File talk:Szent Anna templom, Bácsújlak (Saint Anne Roman Catholic Church, Bačko Novo Selo, Vojvodina, Serbia) - 20070501.jpg

Renaming problems

[Copied from "User talk:Jacklee".] Hi. I have some objections to latest name of this file that you renamed: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Szent_Anna_templom,_B%C3%A1cs%C3%BAjlak_%28Saint_Anne_Roman_Catholic_Church,_Ba%C4%8Dko_Novo_Selo,_Vojvodina,_Serbia%29_-_20070501.jpg User Beroesz proposed this file for renaming claiming that file should have Hungarian name because it comes from Hungarian Wikipedia and I think that it is not valid reason for renaming. I understand that files in Hungarian Wikipedia would have Hungarian name, but since file is moved to commons its name should be most acceptable for multilingual project, not most acceptable for Hungarian Wikipedia. Furthermore, this file show an German church in an ethnic Serb village in Serbia and due to that, Hungarian language is not most relevant language for file description. I originally proposed this file for renaming into English so that its name is understandable for everybody because it is written in an international language, but if we use multilingual name of the file then Hungarian language is not first choice here and Hungarian language is much less important than Serbian and German when this specific file is in question (there is no valid reason that an German church or an Serb village are named in Hungarian and English,but not in German or in Serbian). If file name is multilingual then it should have description in all 4 languages and exactly in this order: 1. English description, 2. Serbian description, 3. German description, 4. Hungarian description. You maybe do not know much about Central Europe (or you do?), but linguistic issues are very sensitive thing here and usage of one language or name in wrong way could be seen as insulting by speakers of other language (in this specific case, Serbs from this village or Germans whose ancestors built that church could understand that usage of Hungarian name instead Serbian or German is an ethnic insult for them). Language usage is very carefully regulated by laws here and policy that decide which language will be written first in multilingual tables is made in a way not to be insulting for any ethnic group. For example, here you can see an multilingual table in Novi Sad, capital of Vojvodina: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Novi_Sad_mayor_office.jpg there are inscriptions in 4 languages here: Serbian, Hungarian, Slovak and Rusyn. Order in which these inscriptions are written is same as size of these ethnic groups in this city (for example, it would be insult for local Hungarians if Slovak and Rusyn name would come before Hungarian one since Hungarians are more numerous than Slovaks or Rusyns in this city). In other settlements where Slovaks or Rusyns are more numerous than Hungarian order of names is different, of course. This is fair policy that tend to keep good and peaceful relations between ethnic groups in Vojvodina and violation of that policy is an dangerous behavior, even in Wikimedia Commons (I do not think that purpose of this project is to insult ethnic feelings of the people). Speaking about that, I think that proposal of User Beroesz to rename this file from English to Hungarian is made because of pure nationalistic reasons. In the 19th century Hungarians ruled over other nations of Central Europe and during that time they tried to impose their language and to suppress our languages. Position of my own ancestors who lived under Hungarian rule in that time was similar to position of Black people in South Africa during apartheid. Once they gained independence from Hungary in 1918 they had chance to develop their language and culture. However, some Hungarian nationalists, even today almost 100 years after our independence, are still trying to impose their own language and to suppress our language and the reason why they imposing their names for Serb, Romanian or Slovak settlements is their way to "remind us that we are only guests on sacred Hungarian soil and that once Greater Hungary is restored we should either become Hungarians either leave from our settlements". I see no other option but to believe that user Beroesz is follower of this nationalist policy and that he trying to impose Hungarian names because of this exact reason. On the other hand, we Serbs, are using our own names for most World cities (New York is Njujork in Serbian, Vienna is Beč, etc), but if I ever upload images of these cities it would be basic decency that I do not upload them under Serbian names, but under names that are common to people who live in these cities. I believe that Commons policy that allow file names in languages other than English is made for cases where such names are in some way related to the subject presented in the file, but not for cases where language used for file title is not only unrelated to file subject but is also insulting for people who live in the village which is subject of this file. Therefore, I would ask you to consider renaming this file to English description only or to try to find some formula in which all 4 languages (English, Serbian, German and Hungarian) would be presented in file title. 