User talk:Auntof6

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Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Auntof6!

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Rd232 (talk) 14:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

«Вікі любить Землю» 2021 проходить до 30 червня: Долучайтеся!

Вітаємо!

До кінця червня триває щорічний конкурс «Вікі любить Землю» в Україні. Його метою є зібрати якомога більшу базу фотографій пам'яток природи України; для переможців передбачені цінні призи у різних номінаціях. Ви брали участь у конкурсі в минулі роки — можливо, вам було б цікаво долучитися і зараз.

Корисні посилання

• Інструкція з участі
• Перелік номінацій конкурсу
• У четвер 3 червня ми проведемо онлайн-презентацію конкурсу, де розповімо про правила й умови, а також продемонструємо, як взяти у ньому участь (деталі і реєстрація)

Більше інформації — на сайті конкурсу та у соцмережах (Фейсбук • Інстаграм • Телеграм). Якщо у вас є запитання, можете писати на wlewikimedia.org.ua --AntonProtsiuk (WMUA) (обговорення) 15:17, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@AntonProtsiuk (WMUA): I don't understand this language. --Auntof6 (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Adminship

Hello. Do you have any plans to run for admin? From the threads in your talk page archive, it seems like your main concern is that you are unsure about how commons function as a wiki. I, and possibly together with @Pi.1415926535, Taivo:, am willing to guide you around. Commons is in need of more administrators, and with your impressive edit history, I believe that you'll be an asset and will be able to help out with the huge backlog. --Minorax^talk 12:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Minorax: I didn't have any such plans, but I will think about it. Can you recommend any pages I can read to get a better idea of what the responsibilities would be and/or anything else that might be relevant? I'm an admin on Simple English Wikipedia, but that wiki is somewhat different from other Wikipedias, and of course Wikipedia is different from Commons. --Auntof6 (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

For starters, you can take a look at COM:GTA. If you are well-verse in copyright-related issues, you can take a look at COM:TOO, COM:DM, COM:DW. --Minorax^talk 00:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) I would very glady (an unusually) vote yes of you’re nominated. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 15:28, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• (talk page stalker)  Support Aavindraa (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Diffusion of categories

Hi, I’m struggling to understand why you created this category containing 5 files. We only have 14 paintings by this man. Why do we need to look in two different categories to view them. One of the advantages of being an independent catalog rather than a museum website is that we can offer a viewing of all the paintings of an artist in one place and you’ve just thrown that away. It’s maybe ok if you have multiple screens. How can you compare pictures against each other, if you split them up? We already have a problem with people uploading the same picture multiple times, because of poor or no appropriate filing. These pictures were already catted to Yale. There was no need to diffuse this mans work by separating them out. Again what are you trying to achieve here. Please tell? Broichmore (talk) 08:49, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Broichmore: It was to diffuse Category:Paintings in the Yale Center for British Art. If you want to be able to see all of the artist's works in one place, I would think a gallery would be the place for that. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I see, however the paintings are not defined by their museum rather they are by by their artist. You have diffused the artist in this case.

A painting is defined by its content, not by the wall of some museum its hanging on.

This over diffusion of of cataloguing images is robbing us of the opportunities of matching a painting to its original draft; be it sketch or wash. We can no longer see it against it's lithographic version either. Or its companion piece in a set if we only have a painting of one and an engraving of the other. To do that we need multiple screens, 4 as described here.

If you want to do something like this, obviously you legally can. Should you not also copy the images in the main cat, as we do by images from Google art project?

As an aside galleries are a waste of resources, they need maintenance and that's seldom done. They get in the way of search, because they have precedence they are always presented first. They are fundamentally more suited to Wikipedia than here. They're for a far different audience. Anybody that's catting unknown files in a serious way just doesn't use them. Broichmore (talk) 09:37, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree with the "over diffusion" complaint, especially that such diffusion is "robbing us of the opportunities of matching". I have felt the same way. This applies to other categories as well. Perhaps one of the problems of using Cat-a-lot without actually looking at each image? Krok6kola (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The "diffusion of categories" complaint seems to be a case of wanting to see the images instead of wanting to find them. The category system enables us to search in more dimensions, including the question of where, when it comes to items like paintings. At the time of writing, the category Category:Paintings by museum by artist covers the location of the works of 538 painters, and - when fully categorized - the works of Marcellus Laroon the Younger would fit neatly there. So the category provided by Auntof6 is just one step in the right directon, and should be applauded instead of criticized. Cheers Rsteen (talk) 04:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I pondered this myself, when I considered creating Category:Paintings by Gustav Klimt in the National Gallery, Prague. It would have exactly 2 paintings (Category:Water Castle (Klimt) and Category:The Maiden (Klimt)), if their online catalogue is up-to-date. It seems that creating the category is one step in the right direction (towards completeness). Aavindraa (talk) 05:39, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Rsteen:Paintings by Pablo Picasso are spread over a 1000 museums.

