Talk:BSicon/Renaming/k

New icons (experimental)

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 1

old 1st proposal 2nd proposal 3rd proposal

I created 3 new icons for an alternative to this ugly (but often used) track at the left. N.B.: No modifications of ABZlg are necessary, 0077 just replaces STRrg.
What do you think of the idea, and will you please help me find the correct title for BSicon_0076, 77 and 78.svg ? - Erik Baas (talk) 00:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

How about using the already exiting icons kABZ##? We just need the corner to overlay! axp_de^Hello! 08:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Using overlayed icons does not work in IE6 because it can't handle the transparency, and IE7 sometimes positions the icons all wrong. And creating more icons like rfKRZ is not a very good idea either, because we would need hundreds of them: all posssible combinations of crossings, junctions and bridges, with one, two, three, or four corners filled, in all combinations of light red, dark red, light blue, dark blue...

That is why I thought of this new system: icon 0077 is outside of the crossing or junction, so we only have to create 4 icons of this one and 8 icons like 0076 in each of the 4 colors.

P.S.: Your proposal #2 does look better, but the old one is plain ugly.  ;-) - Erik Baas (talk) 14:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I know about your objections, in/off use, normal/tunnel/elevated, that's a factor six for each individual path ... #shiver#

The problems with IE don't bother me, with Mozilla and Opera there are at least two free powerful browsers available. I don't use this M$-crap and anyone who does ... well it's his problem.

The least common denominator would be proposal 3, because following your proposal, we get a 4th set of branching symbols:  (ABZgr) (kABZg3) (ÜWgor) (0076) Won't reduce the work to do ... axp_de^Hello! 17:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

But #3 is no solution to the problem, it depicts a totally different situation; like I said, #1 is used quite often, and I suppose that's for a good reason.

You're right about the M$-crap of course, but we can't just ignore users of IE6 (18.5%) and IE7 (25.7%) (see [1]). :-(

I know there is some extra work involved, but a large number of railway templates will look so much better. And all you have to do is come up with the right titles... ;-) - Erik Baas (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

This morning I woke up and had an idea (maybe sometimes it helps to be "forced" somehow). When reading this old topic again, I calculated there are 972 combinations of flat level or bridged crossing icons if having up to four corners in two different colors, that's definetly absurd!

I don't know the reason for selecting 'k'-prefix von  (kABZg3), maybe derived from German "Kurve" (curve), but hence this is a secant to the crossing symbol and  (ÜWgor) would be at least a tangent to it, your solution is passing the middle field → my suggested prefix is 'p'! Of course this idea is "on a gut level", don't know whether has/could have another sensible meaning, but at least it's a discussion basis!

•  (0076) would be "pABZgr" (universal naming scheme, traditionally: pABZrf),
•  (0077) would be "pSTRc2" (corner of the 2nd quadrant) and
•  (0078) would be "pABZqr" (quer & nach rechts).

Happy Easter days! axp_de^Hello! 06:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

All 'k' junction icons above have been changed to the new consistent names. Wiebevl (talk) 22:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

KRZu

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 1

Hi Axpde,

Following your naming convention I made a dash at the category 'crossing' and replaced all the current xxxxKRZu icons with new ones with smaller code and new names. However it's still a bunch, therefore I created a new category 'crossing under' and relocated everything including KRZu. Is that not according to your ideas? Wiebevl (talk) 19:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I messed up I noticed, so sorry... Wiebevl (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I already started some sorting but haven't had the time to finish, would have made things easier to understand. The basic idea is to have a category for all icons we need for those elegant combinations of junction and crossing. Your new set of icons is very well coded, just the name needs a little correction. I don't know you introduced the 'k' to indicate the branching icons as File:BSicon kABZlf.svg (File:BSicon kABZlf.svg), but since the 'k' is already in use I thought this char would do well for the corresponding crossings as well! Plus the directions should be a suffix ... Groetjes! axp_de^Hello! 19:26, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Allright, I get it. Now all these obsolete ones have to be replaced by new ones. How do you find out in which languages they are used? Seems like a hell of a job... Wiebevl (talk) 22:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Just hit the "check usage" tab above the picture and you'll get the toolserver response of worldwide usage. And beleive me, it is a hell of a job. I replaced hundreds of BSicons and made thousands of edits in dozens of different projects. I've already edited pages I was unable to read a single sign ... aside BSicons of course ;-) axp_de^Hello! 16:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll get onto it. I changed a Japanese wiki yesterday, it's indeed kinda hard ;-) Wiebevl (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

What about the branching icons in this category? File:BSicon kABZlf.svg (File:BSicon kABZlf.svg) should be named kABZl I presume? And File:BSicon kABZ3lg.svg (File:BSicon kABZ3lg.svg) should be renamed kABZq+r? Wiebevl (talk) 08:08, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Well that would be the logical way, should be (k)ABZgl (don't forget the "g" for straight), but (k)ABZlf is used so many times, I don't like to think about changing it :(

On the other hand (k)ABZ3lf isn't used that often and I don't like the "3" at all, if me time allows, I'll change those to (k)ABZql, so your proposal is fine for me!

