File talk:Gulf of Sirt Front.svg/Archive 1

Label and icon size

excellent map. Perhaps enlarge the size of some of the more important labels and map icons so it can be thumbnailed in the article? --Dbachmann (talk) 13:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I personally prefer the other version to be in the infobox as it looks more compatible with the Libya uprising map, I could also add roads and symbols to it.

I have tried enlarging some labels but the map looks too crowded Also the city outlines look minuscule compared to them.-- Rafy (talk) 17:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree it doesn't belong in the infobox. There is only so much information that you can squeeze into a side column apart from the actual article.

The proper application of this map is in the article body. I am trying to use it, see here. But the labels need to be at least big enough so they can be read in 780x400 format:

At present, I can read most city names (barely), but I cannot read the labels on the roads, and I cannot read the dates. I also cannot read the scale. And I can't make out the symbols for ports and for the minor airfields. These seriously need to become larger, there is plenty of space left on the map as rendered at this size. of course this map can never be thumbnailed to width 200px, as all information other than "Gulf of Sidra" will simply be lost on the viewer. --Dbachmann (talk) 14:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I have uploaded one with larger fonts. Hope it's more visible now.--Rafy (talk) 07:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

According to the 'other map' showing the cities of Libya as a whole, Brega has been retaken by the rebels on 1st April. Ought we not harmonise?92.238.94.60 20:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Brega

Brega has been liberated: Al Arabiya --Wikiharr (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

• BBC - Libyan rebels say they are largely in control of the key eastern town of Brega, after close fighting in residential areas. They say Brega has been heavily mined and there are still pockets of resistance. It has not been possible to independently verify the rebel claims. - 79.113.68.213 13:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega is surrounded, according to AJE Live Blog. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Misrata advances

According to this, rebels in Misrata are advancing westward. Apparently they do not plan on taking Zliten, but they are moving forward nonetheless. Red colour should be expanded west of Misrata and a red arrow added. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Same now goes for the south of misrata MonteMiz (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The map is not the same as the tripolitarian front, it Misrata where is the lake south of Taworgha? The Rebels advance south that lake according to this map [1]

There is no lake. Just a salt wadi.--Rafy (talk) 23:04, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

confusing date order

File:Tripolitanian Front.svg has the most recent date on top. This file has the most recent date on bottom. That makes it confusing to switch between the two maps. Since this map changes less than the other one, could we reverse the order of the dates to match? Kwamikagami (talk) 14:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

So fix it. It just requires Inkscape on your computer. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:21, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done.--Rafy (talk) 23:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Al-Heisha ("Abu Gren" on the map)

AJE reports rebel claims that the eastern Misrata front has been pushed up to Al-Heisha [2]. Has anyone a proper source? Elllit (talk)

Oh, and it was my guess that this town was meant by the above report. I'm sure tho. Elllit (talk) 05:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

This villages are named almost the same, which it could be?: http://wikimapia.org/#lat=31.6440289&lon=15.2682495&z=13&l=28&m=b&search=31.6440289N%2015.2682495E And the main problem. Why the rebels didn't take the airport? O maybe they did?Boniek1988 (talk) 18:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point. Too bad that non-biased news are as sparse from the eastern/southern Misratan front as from western Nafusa. Elllit (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I still only found Andrew Simmons twitter posts: [3]. He uses "Al Hayshah". Too bad, it sounds like opposition forces advanced a good deal further along the road to Sirte. I'll keep looking. Elllit (talk) 18:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Every news agency relies on this statement[4]. There is "coastal", so this is the village on the end of that salt swamps. Boniek1988 (talk) 23:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Sirte front

Per the NYT [5], the frontline west of Sirte is quite a bit farther east than we have it. I would assume that the NYT knows what's its doing in that department, so we should probably move it. 68.42.243.198 14:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Copying a diagram without understanding why the diagram is done that way is not a good idea. If someone knows the sources that state where along the road to Sirte is under anti-G control and it's further than the town(s)/village(s) discussed above, then give those sources. It's impossible* to know whether the person making the NYT image meant the detailed position to be taken seriously or whether it was just an educated guess. [* unless s/he decides to talk on this talk page] Boud (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Brega

Huffington Post/w:Press Association/Colonel Bani of the anti-Gaddafi forces: anti-G "fighters gained control of the industrial section of Brega, after having captured its residential areas last week. ... We have liberated Brega and all of it is under our control. The fighters are in the port and have taken the refineries." [6].

But: from sources used in w:Fourth_Battle_of_Brega#Second_rebel_offensive, "However, later Saturday, rebel military spokesman Col. Ahmed Bani said his troops fell back in Brega, losing the industrial section of the key oil port to Gadhafi’s forces." [7] Also Xinhuanet: [8].

