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Commons talk:Valued image candidates/candidate list

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VIs of age-dependent imagesEdit

@Olivier LPB: @Ikan Kekek: @Archaeodontosaurus: @Smihael: @Palauenc05: @Berthold Werner: @Moheen Reeyad: @Jacek Halicki: @Famberhorst: @PIERRE ANDRE LECLERCQ: @Lucasbosch: @Llez: @Jebulon: @Moroder: @DeFacto: @Halavar: @JLPC: @Lucas.Belo: @Yann: @FredD: @Palauenc05: @Carschten: @Masum-al-hasan: @Slaunger: @Martin Falbisoner: @Smihael:

How should we define scopes of age-related images? Animals are quite simple. Adult is the default and is not mentioned - we have immature, juvenile, baby and I had one Equus quagga burchellii (Burchell's zebra) male, one day old. But what about things that decay - especially people. There are a lot of VIs being promoted of people. In many cases these local politicians who are 'notable' only for a short time, but what about Winston Churchill, Mick Jagger, Shirley Temple or HM The Queen? There could hundreds for each. Don't we need some better guidelines: both on who is 'entitled' to a VI and how many each should have? Charles (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I don't think there should be more than 2 or 3 VI for any single person. Usually one for young age, one for mature age, 3 different periods in special cases. Regards, Yann (talk) 18:25, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I think Yann's got it. But no hard and fast rule, because in some cases, it could be valuable to show actors playing a dozen roles or more in different costumes and makeup (but that's not quite the same as age-defined differences in scope). I don't know, I think no standardization is necessary. What I would propose is simply that each scope defined by age be recognizably different from the others. I think juvenile monkeys are quite recognizably different from infant monkeys, but I don't think that we should normally have a different scope for a 12-month-old human baby and a 13-month-old human baby. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
per above --Martin Falbisoner (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
If the scopes of different ages are 'visually distinct' they are acceptable. Visually distinct is somewhat fuzzy I know, but I think it is quite line with the statements of Yann and Ikan Kekek above. -- Slaunger (talk) 11:41, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't think there should be a numerical limit, but that the criterion should be that they are visually distinct. So a bearded/unbearded portrait or various ages or various states of decay, or whatever - just so long as there is a potential use and an agreed (per the vote) visual difference. DeFacto (talk). 12:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

No one is commenting on the question of notability. Charles (talk) 10:30, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I believe that each image should bring its peculiarities that differentiate it from the others, and the age can be a differential in an image. But standardizing the number of images already awarded can be harmful if a new image has many attributes. Good judgment in this case should be considered, avoiding the loss of an image of value and the exaggeration in the number of winning images of the same person with the same hetary range. I believe that this posture is relevant to the notoriety of images with value and good scopes. -- Lucas.Belo (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Still no one is commenting on the question of notability. Charles (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

When the person is notable enough to have (or could have) a Wikipedia article, then a (good) portrait of this person is be valuable for Commons as it can be used in the accompanying article given that other VI criteria are met. The picture does not necessarily have to portray the person as we might remember him/her – often it is the case, that pictures of famous persons in their youth are also interesting. --Miha (talk) 22:58, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Determining scope on multiple images of individual personsEdit

After the failed nom on one image of Donald Tusk and on images of Neil Patrick Harris, maybe I need help on determining an appropriate scope on bio pictures before re-nominating them. If helping on individual nominations is ineffective, how do we handle images that belong in similar categories? --George Ho (talk) 03:16, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, In the case of Neil Patrick Harris, I think it is very silly to move all images into subcategories. It makes choosing an image for an article (and for VI) very difficult. In the case of Donald Tusk, the best solution is to create a category Category:Portraits of Donald Tusk, and copy all portraits there. Then a candidate can be chosen among them. See an example of a VI for a person with many potential candidates. Regards, Yann (talk) 09:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Created Category:Portrait photographs of Donald Tusk. I'll re-nominate this soon. Thanks for the advice. --George Ho (talk) 17:43, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Withholding a vote of a photo you believe should be a VIEdit

Can everyone please respect the consensus that currently being used outside of Commons is not a criterion for whether a photo should be promoted to Valued Image? If you think a photo is of adequate quality, well categorized and best in scope, withholding your vote is improper. Can we all please stop doing that? This kind of behavior corrodes the project and the site. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