Thanks alot for your kind support, maybe someday we'll have a consistently named heap of BSicons :) Cheers axp_de^Hello! 16:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

We'll have to start somewhere, but indeed ABZlf is used on basically every page, nevertheless ABZgl should be used on all new pages. How much time does the renaming take for the ones I misnamed? Wiebevl (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I noticed you changed the category back to 'obsolete' for all I placed in 'delete candidate'. A, I missing something? Wiebevl (talk) 16:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I usually put only those icons in this category with deletion requests pending (speedy or regular delete). Speedy deletes usually only work fine, if there is a replacement icon mentioned. Just changing to "delete candidate" isn't sufficient, no admin will care for it ... :( axp_de^Hello! 16:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for asking, but how do I get those redundant ones deleted? Wiebevl (talk) 20:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

junction icons in 'junction+crossing' category

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 1

So now all the crossings are replaced and in the process of being renamed where necessary I'd like to make a dash at the junction icons, some have horrendous code.

Two options:

1. I can create new ones with correct names and move the old ones to the 'obsolete' category.

2. I replace the current ones with new versions using valid code and ask for them to be renamed.

What do you think? Wiebevl (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I usually choose door number 1 ... this way I can replace all occurances without haste ... Ok, some people hesitate about vanishing history, but to be honest, most of those icons are retouched versions using inkscape or alike. They're usually several times larger than our "hand made" icons and not really worth comparing them ... Groetjes :) axp_de^Hello! 13:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Allright then a final question: is this icon (ekABZlf) kABZgxl or ekABZgl? Similar: (exkABZlf), either exkABZgl or xkABZgxl? Just wondering since you call (File:BSicon_ABZgxl+r.svg), without the 'e' prefix and (File:BSicon_eABZgl+r.svg) with additional 'e' prefix whereas this last one could be as well called ABZgxl+xr. Wiebevl (talk) 14:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

icons changed. Wiebevl (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, question-gattling :)

• File:BSicon ekABZgl.svg should be "BSicon ekABZgl.svg" (for straight and left, an additional 'x' isn't needed with just two different pieces).
• File:BSicon exkABZgl.svg should be "BSicon exkABZgl.svg" (same reason).

There's no real discrepancy between File:BSicon ABZgxl+r.svg and File:BSicon eABZgl+r.svg, whenever I can get along with just 'e' or 'x' prefixes I'll go for it. The single 'e' stands for "track in use, feature off use" and this is exactly what the icon shows. This system reaches its limit as soon as we have different features combined as in File:BSicon kKRZor.svg, then the prefixes are just good for the "main feature" (KRZ), all additional features have to be dealt with another way ... axp_de^Hello! 09:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

And another thing (xkABZdlf) is xkABZglxr or not? Wiebevl (talk) 14:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, sounds well to me :) axp_de^Hello! 09:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Icon changed. Wiebevl (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

How would these be called? BSicon , currently (File:BSicon_kABrf.svg) Wiebevl (talk) 18:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Jesus ... do we really need those?!?

Well, off the top of my head I'd say "BSicon_kABZrr.svg" or "BSicon_kABZ3r.svg" (the 3 stands for third quadrant), but that's really yet on the gut level ... Have a nice weekend! axp_de^Hello! 09:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :-) You too! Wiebevl (talk) 10:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Is my file correctly named

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 2

Hi, I recently created File:BSicon kABZr+xr.svg - the shape and colours are exactly what I need, but have I given it the correct name? --Redrose64 (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, as long as Wiebevl named File:BSicon kABZqr+xr.svg correctly (I guess he did well, although the kABZ-icons weren't my main concern), your name is fine as well! axp_de^Hello! 20:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a tricky terrain, with this way of naming you cannot really distinguish between 'vertical' and 'horizontal' positioned icons. I am aware of this flaw in my naming convention but I haven't yet thought of a solution so let's keep it as is for now. Wiebevl (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

D'accord. At least it's coherent with the naming of multiple branchings. axp_de^Hello! 14:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly :-) Wiebevl (talk) 15:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Junction+crossing

moved from User talk:Vunz

Hi, I created File:BSicon exkSTRg+l.svg recently, based upon your File:BSicon kSTR+l.svg. I can't remember why I put a "g" in the file name; it may have been a simple typo. Should it be renamed to File:BSicon exkSTR+l.svg; if so, how?