No change to the map for the moment IMHO. Boud (talk) 19:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

• Al-Jazeera says that "the Libyan rebels have taken control of Al-Akila in eastern Libya, and are heading towards the oil port of Ras Lanuf.". I suspect that Al-Akila is another way to write Al-Uqayla. Map should be updated -82.77.55.126 11:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Split map

There's map showing war till 29 Mar, maybe someone can change it and create maps showing periods till 20 Mar, 21 Mar-31 Mar and 1 Apr-now? Mixx321 (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Sirte

AJE is reporting that Sirte is under siege. I think it is safe to assume that the attack is coming from Misrata. --NetRolller 3D (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-aug-22-2011-1910 "According to Mustafa Jalil, Sirte is under seige. / Al Jazeera's sources confirm that electricity to the city has been cut and communications disrupted and senior Gaddafi officials have taken refuge there. Amongst them is the Information Minister Ali al Kilani. / While in Brega ppposition fighters have entered the industrial area after a rebel artillery barrage drove off Gaddafi forces." Any confirming or opposing sources? Probably time for an update soon if there are no counterclaims. Boud (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Red area should be added south of Misrata (around Sirte), Brega to rebels. 70.187.185.194 20:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

What of this Guardian map from yesterday showing Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad?[9] Kwamikagami (talk) 04:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a mistake, if it's from yesterday. Unless you can find a news report. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, they just took Akila, heading to Ras.[10] By which perhaps they mean Uqaylah? Kwamikagami (talk) 11:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Just a few hours before the whole coast goes anti-G: we'll need a direct MSM report on this, but a twitter tweet claims AJA breaking: Sirte is negotiating with opposition fighters to enter the city without bloodshed #Libya. (So Gaddafi has presumably not fled to Sirte; maybe to Sabha, or already close to the Chadian border?) Boud (talk) 19:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Uqualya

Al Uqualya to rebels 23 August (Al Jazira) 94.251.235.149 12:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC) And Ras Lanuf too. Mixx321 (talk) 12:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

West of Sirte

On what grounds there is an arrow west of Sirt and rebel-held territory so far on this map??? Isn't the last statement/report were that rebels are in Abu Gren?

On a vaugely related note, Abu Gren/Abugrein, though used in the media, is a horrible transliteration. Abu Qurayn (an alternative on GMaps) or Abu Qurein is a better one. Yes, I know we have to use the media spelling, I just find it annoying. --Quintucket (talk) 16:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I meant that is any source that rebels have marched through this place and marched east in direction of Sirte?Boniek1988 (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Heesh

Does anybody know where Heesh is? Google maps shows a few unlabled villages between Sirte and Bwayrat Al-Hasun, and a few more between Bwayrat Al-Hasun and Abu Quarayn, but no villages labled as but doesn't show any towns labled Heesh. (And yes I speak some Arabic and can read the script, but there's nothing.) Heesh is apparently the limit of republican advance[11]. --Quintucket (talk) 16:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe this? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Or this? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Hesha is a tiny settlement south of Misrata, New Hesha (Al Hesha Al Jedeeda) the same town known as Abu Qurein (Bu Gren). Sirt is apparently not really under siege then--Rafy (talk) 18:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that in statement Jibril said that Sirte is under siege, but not that rebel formations are around city, but that they cut all supply roads and resources in city are close to an end. And just look up on Al-Heisha ("Abu Gren" on the map)Boniek1988 (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The Misrata rebels are just going on Sirte, but I don't think that in past week they were between Abu Gren and Sirt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qUnQLKsKNs8#at=92Boniek1988 (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Lothar, thanks. Hayash and Heesh seem worlds away, so I wouldn't have looked for that when reading the transliterations. But if the Arabic name is something like "هيش" I could easily see someone mistakenly reading it as "Heesh." Hell, I could see me rendering that as "Heesh." --Quintucket (talk) 19:42, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course Hayash isn't on the main road, and is north of Abu Qurein. Are the loyalists using these people as hostages ("move on Sirte and we'll kill you") rather than human shields ("If you come through me, you'll have to come through this damsel in distress")? Or do we have the wrong city? --Quintucket (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Nawfaliya reportedly taken by rebels

According to this report by Al Jazeera, Nawfaliya was taken by the rebels as the map shows. It is west of Bin Jawad. I thought the Eastern based rebels were still mired at Bin Jawad but maybe the Gaddaffi forces are retreating to defend Sirte at a more closer location from this city. --Leoboudv (talk) 09:35, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly. Like I've said elsewhere, the rebels have a habit of capturing cities one day and promising to capture them again the next. So they hadn't really taken Bin Jawad. Now they have, and have moved on to Nofaliya. Any rate, it shall be done. --Quintucket (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Reports of rebels "surrounding" Sirte

