User talk:Daeva Trạc/Archive 2

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar

While you have received a lot of criticism and I personally agree with a lot of criticism, everything you did was in service of the readers and you've shown that you're willing to improve yourself. Because of all the negativity you've experienced last week I want you to feel that your presence is at least somewhat appreciated by some of us. -- Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 09:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Donald Trung, it helps cheer me up. I heard that you are also stressful because of Wiki drama? Sorry to hear that. Internet sometimes affects us in our real life word. For me, I will probably just improve my maps. English-Wiki doesn’t have as many things that’s needed to improve as Vietnamese version, but since now I can’t no longer work there, I will just reduce a lot of times here. Thank you for your helps all the time, I appreciate that. But you probably shouldn’t care more about my situation as it will cause more problems to your own health.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

My main problems are offline, I prefer to find relaxation in researching subjects and contributing to human knowledge, but WikiDrama just makes this hobby a lot less fun when you get involved into it. I like helping other people.
Sad that I couldn't help more. Maybe when Musée Annam comes with another sock I'll try to point that to a CU to try to showcase that you can't be the same person, but lately he seems to be less active at the Wikimedia Commons. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 10:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

You have helped a lot. Maybe you will see me around again, we may even meet each other in real life. Who knows.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 11:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

OK, tôi nghĩ rằng Donald Trung có nhiều kinh nghiệm về C nên tôi nghĩ mình nên lắng nghe. Daeva Trạc tôi muốn nói là sự tức giận đó là dành cho C chứ ko phải bạn và mong bạn ko phiền lòng và tôi tin tưởng Donald Trung như sự bảo lãnh cho bạn và bây giờ tôi sẽ về wiki tiếng Việt để có thể bảo lãnh cho bạn tại đó TUIBAJAVE (talk) 12:21, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Không sao đâu @TUIBAJAVE, sau khi nghe kể về C thì tôi cũng phần nào hiểu được sự tức giận của mọi người. Tôi cũng mắc các sai lầm mà bạn đã nêu và cũng sẵn sàng nhận hình phạt, chỉ là tôi không muốn bị gán trọng tội như vậy và bị cấm vĩnh viễn vì điều đó.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

File:Ukraine irredentism.jpg

File:Ukraine irredentism.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

PsichoPuzo (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

File:RVN National Police flag.png

I have a question. At the file as in the title of this section, you provide the source for the flag you uploaded, at page 65, but when I went to that link, what I saw was a black and white image. So I wonder which source do you rely on to upload/create a colored flag when it references a source that shows a black and white flag. I need a satisfactory explanation. Mạnh An (talk) 03:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for late reply @Mạnh An, the color was based on this book here 1, on page 238.

Though this flag was hanged vertically, while in the black-white poster, it was hanged horizontally.— Daeva Trạc (talk) 13:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

File:The revolution of rats.jpg

File:The revolution of rats.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

Mạnh An (talk) 08:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity

Will you ever return to finding fictional flags? And if not, are there fictional flags that you found that aren't at the Wikimedia Commons yet?

I was thinking of making a Nguyen Lords flag to add to the section debunking them, but I wasn't sure if there are more fictional flags circulating around. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 11:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Good to see you again @Donald Trung. I think the Nguyễn lord flag is the last one that needs to be debunk. Other flags I found are just another versions of what we already know (or not famous enough to be concerned). For me, I would just stick with the maps stuff for now. I’m actually working on a pretty big project for Wikimedia:)

Not like it will be accepted and used, but it’s fun — Daeva Trạc (talk) 11:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad you're having fun at least, I was having fun until someone told me about a hoax, I didn't want to remove the hoax at first (1st), but I thought that it would be a disservice to the readers to let it stand... Unfortunately doing so is quite stressful and I might have to quit Wikipedia altogether for some time because of the stress. It gives me flashbacks to before and I really don't want to step on anyone's toes. I should have just ignored the message and never interacted with it. I'll probably do the Nguyễn Lords one soon. But I'm not even sure if I'll be allowed to do it.
I actually haven't been able to find more fictional flags either, I often wonder why so many Vietnamese nationalists try to attribute so many fake flags. Though this is a global thing, I've seen this happen with a lot of Wikipedia articles. Hopefully more people will try to properly debunk them in the future as I can't stand misinformation. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 12:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung. A bit stressful indeed since everyone here always think they are in the right, and some have too much ego to accept an argument. If you are feeling overwhelmed, just remember that you work for Wikipedia/Wikimedia for free. You don’t get paid to do all of this and so you shouldn’t have felt stress about anything, take a break if you need, but don’t think much about it.

For the flags, well you know, a flag is also an identity for a nation and/or an ethnicity. A state/people without a flag to represent them can sometimes cause a misunderstanding like: “you are not real”, “these people were the same as these”, etc, things like that. Beside, if you look into it, these flags also play a role in political struggle among Vietnamese, especially when talking about “which flag actually represent the Vietnamese people: or ” type of things.

