User talk:Proabivouac

Welcome to the Commons, Proabivouac!
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SieBot 00:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpgEdit

Please do not continue to remove this image from various galleries under the rationale of being "unencyclopedic" -- Commons is a media repository (see our Project scope), not an encyclopedia. These images are correctly categorized in these galleries; please do not continue to remove them, or this will be construed as disruption which may lead to a block. --Krimpet 04:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No need for warnings, Krimpet - I come from the English Wikipedia in which such user-degraded images would be deleted. Unfortunately, Elonka has been propagating these crudely bowdlerized versions of historical artworks onto the English Wikipedia, and I noticed she's doing so here. According to Commons:Project scope#Wikimedia Commons is a common central media repository of all Wikimedia projects, "The quality of files should be as high as possible," but this image is nothing more than a user-vandalized version of |this one. What are the criteria for image retention vs. deletion, and where can I find them?Proabivouac 07:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all, derivative works such as this image are completely acceptable per Commons's scope. Commons is only a repository of images -- whether or not to include them in another Wikimedia project, such as Wikipedia, is an editorial decision left to the individual projects to decide. You can try starting a deletion discussion, but it will very likely end in the image being kept.
Now, regarding Elonka -- I do not understand what you mean by her "propagating" this image. As far as I can see, after it was uploaded by another user, she added it to a pertinent gallery. Afterwards, you removed it with the "unencyclopedic" rationale. Looking into this dispute on the English Wikipedia that you mention, I reviewed the contributions of both you and Elonka. It looks like around the same time she added it to the gallery here on Commons, she also added it to a pertinent WP article, adding it next to the original picture. Two hours later you reverted her and nominated it for deletion; after the discussion was speedy-closed the next day, you came to Commons and started removing the image from galleries here. I would like to assume good faith, but it now seems clear to me that you are trying to spread this dispute here to Commons. Please keep in mind that disruption here on Commons will not be tolerated. Commons is merely a repository of media; please leave all discussion of whether this image is appropriate on the English Wikipedia in the discussion channels there. --Krimpet 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it's Elonka who brought the earlier dispute from Talk:Kaaba onto Commons,[1] and then brought the Commons dispute back to Wikipedia here.
Are you saying I may upload and maintain anything here that I like? If there are rules involved, where may I find them? The only link you've offered thusfar states that images are to be of as high quality as possible.Proabivouac 10:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You may upload any images of potential value to Wikimedia projects. Of course it is preferred that those images are of high-quality; but when there is only a low quality picture available that is fine. If you think these images have no value file a deletion request at Commons:Deletion requests. However, if you continue to remove images correctly placed in an appropriate gallery, I would consider this disruptive editing and you would be liable to be blocked from editing Commons.--Nilfanion 19:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Nilfanion, will you please point me to where I may find the rules (supposing there are any) on what images may or may not be uploaded and maintained here. If I draw a moustache on the Mona Lisa, upload that, put it in the Da Vinci gallery, are you being disruptive if you remove it? Something doesn't sound right about this.
Can I also verify that the contributor who began this dispute pointed you my way via IRC? Or is there a conversation occurring somewhere else that I can join?Proabivouac 20:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
The rules are simple. If the image is within Commons scope it is permissible on Commons. If it is debatable that it is within project scope, seek a broader consensus; in the case of a specific image that means a deletion request. If the image is permitted on the Commons it should be appropriately located, so if you have an issue with any specific image seek deletion of it, do not just remove it from galleries. A defaced image of the Mona Lisa is more a deletion candidate than a valid piece of media, but if done skilfully might belong in Parodies of Mona Lisa or similar. How I came across this discussion is an irrelevancy, what matters is that it gets resolved.--Nilfanion 20:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not at all irrelevant: it's completely inappropriate to agitate for anyone's block on IRC without discussing it on-wiki, as it now appears that Elonka has done. Or do you disagree?Proabivouac 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If you receive a block here on Commons, it will be for your actions that are already recorded on-wiki - not because of any activity from Elonka or anyone else. My warning above is based solely on your actions, and if I feel it is necessary I will post a request on the COM:AN - where another admin will handle it.--Nilfanion 21:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for confirming that this was arranged on IRC.
I intend to nominate the image for deletion, as you've suggested, and may bring this issue to the conflict noticeboard. Back-channel agitation is not the right way to resolve disputes - a dispute Elonka herself has not made any on-wiki attempt to even address, much less resolve.Proabivouac 21:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I find it interesting that you construe my comment as saying something has been arranged on IRC. As you feel I may not be impartial, if the dispute escalates I will ensure that another administrator takes any action that may become necessary - which may not be against you. Just remember to give Elonka a heads-up when you nominate the image, and I fully expect this dispute to calm down.--Nilfanion 21:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Because you and Krimpet both state you spend a lot of time on IRC on your userpages, because Elonka also uses IRC, because there's no on-wiki paper trail anywhere that I can see, because no one has denied the IRC connection, or otherwise answered my question, because Elonka had just warned me on English WP, because the two of you kind of swooped in on me here, that's the logical conclusion.
I don't assume you not to be impartial, actually; you seem pretty reasonable, and you're talking to me like a human being. Much appreciated.Proabivouac 21:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I'm thinking, per Commons:Deletion_guidelines#Regular deletion:

  1. The file has a low image quality/resolution (e.g. out of focus, too small).
  2. The file/page is redundant through a better but not identical one.
  3. The file/page is not potentially usable by any current or future Wikimedia project (e.g. art by unknown artist)

Specifically, this image is just a user-degraded version of this one, a historical image created under the direction of a famous scholar (Rashid al-Din,) to which it is otherwise identical. It is certainly not usable on English Wikipedia, and I seriously doubt it would have any value to any Wikimedia project. Since I'm rather new here, I thought I'd ask you if this argument is likely to make sense to those who review deletion nominations.Proabivouac 21:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That should be fine just make sure you get the talk about the right image in the right location (you've got them swapped in the sentence beginning "Specifically...". I personally will avoid the deletion discussion, for the obvious reason... Just be aware unlike on Wikipedia, deletion discussions here can drag on for a month or more (due to insufficient admin activity).--Nilfanion 22:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Swapped…thanks, fixed that. Thanks for your input.Proabivouac 22:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If I had my way Category:Wikipe-tan and the majority of its contents would be deleted; I'm not a fan of images of that type. Regarding this image, I'm honestly not sure if it is appropriate or not to keep it. I will likely give my opinion, once I have one ;)--Nilfanion 09:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


Nice to see you still about :) - Alison 05:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


[2]. Tiptoety talk 02:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

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