This morning I saw an ABC News report describing rebels surrounding Sirte on its "eastern side and western side and even the southern side", with rebel ships reportedly preventing any access from the sea.[12]. I think the map should be updated to show rebels around Sirte. 122.106.74.33 09:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "Ringing the town are dozens of tanks, anti-aircraft guns, batteries of rockets and hundreds if not thousands of rebel soldiers lying in wait for the order to attack."[13] They also say loyalists are isolated in one part of the city, away from residential areas. But is that reality or just NTC propaganda? Kwamikagami (talk) 15:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

As of yesterday, the rebels on the Western Front were 140 km from Sirte making forays to up to half that distance. Aside from capturing Heesh (under various names), they haven't moved much further. I assume the eastern front is about the same. --Quintucket (talk) 15:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

It would be interesting if there actually were anything to the south, but it seems not. Kwamikagami (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the talk for the big map, there is. But we don't know how far south. Only that the rebels claim to have "staked out the approach from the south." If there's no objections, I'm going to update the map so that everything between where rebels are known to be an loyalists are known to be ( a small area around Sirte proper) is white. --Quintucket (talk) 18:49, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

That sounds good, but also include patrols if you can, as in all the other maps. There was that loyalist patrol caught by rebels shown on Al J, so presumable the loyalists control everything up to the rebels in that direction. Kwamikagami (talk) 19:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not clear... How would I indicate patrols? Or are you saying that I should color it green or red? Between Abu Qurein and Sirte is basically empty desert, a no-man's land, which is why I proposed fading it out.--Quintucket (talk) 20:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of the green and red on our maps is empty desert, including the red on either side of this map. If it's empty desert with the occasional loyalist patrol, it should be green. With the occasional rebel patrol, red. Also, I suspect that if there were really nothing between Qurein and Sirt, the rebels would be just out of artillery range of Sirt. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd heard the rebels stopped where they did because of the Scud missile threat. But I can do it that way, as long as there's no overlap between patrols. Closest rebel patrol is 70 km from Sirte. Do you have any sources for the loyalist patrols? --Quintucket (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

If the rebels are keeping away from Sirt because of a missile threat, then the loyalists control the intervening space with missiles.

No, just that they caught a loyalist patrol w/o saying where. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Not so sure about the whole Scuds thing. If the rebels were trying to stay out of reach of them outright, they'd be a loooooong ways away. True, they're not accurate at distance, but I don't think the position of the current frontlines has much to do with them.

Much more likely is that anti-G forces are taking their sweet time in the interests of minimising bloodshed. They're negotiating with the inhabitants of both Wadi Harawa and Sirte. These towns don't have much strategic worth (unlike Bani Walid, where our friend the Colonel is reportedly hiding), and they don't want to get involved in much street fighting, so they're playing it safe. Right now, the positions they are in put plenty of pressure on Sirte.

Desert patrols ≠ desert control. I don't know where y'all are getting that idea. These operate in a grey area of no-man's land and try to scout out the other side's positions. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:11, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

My point is that there are huge areas of the country that we color red or green that have no control except for the occasional patrol. If that's good enough for the rest of the country, it's good enough for Sirt. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Siege of Sirte

OK, I think we need to discuss this. As I said on the cities map, I've seen several sources, of which I linked the two I consider the most reputable.[14][15] When you said I didn't read the article properly, I'm not sure if you're talking about these, or something else. Either way, could you please explain?
Also, I didn't delete layers. I added a layer. I did however drastically reduce the size of the green one. --Quintucket (talk) 18:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Please do not add the white space on the map, it makes it look blotchy and pasty. 70.187.185.194 19:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