Rather than have one place to find them, your advocating that creating 1000 sub cats to store and separate them into, is an optimal improvement on seeing? The preferred way. Are you?

Your saying a painting is defined by its museum, not by its content?

The only reliable search query on commons (even better than artist), is museum ownership, but that tells you nothing about the content of the file. You seem to think content is secondary, or that filing images is better served by classification rather than the visual. Really?

There is an ongoing argument on wikimedia, on whether or not "museum ownership" should be a hidden cat or not. If its hidden then its a supplementary cat as I alluded to earlier. IMO they should not be hidden cats, but they are supplementary and secondary.

If some admin makes your "by museum" cats hidden, What then? Broichmore (talk)

I don't know why this topic has been hijacked here, I'm going to move it to the Village Pump where it belongs. Cheers. Broichmore (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Autofun6 Hi, So you have no objection then, to my copying the file from "Paintings by Marcellus Laroon the Younger in the Yale Center for British Art" back into "Marcellus Laroon the Younger"? Broichmore (talk) 10:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Broichmore: I would object to that because it would result in a violation of the policy about over-categorization. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Not doing it is overcatting. Over catting is where you have to open two screens to see the same subject matter or not?

I would suggest that galleries are a different branch from an artists body of work.Broichmore (talk) 10:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Overcatting is when something (a file, a category, or something else) is in two or more places in one branch of the category tree. For example, if you put the category for a person under both Category:People of France and Category:People of Paris, that is overcatting because Category:People of Paris is already included under Category:People of France. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:37, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, of course, people are people. That's a branch all of its own. No real argument. Leaving aside common sense, for the moment, after all Proust and Dumas, are people of France, not just Paris.

However painting (an artist's body of work) is a different thing to Museum collections or buildings. A different branch!

A sign of over catting is where you have to open two screens to see the same subject matter or not?

Again this artist is defined by their body of work (the very definition of a branch) not the museums he's hanging in.

I would remind you there are Admins here convinced that collections are hidden cats and can and will make your Yale cat hidden, without consensus, whether you like it or not. What then? Broichmore (talk) 11:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I see you just added yet another art cat to File:The "Kearsarge" at Boulogne MET DT204991.jpg. Actually not adding a cat but burying it further down the in the MET's collection. Hiding it in effect.

Other than one of it's cats defining it as a Manet. This file has 3 other cats. None of which define the significance of its contents. You never thought to define it otherwise, in other words make it useful in the real world...

By burying it further in the morass of trivial art cats, of which it has 4. You have obscured the issue that this is in fact one picture, of a named ship, that is duplicated a further three times on commons. All of them jpg's.

Why not fix that?

This picture is in fact represented in 11 artcats, and another assigning it to Mr. and Mrs. Henry R. Kravis Gift.

Three of them only have one defining cat assigned to them. Fortunately that happens to be a specific 'exact' defining cat.

Two separate of the images are assigned to non art cats. Unfortunately they are pretty weak and not actually helpful.

So the image has only one useful cat, two debatably at the very most. Not good is it?

This just goes to prove the how assigning art cats is a hit and miss approach and inadequate to defining an image.

Yet you scorn me for pointing out this failure in the system. Broichmore (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Broichmore: I don't understand everything you're referring to. Eleven categories? I don't see that many on the one image you mentioned, even counting the administrative cats. In any case, we obviously have different ideas of how things should be categorized. I'm sorry you don't agree with mine, but what I'm doing is pretty standard across Commons' content for many museums. Be aware that I am not finished with what I'm doing. After diffusing the main category, it will be much easier to look in the subcategories for multiples of individual paintings and group them together with better categorization. If you have spotted more images of something I have changed a category on, it might be that it's not in the category I'm currently working with and that therefore I wouldn't have seen it. Rather than complain that I don't see everything all the time, you could either point out where those duplicates are or you could change them yourself.

Regarding your comment about categories being made hidden, I see no categories in Category:Hidden categories like the one you originally mentioned, so I am not worried about the categories I create being made hidden.

As for your edit summary pointing out that I hadn't replied to your previous message, I had no response to it so I said nothing. In future, I would appreciate you not accusing me of being rude, even in an edit summary. You'd be more likely to get a response if you're at least civil, if not actually polite. --Auntof6 (talk) 08:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Point taken Auntof6.

I'm in trouble if I cant get my point over, about the shortcomings of filing as we know it.

Take Manet's painting of the Kearsarge as an example, and how it's catted (None of these are hidden cats. I have excluded them from this list).

