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Rename to template:TinctureEdit

I would like to propose to rename the template to template:Tincture and move {{FIAV2}} to template:Tincture/draw1 and {{FIAV3}} to template:Tincture/box. Any objections or ideas for better names? I would also like to allow optional inputs in "a/b/c/d" format in addition to "a|b|c|d". "a/b/c/d" is treated by templates as a single parameter while "a|b|c|d" are 4 parameters. That is what we use in "nationality" field of Template:Creator. --Jarekt (talk) 13:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

FIAV exists, found by trial and error, I certainly didn't know it. If you're confident that the experts won't kill you, have fun with the renaming.
Adding code to parse slashes only because some unrelated template does this sounds like a violation of KISS, BROKE, and CREEP. At the moment FIAV123 apparently get away without the String module. –Be..anyone (talk) 01:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I added template:Tincture which is identical to {{FIAV1}} except for "a|b|c|d" -> "a/b/c/d". My issue with {{FIAV1}} is that the name does not have a clear connection to what the template does. As for "|" and "/" difference, the change will make users mess likely to get unexplainable behavior due to issues in different part of the template, for example try to find why wiki code in User:Jarekt/a shows only 1 color instead of 3 (Hint extra character in the first line). Neither version is using LUA. --Jarekt (talk) 03:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I merged template:Tincture and {{FIAV1}} as so the color codes can be separated by either "|" or "/". --Jarekt (talk) 03:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
No screaming mob trying to drown you in the Village Pump, so either this was a good idea or folks were busy with renaming Pussy-horses. –Be..anyone (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
8 days too late for the question, does the file namespace actually have subpages? I vaguely recall some French wrestling event (in a QIC or FPC) with a photographer using a camera donated to the local Wikimedia chapter, and the camera name contained some slashes confusing various templates. –Be..anyone (talk) 16:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
File namespace officially does not support subpages, however there are plenty of them. But that does not make any difference since the values separated by "/" are color names and codes and they do not have "/". --Jarekt (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

If somebody had asked me: I do not find it such a good idea to force FIAV1 into the logic of Tincture. I had always been told to avoid expensive string operations, so I made the efforts and established the template with |-stroke separators. When you think that you need a /-version I agree but it seems not a stringent consequence to overwrite FIAV1 whose name was created after long discussions. Rather I had preferred the possibility to transclude FIAV1 from the new Tincture.
The names (FIAV2, FIAV3) had not been such a good choice, I agree that names with xxxx/yy are better fitting into the subtemplate naming conventions.

Nevertheless it was a very good idea to replace the confusing old COAInformation by a leaner template. sarang사랑 08:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I did not specifically ping you, but I assumed that anybody interested in this template would be watching it. We can keep both {{FIAV1}} and {{Tincture}} - the only price is added confusion to people trying to use it since there is very little difference between them. In the days before LUA, string operations were in general expensive. String length template was implemented as Is it 500 characters long? No then is it 499? All the way to 1. But after LUA string functions are fine. Moreover I am not even using any LUA in this case as parser could always split string into "/" separated substrings. It is not an expensive operation. If you look on files with and without calls to {{Tincture}} and click on page source and find "NewPP limit report" comment section there is field there with "Expensive parser function count" for each page. That count does not change for pages with and without calls to {{Tincture}}. If we keep only one template then we need to decide on name, like "FIAV1" or "Tincture". I do not like FIAV: the acronym does not mean anything to me and when I look it up, it is some organization studying flags, which still do not tell me anything about what does the template do. But although I often follow Be Bold philosophy I also try to do things by consensus. I was trying to start a discussion about the name above. If we can get more opinions I volunteer to change name myself if majority prefers a different one. --Jarekt (talk) 13:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


Please don't add categories to/with this template, this is absolutely uncommon practice. For example even creator templates create no creator cat. Another point The templates uses FIAV colors which are mainly for flags (so the rename was a fault IMHO): Example File:Flag of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.svg Or we must create a secondary template for flags, which I would not prefer.User: Perhelion 22:15, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

  • AFAIK it is a very common practice to categorize with templates. Depending this case, automatic categorization ensures the accordance of colors and category, while manual categorization will enable every incongruity... So I assume it a good idea, contrary to Perhelion.
  • It is easy to suppress categorization (since October 2015‎). It is now used with the example above.
  • Flags or CoAs? There will be an easy way to solve this problem - automatically, of course - by using the subcategory (flag, coa or others), all within the current template not needing a second one.
Currently nearly no flags use the template; they tend more to the color description with {{Tbc}}. For arms the name "tincture" is fine, whether the colors correspond to FIAV or not. Because of the agreement to restrict arms to FIAV colors wherever possible, the template is also restricted to these (and the Bavarian) colors; more color schemes can easily be added if needed. sarang사랑 09:05, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Category namesEdit

A long time ago when I had been asked to write FIAV1 I was told that the preferable sequence to define colors is silver-gold and then the other codes in alphabetical order, i.e. a|A|o|b|B|c|C|g|p|s|t|v. As a matter of fact, currently some tincture categories follow this rule, most don't and their sequence sorts "Or" alphabetically between g and p.