My plan is to create seven more red curves, and seven more pink curves; then eight dark blue and eight light blue curves, so that the various junction shapes missing from Category:Icons for railway descriptions/junction+crossing can be built up when required by using the overlay feature. To do this I need to name them correctly. Considering only the red curves, I am pretty sure of three names:

• File:BSicon kSTRr.svg - top middle to bottom left
• File:BSicon kSTRl.svg - top middle to bottom right
• File:BSicon kSTR+r.svg - bottom middle to top left

What would be the names for the other four red shapes - left middle to right top/bottom, and right middle to left top/bottom? Once I have these names, the colour variants will naturally be prefixed "ex", "u" or "uex" as applicable. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually your naming is better than mine, I renamed File:BSicon kSTR+l.svg to File:BSicon kSTRg+l.svg. That would mean that the other three 'vertical' shapes would be:

• File:BSicon kSTRgr.svg - top middle to bottom left
• File:BSicon kSTRgl.svg - top middle to bottom right
• File:BSicon kSTRg+r.svg - bottom middle to top left

The four 'horizontal' shaped icons should be named:

• File:BSicon kSTRqr.svg - left middle to top right
• File:BSicon kSTRql.svg - right middle to top left
• File:BSicon kSTRq+r.svg - left middle to bottom right
• File:BSicon kSTRq+l.svg - right middle to bottom left

In notice however that one of those already exists. I try to figure it out! Wiebevl (talk) 09:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Cross, from both left, to forward

Name!

This   (kABlr) — I’m uncertain about the name. Renaming discussion, please? --Tuvalkin (talk) 02:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

  (kAB+13)? Clearly the usual l/r system fails here. This is, for what it's worth a variant of  (kABZr+r). Circeus (talk) 02:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If we use the same naming rules as for parallel transverse lines, then it could be considered one of these two combinations:

(kABlr) =	(kSTRg+l)	=   (kSTRg+l-ABZg+2)
	(ABZrg) +  (STR+2)

or

(kABlr) =	(kSTRg+l)	=   (kSTRg+l-ABZg+l)
	(kABZg+l)

Useddenim (talk) 03:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

From the point of view of the k- icons, it is  (STRrg) aka STR+l + (STR+2). Circeus (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

kSTRq+r: Naming conflict

I run into a conflict while uploading what’s now   (kSTRq+r(!)), because of existing  (kSTRq+r). I cannot make heads or tails of which is the legitimate one. :-\ -- Tuválkin ✉ 23:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Please compare:

(kSTRq+r)	(exkSTRq+r)	(uSTRl+4)
(kSTRq+l)	(exkSTRq+l)	(uSTR3+l)
(kSTRqr)	(exkSTRqr)	(uSTRr+1)
(kSTRql)	(exkSTRql)	(uSTR2+r)
		▲ added by Useddenim (talk) 02:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

-- Tuválkin ✉ 00:04, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Current  (kSTRq+r) should be something like kSTRq+c3 (etc), maybe? -- Tuválkin ✉ 00:04, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Since the convention seems to be that + = "coming from", then IMHO  (kSTRq+r) should be  (kSTRqc3) (note no "+"). Useddenim (talk) 02:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

 (kSTRq+r) is now available for   (kSTRq+r(!)), but my Filemover permission is insufficient to make the change. Either an Admin will have to do it (which will preserve the file history, if anyone cares about it), or else the svg code can be uploaded again. Useddenim (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done (not by me, just reporting here) -- Tuválkin ✉ 09:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

However,  (kSTRq+l) v.s  (exkSTRq+l) is still a problem to be fixed. -- Tuválkin ✉ 09:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I asked a filemove for this one, but this is going to be messy. There is a huge number of kKRZ and kABZ to be fixed — the only good thing is that they are scarcely used, making filemoving simpler. -- Tuválkin ✉ 09:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