And so as not to have an oblique and theoretical discussion, have a look at User talk:Ikan Kekek#Please explain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:19, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more. I've always felt that adding rules that don't exist merely results in exactly what Ikan Kekek just said. This is true in VI, Commons, any other wiki project, our real life paying jobs, real life organizations we belong to, etc. I would also like to say that I truly appreciate all the people who've been helping me learn the ins and outs of VI; they know who they are as I've thanked them before. But on this one issue we should be more "in the same boat". PumpkinSky talk 22:56, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
We must have the right to vote in compliance with the rules we have all agreed to. Voting should not be mandatory, we are not robots who record appointments. I maintain that I do not wish to vote for unused images, has a personal choice that only conspects me. I have also chosen not to intervene on subjects that I do not know. --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 05:20, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree completely with Archaeodontosaurus. I also try not to get involved with images of subjects I have no expertise in, which includes those of plants and insects. As individuals too, we all have our own personal preferences and dislikes, and points of view as to what "the most valuable illustration" must be, or must not be. There is no rule broken in deciding, based on personal criteria, not to support an image nomination, or even in deciding to oppose one. DeFacto (talk). 06:24, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
You guys are intent on enforcing through the back door a proposed rule that was shot down by consensus? This isn't about likes or dislikes in terms of the picture itself. This is a case in which you believe the picture is best in scope and deserves to be a VI, but you refuse to vote for it for extraneous reasons that are specifically excluded by consensus as criteria. It's specifically and pointedly an attempt to sabotage the Wiki guideline of respecting and operating in good faith as part of a consensus, even if you disagree with it. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Ikan is spot on here. PumpkinSky talk 09:10, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: no, I do not support usage being a mandated VI requirement, and was happy that rule proposal was rejected. However, what I do support is the right of an editor to decide for themselves whether they consider an image to be "the most valuable illustration" within the given scope - which is a very subjective decision anyway - and whether they will support it. And it is quite reasonable to expect a rationale for an 'oppose' vote, but I'm not sure we should be demanding a justification for not giving a 'support' vote. DeFacto (talk). 09:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying that. It's not likely to be possible to force anyone to vote for a photo they believe deserves to be a VI, but do you really disagree that good faith demands that people take it upon themselves to do so? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:24, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
They are free to do so if they want, as I am free to vote or not. --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 10:42, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but with all due respect to all of the really helpful things you do, you are acting in bad faith in these kinds of situations, and it is unhelpful to the project and to sustaining the Wiki spirit of moving forward by consensus. In effect, you are being passive-aggressive. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
We agree that we must rely on consensus. I do not think that imposing a vote, mandatory and positive, is a consensual idea.--Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 12:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that anyone be forced to vote. I'm suggesting that by withholding your vote for a photo you believe should be a VI, you are operating in bad faith, and that anyone who thinks a photo should be a VI, as a matter of integrity and Wiki spirit, needs to take it upon themselves to vote for that photo without extraneous reservations based on a proposed new policy that was shot down. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Suggestion that comes from Surrealism. --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 05:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Do you truly not understand my point? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:24, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
This suggestion is a very interesting intellectual construction that can make us discuss for hours, I am very admiring the surreal movement, but there is no psosibility that there can be an action in reality. You can not get into people's minds and their vote remains free. --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 05:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, people remain free to act in what I consider bad faith, according to their conscience. I don't understand why you're focusing on that, rather than the substance of what I brought up at the very beginning of this thread, which is not "people should be made by force to vote for x, y and z" but "If you think a photo is of adequate quality, well categorized and best in scope, withholding your vote is improper." The onus falls on every individual to act within the spirit as well as the letter of the consensus and not deliberately undermine it by behaving as if your losing position is an additional unwritten rule. I think it's quite unfortunate that no-one else but PumpkinSky agrees with me. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
  • My position has a meaning, that is the point that you did not address. I try to encourage photographers to get involved in the content of the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia is the purpose of our work. The vast majority of images we have in COMMONS is useless, hence the label; But it is not the label that will make "live" the image is its use that will do it. If you believe in the usefulness of your images, then submit to the reality of placement of the image in the encyclopedias. If it "survives": it has an effective utility. It is better an actual and proven reality than a reality that is supposed. --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 06:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
  • First, no, Wikipedia is not the only reason for the VI designation. Creative Commons images can be used on any website with attribution. Second, requiring an image to be put into a Wikipedia article before it's determined to be best in scope puts the cart before the horse. The whole point, in my mind, is to determine which is best, whereupon it would make sense for a thumbnail of it to be used in appropriate articles. But third, there is a huge difference between encouraging people to insert thumbnails into articles and making that insertion a prerequisite for VI status, which is the very thing that was roundly voted down when proposed on this very page. By all means, encourage. That's fine, but it's missing the point of this discussion. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
It's obvious nothing has changed at VI and likely won't. Very sad. PumpkinSky talk 10:04, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
I've only just come across this discussion. I generally only vote on images that interest me and when I can be bothered to check out all the images in the category gallery. I will sometimes help establish rules for other subjects (such as motor cars). I will not generally vote for photos of people (see previous discussions). Nothing would compel me to vote if I don't want to. Charles (talk) 10:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Commons:Valued image candidates/Mother Theresa 18.jpgEdit

Hi, This is not an image of Mother Theresa, see [1]. Is it OK to remove the VI tag? @Archaeodontosaurus, Moheen Reeyad, Dencey, Jacek Halicki: Regards, Yann (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Ok for me --Archaeodontosaurus (talk) 10:23, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • OK for me too. ~ Moheen (keep talking) 11:03, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • OK for me. BTW, a note should be added to this effect on the original file. Martinvl (talk) 13:50, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Martinvl: What kind of note? Regards, Yann (talk) 14:11, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
      • @Yann: A summary of the information (or at any rate a link to) the citation at the start of this section. Martinvl (talk) 14:28, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
        • We shouldn't mention Mother Theresa in the description, as it would make the file appears in searches, but I gave the link in the edit summary (see history). Regards, Yann (talk) 15:45, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
          • I agree. I have however changed the VI file status to "declined" and added a note linking to this discussion. Martinvl (talk) 19:34, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
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