I am completely unsure whether the tincture categories are helpful, or not so much. Due to mathematics with 12 colors are 3974 combinations possible; because some combinations as a|A, b|B or c|C are unlikely not all categories are used, and if more than six colors come together as "multi-colored heraldic shields" we need less categories - but IMHO still much more than useful! If the community decides to keep the Color combinations of heraldic shields there are two possibilities: either we let the category names as they are now and let the workaround of the automatic categorization as it is; or we move the categories to the names corresponding to the mentioned rule and don't need any more the workaround template.

There are a lot of files using color combinations without a category defined; for some rare combinations only one file corresponds to a category. Such almost empty categories will not be very helpful. Soon I will collect my arguments and start a CfD. sarang사랑 17:28, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Plain tincture categoriesEdit

@Sarang: Kannst du bitte das Subtemplate /cat2 anpassen? Im Gegensatz zu Kategorien mit zwei oder mehr Tinkturen sind die Kategorien für einfach gefärbte Schilde nach dem Schema Category:Azure (heraldry) aufgebaut, und nicht wie Category:Azure in heraldry. Die Category:Sable in heraldry gibt es zwar, aber die ist für das Tier gleichen Namens (Zobel). Solche einfarbigen Wappenschilde sind zwar eher selten, aber File:5sfg.svg macht z. B. Probleme. De728631 (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

@De728631: Bei den Tinkturcategorien gibt es leider ein ziemliches Durcheinander und Gegeneinander, historisch gewachsen. Ich habe mich immer gehütet da was anzufassen... Stattdessen habe ich workarounds (wie /cat1, siehe oberhalb) erstellt um damit zurechtzukommen.
Die Kategorie Azure in heraldry bzw. den redirect habe ich nun per move erzeugt; den move der anderen unicolor-Kategorien kannst du doch gerne selbst machen? Sonst muss ich halt noch ein paar mal ran. -- sarang사랑 11:10, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Bitte, bitte, Kategorien NIEMALS mit "move" verschieben! Das ist genau der falsche Weg, weil nämlich der Inhalt nicht mitgenommen wird. Wenn man Kategorien umbennnen will, muss man die neue Seite erzeugen, und dann die entsprechenden Dateien neu kategorisieren. Jetzt liegen haufenweise Dateien und Unterkategorien sozusagen auf einem Redirect und sind nicht richtig eingeordnet. De728631 (talk) 19:15, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Carnation colorEdit

Hi everybody

I tagged one of my blazons with the parameters: a/c/o/s (argent, carnation, or, sable). But the corresponding category wasn't exist and the image is tagged with "Undefined color combinations of heraldic shields".

So, I created the suitable category but the template is not able to link my configuration to the new category.

Any idea about the problem? Anyone can help me to improve the categorization process of this template?

Many thanks for your help.

Jpgibert (talk) 09:15, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

  Done This specific combination was missing in the template subpage Template:Tincture/cat1. I added it there and also redirected your new category to a name that matches the default sorting of the tinctures. De728631 (talk) 10:39, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your help De728631. Jpgibert (talk) 11:17, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Or in HeraldryEdit

Hi everybody,

I vectorized a PNG blazon into SVG format and I wanted tag it as Or only because charges are in natural representation.

The tincture template works fine but the autogenerated category Or in heraldry is deprecated and replaced by Or (heraldry). Is it possible to use the suitable new category instead of the old one?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Jpgibert (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

{{Tincture/cat2}} uses standard names, which are quite difficult to be changed. I don’t see, however, any evidence that it’s really deprecated, and not just happened to be created using other name. –Tacsipacsi (talk) 13:36, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Order of tinctures?Edit

(moved from User talk:Sarang#Order of tinctures?)

