Runehelmet
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-- 15:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello.
Thanks for that information. I'm a bit surprised by it as there's no reference of that on the source maps I used which were drawn at that time, but I will take a look at this point as soon as possible. Sting (talk) 22:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Silk Road Map edit
Your map in Cities along the Silk Road isn't great quality. It's great you added to the map, but on the old one at least I could zoom in and read the city names. If you have the time maybe you could resize it. --Kendallgliss (talk) 04:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
I fixed the position of the 'Somalia' label. Cheers, Splette (talk) 10:19, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, good to hear :) Runehelmet (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
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The Dervish State edit
First, I'd like to thank you for your recent change to my work. However, I reverted your change as I backed my work on sourced information from the National Archives. I would like to stress that if borders were to be altered to discuss the matter first, as I can then still use a high-resolution map (that you didn't). So, if WE discuss to alter borders, I will need to conduct the changes to keep the detailed map. Thanks in advance, GBozanko (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC) (Geord0)
Hello,
The Ethiopian Empire never streched that far. The Sudan region was under control of Nubia and then the Ottoman Empire, wich fell under the Egyptian khevive. And other parts of Southeast South Sudan was under control of Funj, Shilluk and the Azande. Djibouti and Northwest Somalia was dominated by the Adal Sultanate. The Ethiopians never reached the coast of Somalia, the Warsangali Sultanate ruled that area. There are no sources that could suppport that the Ethiopian Empire ruled the entire northern interior of Somalia, and large parts of South Sudan. It was then until Menelik II, that the Ethiopian Empire conquered an area 3 times his size. And that was in the 19th century, and that area is now known as the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia. So could you adjust the borders of this map. Regards. Runehelmet (talk) 14:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
- This was a work based on a request of another contributor, but there seems to be an error indeed. I will fix this. Given that you seems to be knowledgeable about Ethiopia, could you tell me if this one is right? --Pethrus (talk) 16:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes that one is pretty accurate, Menelik 'created' an Empire nearly equal to the modern boders, but the eastern parts of the Ogaden were ceded to Ethiopia by Britian after the second World War, not actually conquered. Runehelmet (talk) 14:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. I have uploaded new versions with would-be correct borders. Could you check them? Thank you. --Pethrus (talk) 09:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The Eastern part looks good, but the Empire actually never reached so close to the modern Sudanese-Egyptian border in the North. The Empire controlled modern day Eritrea, the borderline between Sudan and Ethiopia and the Eastern part of South Sudan at its zenith. Actually is the current border between South Sudan and Etiopia nearly the same as it was between Ottoman Sudan and Ethiopia. The Empire did not extended far north of the Eritrean-Sudanese border, the area now known as the Red Sea state and Kassala. Apart from that, the map is looking fairly accurate, nicely done :) Runehelmet (talk) 13:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, so if I understand well, this means it was twice smaller? Would you have any data (maps ?) I could use to make those maps more accurate? Thanks.--Pethrus (talk) 15:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have a map for you, this one:File:Adal.PNG, this map is showing the situation of the Horn region in the middle ages. In this map, Aksum is refering to the Ethiopian Empire. Regards. Runehelmet (talk) 18:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for this map. However, it seems that in this case the eastern border of the map I edited is not right at all? I also found why this map was drawn with larger borders : it was based on this book. All this seems at bit confusing. Would you know any book I could base a map on, beeing sure of its historical quality?--Pethrus (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have a map for you, this one:File:Adal.PNG, this map is showing the situation of the Horn region in the middle ages. In this map, Aksum is refering to the Ethiopian Empire. Regards. Runehelmet (talk) 18:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, so if I understand well, this means it was twice smaller? Would you have any data (maps ?) I could use to make those maps more accurate? Thanks.--Pethrus (talk) 15:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The Eastern part looks good, but the Empire actually never reached so close to the modern Sudanese-Egyptian border in the North. The Empire controlled modern day Eritrea, the borderline between Sudan and Ethiopia and the Eastern part of South Sudan at its zenith. Actually is the current border between South Sudan and Etiopia nearly the same as it was between Ottoman Sudan and Ethiopia. The Empire did not extended far north of the Eritrean-Sudanese border, the area now known as the Red Sea state and Kassala. Apart from that, the map is looking fairly accurate, nicely done :) Runehelmet (talk) 13:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. I have uploaded new versions with would-be correct borders. Could you check them? Thank you. --Pethrus (talk) 09:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes that one is pretty accurate, Menelik 'created' an Empire