Template talk:Cat see also

Note: This template is also found on English Wikipedia: en:Template:Cat see also.

Unify a format of this template with {{See also}}

Please could somebody unify a format of output of this template with {{See also}}? This template is less distinctive, compared to {{See also}}. --ŠJů (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

 Support. These temlates should be unified! --Kaganer (talk) 07:15, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Yarl ✉ 17:21, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but no space before "{{And}}"... --Kaganer (talk) 18:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Yarl ✉ 19:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Exellent! Thanks! --Kaganer (talk) 13:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Please make a new template {{Cat see also banner}} or {{Cat see also 2}} if you want to have another design. But simply changing a heavily used template completely in its behaviour is not really nice. --Saibo (Δ) 23:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, but I don't see absolutely any reason for making next template with the same purpose. Well, it's heavily used template now, because I changed lots of pages from {{See also}} to {{Cat see also}} and I'm really wondering why people were using {{See also}}... Maybe because {{Cat see also}} looked creepy and definitely not user-friendly compared to {{See also}}? Yarl ✉ 11:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is not the same purpose - for example this can be included in/after a text paragraph without creating a big fat banner (see my userpage, where the banner was completely misplaced). It is just another style. On gallery pages or category pages the banner could be more useful since it is more eye-catching (maybe even a bit too much - but this is a matter of taste). So another template is justified. Sorry for didn't notice this change or the discussion earlier.

Btw: If we had a new template which has a clear usage scope and instructions (e.g. something like this: "Use on category pages on top, on a separate line not within text since the visual/logical appearance of this template is not permanent. This template is used to have a unified look on category pages.") the appearance could be changed to restyle all category pages which use it. But this template here didn't have such a scope. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 12:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Vast majority of usage is the same as {{See also}}, so I think it's better to add |type=slim/noborder/sth else for other usages that require just simple text, without fancy border. Documentation can be, of course, fixed. Yarl ✉ 12:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, if someone volunteers to find all usages (not that easy since some (not really realistic here, I guess) could be - due to template programming - not active currently) which rely on the old no banner version, we can change the default here. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 13:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, there is the problem I discussed farther down concerning the width. Browser compatibility is a problem. I have been working on tables a lot lately, and tables have many browser compatibility problems. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, the latest version (based on divs) worked fine on latest versions of Firefox, Chrome and IE. Yarl ✉ 18:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Great job! And thanks for the banner=no option. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Missing space

A space character between LABEL and the word "category" seems to be missing. --ŠJů (talk) 12:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Should be fixed--DieBuche (talk) 13:03, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

That was my fault, too over-eager to remove execss whitespace. -84user (talk) 19:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed width:100%

width:100%;

I removed it. This new addition breaks the formatting of some pages. For example; Category:Poverty.

If you want to create a multi-category template with width:100% please create a different template.

To see the problem caused by width:100% try previewing Category:Poverty. Try adding {{See also}}

See also: Wealth.

in place of

 See also categories: Wealth, Economic inequality and Social inequality.

You will see that the see-also template with width:100% messes up the formatting.

Somehow the translation table has a 100% width option, but it wraps around other stuff without problems. See: Category:Poverty. It uses Template:Translation table in addition to Template:Cat see also. Maybe you can figure out how Template:Translation table is doing it. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:13, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Check it out now, as far as I see it's ok. Yarl ✉ 18:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts, but it is not working in Internet Explorer. It is working in Firefox. See Category:Architecture. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It is working now. Thanks! The banner=no option is very helpful too. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Could we set this to "banner=no" for category namespace? The new design just covers most of the generally short category description page and makes the reminder more difficult to read. --  Docu  at 13:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean. Could you link to an example category page? --Timeshifter (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It would be for any category. --  Docu  at 05:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

You mean the blue bar by itself? And not how it interacts with right-aligned stuff? What reminder are you talking about? A link to a category page would help me and others see what you are talking about: "makes the reminder more difficult to read". --Timeshifter (talk) 06:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Have a look at Category:Poverty or Category:Media with locations.