+1. A good alternative is to extend the transitional area from green to red like the region between Nalut and Ras Ajdir on the other map.--Rafy (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll try to do that next time I edit. I'd still like to hear from Ellsworth why he thinks the rebels haven't taken the southern approaches. Or from anyone who has sources to that effect. Any rate, g'nite. --Quintucket (talk) 22:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I think 'staked out southern approaches' (in the BBC report) does not qualify as 'control', in my view it describes just reconnaissance missions. And the CSM report citing rebels as 'as not yet having entered Harawa, but would do so by tomorrow' also needs confirmation that they actually did enter it. --noirdesir 22:15, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks. --Quintucket (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Layers were already explained but as for Sirt - first of all we do not have reliable confirmation about some encirclemnt, it remains just and only rebel statement which was not independently verified. Second - rebel never announced that they have under their control road from Sirte to Hun, on contrary they didnt have problem announcing it in case of Beni Walid (that they control road from Beni Walid to Sabbha), nor have they ever mentioned that eastern and western troops have met. As for Hrawa, they announced that elders of village agreed to hand-over village peacefully but that rebel army have not yet entered the village. Plus both BBC Jonny Hallam and Sky News Neal Mann were allowed to travel with rebel scout groups and all they mentioned on their twitter accounts and their followinng articles was that rebel scout groups reached Wadi el Ghindel, not even Red Valley. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:10, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'm not sure I buy it, but the "staked out" = random patrols, while leaving the escape routes open makes sense, particularly in light of the ABC article below. Though there's the question of whether the loyalists actually control those roads either. I feel like if we're not using white, brown might be appropriate for those areas.

As for layers, I'm still not sure where you got the idea that I deleted layers. --Quintucket (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The Guardian says that rebels have "have pushed to the town of Wadi Hawarah, 30 miles from Sirte." [16]. So even if they are not encircling Sirt, the map needs to be updated to show the rebels at Wadi Hawarah. 122.106.51.194 01:51, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Do we know they really have done this (reached/taken Wadi Hawarah)? Via confirmation by journalist on ground or the like?--Paracel63 (talk) 13:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not confirmed they are in Wadi Harwa, but they are fighting for the village. http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/libya-rebel-forces-near-gaddafis-home-town/97711/ But it is not mentioned if it is FF from the Western or the Eastern front. Also obviously there is no clear GF frontline there as the FF commander speaks of pockets of resistance everywhere, and as there is no food, water and electricity in the city, Sirte is clearly under siege, see Reuters report 193.159.187.67 16:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

•  Comment: The Australians here say that Sirte is surrounded. I take that to mean that the rebel forces from Misrata have reached Sirte (From the west) and have either cut it off from its outside or are waiting for their much slower brothers from the East to reach them. But the ABC reporter confirms that Sirte is surrounded and any escape that is left open...is deliberately left open as a death trap for escapees or Ghaddafi loyalists. So, maybe the map from the west of Sirte onwards Really should be coloured under rebel control. Any views? --Leoboudv (talk) 03:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, thank you Leoboudv. It appears that I was wrong. --Quintucket (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

How many more sources do we need before Ellsworth will believe that the front line is much closer to Sirte? Perhaps we need that Syrian television station that broadcasts Gaddafi's rants to admit that first. We have at least half a dozen reputable sources saying that Sirte is surrounded, or that there are NTC troops much closer to the town than the map suggests in the past few days. Change the map, and stop reverting it back, the facts are clear. 122.106.51.194 02:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree, yes. —Nightstallion (?) 08:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

A reuters journo 45 km at Sirte, so the frontline even closer. 193.159.187.67 11:54, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Now Reuters say FF from both west and east are ready to move into Sirte if the command to do so comes. This would mean FF are very close to Sirte, maybe not more than 20-30 km. 193.159.187.67 15:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Great, now another IP is going to preach here about the articles. Read en:WP:RS, till we dont have independent confirmation - what we do not have - we do nothing. As for your sources, if you would even try to locate damn places on the map you´d know where Umm El Ghindel is located, its before Red Valley. I´ve been editing these articles since the beginning of the whole conflict and I never, ever saw so much disinformations as in this war, especially regarding frontlines (Brega, anyone) and so I dont believe anything that is not ocnfirmed by journalist on the ground. Rebel claims will remain claims only till its confirmed just as loyalist claims will remain claims only. So next time think twice before shouting on someone. Thanks. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Bytheway Umm El Ghindel is more than 100km from the Sirt. Open wikimapia and find it there. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is BBC, saying that the frontline (at the east) barely moved. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14790041 193.159.187.67 22:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe some geography experts know where "the river" is? That's actually a main site of combats http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-9-2011-1959 193.159.187.67 19:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Red River. About what we show on the map. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Now Sirte is in combat as FF reached it from west, with the until now biggest army in the war, counting 900 vehicles http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/15/167046.html 93.133.101.243 17:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Sky Australia too: http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=662189&vId= 93.133.101.243 17:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