What will be the mess? Let me know. IDs of kKRZ/kSTR are goting to be finely sorted, I think. That's why I made a list recently in JAWP [2]. I know the conflict is still there at the time of my writing with kSTRq+l. Any other problem? --Maxima m (talk) 11:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

 (kSTRq+l) is done. As soon as the redirect is deleted the curve can be uploaded. Useddenim (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done -- Tuválkin ✉ 20:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

kSTR

	k	exk	uk	uexk
gl	(kSTRgl)	(exkSTRgl)	(ukSTRgl)	(uexkSTRgl)
gr	(kSTRgr)	(exkSTRgr)	(ukSTRgr)	(uexkSTRgr)
g+l	(kSTRg+l)	(exkSTRg+l)	(ukSTRg+l)	(uexkSTRg+l)
g+r	(kSTRg+r)	(exkSTRg+r)	(ukSTRg+r)	(uexkSTRg+r)
l	(kSTRl)	(exkSTRl)	(ukSTRl)	(uexkSTRl)
r	(kSTRr)	(exkSTRr)	(ukSTRr)	(uexkSTRr)
+l	(kSTR+l)	(exkSTR+l)	(ukSTR+l)	(uexkSTR+l)
+r	(kSTR+r)	(exkSTR+r)	(ukSTR+r)	(uexkSTR+r)
ql	(kSTRql)	(exkSTRql)	(ukSTRql)	(uexkSTRql)
qr	(kSTRqr)	(exkSTRqr)	(ukSTRqr)	(uexkSTRqr)
q+l	(kSTRq+l)	(exkSTRq+l)	(ukSTRq+l)	(uexkSTRq+l)
q+r	(kSTRq+r)	(exkSTRq+r)	(ukSTRq+r)	(uexkSTRq+r)
l+l	(kSTRl+l)	(exkSTRl+l)	(ukSTRl+l)	(uexkSTRl+l)
r+r	(kSTRr+r)	(exkSTRr+r)	(ukSTRr+r)	(uexkSTRr+r)
	(kSTRqc4)	(kSTRqlr)	(kSTRqc1)
	(kSTRqc3)	(kSTRq+lr)	(kSTRqc2)

Useddenim (talk) 18:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

k-tracks

Possibly my head has gone dizzy from several hours of calculating quadratic Bézier curves, but isn't that strange:

•  (STR+l) = track from the left
  •  (kSTRg+l) = "part along" of the k-track from the left =>  (kABZg+l)
    •  (kSTRq+l) = "part across" of the k-track from the left =>  (kABZq+l)
•  (STRr) = track from the left
  •  (kSTRgr) = "part along" of the k-track to the right =>  (kABZgr)
    •  (kSTRqr) = "part across" of the k-track to the right =>  (kABZqr)
•  (STRl) = track from the left
  •  (kSTRgl) = "part along" of the k-track to the left =>  (kABZgl)
    •  (kSTRql) not "part across" of the k-track to the left but  (kABZql) is OK
•  (STR+r) = track from the left
  •  (kSTRg+r) = "part along" of the k-track from the right =>  (kABZg+r)
  •  (kSTRq+r) not "part across" of the k-track from the right but  (kABZq+r) is OK

Likewise,  (kABZ+lr) =  (kSTRg+l) +  (kSTRg+r),  (kABZlr) =  (kSTRgl) +  (kSTRgr) , but  (kABZl+l) ≠  (kSTRq+l) +  (kSTRql) and  (kABZr+r) ≠  (kSTRqr) +  (kSTRq+r). Evidently,  (kSTRql) &  (kSTRq+r) should be swapped? All five versions of either (-, ex, u, uex, ut) are in limited use, so it will be quite easy... YLSS (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I knew something was off when I was creating the ut versions! Go ahead and make the change. Useddenim (talk) 01:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that those are ass-backwards, been telling that for ages. The fact that I use a different approach to reach the same conclusion shows that those approaches are compatible and harmonic. Go ahead, please. -- Tuválkin ✉ 12:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Whew,  Done. I had even to plunge into yellow and ex_grey (thanks to both of you! ;) YLSS (talk) 21:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yay! :-) -- Tuválkin ✉ 01:01, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

kAB

moved from Talk:BSicon/Obsolete and deletions/Archive 1

(ABZl2) (kABlf)