A jpg image of this painting can be found in 20 cats (often single copies), namely:

Category:Marine paintings in the Metropolitan Museum of Art

Category:Department of European Paintings, Metropolitan Museum of Art

Category:Paintings by Édouard Manet in the Metropolitan Museum of Art

Category:Marine paintings in the Metropolitan Museum of Art

Category:Department of European Paintings, Metropolitan Museum of Art

Category:Paintings of seascapes by Édouard Manet

Category:Oil paintings of seascapes

Category:19th-century sailing ships in paintings

Category:Breaking ocean waves in art

Category:Paintings of Pas-de-Calais

Category:1864 paintings in the United States|Manet

Category:Paintings of seascapes by Édouard Manet

Category:Mr. and Mrs. Henry R. Kravis Gift

Category:1864 paintings

Category:Paintings of ships

Category:Paintings of boats

Category:Boulogne-sur-Mer in art

Category:Boats in Pas-de-Calais]]

Category:USS Kearsarge (ship, 1861)

Category:Boulogne-sur-Mer

That's 5 cats at the MET; a total of 17 different art cats. There are only 2 sub cats of the artist. Only the last two cats are route specific, and defining.

Of the four images one has 9 cats, one has 6 cats, and two only have 4 cats.

My contention is that art is a branch, as is the location depicted, as is the ship depicted.

What I mean by over diffusion of cataloguing images or hiding them is, where a main cat (branch), like a battle, has no images in it but has multiple sub cats. Example Battle of Foo may have Paintings of the Battle of Foo, Engravings of the Battle of Foo, Drawings of the Battle of Foo, Cartoons of the battle of Foo, Battle of Foo in art, etc... In that case you would need 5 screens open for an overview.

To assess Category:Marcellus Laroon the Younger. You need 3 screens open.

That is robbing us of the opportunities of matching a painting to its original draft; be it sketch or wash. We can no longer see it against it's lithographic version either. Or its companion piece in a set if we only have a painting of one and an engraving of the other. To do that we need multiple screens, 4 or more as described here in this paragraph. Separate screens may be required, open, to view a single image's different versions I.E. sketches, paintings, wash (watercolour), Lithograph / engraving. etc, aquatint, other picture in a set...

The policy about over-categorization is either poorly written and understood when offering guidelines about branches or it's inadequate, if not broken. It needs fixing...

Hope this helps? Broichmore (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

"To assess Category:... [y]ou need 3 screens open." Fair point, but this can be viewed as a shortcoming of the user interface. I'm hoping to address this soon by adding a feature to load nested categories to my userscript. I've already coded a rudimentary version of dynamic pagination. Repo here: https://github.com/avindra/mikiwedia Aavindraa (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Broichmore completely. Hopefully Aavindraa will fix this problem for User:Aavindraa/common.js.@Aavindraa: How will we know when this feature is available? Krok6kola (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm hoping to have something ready this week (by Friday). I'll ping you and a few others I think might be interested when its ready. Aavindraa (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

borobudur

gets dumped by very perspicacious and perhaps very illiterate uploaders - so if it is indeed not a metacat - could you please kind editor please explain to me why or how one can warn dumpers that lack of description and a pointless allocation of a very pointless general category might be distinguished with more qualifying items such as date or location - any effort appreciated to explain what I have misunderstood would be appreciated. JarrahTree (talk) 12:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK so I have identified from conversation directly above, and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:List_of_meta_category_criteria into a territory of diffusion and meta cat - it would be great to have in simple terms, if there is a simpler tag I havent found yet that says 'items here should be in sub cats and not this cat' without upsetting anyone? JarrahTree (talk) 12:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: How about {{Categorise}}? --Auntof6 (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much - apologies for the ignorance that I exhibit on the subject - I appreciate your suggestion JarrahTree (talk) 13:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Category check

Category:Females by hair color by country

Category:Males by hair color by country

Category:Women by hair color by country

Category:Men by hair color by country

Could you please go through these categories to see if i messed something up? I have a feeling something's not right so i'll be grateful to hear a third party opinion before i create more categories --Trade (talk) 22:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you should delete these categorises or never start them. How are you going to handle brunettes who dye their hair, and then go grey.?

Or even the current habit of footballers who dye their hair different colours 4 times a year.

We have zillions of files awaiting categorisation, and few to do it, why waste time here? Broichmore (talk) 10:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Broichmore: We're all volunteers here, and we work on the things that interest us, that we think are important, or that we choose for some other reason. Not everyone wants to work on the same things, so none of us will always be happy about what others work on.

As far as your specific question, images wohld be categorized by the hair color shown in the image, regardless of what color hair the depicted might have at some other time or in other images. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Trade: With this kind of category, where the attribute in question isn't automatically the same during a person's whole lifetime, we don't include categories for specific people. An example of this is Category:Men with beards, which used to include categories for individual men. I would go into these categories and all of their subcategories, find the categories for individual people, and remove those categories. You can copy the individual files into the hair color categories instead. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

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