Template talk:Joconde
Latest comment: 11 years ago by Zolo in topic On Wikidata
{{tl:Joconde small}} edit
I created a smaller version {{Joconde small}}. I think that in some cases, it is clearer to have simply the Joconde reference along with other IDs rather than somewhat isolated in a message box of its own (see here).--Zolo (talk) 08:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I dont know about that. I think most users will know what is meant by "Inventory number", but not what is meant by "Joconde" or "Wildenstein". So I think that {{Joconde}} is more user friendly than {{Joconde small}}. Also you could argue whether the Joconde-number is the proper way of identifying art works. The invenory number should be enough to identify the work of art in any database or catalogue. Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 11:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's why I put a link to Joconde on wikipedia. To me the problem with Joconde in a message box is that message boxes are out of the main information form (or you can put them inside, but it doesn't look very good). Personnally, I tend not to read message boxes, since they are often not directly about the painting ("this image comes from WikilovesArt", "This images was moved by a bot" etc.). Joconde number is not an inventory number, but it is surely and ID. When the page is a bit long, it is much more readable to have all IDs at the same place, rather than scattered at various places. We can also put both templates if you think it's better. For Wildenstein, it should always be indicated that it is a catalogue raisonné. We can surely identify most works without that (even if it is what is most convenient for works in private collections) But it is definitely useful to have a catalogue number. As it is also form of ID, I don't see where else it can be placed in the current version of template painting. Maybe we should add a catalogue line on the template and rename ID "inventory number" ?--Zolo (talk) 11:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- By the way, I just created {{Joconde link}}, which only creates the permalink to the database : it makes it way easier to maintain the main template(s) in the future (translations, change of URLs in the database, etc.) (I've meant to do it for a long time but somehow I forgot of Joconde...). Maybe that is enough for the purposes you seek Zolo ?
- Overall, I agree on one thing : maybe it is not great to have big tags like {{Joconde}}, especially if there are many of them (see Category:Abbey Church of Saint-Savin-sur-Gartempe for a similar example...). I also understand your concerns regarding "message box"-link templates...
- Since I am not knowledgeable at all on this, I would have several questions :
- Can an artwork be indexed in several reference databases?
- Would it be interesting to make one big tag which could contain all the links to the different databases?
- Would it be relevant to add to {{Painting}} a new field dedicated to all these reference links?
- Maybe that should be brought to the Village Pump to get more opinions ?
- Jean-Fred (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's why I put a link to Joconde on wikipedia. To me the problem with Joconde in a message box is that message boxes are out of the main information form (or you can put them inside, but it doesn't look very good). Personnally, I tend not to read message boxes, since they are often not directly about the painting ("this image comes from WikilovesArt", "This images was moved by a bot" etc.). Joconde number is not an inventory number, but it is surely and ID. When the page is a bit long, it is much more readable to have all IDs at the same place, rather than scattered at various places. We can also put both templates if you think it's better. For Wildenstein, it should always be indicated that it is a catalogue raisonné. We can surely identify most works without that (even if it is what is most convenient for works in private collections) But it is definitely useful to have a catalogue number. As it is also form of ID, I don't see where else it can be placed in the current version of template painting. Maybe we should add a catalogue line on the template and rename ID "inventory number" ?--Zolo (talk) 11:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
ature-talk">talk]]) 12:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes maybe this should be brought to the Village pump or any relevant more specific talk page. Actually ID, Joconde and catalogues serve clearly different purposes. Inventary number is the number the museum use to identify the work, and is usually the simplest way to refer to an artwork. In many cases, the museum has an online database, and the inventory number allows to find easily the work. In some cases, the museum doesn't have any online database, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't have this number. Many French museum don't have any comprehensive database, but have some of their works indexed in Joconde. In these cases, Joconde is the best database we have. Some other, have their own database. In the case of the Louvre, both Joconde and the museum's own database have interest (Joconde usually has more technical details, while the Louvre is much more regularly updated gives a brief verbal explanation about the work, and sometimes provides many other comments). Catalogues are a bit different. A catalogue provides all or most of the known works of a single artist. So it is very useful when we search things about an artist and not a museum (which is likely to be what people do on wikimedia projects, otherwise, they would go directly to the museum's website). Usually, the catalogue number is not linked to any website this the catalogue is usually a book and is not freely available on the internet. Besides, catalogues numbers have other advantages for maintenance. For example, Category:Works by Van Gogh by Faille number, ranks Van Gogh's paintings in a
- Tl Joconde, as I see it, is intended as an extra service to the reader/user, to verify and to support information available on commons, not as a way of identifying works of art. The fact that a reader might not notice tl Joconde at first is not the end of the world. If tl information is filled out completely, the information on commons should in most cases be more comprehensive than the information on Joconde. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Now that there is a "references" section in {{Artwork}}, I suppose we can use my small Joconde there ? I think it is much more convenient to have all references at the same place. See also template talk:Artwork#References--Zolo (talk) 14:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Seems big tags are indeed deprecated with this new section. {{Joconde}} layout can easily be tweaked to be smaller (this way, we would keep the shortest and most used template name). Midways, there are other options such as layouts from {{IGESPAR}}, {{IVF}} or {{Rijksmonument}}, what do you think of them ? Jean-Fred (talk) 19:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Personnally I prefer not to have any visible tag inside the infobox -except perhaps license tags in "permission" when they are no "other versions" below. But since this kind od tag is quite heavily used, I suppose that many people don't mind it. In the case of art databases, there may be an additional problem: if we have a tag for Joconde we should probably also have one for every other significant database. If ever we manage to do it, we could end up with files having three or more of tags, (say Joconde plus Louvre plus a thematic database), in my opinion it would look rather messy.--Zolo (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- So I guess we can change the template to something like {{Louvre online}}, we can change the layout later if you prefer, but I think it would be good thing that all databases used in the reference field of {{Artwork}} use the same syntax.