"from Area 2..." in the Al Arabiya report means the FF are now absolutely in the city center. According "twitterers" are FF holding now most of downtown, while they are heavily shelled there with 14.5 grenades by GF. Also the airport is now secured. GF forces are massing in SE of Sirte. Obviously the flat landscape makes Sirte much more hard to defend than the mountain valleys in Bani Walid - and FF sent their best fighters to Sirte, especially the ones from Misrata. Makes sense from a militaric state of view 93.133.101.243 18:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The map doesn't look right. The map looks like the front is 40 km away from Sirte, while the sources say FF already passed a bridge about 4 km from city center away. See wikimapia 93.133.101.243 21:23, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Now also more on CNN http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/09/15/black-sirte-military-offensive.cnn&hpt=hp_c1 93.133.101.243 21:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Things develop there fast, the Guardian now reports that the city center of Sirte has fallen to FF, leaving just pockets of GF resistance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/15/gaddafi-birthplace-captured-by-rebels 93.133.101.243 21:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

An earlier report of AJE said the FF retreated a bit after meeting stiff resistance, now AJE has removed that part and says FF are fighting in the city centre. GF are concentrated in a high rise office tower. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/09/2011915235553251868.html 193.159.187.67 08:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

AJE reports about claims that parts of Sirte were already under control of freedom movement, but not connected to FF and under siege by GF for three months http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1414 Also Harwa is the main base of the elite GF Khamis Brigade (that had also remote camps near Tripoli and Al Khams), and the decisive battle might not be the city of Sirte itself, but the area between Sirte and Harwa, where the main bases of GF are. 193.159.187.67 11:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Spelling

Is there a reason it's "Qasr" in Misrata but "Gasr" in Sirte? 76.117.247.55 15:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Just different transliterations. "Qasr" follows more traditional Arabic pronunciation, but "Gasr" follows the actual Libyan pronunciation. The two are essentially interchangeable. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

map not updating

I'm getting the accidental arabic revision on certain pages (like en:Libyan rebel advance on Sirte and en:2011 Libyan civil war), though not on others. Is this due to a png not being updated or is it just my browser's problem? Thanks in advance... Ansh666 (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm getting Arabic on the Sirte map too, but when I click on it, I get English. Weird. Rivkid007 (talk) 03:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Some wiki bug, Rafy accidentaly uploaded arabic version of map before reverting it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Waddan & The 'Red Valley'

Has the 'Red Valley' fallen or is it false news? The Australians here cite a rebel statement that it has fallen and that they are closer to Eastern Sirte. Yesterday, I read that the town of Waddan south of Sirte had fallen to the rebels--but there is no independent confirmation. But I suppose that most townspeople in Libya can see which way the wind is blowing and are tired of NATO airstrikes to be willing to consider a surrender...unless you are in Bani Walid, Sirte or Sebha which are true strongholds of Ghaddafi's regime. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 05:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

From what I understand they took the Red Valley and then fell back under an artillery barrage. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, if they've taken Waddan, which direction did they come from? Do they now control the Abu Gren – Abu Njem road all the way down to Waddan? That would change our map substantially. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

•  Comment: I think Kwamikagami makes a good point. Without independent confirmation, its just a claim then sadly. Perhaps the rebels did take the Red Valley but Sirte still is full of weaponry which is why the rebels haven't attacked it head on yet. They still aren't ready. --Leoboudv (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

My understanding now is that Waddan was a local uprising, and that they're being shelled from Hun, but no mention of NTC forces. So there's no reason to think from that that the western side of our map has changed. Kwamikagami (talk) 08:59, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Now reports[17] of rebels being sent to Sabha, but I don't know if from Misrata or Benghazi or both. Kwamikagami (talk) 01:14, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks. The last I read some Ghaddafi loyalists left Sirte to try to recapture the Red Valley but the NTC forces held their ground. That's the problem with the Ghaddafi loyalists situation. They can hold out for a while in hard to capture towns and cities like Bani Walid, Sirte, Sebha and perhaps Jufra? but if they leave these places, they're totally exposed to NTC and NATO attacks because the odds are even. I don't know what happened to Waddan but that's OK. Its all quiet here anyway. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 05:38, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree for the most part. Except that sayig "odds are even" when one side has total air superiority and top-of-the-class close air support in place seem more of a black humor than reality.89.102.1.194 12:32, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Clarification. Situation i simple, you have 2 warring factions - former Libyan military plus local militia on one side and a not-really-even-militia NTC forces. When they are left to duke it out alone, NTC forces get their stuff and run. When NATO-Arab alliance intervenes, either by CAS, special forces, Blackwater, you name it, then Loyalists play hide-and-seek or actually fight if special forces get inserted. Then if NATO forces succeeded, NTC forces get a short window when they can move in and "occupy" territory. Then, if loyalist have ammo to shoot, water to drink and not-bombed-yet heavy weapons left operational, they send them packing again. And so forth. Thus came the speech from Saturday of a frustrated fighter that Loyalists just ignore them and see NATO as the real enemy. That is simply the way it is - without bombing of Bani Walid and Sirte basin rebels would not dare venture there en masse.