123iti (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid that Commons policy currently does not take account of the issues you have raised in the posting above. In general, filenames can be in any language because Commons is an international project: see "Commons:File renaming#What files should not be renamed?". Occasionally, files are renamed into English because a name in another language uses symbols that are causing technical problems. If you feel this policy needs to be changed, I would suggest that you make a proposal at "Commons:Village pump". I changed the filename so that it contains both the Hungarian name and the English name as a compromise. Also, I do not think it is fair for you to claim that Beroesz is a "follower of this nationalist policy and that he trying to impose Hungarian names". It may be that he is Hungarian and is simply using his native language. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 07:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not see that „What files should not be renamed?“ specifically forbid that this file is renamed (example presented there (Rathaus_bremen) is usage of German name for city in Germany and due to the fact that it is a common language of people in this city there is really no reason to favor English over German there). But, „What files should be renamed?“ section claims that „Additional naming conventions and exceptions from the above list might be discussed“, so we discussing this one due to that. There is no reason to favor Hungarian over other languages as well especially in the cases where language policy is such sensitive issue. I have nothing against that Hungarian names are used for files that showing places in Hungary or even places in Serbia where Hungarians are majority since Hungarian language is common to people there. But in this village, there 1,228 inhabitants of which only 26 are Hungarians, so why language of 26 people should be favoured over language of other 1,202. Note that this specific image was originally uploaded into Hungarian Wikipedia by user Czinitz and I agree that file name was in Hungarian because it was native language of uploader and because it was uploaded into Hungarian Wikipedia (it is logical that files uploaded into Hungarian Wikipedia are in Hungarian and I do not want to say that it is nationalism). Nationalism is later action of user Beroesz who wanted to favor Hungarian language in Wikimedia Commons, clearly not because of native language reason (he is not author of the file, remember – he just moved this file to commons), but because he want to make Hungarian an dominant language. It is common among some Hungarian users to upload images of Serb, Slovak and Romanian settlements under Hungarian names because they want to show „superiority“ of their language over other languages. Here, user Beroesz used term „noble Hungarian language“ with clear implication that other languages are not „noble“ and that they are less valid because of that (you can use google translate if you want translation of his comment in Hungarian). He is also using an nationalist name „Felvidék“ for Slovakia on his user page: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Beroesz (that name was used during fascist era in Hungary and an non-nationalist Hungarian would use name Szlovákia, but not „Felvidék“). All in all, due to my previous proposal, can we establish an more fair compromise here? (the one that will respect majority of people in that village). You say there is no reson to favor English language? Fine. Then we can remove English description from file and it could have bilingual Serb-Hungarian description, like this one: „Crkva Svete Ane, Bačko Novo Selo (Szent Anna templom, Bácsújlak)“. In that case, sensitivity of linguistic issues in this region will not be violated. 123iti (talk) 12:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Not noble Hungarian language. The exact term was "with noble simplicity". --Beroesz (talk) 18:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a dispute over what the proper name of the file should be. I am putting a copy of this discussion on the talk page of the file so that other editors can join the discussion and reach a consensus on the matter. Please add further comments there. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 14:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The rename by Adrignola (01:39, 2010 December 3) violates Commons policy and should be reverted. --  Docu  at 19:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Commons:File renaming is a guideline and I resent the implication you left on my talk page that one error out of the many moves I've made reflects poor judgement. – Adrignola talk 19:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