- That said, a bot should move the templates beforehand, because as of now most of them are outside the infobox and with the new layout, they wil become nearly invisible.--Zolo (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Seems big tags are indeed deprecated with this new section. {{Joconde}} layout can easily be tweaked to be smaller (this way, we would keep the shortest and most used template name). Midways, there are other options such as layouts from {{IGESPAR}}, {{IVF}} or {{Rijksmonument}}, what do you think of them ? Jean-Fred (talk) 19:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Now that there is a "references" section in {{Artwork}}, I suppose we can use my small Joconde there ? I think it is much more convenient to have all references at the same place. See also template talk:Artwork#References--Zolo (talk) 14:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Tl Joconde, as I see it, is intended as an extra service to the reader/user, to verify and to support information available on commons, not as a way of identifying works of art. The fact that a reader might not notice tl Joconde at first is not the end of the world. If tl information is filled out completely, the information on commons should in most cases be more comprehensive than the information on Joconde. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
. I copied {{Joconde small}}. May be a bit confusing when outside the template but better when inside, especially when there are other links as well. I'll wait for some time, and if there are no complaints, I'll try to clean that up and then delete subtemplates. --Zolo (talk) 08:35, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Done I copied most of the former template here so that we can find it easily in case it can be useful.
{| cellspacing="8" cellpadding="0" style="width:100%; clear:both; margin:0.5em auto; border:2px solid #EDF551; text-align:center; background:#F2EFD0; direction:{{dir|{{{lang}}}}};" class="layouttemplate"
|{{LangSwitch
|cs=Tento objekt je registrovaný v [[:en:Joconde|Joconde]], databázi sbírek státních muzeí Francie [[:en:Minister of Culture (France)|Francouzského ministerstva kultury]]{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, pod referenčním číslem {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|de=Dieses Objekt ist in der [[:de:Datenbank Joconde|Joconde]], einer Datenbank des französischen Kulturministeriums über die Kunstbestände der französischen Museen, {{#if:{{{1|}}}|unter der Referenznummer {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}} aufgeführt.
|en=This object is indexed in [[:en:Joconde|Joconde]], database of the collections of the state museums of France by the [[:en:Minister of Culture (France)|French Ministry of Culture]]{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, under the reference {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|fr=Cet objet est répertorié dans [[:fr:Joconde (catalogue)|Joconde]], catalogue collectif des collections des musées de France du [[:fr:Ministère de la Culture (France)|ministère de la Culture]]{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, sous la référence {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|hu=Az objektum szerepel a [[:en:Joconde|Joconde]] adatbázisban, a [[:en:Minister of Culture (France)|Francia Kulturális Minisztérium]] által működtetett állami múzeumok gyűjteményében{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, az alábbi azonosítóval: {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|it=Quest'oggetto è indicizzato in [[:fr:Joconde (catalogue)|Joconde]], l'archivio delle collezioni dei musei statali della Francia, amministrato dal [[:fr:Ministère de la Culture (France)|Ministero della Cultura francese]]{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, con il codice di riferimento {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|mk=Овој објект е заведен во [[:mk:Joconde|„Жоконд“ (''Joconde'')]], база на државните музејски збирки на Франција под управа на [[:mk:Министер за култура (Франција)|министерството за култура]]{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, и тоа под наводот {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|ml==[[:en:Minister of Culture (France)|ഫ്രഞ്ച് സാംസ്കാരിക മന്ത്രാലയത്താൽ]] ഫ്രാൻസിലെ ദേശീയ മ്യൂസിയങ്ങളിലെ ശേഖരങ്ങളുടെ ഡേറ്റാബേസ് ആയ [[:en:Joconde|ജോകോൻഡേയിൽ]] ഈ സൃഷ്ടി സൂചിപ്പിക്കപ്പെട്ടിട്ടുണ്ട്{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, അവലംബം: {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|nl=Dit object komt voor in Joconde, een database van het Ministerie van Cultuur van Frankrijk{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, onder recordnummer {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
|pt=Este objeto está indexado no [[:en:Joconde|Joconde]], banco de dados das coleções dos museus estatais da França, administrado pelo Ministério da Cultura francês{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, sob a referência {{Joconde link|{{{1|}}}}}|}}.
}}
|}
On Wikidata edit
[1]. I love the way things are so simple out there :). --Zolo (talk) 16:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)