Proof? That's easy. Rebel incompetence (coupled to loyalist competence and will to fight) is the sole reason NATO is still "protecting" civilians from the dangers of this world. Eternallly.89.102.1.194 19:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yes you're right. The odds are heavily tilted towards the NTC. No wonder the Ghaddafi loyalists want to cling to the towns they hold. There are many civilians that they could pehaps use as human shields should they wish. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

And blue is yellow and black is white.89.102.1.194 18:50, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

In this Businessweek/Bloomberg report is the distance of FF from Sirte in the west named: 30 miles / 50 km http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-09-12/libyan-opposition-pushes-toward-qaddafi-birthplace-of-sirte.html 77.4.235.208 15:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This map is outdated

The rebels entered Sirte, should someone update this map? 200.221.129.54 00:33, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

map misbehaving

I expanded the western flank to show attacks from the west and south, and retracted the eastern flank to the coast to show a lack of control of the desert. Unfortunately, the eastern flank now doesn't display at all on WC, even though it displays just fine in Inkscape. (Damn that's an annoying program!) Can someone fix, please? Kwamikagami (talk) 01:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I give up. The eastern front is just a reshaped duplicate of the western front. Yet one shows up here and the other doesn't. I don't know why Inkscape doesn't follow WYSIWYG. Kwamikagami (talk) 03:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

From experience I found that blurred shapes tend to show unpredictable results at the edges better use gradient there and keep the blurred ones for the middle parts.--Rafy (talk) 08:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Inkscape is not to blame here, the problem is in the rsvg library used by Wikimedia. (It usually is. As much as I like it, the SVG implementation in rsvg is very incomplete.)—Emil J. 15:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Abu Njema and the airport

Do we have claims of Abu Nujeima (Abu Njema, Bu Njema...etc) and the airport being taken? Anti-Gaddafi tend to brag about their advances so this shouldn't have gone unreported.--Rafy (talk) 08:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

There were some, looong time ago, few days after fall of Taworga but I dont think that I´ll find it now. --EllsworthSK (talk) 08:17, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Scratch that, what airport are you talking about now Rafy? Al Nimwah - between Taworgha and Hishah or Sirt airport? Because I dont see any airport new Abu Nujeima, just these two.--EllsworthSK (talk) 08:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Sirt Airport.--Rafy (talk) 08:51, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Obviously the Sirte Airport was taken "Al Jazeera television said NTC forces had taken Sirte's airport, which lies some 10 km (six miles) south of the city." http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/16/us-libya-idUSTRE7810I820110916 BBC also says so in live coverage, and reports of heavy clashes there before. On the other side, this means the front line is close. 193.159.187.67 12:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Intersting is, what Jenan Moussa, a reporter of Dubai based Al Aan TV says, who is currently with FF in Sirte: "Rebels also got into old airport inside #sirt yesterday. The controlled it for couple of hrs but its open space; cant be protected." What is on the Al Aan page, I don't understand for I can't Arabic, but she twits in English http://twitter.com/#!/jenanmoussa 93.133.105.197 08:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Could it be this? It's as far away from city centre as the new airport but within easier reach for a military force coming from the west. And it sure is open space.--Paracel63 (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Wadi Harawa to NTC

According to AJE, NTC forces seized Wadi Harawa today without encountering much of any resistance: [18] ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Nofayila dates

says that it was captured by rebels in august and was never retaken, someone needs to change that... Ansh666 (talk) 03:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Why? --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

JUST KIDDING, I saw the wrong date. Ignore this. Ansh666 (talk) 18:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Extent of Desert Control

Is there a consensus on whether the desert (or rebel control thereof) south of the coastline should be shown? I ask this because the map has changed back and forth many times in regards to this. It is my understanding that part of this problem is the result of incorrectly uploaded files/Wiki not displaying them correctly. I was just wondering what the current stance on the issue is. -Noha307 (talk) 15:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No, there isn´t and frankly I believe we should not have a map for Fezzan in same matter we have for Gulf of Sirt and Tripolitania. Just look at districts like Wadi al-Shati where all towns (8 of them) are concentrated on one road while rest is desert which basicly belongs to no one else but camels. We should keep it in matter of taken/contested cities but not giving territorian control over desert to one fraction, it would just create a mess and would border with WP:OR. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:08, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I changed it because of the loyalist attack from the desert on a rebel-held town. Obviously the rebels do not control the desert the way they do the coastal road and towns. That doesn't mean that the loyalists control it either, but since we started with the entire country green and changed it to red as rebels took control, IMO we should only have red where rebels have taken control. Or areas of desert which do not have a loyalist presence and are surrounded by rebel-held territory. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