— Daeva Trạc (talk) 12:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I notice that discussion too, the Communist flag is definitely older than the 3 Stripe flag, there's evidence of Cochinchinese Communists using the Communist flag during the late 1930's early 1940's, while the 3 Stripe flag is based on a French Cochinchinese was invented by a French priest in 1946. Many VNCH loyalists don't like this fact so they tried re-inventing the vexillological history of Vietnam to make "their flag" seem more older and as an enduring symbol of resistance against tyrannical rule. This kind of reminds me of the fact that the flag of South Korea was invented by a Chinese politician because the Koreans didn't have a concept of a national flag and then Korean nationalists having to justify their flag by inventing older symbols that rewmble it.
Neither flag is legitimate in the context of Vietnamese history in my opinion, the division of Vietnam into 3 (three) parts was a French invention, the Nguyễn Dynasty itself used 5 (five) parts and even under the French terms like "North Annam" and "South Annam" continued to be used for regions in Trung Ky that didn't really want to be a part of the same region as Huế, Nghe-Tinh-Hoa is a good example of this. The yellow star is a five-pointed star, this type of star was invented during the American Revolution because it was easier to make five-pointed stars for flags than the traditional European six-pointed flags, as in Europe the flag of the United States of America was seen as "a left-wing revolutionary flag" many adopted this star design in revolutions and during the 20th (twentieth) century it became associated with the Soviet Union and its revolution. The Communist Vietnamese flag is obviously just a variant of the Soviet flag based on the American tradition of stars. Traditional Vietnamese (and other Sinitic) stars are round, not pointy.
The last flag of the Nguyễn Dynasty, the Lý Trigram flag was based on a Taoist / Daoist symbol, like the flag of the Korean Empire, Daoism isn't actually practiced in it's pure form in either Korea nor Vietnam, but both Korean Shamanism and Vietnamese folk religion is heavily influenced by Daoism.
Heck, I'm not even a fan of using "Cong Hoa" to mean "Republic", this term was coined by Samurai who used the Châu Dynasty / Chu Dynasty as a point of reference, the term "Dân Quốc", literally means "people's country" yet is traditionally seen as "right-wing", "reactionary", and "Conservative", despite the fact that "Cong Hoa" is literally a reference to the only actual Feudal period in Chinese history.
I often see people fling feces at each other in debates and they're all fighting over modern ideas invented in the French Revolution and its aftermath. Until the middle of the 20th (twentieth) century no Vietnamese saw any flag as a part of their identity, well, family flags and religious flags, but the modern notion of a national flag is European and until recently was only associated with the government and not the people. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:25, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, these invented flags are just another way for political fractions to argue about the “red flag” and the “yellow flag”’s legitimate status. I actually like the way that some Vietnamese communities (like in my place) use the five-color flag. More neutral and avoid risk of criticism.

But anyway, since most users don’t understand that the point of uploading these flags is to debunk them, I’m starting to think that we should just edit all of them into one place/file (like this one 1). It would be more easier to work with, and also can avoid it being used wrongly. What do you think? — Daeva Trạc (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I actually made that image because the original one included some fantasies. 😅
You're Canadian right? I notice generational differences between Vietnamese and Chinese communities. Over a decade ago I lived in New York City and whenever you would go to Chinatown or Flushing then you'd find everyone speaking Cantonese and Taiwanese flags filled the streets. I visited NYC again after I moved and I was surprised to see that Chinese people dressed and acted very differently, they now only spoke Mandarin, I saw People's Republic of China flags and portraits of Mao Zedong everywhere, I noticed the sudden uptake of "red prices" and "red princesses". In Australia 🦘 I noticed the same. With Vietnamese communities I notice that newer immigrants typically don't hang out with older immigrants unless those were from the north. I used to have a neighbour from Haiphong and she said that she only interacted with certain Vietnamese people in the Netherlands, namely those who either came from the North or newer immigrants who came during this century. My main issue with VNCH loyalists is that they still see Vietnam as "The Vietnam War", they go out of their way to make monuments for South Vietnamese soldiers and they try to preserve many military things related to South Vietnam but to them Vietnamese history seems to start in 1955, the rest is just "things leading up to 1955", the Communists have this with 1945. This is "the national project" which is founded on "a national myth".
Now I'm curious how your community works. I assume that your name is probably Sanskrit in origin? Is it a reference to Buddhism?
Anyhow, creating a list like that could be handy, but it would need to be used in the correct context, that image was made to showcase the evolution of various Vietnamese flags. Fantasy flags aren't really chronological and they're not necessarily easily to recognise unless you're familiar with them. I'd only shine as much light as I need to on them, that is to debunk them in the right context.
Vietnam isn't unique with these fictional flags, I hope that debunking them in Vietnam will create a snowball effect for other places with fake flags. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 21:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung. Not really, I’m just a Vietnamese student that study abroad.

I actually read about it (the Chinese communities stuff). From what I read, the oversea Chineses have to face racism as most think that they are more loyal to their ancestors’ original homeland than their current one. Overtime, Chineses started to praise the Communist regime even if their parents are anti-Communists (basically, because of nationalism). An interesting book. The same may have happened to the oversea Vietnamese communities, though I assume the differences are made because of the era when they migrated/took refuge (as you mentioned) and not due to racism.