The "see also" is larger than the category description itself. --  Docu  at 06:47, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, I see now what you are talking about. It doesn't bother me though. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

An option "banner=yes" might work better for that namespace. --  Docu  at 02:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

bold in no banner ver

Compare:

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Saibo/Sandbox9&uselang=en
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Saibo/Sandbox9&uselang=de
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Saibo/Sandbox9&uselang=fr
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Saibo/Sandbox9&uselang=es

I have a German UI - therefore only saw the latter one - until now (confused by It has been bold since June 2010.). Was it only bold for some languages?! Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 22:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Look at the revision history of the template, and go back to June 19, 2010 where it says "format". That is when it was changed to bold text for "See also categories". --Timeshifter (talk) 20:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, see it - only for English. I guess subsequently other languages were bolded, too. Not sure if I like this bold text - I was used to the non bold text (German interface). ;) Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 21:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Category:Economics is an example of where it looks better bold as See also categories if the no-banner setting is used. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Extra space

{{see also cats|banner=no|Poverty|Economics}}

See also categories: Poverty and Economics..

It looks like there is an extra space. Can someone fix that? --Timeshifter (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is another example:

 See also categories: Economy by continent, Economy by country, Economy of the world and Economic history.

--Timeshifter (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there is a space which has to be removed. This is particularly inesthetic. Please remove it. Thanks. Here is the problem : in French, {{int:Seealso}} produces a space after the words “Voir aussi”. It should not. I think the page MediaWiki:Seealso/fr needs to be corrected. I was going to correct that, but it's locked.

--Nnemo (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Inertia. --Nnemo (talk) 11:38, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

First category is italicized

The first category is italicized in the banner version. See: Category:Economic statistics

Here is an example:

 See also categories: Economy by continent, Economy by country, Economy of the world and Economic history.

Can the first category not be italicized?

Also, can a comma be added between the last two categories? Otherwise, it can look like one category instead of two to someone looking at it quickly. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

After a couple edits I was able to remove the italics from the first category name in the banner version. See this version. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Summary of use

This template supercedes (for people in the know) Template:See also since it allows multiple entries. For example; using the redirect I prefer ("see also cat"):

{{see also cat|Jail|Parole|Probation|Chained people|Correctional population statistics|Incarceration rates‎|Criminal justice statistics}}

It produces:

 See also categories: Jail, Parole, Probation, Chained people, Correctional population statistics, Incarceration rates‎ and Criminal justice statistics.

If you use less entries:

{{see also cat|Jail|Parole|Probation|Chained people}}

It produces this:

 See also categories: Jail, Parole, Probation and Chained people.

The width is no longer a problem because the box wraps around anything floated on the right side of a page. Also, it has an option to turn off the box (banner=no), and only show text:

{{see also cat|banner=no|Jail|Parole|Probation|Chained people}}

It produces this:

See also categories: Jail, Parole, Probation and Chained people.

Template:See also should eventually be redirected to Template:Cat see also.

Or just change it from Template:See also to Template:See also cat by adding "cat" to it whenever you see it. All these below redirect to Template:Cat see also:

{{See also cat}}

{{See also cats}}

{{See also categories}} --Timeshifter (talk) 18:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

LABEL not working. Fixed

Hello,

I've tried to use the LABEL option, but it doesn't seem to work. If I understand correctly, {{cat see also|Example|LABEL="For more details, see"}} should give the text "For more details, see Category:Example", but it doesn't:

 "For more details, see": Example.

. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong? Torsch (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

You might want to ask at User talk:Yarl. He has done some editing on this template, and he is currently active on the Commons. He seems to know what he is talking about. I don't understand complex template coding. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Should be  Done. Yarl ✉ 21:25, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

{{cat see also|Example}}

 See also category: Example.

{{cat see also|Example|LABEL="For more details, see"}}

 "For more details, see": Example.

Great! Thanks, Yarl. It looks like quotes are unnecessary. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:01, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Also thanks by me.Torsch (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Quotation mark

Hello, this template is very useful to me. Unfortunately with the German interface I get a single quotation mark right after the label:

Siehe auch die Kategorien'

I guess that’s an error. Greetings -- Mapmarks (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Latest changes do not really work

template with multiple targets now want to use a template:comma, see Category:Racism. Please fix it ASAP. --Denniss (talk) 23:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Inertia

After more than 2 years, this problem is still present. This shows what locking achieves. --Nnemo (talk) 11:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Shorthand or redirects

It was suggested I move this here. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

How do I add more than one shorthand or redirect? I will ask also at Template talk:TemplateBox.