That logic only held true as long as Gaddafi and friends were still running the show from Tripoli and could reasonably be said to control the country de jure. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Then why not do the same thing in the west, and show red control all the way to the bottom of the map? We've always been cautious about claiming control where we have no source to support us. This seems inconsistent. Kwamikagami (talk) 10:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that this is a good idea. We should simply draw borders according to which one is controlling the closest inhabited to them. Abu Njema is still presumably under Gaddafi's control since the tribes there are still loyal to him, the same goes for the region linking Hun with the coastal area. The desert to the south the NTC controlled coastal area should be presumed under their control as it is simply an extension to the inhabited region to the north (Unless we know of Gaddafists waiting for an ambush in the middle of the desert which is unlikely).--Rafy (talk) 11:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Where is Abu Njema? Google has trouble finding it.--Paracel63 (talk) 13:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the typo it's Abu Njem.--Rafy (talk) 13:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Then Wikimapia calls it "Abu Nijain", and Google calls it "Abu Nujaym". :-)--Paracel63 (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

But Abu Njem is south of the rebel-held coastal area. What objective criterion do we have to treat it differently?

(I redid the map so the green would stand out more. I'm not trying to suggest that my version is better.) Kwamikagami (talk) 23:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I meant that we colour the desert according to which one is controlling the closest human settlement to it.

The town is inhabited by a pro-Gaddafi tribe (like most areas in Sirt and Jufra) and we haven't heard any news of NTC activity there, (at least I haven't :)).--Rafy (talk) 12:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

How's that? I've removed the red, so we're not claiming control of the desert one way or the other. Areas confirmed as being under loyalist control are still green, and all the dates remain. I think a format like this would work for the Fezzan, and would be useful for the Timeline article. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Map retirement

Isn't it about time to retire this map, though? Wouldn't File:Libyan Uprising.svg tell us about as much? It seems the problems we have with it are the same reason we don't want a Fezzan map: unknown control of the desert. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, but would rather opt for the Libyan Civil War map: File:2011_Libyan_Civil_War.png instead of the two smaller ones (the Gulf of Sirt Front and the Tripolitan Front map), where it seems only single towns are in pro-Gad control. These maps seem to just have one final step left, rendering them entirely red. Libyan Civil War map gives a better overall impression of the current state without neglecting the information of the other two. Elllit (talk) 07:33, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

hm, maybe this talk would fit better into the Talk pages of the Main article and the Timeline? Elllit (talk) 07:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

That map is ten times worse. We won't let it on WP-en because it's utter fantasy. Kwamikagami (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I see. Because of the unknown situation in the remote/desert regions, I guess. Well, then I agree with your statement. Elllit (talk) 11:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. It was bad enough trying to fill in the uninhabited regions in the Tripolitania map, but at least that was a fairly minor exercise in OR. (Well, until recently. I think it should be retired too.) But when we get to the Sahara, any color would be meaningless, as would not coloring it in at all. We simply don't know enough. Kwamikagami (talk) 05:49, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I take this back. This map is still useful for the timeline article. I've removed the red so that we aren't saying anything about desert control one way or the other. If/when Sirt falls, the green will disappear, we'll add a date, and the map will continue to be useful. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this map should stay. It's better to make a map of Sirte/Bani Walid only in order to show the advances of the FF in those two cities (like the one with Tripoli/Misratah only)--Vectrex 08:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The distance of the eastern FF front to Sirte is way too big. It should be 25 km http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-22-2011-1015 193.159.187.67 12:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, according to NATO, loyalist control extends further south.[19] Kwamikagami (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

NATO maps accuracy?

Talking of the NATO maps mentioned above… There are some interesting things to note here. Not sure how they fit into the big picture, the one reported on Wikipedia for the last six months and the ones reported through major media during that time. What I _can_ see, however, is the almost appallingly bad quality of copy, graphic quality and precision. The legends of the overview maps have not gone through basic proofreading (both colours claiming to be anti-Gaddhafi!), cities and towns are misplaced more often than not, and the level of detail leaves a lot to be desired. In this light, I'd be a bit cautious to use these as WP:RS on their own, not having other WP:RS available.--Paracel63 (talk) 10:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, they're pretty pathetic, almost doodles. But they've got more intel than we do, so it's still a step up. Kwamikagami (talk) 11:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Also says Nalut was G-controlled for most of the beginning of the war. Not the case at all. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Which "NTC" forces took the Eastern Gate of Sirte?