I always wondered what's the purpose of such icons as  (kABlf). Now I realise that they were created to emulate a composition of a 90° turn and a ÜW-shift in the absence of overlaying ability. Well, now that I've forced overlaying onto the ultra-conservative Italians, all the Wikipedias these icons are used in do permit overlaying. I don't want to sound like "these icons are ugly and senseless, let's delete them", but really, they do show a poorer design in comparison to ÜW. To be more precise, the radius of curvature in ÜW-shifts is symmetrical for both parts; in kAB, it changes rapidly close to the corner, with the tangent bending from 90° (vertical) via 45° to slightly less, then back to 45° at  (kABZc3). Maybe we could delete them (if I replace their usage)? YLSS (talk) 19:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Go right ahead. Useddenim (talk) 20:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

symmetric smooth unsmooth+smooth symmetric smooth+unsmooth assymmetric smooth+smooth

The icon ID naming is obscure ("kAB" just because "kABZ" was already taken) and it should be redone regardless of anything else. Concerning the matter at hand, while I agree with YLSS's main point and with systematic replacement of these icons where they are used to create a single split or triangle (see what I did here), I think that these have still a reason to exist — that’s where they are used in tandem with regular kABZ icons: They allow for symmetric forkings ( (kABZ+lr) vs  (kSTRg+r※ STR+1)  et c.), crossings and triangles, and are better at full 90° curves. Compare red and green possibilities in the new diagram at the right. -- Tuválkin ✉ 22:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah, you're right... What a nuisance. (Not that you're right, of course, but that they have a reason to exist.) I can only note that   (kABlr), which you've ridden yourself of, is also beneficial to a degree: potentially it shows better geometry than  (STR+2) (though worse than  (vSTR+2-)). YLSS (talk) 23:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I still think that  (kABlf) should be deleted. I've found an answer to Tuválkin's reasoning from the last time: if you want symmetry, use not k-junctions, but üw-junctions on both sides. (Do we need to resurrect that discussion?) YLSS (talk) 08:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

It is now resurrected (happy easter! ;-) I still think it is needed. If you achieve symmetry by use of regular 90° curves (3 and +1) and corners (4 and 2), like in the example I recolored yellow, the big curve is not “smooth” (well, not circular — 2nd derivative is not constant). -- Tuválkin ✉ 17:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but any curve with kAB is even less "smooth"! In that tiny space both derivatives make a jump. YLSS (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

k-corners

Now that all of the ÜWc# icons have been renamed to STRc#, shouldn't the kABZc# group follow suit (i.e.  (kABZc1) →  (kSTRc1) etc.), especially as there isn't any junction on the icon? Useddenim (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

 I agree! -- Tuválkin ✉ 11:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

If you really want to embark upon this task, you should first decide how to name these:   (kSTRr),  (kSTRl+l),  (kSTRq+lr),   (kSTRqc2),  (kSTRqc3),  (kBHFl+l) etc. And I would also favour renaming  (kSTRgl) to   (kSTRl), as there is no track through, and  (kSTRql) to... erm... ? YLSS (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

existing	new	similar to
(kSTRr)	kSTR+c4	(STR+c4)
(kSTRl+l)	kSTR+c12
(kSTRq+lr)	kSTRq+c23
(kSTRqc2)	kSTRq+c2
(kSTRqc3)	kSTRq+c3
(kBHFl+l)	kBHF+c12
(kSTRgl)	kSTRl kSTR2c†
(kSTRql)	kSTRl+4c†	(STRl+4h)

† Is the “c” suffix necessary? Useddenim (talk) 21:02, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Useddenim (talk) 10:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's either "k" or "c". Maybe some ideas about  (kABlf)? It shouldn't be **kABZg+2l, as that would be  . And also  (hkABZq1) vs.  (hkABZc1). P.S. What's your intentions WRT  (kKRZol): leave them as they are or kKRZo+c1? YLSS (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

No need to change the KRoZings. Useddenim (talk) 00:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

As a test, I uploaded   (ukABZq3) &  (ukABZq2). How does that look? Also, IMO there's no need to find a better name for  (kABlf) etc. – I still think that they should be deleted. I've found an answer to Tuválkin's reasoning from the last time: if you want symmetry, use not k-junctions, but üw-junctions on both sides. (Do we need to resurrect that discussion?) YLSS (talk) 08:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

And since I was the one who kicked open this can of worms, I suppose I should also change the 3STR/3ABZ set as well. (Only about 150 79 icons—no need to change the KRZ and middle sections—that aren't in widespread use…) Useddenim (talk) 14:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

(I tried to use them as often as I could! But of course it takes time... YLSS (talk) 16:28, 11 October 2014 (UTC))