You might want to discuss this on your talk page. Clearly in this case the guideline was ignored. --  Docu  at 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

My views on some of the opinions that have been expressed so far:

• According to "Commons:File renaming", filenames can be in any language. If I go to China and take a photograph of the Great Wall, there is no reason why I cannot upload it to the Commons under the name "Great Wall.jpg". Another person cannot insist that a name in Chinese characters be used because the subject of the photograph is in China. Similarly, if a Hungarian person living in Serbia takes a photograph of a church, there is no reason why he or she cannot upload it using a Hungarian name.
• In view of the above, I am rather doubtful about whether the existence of "linguistic sensitivities" should be accepted as a valid reason for renaming a file. It seems to me that such a policy could have undesirable consequences. For example, do all photographs taken in Canada have to have names in both French and English? If a Arab person takes a photograph in Tel Aviv and uploads it under a name in Arabic characters, does it have to be renamed in Hebrew (or some other "neutral" language) because of "linguistic sensitivities"? I would like to hear other people's views on the matter.
• It is not acceptable to accuse other people of acting out of cultural imperialism or nationalism without evidence.
• In my view (this is not stated in the guideline), it may be acceptable to rename a file from one language to another, or to remove diacritics, if the symbols are causing technical problems at a Wikipedia project. For instance, I have dealt with some requests to remove diacritics from photographs taken in Romania because it appears that the Romanian Wikipedia is having problems dealing with filenames with diacritics.

— Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 07:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the above. Because we have no real file naming rule, the file name is to the personal opinion of the creator of the work. And we have to respect that, unless it is meaningless or misleading. So a Russian can name his pictures of Paris in Russian. If we don't respect that, we can start a battle to rename half of the files of Switzerland or Spain to handle the four official languages. --Foroa (talk) 08:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should discuss (probably at "Commons talk:File renaming", not here) having a new renaming rule, which is that a file may be renamed into a "neutral", widely used language such as English if there is a dispute between editors as to the appropriate language for a file. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

123iti's proposal

123iti has claimed that Beroesz is pursuing some sort of nationalist agenda based on words used on his user page. I decline to comment on this right now, but would point out that the original file uploaded to the Hungarian Wikipedia by Czinitz had a name in Hungarian, and Beroesz merely transferred this file without changing its name to the Commons, which he was entitled to do. I cannot take this as sufficient evidence of any sort of agenda. Also, there is nothing to prevent 123iti or another editor from uploading other photographs of the same church using file names in the Serbian language (though very similar photographs may be deleted for being redundant). However, such photographs should only be uploaded if they improve the content of the Commons, and not if the sole purpose of doing so is to use the Commons as a proxy battleground for wider disagreements.

123iti has also made a specific proposal that the file should be renamed "File:Crkva Svete Ane, Bačko Novo Selo (Szent Anna templom, Bácsújlak).jpg". On the one hand, doing so would resolve this dispute speedily since the original Hungarian name of the file is part of the new name. On the other hand, I feel that renaming the file in this way will act as an undesirable precedent and will lead to other requests for files to be renamed using some or all of the official languages of a particular country, or even what editors regard as the "appropriate languages" to be used based on the subject of a file. Therefore, I suggest that the current name of the file should stand. Thoughts? — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

In Belgium, the use of another language inside a territory is forbidden (except in international border areas where the foreign name is allowed in smaller italic font). So if you have to go from the Brussels airport to Liège, one can cross 5 to 7 times territory borders and one has to follow the directions to Liège, Luik or Luttich depending on your position. I have seen many language battles in Spain and German part of Italy, border areas (moving over history) of Slovenia, Slovakia, Serbia, Spain, Portugal, ... While often English is a way out, many places and buildings have names that don't have an English translation. In the absence of an easy rule, I would avoid that sort of wars by stating that the original name is good enough, be it random or political. --Foroa (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point about some places and buildings not having English translations. I guess my response would be that if a name in a neutral language exists, that should be used to resolve the dispute. Do you have a suggestion for resolving this case? It seems to me that reverting the file to its original name in this case is not really necessary since the Hungarian name is already part of the current file name. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 16:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

An example of a untranslatable item: Category:Ponte da Ajuda built by the Portuguese, mainly on Spanish but disputed territory. Note that names/languages change during the course of history. In this case: leave it as it is: it does not really violates the initial naming intention. --Foroa (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The general naming rule for files at Commons is to pick a language and then make sure it's correct in that language (Commons:File naming). It's the uploader who picks the language. If the original name was in a specific language and correct in that language, it's incivil to add an English version or to translate it to another language. --  Docu  at 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Point taken. I renamed the file with both the original Hungarian name and an English name as a compromise, but perhaps this was a compromise that pleased nobody. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 08:54, 9 December 2010 (UTC)