I'm a bit puzzled. This report from AFP was published at the Al Jazeera live blog on Friday:

Fighters of Libya's National Transitional Council have penetrated the eastern gate of Sirte, the hometown of Muammar Gaddafi, after entering it without any resistance from the former leader's forces, a commander told the AFP news agency on Friday. "Our fighters are in control of the eastern gate of Sirte," Commander Ahmed Zlitni from the operations centre told AFP. "They are two kilometres (1.2 miles) ahead of the gate and holding positions there. Technically we can say that we entered Sirte from the east," Zlitni said, adding that the fighters "did not face any resistance" when they crossed the gate. Fighter Muatiz Saad, deployed near the town of Sultana, 30 kilometres (19 miles) east of Sirte, also told AFP that a large number of his comrades had entered Sirte from the eastern gate. "I was at the frontline and I came to know that our troops have entered Sirte from the eastern gate," he told AFP at one of their bases near the town of Harawa, around 40 kilometres east of Sirte. Earlier this week the fighters of the National Transitional Council, Libya's new ruling body, faced stiff resistance around six kilometres ahead of the town of Sultana from loyalists of Gaddafi. For the past four days they had been unable to push ahead and from early Thursday there was also a drop in fighting after they faced shortages of ammunition. [AFP]

So, do we know that these were the people of the eastern front? Cause we know they were far east of Sirte only days ago, facing stiff resistance and lacking ammunition. While people from the west had laid (a partial) siege on Sirte from positions on the western gate and the area around the airport. I would like to believe this info from NATO, that pro-Gaddhafi fighters now only control Sirte proper plus the long wadi "upstream". Even if this looks very strange on a map. But they may also control parts of the area between the eastern gate and Sultan/Harawa. What do you think?--Paracel63 (talk) 16:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Update to myself. This Al Jazeera report from later on Friday seems to corroborate (to a certain extent) that these are indeed fighters from the east.--Paracel63 (talk) 16:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Coastal road?

so NTC spokesperson claims the highway is under NTC control http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/25/libya-siege-sirte-gaddafi-stronghold?newsfeed=true shouldn't the road part in the map at be mixed red and green in the areas where it is shown as totally green? Seektrue (talk) 03:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In all likelyhood the NTC forces are able to move along the coastal road (which goes between airport and Sirte on plains, so any force thre is fully exposed) but definitely do not control it.

They seem to be able to partially move, but they cannot stop unless they want to get blown up. Looks like a no (sane) man's land to me. It would also correspond to the situation of the Roundabout forces that were reported impossible to reinforce - such a situation cannot happen if you control a road.

Seem reasonable (you, unsigning poster). In the eastern part of the town proper there seems to be no roundabouts, only simple crossings. But outside of the built-up area there is this and this. The first one is more directly linked with the (capture of) Sirte's port, which lies east of the town. The second one is a roundabout linking town with the highway. So, claiming the eastern NTC forces are inside town, based solely upon the roundabout info, would be a bit optimistic.--Paracel63 (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Was me, forgot the tildes .. :)94.113.101.38 19:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Airport and southern flank?

I know Twitter is no "RS" but Zeina Khodr is an AJE correspondent in place in Sirte. She tweets here that the NTC forces are shelling the airport in an attempt to take control of the southern flank. If she is to believed, the frontline in southern Sirte would need to be corrected on the map. Also here are a lot of precision info (albeit no RS) about control and contested areas in Sirte.--Paracel63 (talk) 12:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Gasr Abu Hadi pocket

Per this, loyalists still hold Gasr Abu Hadi, but have been cut off from the main body in Sirte proper. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I would expect the "cut-off" not really being the case - it is likely there is/are underground connections between the Airport complex (which is huge and was militarily very important) and Sirte proper.94.113.101.38 19:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The "Gulf of Sidra" map should be changed to reflect this as well. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Possible Basis for a Map

I've found one here. This is apparently what the NTC solders are using. I found it searching for a map that would help me understand the situation in Sirte.

I believe the red represents the NTC control areas while the green are areas controlled by SPLAJ. However, the University, Hospital, and "Congressional Hall" are now controlled by the NTC.

As of today, Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley reports only 'Area 2' remaining in pro-G hands. It may take longer to make a map of the whole city just to show this one pocket than it will take for govt forces to take the pocket. Agricolae (talk) 04:28, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

"Sirte only" map

I think it's time to do a "Sirte only" map like the one with Tripoli/Misuratah Can somebody do one? Vectrex 9 October 2011, 12:08 (UTC)