nearly equal to the modern boders, but the eastern parts of the Ogaden were ceded to Ethiopia by Britian after the second World War, not actually conquered. Runehelmet (talk) 14:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes I have one (page 12). This map is showing the position of the Empire before Menelik's conquest, as your map is showing medieval Africa and the Empire stayed stabil throughout the middle ages, this one could be fruitfull. Runehelmet (talk) 10:44, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's a good base. However, this limits the medieval Ethiopia to a fraction of modern Ethiopia, and it seemed a part of modern Eritrea was also included? Would this map give a more accurate view of this medieval Ethiopia? --Pethrus (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes that map is very accurate, as it is showing the position of the Empire in the pre-Menelik's conquest era. Runehelmet (talk) 13:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- Great. I have edited both medieval Ethiopia maps. Thank you! --Pethrus (talk) 10:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Your welcome. The credit should go to you, so I should say: Thank you :) Runehelmet (talk) 11:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Great. I have edited both medieval Ethiopia maps. Thank you! --Pethrus (talk) 10:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes that map is very accurate, as it is showing the position of the Empire in the pre-Menelik's conquest era. Runehelmet (talk) 13:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's a good base. However, this limits the medieval Ethiopia to a fraction of modern Ethiopia, and it seemed a part of modern Eritrea was also included? Would this map give a more accurate view of this medieval Ethiopia? --Pethrus (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
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communist Somalia edit
In Somalia was a communist style political regime, but a communist economy was never introduced. Communist economy is lack of private property in the industry, banking etc. and so called collectivisation of the agriculture sector (lack of private farming). Bogomolov.PL (talk) 15:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- The economic policy of Somalia under Siad Barre:
"Somalia adopted a centrally planned economy beginning in the early 1970s, with the government taking over major industries. In 1971, Barre's government developed a three-year plan that was designed to raise the standard of living for all Somalis, employ al willing workes, and put an end to "capitalist exploitation". Some of the earliest economic changes under this development plan were the nationalization of such major businesses as banks, insurance companies, petroleum distributors, sugar refineries, and construction material factories."Link. Runehelmet (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this source is not readable for me as of Google Books limitations.
- Communist economy creation takes several decades (1917-1936) in Russia, the same in China, Vietnam etc. Not three years. And the main ecomomy sector - agriculture. Was it collectivizied? Was banking important for the peasants in Somalia? But the second largest sector (after agriculture) - trading - was it nationalized? Barre declarations were a communist system creation imitation only with a single purpose to ger an economic and military support from USSR and/or China. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, you got a source that explicitly states that he only 'imitated' the communist system to get support from the communist world? And banking was actually important, as stated in the source:"of such major businesses as banks". And the system was used for two decades (1969-1991).
- "The extreme venality and privatism that characterized the Somali state under civilian rule afforded an opportunity for collectivism in their repudiation. Not only could Siad expose and decry the extreme self-interestedness and divisiveness of his predeccesors, but also promote their opposites(...)"
- "In these years of a centralized economy some fundamental measures were undertaken, such as the transcription of the Somali language, the extenstion of free education to every somali and a health service (...) the the next step for the cooperatives was to work gradually towards the collectivization of the means of production."-The Reasons for Underdevelopment: The Case of Decolonisation in Somaliland, page 52.
- "Siad Barre announced that Somalia would follow a policy he called Scientific Socialism, an economic and political system in wich the state owns and runs large parts of the economy, such as farms and factories. Under Scientific Socialism, the Somali economy featured a mixture of private and state-owned businesses. The government owned the country's few large industries (...) as part of the state-run economy, the government resettled 140,000 nomads into farming and coastal communities. The nomads had to give up herding animals and learn new job skills."-Somalia in Pictures
Runehelmet (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly I mean: "announced that Somalia would follow a policy he called Scientific Socialism". And was main sectors (agriculture and trade) deprivatized? As no private economy is a real communizm. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 21:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is written in preterite, so it would make sense if you say he anounc'ed' it. And an announcement is revealing the plan. Somalia did follow that policy, it is written in the past tense. You are neglecting the other sources, it is obvious that Somalia maintained the Socialist system for 22 years. China has a partial private economy, has China a "false" communist regime? Runehelmet (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, again: were agriculture and trade sectors private? If so it was no communism in Somalia.