Hi. You're in the edit history of {{Tincture}}, so I assume you know how the tincture categories are supposed to work. :)

There's a category "Azure and argent in heraldry" and a category "Argent and azure in heraldry". I can't see a reason for both of them to exist. The category "Argent, azure, gules, Or, sable, vert in heraldry" implies that the tinctures are supposed to be in alphabetical order, so "Azure and argent in heraldry" should be turned into a redirect to "Argent and azure in heraldry". Right? Am I missing something? TilmannR (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

I opened a CfD. -- User: Perhelion 00:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Perhelion, TilmannR: Unfortunately it is more complicated. I often mentioned that there is a need to clearify these questions. Years ago I had been told that the order (how the tincts are specified) should always be: argent, Or and then all the others in alphabetical order (a/A/O/b/B/c/..). But the categories follow partly another system, where also argent and Or are alphabetically sorted... So in the case you questioned only "Argent and azure" are within the system, and the definition should also be "a/b", and the contents of Azure and argent in heraldry should be transferred.
There are also other voices telling that we don't need any of these categories.
For the automatic categorization I made a tool which can categorize correct specified tincts into the currently existing categories, whether their names follow the one or the other system. The automatic cat can easily be changed if a consent wishes other category names, or even switched off if a consent wishes no cat — where categorisation occurs without template, more work is needed. At the moment the cat template is invokeded when the template FIAVTincture is used, directly or via Igen. -- sarang사랑 12:23, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Perhelion, Sarang: Regarding "we don't need any of these categories": Argent and azure in heraldry is useful as a super-category for things like Argent a bend azure. I guess instead of removing Azure and argent in heraldry, it could become the super-category of all Azure a ... argent categories. I don't know. Or are people arguing that we shouldn't categorize coats of arms by blazon at all (i.e. they also want to delete Argent a bend azure)? TilmannR (talk) 14:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Other fieldsEdit

It should be possible that (with an additional parameter, e.g. "+") a field name can be generated; likewise it is done by Igen, Taken with, Tbc.
But the module version of Tincture does not support this generation, it influences text around (before and after) the generated color boxes.

It is possible with an intermediate attempt new template Tincture/f as used e.g. in MildmayArms.png;
it is also possible with a construction like |other fields={{InFi|{{ucfirst:{{I18n/COA|tincture}}}}|{{Tincture|a/b}}}} as used e.g. in Albernaz coat.jpg;
but every attempt fails, to use e.g. |other fields={{Tincture|a/o/b/s/t|+=+}}: the parameter +=+ does not disturb, and the field name is generated - but the module version destroys it somehow afterwards.
@Tacsipacsi: would you mind to change the module that it does not make that expansion impossible? -- sarang사랑 09:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

@Sarang: The module didn’t destroy it—it was simply not there. If a template has <onlyinclude> tags in it, only text within the tags is included (this is why the documentation isn’t included where this template is used). I reverted your change, however, and moved the whole logic into the module, as putting some logic at one place and some other at another one makes the template way too complicated to be easily understood. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
@Tacsipacsi: Köszönöm szépen! Unfortunately I am too stupid to expand the LUA code, I can do it only with the wiki template logic; so I tried it outside of your module - without success. Of course it is much better to have such expansions integrated at the central place. I am glad that it is now working fine and it can be used.
My first intention had been to trigger it with a simple positional parameter "+" (like the "-" is used for 'nocat'); but it is checked and the error of an unknown color code is recogniced. The named parameter "+=+" does not make this problem, so I used that. Best may be to allow "+" as well as "+=+"; because the simple "+" fits a bit better to the logic: «Tincture|a/b/-/v», «Tincture|a/b/g/+» or «Tincture|+|a|g|s» will then be valid transclusions. The template Taken with serves many parameters, therefore I took "+=+" for the field name, as well as only "+"; it would not be bad if Tincture will accept both parametrizing versions? Can't be too difficult -- sarang사랑 07:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
@Tacsipacsi: Might this do it?
		for i, v in ipairs(args) do
			colors[i] = v
			if v == '+' then
				InFi = 1 
(at both occurrencies) -- sarang사랑 09:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
@Sarang: I chose to entirely process “-” and “+” parameters in the module. It makes module code a bit more complex, but allows to remove special casing from subtemplates. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 15:06, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Now it seems to be wonderful - everything solved perfectly and no need any more for other templates to handle this remnants. This is coding as I like it. Thank you! -- sarang사랑 16:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Orange in heraldryEdit

Hi everybody,

I used template:COAInformation on coat of arms having orange field. But the tincture template used through the COAInformation template is not able to manage orange color.

Is it possible to add it to the list?

A category is available here: category:Orange (heraldry).

Thanks a lot for your help. Jpgibert (talk) 21:29, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Technically this should be possible. The FIAV colour would be #EB7711 and we could use "n" as a colour code in the template. However, past discussions have shown some opposition to including very rare tinctures (aka non-traditional ones) in this template. De728631 (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Return to "Tincture" page.