‐expand include size: 260551/2097152 bytes
Template argument size: 36659/2097152 bytes
Highest expansion depth: 19/40
Expensive parser function count: 2/500
Unstrip recursion depth: 0/20
Unstrip post‐expand size: 81725/5000000 bytes
Number of Wikibase entities loaded: 0/400
Lua time usage: 0.459/10.000 seconds
Lua memory usage: 2.08 MB/50 MB

NewPP limit report
Parsed by mw1272
Cached time: 20181224070027
Cache expiry: 1900800
Dynamic content: false
CPU time usage: 2.788 seconds
Real time usage: 3.364 seconds
Preprocessor visited node count: 66791/1000000
Preprocessor generated node count: 0/1500000
Post‐expand include size: 1293221/2097152 bytes
Template argument size: 549052/2097152 bytes
Highest expansion depth: 19/40
Expensive parser function count: 2/500
Unstrip recursion depth: 0/20
Unstrip post‐expand size: 78786/5000000 bytes
Number of Wikibase entities loaded: 0/400
Lua time usage: 0.821/10.000 seconds
Lua memory usage: 2.38 MB/50 MB

Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template)

Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template)
100.00% 1478.599 1 -total
 56.41% 834.086 90 Template:Cat_see_also
 29.42% 434.949 300 Template:LangSwitch
 21.88% 323.532 91 Template:Conj
 12.54% 185.479 95 Template:Colon
 10.93% 161.653 95 Template:Full_stop
  6.38% 94.275 2 Template:Reflist
  3.29% 48.622 1 Template:Header
  3.28% 48.569 1 Template:TNT
  3.16% 46.747 4 Template:Navbox

Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template)
100.00% 2607.262 1 -total
 87.20% 2273.575 152 Template:TranscludeCRT
 86.38% 2252.095 152 Template:TranscludeCRTtext
 35.88% 935.504 88 Template:Cat_see_also
 32.25% 840.970 543 Template:LangSwitch
 13.08% 340.954 89 Template:Conj
  9.40% 245.153 97 Template:OK
  8.45% 220.414 93 Template:Colon
  7.12% 185.709 93 Template:Full_stop
  4.39% 114.338 84 Template:NotOK

  • There is indeed an increase in CPU time (from 2.032 to 2.788 seconds) and in rendered page size (from 649k to 748k). Most of the size change is due to addition of 158 "transcluded from" attribution boxes to the right of each section, which is unavoidable. Some of it may be due to addition of more detail on FOP rules in the country-specific pages. But the change is small and anyway this page is likely to be a lot less active in the future. Server load and user wait time will be reduced. A deletion nomination for a Russian statue will point directly to the much shorter COM:FOP Russia. Edits to the general FOP content will also be faster, assuming the proposed split of the transcluded section list into sub-lists like Commons:Freedom of panorama/Europe goes ahead. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:49, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


See discussion at Commons talk:Copyright rules by territory/Greece. Does "incidental inclusion" deserve a section here? Aymatth2 (talk) 00:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

copyright tags for FoP photosEdit

Referring eg to File:Moscow Stanislavsky Theatre.jpg. It has two templates : fop-russia and self. Since this guideline says that the rights for derivative works does not extend to derivation related to depicted objects, only to creativity of the photograph, I am not sure that self template is the correct one here, in terms of "remix". Please clarify. Altenmann (talk) 05:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Return to the project page "Freedom of panorama".