• {{See also cat}}
• {{See also categories}}
• {{See also cats}}

These all redirect to Template:Cat see also. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Why would you (or whoever asked that question) want to? It's not necessary to know for new users, and experienced users likely now about Special:WhatLinksHere.    FDMS  4    21:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It is not necessary, it is useful. Wikimedia Commons itself is not necessary. As for experienced users, I am one, and I learn helpful shortcuts when they are written in the help page, or doc, never by “what links here”. --Nnemo (talk) 22:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

FDMS, you wrote: "It's not necessary to know for new users". I disagree. Anything that helps new users in using this template is a good thing. And shortcuts help new (and experienced) users in remembering something that will work right away without having to look up the original name of a template. It is hard to look up a template name if you can't remember it. :) And you can't use Special:WhatLinksHere if you can't find the template, or remember the name of the template.

Even if you have the template bookmarked, you may not want to spend time trying to find it in your bookmarks. Especially if you have tens of thousands of bookmarks as I do. Or if you can't remember the correct name of the template.

Is it now possible to add more shortcuts to the documentation page?: Template:Cat see also/doc. I haven't checked the underlying template, Template:TemplateBox, in a long time. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Erm … why not just use {{cat see also}}, or the shortcut {{catseealso}}? Your alternative names are not shortcuts, because they are actually longer and therefore more diffult to type, but unnecessary alternatives. Why, just why would you use {{see also categories}} instead of {{catseealso}}? You can access Special:WhatLinksHere via What links here in the Tools section of your sidebar (on the Template: page).    FDMS  4    02:52, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Why would someone remember {{catseealso}} if they can't remember {{Cat see also}}? Both redirects and shorthand have a long history in template usage here on the Commons. I have over 19,000 edits on the Commons. Template:TemplateBox has "shorthand" to mean both redirects and shorthand. Probably because the original author of the template only wanted to use one word for the field name. So you are probably confused by the field name in the template.

You don't seem to be making an effort to understand other points of view in this thread. This will only cause you endless problems on the Commons and Wikipedia. And you will irritate many other editors. I know where Special:WhatLinksHere is in the sidebar. Are you that clueless that you didn't understand what I and Nnemo wrote in our comments. Please read them again.

There was a different documentation template before Template:TemplateBox. And it had room for more than one redirect. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:15, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I am purposefully not replying to every point (the in this discussion rather irrelevant fact that you have 19.000 edits, your warning of "endless problems", …), but am I right saying that the essential point you are trying to make is that people tend to forget template names? Do you believe there cannot be enough redirects because they might help people for example misspelling them or just trying some out (I'm honestly not kidding, but seriously asking myself that question)? If so, I was probably indeed pretty clueless.    FDMS  4    22:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Rather than wikilawyer when you are wrong, it is better to just admit when you are wrong. I make plenty of mistakes. Feel free to create more redirects. It is only text. Redirect pages take up very few kilobytes on the servers.

Also, these redirects have been in use for years. It is not up to you to change this longstanding policy of using redirects. The problem is with the newer documentation template. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

(unindent). I figured out how to add more than one shorthand redirect to Template:TemplateBox. See example templates, and their documentation pages that use {{TemplateBox}}:

• Template:Cat see also
• Template:Cat see also/doc
• Template:CatDiffuse
• Template:CatDiffuse/doc

--Timeshifter (talk) 07:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Layout

Instead of looking like this: "See also category: Example" it should be "See also Category:Example" to reflect the actual page name. It gives consistency which is a good thing. Alan Liefting (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, the grey background and icon is not really needed. Maybe it should be in italics as is done on Wikipedia. Alan Liefting (talk) 20:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

 Not done, with up to 40 (sic!) categories this would be gross, and besides the one and only "category" is translated, i.e., category:Commons essays works, but Kategorie:Commons essays doesn't (here). –Be..anyone (talk) 12:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Was this comment supposed to be a reply elsewhere? Alan Liefting (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

No the reply is correct for the 1st part of the question. Reread it.

Italics however are a problem with international text (notably in East-Asian scripts where emphasis or sidenotes or footnotes are highly prefering special punctuation, or symbols, or other iconic visual hints.