For my name, the “Daeva” was just a random choice, reference to an entity that existed in a fictional universe called “SCP”. I don’t have much interest about the anomalies, but stories of the groups and political entities in that world fascinate me. The “Daevite Empire” is my favourite, so I took that name:)

It’s also convenient for non-Viet to remember my name and easier to pronounce it than “Trạc”.

Back to Wikipedia, yeah, that makes sense. But if people keep mistaken our work, then it would be harder to address them (Though it was also partially my fault). — Daeva Trạc (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm a huge SCP fan, I used to contribute to the SCP-Wiki and I loved reading and critiquing other people's entries. Yeah, the Daevite Empire is from SCP-140, also one of my favourite SCP stories. I actually have this userbox on my user page as a joke for the kinds of people that would get the joke. I remember when I was younger I pitched the idea of making a film about someone accidentally bleeding on SCP-140 and then coming out in a completely different universe where the Daevite Empire had essentially taken the place of the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Though we couldn't really get the project started. So odd to see that your username is actually a reference to someone I spent months (in vain) trying to get off the ground.
Regarding Overseas Chinese, it has to do with the media they consume, people overestimate how well they can not fall for propaganda, the reality is that you're not immune to propaganda and you will never be immune to propaganda. The CCP simply uses the notions of "racism" and the "Tring Hoa dan toc" to make people think that it's one and the same. I can see a nascent version of this among Vietnamese communities on Facebook. What's also interesting is that "modern Vietnamese" people shame descendants of refugees for speaking "bad Vietnamese" when they don't use Communist terminologies, in one case I saw a post by a Pro-Communist man essentially saying "if you can't speak good Vietnamese then don't speak Vietnamese" referring to the Overseas Vietnamese usage of Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary.
Regarding Wikipedia, the issue comes from years of people adding false flags to historical Islamic, Chinese, Native American Empires, Etc. Because European countries had flags now every country NEEDED to have them so false flags flooded the internet. Countryballs / Polandballs are partially to blame for this, but Wikipedia ended up hosting bullshit flags for years. I think that listing and debunking them is the best answer, but others believe that they should only be deleted. This is simply a difference in philosophy as we're all opponents of misinformation here, but these views are so contrasting that we often end up fighting each other more than the actual hoaxers. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 22:22, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Donald Trung. Yeah, I personally like to use the Sino-Vietnamese names (people’s & states’ names, not daily words) than the current way to Vietnamize names. For example, “Australia” in Vietnamese should be “Úc Đại Lợi” rather than “ Ốt-xtrây-li-a”.

For local words/pronounciation, the regionalism (phân biệt vùng miền) is unfortunately strong enough for people to try to remove the usage of “non-standards” Vietnamese. “Chính quyền” and “chánh quyền” (both means government) is an interesting example. — Daeva Trạc (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I notice that a lot of words are just up to the speaker, I know several people from Hanoi who essentially "talk like South Koreans", that is any word not in the Vietnamese language before 1980 gets substituted with full English words and basically all countries are called by their English names, that is Germany is "Nuoc Germany" but the language is "Tieng Duc". I also find it weird how often the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia uses English words for country names, even if Vietnamese atlases and government publications don't use them.
For Eastern Europe this is worse, "Slovakia", "Hungary", or look at basically any country in Yugo-Slavia here. These are all former Communist countries that North Vietnam had relations with yet today only English-language words are ever used. I collect old atlases bad I have them in multiple languages, what's odd is that many atlases in Vietnam today don't even use these Anglicisms, but it's just extremely commonplace. Too bad I can't upload them here because of copyright ©️ reasons.
As for regional differences, what I find interesting is that the PCG of Vietnam (1947-1949) used the Huế dialect when their capital city was Hanoi and then they switched to the Hanoi dialect when they moved to Saigon-Cholon. What I find interesting is just how Hanoian the standard language of the VNCH was, I always thought that former French Cochinchina had a disproportionate influence in South Vietnam but I was wrong and reading old books from French Cochinchina I find that a lot of Saigonese vocabulary that existed in the 19th (nineteenth) century got replaced by the Hanoian dialect.
This would make sense as Hanoi was the capital city of French Indo-China and Hanoi was seen as "the centre of Vietnamese culture" and "the centre of French culture in Asia" during this period. I'm not sure if you ever tried studying Korean, but South Korean is a completely different language from North Korean beyond the basics largely due to different political cultures, South Korean has so many English loan words that you can use almost fully English sentences excluding the most common of Korean words. Some people aged 45 and younger in Vietnam already speak like this, especially among the educated classes. This is actually a global phenomenon, as English is the global lingua franca. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 22:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

In the past, we had Sino-Vietnamese as a way to prevent being completely assimilate. Nowadays, people have “Vietlish” just for fun (mostly, but not always). — Daeva Trạc (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

“Apart, we are Broken. United, we are God.”—Church of the Broken God (SCP-verse). Seems like a great quote for the current situation among Wikipedians, don’t you think. — Daeva Trạc (talk) 22:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd rather see it like one of Dr. Wondertainment's toys, seems fun to play with but it will bite you hard. 😅😅😅 — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 22:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

That’s also true🥲 — Daeva Trạc (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)