- "China has a partial private economy, has China a "false" communist regime?" - this map depicts a Cold War period, isn't it? China was a communist system country. Now China is a communist political regime but its economy is a mix of market and state owned planned economy, you see. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 22:20, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- All trade sectors were nationalized, controlled by the state. And the maps also include China, and even if it was partial that doesn't make it uncommunist. Siad barre declared that Somalia was a communist state, so it was a communist state:
- It is written in preterite, so it would make sense if you say he anounc'ed' it. And an announcement is revealing the plan. Somalia did follow that policy, it is written in the past tense. You are neglecting the other sources, it is obvious that Somalia maintained the Socialist system for 22 years. China has a partial private economy, has China a "false" communist regime? Runehelmet (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- "In October 1970 Siad Barre declared Somalia to be a socialist state. His government began a process of national unification and social and economic reforms, including nationalization"-Communism in History and Theory: Asia, Africa, and the Americas, page 122 Runehelmet (talk) 17:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- You miss commumist regime and communist system (includes a communist regime and a communist economy). Communist economy means no private property in agriculture, trade, banking, industry. Was a private property in agruculture and trade (main economic sectors)? If was - the system was not communist but the regime only. But it was a lot of communist regimes in this teriod (Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambic etc). Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:31, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Err..those sources clearly puts out that Somalia had a Communist regime and a socialist economy. Do you have any sources that contradicts it? Runehelmet (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have ani sources supporting private farming liquidation and trade nationalization? You miss declarations (plus political acts - single party political system, limited nationalization not including main sectors of economy) and real communism what means communist politic and economic system. That is why USSR and China never described Somalia (Ethiopia etc) the communist states but the states on the road to socialism only. Why? As these african countries were not the communist system states with the communist economies, but the communist regimes with limited nationalization, but with private farming and trade - main sectors of the economies. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, in the ton of sources above your comment. It would be nice if you did some background info: Somalia had between 1969 and 1991 a single party system, the Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party(google that). And even if Somalia didn't had a communist economic system, does that make it not a socialist state? I never read that before. Here is the description of a Communist state:A Communist state, in popular usage, is a state with a form of government characterized by single-party rule or dominant-party rule by a communist party or socialist party and a professed allegiance to a Leninist or Marxist–Leninist ideology as the guiding principle of the state. Theoretically, "communist state" is a contradictio in terminis as a communist society as defined by both Marxists and anarcho-communists is in principle stateless and would not be bound by a single country. Somalia has all the criterions to be a communist state(between 1996-91 ofcourse). Is it your own theory? Or do you just dont want Somalia and perhaps other African countries to be included? Runehelmet (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Again: in Africa, Asia, Latin America were many countries with communist/socialist regimes, but there was not the communist economies with no private farming and trade. Somalia was not a first and was not a last.
- Somalia, Ethiopia, Angola, Mosambic etc were the communist regimes, but these countries were not the communist system countries as private property in farming and trade were not liquidated. These countries had a different sort of regime: communist political system, several sectors nationalized (mining, banking etc.), but the major part of their economy were the traditional private farming and private trade. But really communist countries had the different sort of economy: industry, banking, trade, farming were not private. That is why was a limited number of this kind of really communist countries - from Vietnam to GDR plus Cuba. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 22:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Somalia did not had a free market economy but a planned nationalized system. The banking, industry, trade were nationalized and the agriculture sector was collectivized, so what is the issue now? And I ask you to give a source to support your statement about the Regime-System relation, if not, I'm freely to reupload the image included with the Democratic Republic of Somalia, as you obturate me without citations. Runehelmet (talk) 12:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- "trade were nationalized and the agriculture sector was collectivized" - you've claimed but was it in reality? No, it wasn't. Do you have reliable sources supporting your opinion? No. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- You reverted to the erroneous version with the comment "Somalia had a State owned system:Peter B. Evans, Harold Karan Jacobson, Robert D. Putnam: Double-Edged Diplomacy: International Bargaining and Domestic Politics, page 360-375", but yiour declaration is not correct. I will cite the source you provided
- Somalia did not had a free market economy but a planned nationalized system. The banking, industry, trade were nationalized and the agriculture sector was collectivized, so what is the issue now? And I ask you to give a source to support your statement about the Regime-System relation, if not, I'm freely to reupload the image included with the Democratic Republic of Somalia, as you obturate me without citations. Runehelmet (talk) 12:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- Err..those sources clearly puts out that Somalia had a Communist regime and a socialist economy. Do you have any sources that contradicts it? Runehelmet (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Following the military coup that broght General Muhammad Siyaad Barre to power in 1969, the political economy was set on a course of "scientific socialism": state control was extended to segments of the urban economy, such as banks and insurance companies, but the key sector of livestoc remained private... by the early 1980s livestok exports represented over 70 percent of total export earnings. Manufacturing was a relatively minor segment of the economy, even by African standards, representing only 6 percent of the gross domestic product in the early 1980s. Most manufacturing was carried out by state-owned enterprises that were generally regarded as inefficient
- Source you provided strongely supports Somalia never had a communist economy. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Not sure why South Yemen is not also included... AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- Somalia, South Yemen, Ethiopia, Angola etc were not included as these countries had not a communist economy. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- I stated above, even if it hadn't a communist economy, that doesn't change the fact that it was a communist state. The map is about communist regimes, not the economic systems. The title says:Second world extendend, Second world refers to states that were part of the Soviet bloc, in contrary to the first world. Runehelmet (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- The Second World was not a Soviet Block as Albania, Yugoslavia, China, North Korea were not Soviet satellites. The Second World was a part of the World with the communist system states (communist economy and communist regimes). That is why Somalia, Ethiopia, Angola etc. were (and are) the Third World countries. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
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