Even the indentation is a problem if it is not visually hinted (for example with a surrounding box)

Italics are also a problem when the explaination must insert their own italics, for example with transliterations or some borrowed names or phonetics). The italics are a convention just used in Wikipedias written in Latin/Cyrillic/Greek scripts, but they are a lazy solution on international Commons where things should be described in many languages and should be correctly translatable without causing semantic interpretation problems or text-layout problems. If you're not convinced, try looking at Wikipedia in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Khmer... or even Arabic which also requires specific layout and sometimes also specific punctuation

(Also don't assume that a single baseline dot or two dots stacked vertically mean respectively a full stop terminating a sentence, or a colon suffixing an introductory sentence (e.g. the Armenian alphabet and some indic scripts where they will be confused with diacritics or unrelated punctuation) CJK punctuation is also used without any surrounding space (the "space" is in fact part of the CJK punctuation itself to fill a precise position in the standard sinographic square, that position also depending on the horizontal or vertical text-layout, and the punctuation glyph is larger and very different)!

As well, whitespaces have very different pattern of usage in Asian scripts (many don't use any space at all in their standard native orthography: East-Asian and SouthEast Asian scripts, don't use spaces, except the texts written phonetically only with Japanese and Bopomofo syllabaries without sinograms, or written in Korean using only linear Jamos instead of standard syllabic clusters with the Hangul alphabet, even between sentences! Spaces are then used to delimit paragraphs, and insertions of text containing spaces and borrowed from other scripts should be surrounded by specific quotation marks, not italicized). verdy_p (talk) 21:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

punctuation

I think that it would be "more" grammatically correct to use brackets instead of an endash for the for. Example:

See also category: Images of buildings and structures (on the English Wikipedia).

instead of the current

See also category: Images of buildings and structures — on the English Wikipedia.

Do others (dis)agree?    FDMS  4    22:02, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Check the effect for العربية or עברית, it should be automatically (doog), but could end up as )dab(. –Be..anyone (talk) 07:17, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

PAGESINCAT

@Sarang: quick Caveat, PAGESINCAT is listed as expensive. –Be..anyone (talk) 00:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I removed the PAGESINCAT - had been a try; hopefully now better. Thanx for telling me! -- sarang♥사랑 13:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Broken on categories

The template isn't working on category pages at the moment. E.g., on Category:Actors, it's displaying: See also category: [[::Category:Actresses|Actresses]]. Note the extra colon. --ghouston (talk) 01:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I fixed the error. Please inform if it recurs.--Morio (talk) 04:42, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Unnecessary edits

Hello Timeshifter, what's that supposed to be?[1] Only syntax change from one right to another, please stop this nonsense. Even if there would be a recommendation but there is also none. -- User: Perhelion 09:33, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi User: Perhelion. <br> is preferred over <br /> because is it is simpler. And because wikitext is not xml or html. Some people will go around and change all the simpler ones to the more complicated ones if not stopped. So I try to stop it early. Trust me. Some people go crazy over this over many pages, and make things harder for the average editor. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:22, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Timeshifter: I do not contradict that this can generally be replaced (we can assume the simpler form is recommended/preferred. I self created a Phab task to this). I mean in general there should be a minimum reason for an edit. The <br /> is not deprecated. Change only right syntax to a preferred, should be against our edit policy. See also phabricator:T134423#2466410, replacing is not necessary. -- User: Perhelion 16:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Someone tried to change <br> to <br /> in many places on en:Help:Sorting. I reverted them, and was thanked for it right away. Because we want to make things simpler for table editors, not more complicated. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Easy to overlook

I frequently come across categories with similar content where this template is very useful but also easily overlooked as the layout is quite inconspicuous. The text seems to fade into the grayish background a little and the gray bar itself appears to be a frame or design element rather than a notice.

Instead of

 See also category: Door sills.

a simple formatting like

See also Category:Door sills

is actually more obvious to the cursory reader.

I would suggest to maybe make the category name bold and lighten the background color of the template.

best regards, KaiKemmann (talk) 21:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Serial comma

Please edit this to use a serial comma when there are three or more entries, to avoid hard-to-parse results like:

See also categories: Kilt-skirts, Women wearing kilts and Kilts.

and instead output:

See also categories: Kilt-skirts, Women wearing kilts, and Kilts.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

en:Serial comma. I agree. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)