Hmains

AutoWikiBrowser access

Hi, Hmains. I just gave you AutoWikiBrowser access. Sorry for delay. Taivo (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Autopatrol given

Hello. I just wanted to let you know that I have granted autopatrol rights to your account; the reason for this is that I believe you are sufficiently trustworthy and experienced to have your contributions automatically marked as "reviewed". This has no effect on your editing, it is simply intended to make it easier for users that are monitoring Recent changes or Recent uploads to find unproductive edits amidst the productive ones like yours. In addition, the Flickr upload feature and an increased number of batch-uploads in UploadWizard, uploading of freely licensed MP3 files, overwriting files uploaded by others and an increased limit for page renames per minute are now available to you. Thank you. --4nn1l2 (talk) 07:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Landscapes and Geography

Hi Hmains, you've added "Geography" categories to some "Landscapes" categories. Please note that there is some confusion as to what "Landscapes" stands for. According to the description and categorization in Category:Landscapes, this is not really a "Geography" topic. Geographical entities can be found in Category:Regions. Adding the "Geography" cat to the landscape views may add to the confusion. Regards, --Sitacuisses (talk) 12:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for the note. What I found was that many country landscape categories were already children of their geography categories and Category:Landscapes by country was a child of Category:Geography by country, so I proceeded to make things uniform by adding the remaining country geography categories as parents. Whether the whole scheme is right or wrong I don't know. I suppose for navigation purposes various editors found that Geography to Landscapes was a good path. I do find Category:Landscapes narrative to be particularly unhelpful in saying this "Geographical entities can be found in Category:Regions" Of course, regions are only one subcat of the entire topic of Category:Geography in Commons and the real world. Hmains (talk) 16:45, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

The main cat Category:Landscapes doesn't seem to be part of the Geography tree. Unfortunately, we still have some regions where the Landscapes tree is being used to categorize regions, in defiance of the description in Category:Landscapes; e.g. Category:Landscapes of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (in German, "Landschaft" and "Region" are synonyms). Ideally, each Landscape category would have a description that mirrors the one in Category:Landscapes, especially if it has been added to the Geography tree. --Sitacuisses (talk) 22:40, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

It might help. Hmains (talk) 03:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Metacategory names

I think you are naming some of your new metacategories incorrectly. For example, Category:Mountains by continent by dependent territory should be named Category:Mountains by dependent territory by continent. The part that is variable in the subcategory names goes last, with a corresponding change in the order of the metacat template parameters. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:46, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'll try that. Thanks Hmains (talk) 02:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

AWB advice

Under options, there is an option for "Do not use edit section summaries." If you turn that on, you won't be posting "top" for each edit. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I did not know. Now set up as indicated. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 19:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

File:Conheça Goa, o estado indiano com idioma português.webm

Pay attention to the title of the video: "Get to know Goa, the Portuguese-speaking Indian state" Category:Road signs in Goa is clearly not the right category. Perfektsionist (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I now see it. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation for villages in West Bengal

Hi, I have noticed that you are changing the name of the categories of some of the villages. I think, that wont be necessary for now as there are lots of villages with the same name and it would make it very difficult for me to categorize the future images coming from those villages as it would lead to lots of duplication of works. There are plans to get photographs from those villages in future, so please keep the categories as it is now at least for villages located in West Bengal. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 06:06, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

• thanks. I will not change any other names in these West Bengal villages Hmains (talk) 06:16, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding. I am reverting latest of such edits on Commons and Wikidata. By the way, it is totally fine to keep sub-categorizing populated places as per villages, so no need to stop that part. :-) -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 06:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I have just created a navigation template for districts of West Bengal. You can use that while working on villages or other areas of West Bengal on Commons. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 07:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

ok, thanks Hmains (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Category:Buildings_in_Antigua_and_Barbuda_by_function

Buildings in Antigua and Barbuda by function has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Loranchet (talk) 14:33, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Rotation requests

Dear Hmains, you requested a 35° rotation for File:Basilica from the side.jpg. You may test yourself using this link https://croptool.toolforge.org/?title=Basilica_from_the_side.jpg If the image is rotated by 35° so much content is lost that the resulting image is nearly useless.

Same for File:MiniaturTeil7x4cmSDIM2006.jpg, File:Sea shore 4.jpg, File:Shantadurga Fatorpa 1.JPG, File:Shantadurga Fatorpa 2.JPG, File:Udaipur Mural (5580916197).jpg, and File:Zor.JPG

Is it OK for you when I remove your requests? --Sebastian Wallroth (talk) 06:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

ok course, do as you think is best. Sometimes, I cannot fully tell what the result will be using just the tiny image provided on the rotation page. Thanks for all. Hmains (talk) 16:49, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Category:Julto_Pul_Hanging_Bridge

Julto Pul Hanging Bridge has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Renaming request of Category:Julto Pul Hanging Bridge

Hello.

Can you rename Category:Julto Pul Hanging Bridge to Category:Morbi Hanging Bridge?

In Gujarati, Julto Pul means "hanging bridge" and the name as it stands makes no sense. That is why the category should be named according to bridges location in the city of Morbi.

Yours sincerely, Multituberculata (talk) 06:53, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand your concern and help. However, once a category is nominated for discussion, I understand that no one is supposed to change the category until the discussion is concluded. I don't know what the process is for getting to a conclusion. Sorry Hmains (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. I understand. So it means, it is going to take a while, before a decision about it is made. Multituberculata (talk) 07:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Category:Wikimedia Movement Strategy 2030, Hindi Community Salon, Bhopal September 2017

Why did you remove this from Category:Events in Bhopal and Category:2017 in Bhopal? They both seem accurate. Wasn't the event in September 2017 in Bhopal? Ricky81682 (talk) 07:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

In general, wiki internals are not placed in main space. I have never found more than few wiki items (meeting/conferences/education) in main space. Such 'events' are not of the same order as a city or temple festival, for example. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Thanks for your tireless categorization work on India-related topics! Utcursch (talk) 08:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome. Hmains (talk) 20:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Category change

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_Minor_Outlying_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Minor_Outlying_Islands Both need the category "Dependent territories in North America" changing to "Dependent territories in the Caribbean" due to Navassa Island being in the Caribbean.TBAG654321 (talk) 22:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

One more category

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Minor_Outlying_Islands "Dependent territories in North America" changing to "Dependent territories in the Caribbean"TBAG654321 (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Request

Vailankanni

Hi, I just seen you renamed Vailankanni to Velankanni. I would like to draw your attention to the official sites of the shrine.

http://www.vailankannishrine.net/

Also some of the images I have clicked at the location with the name. File:Shrine basilica vailankanni.jpg.

Please review your moves. Thanks. --✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 08:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

--- I will fix the shrine name Hmains (talk) 20:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

CfD notification

Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/12/Category:Cobblers; you edited the related Category:Cobblers' shops. - Jmabel ! talk 05:01, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

How to ask for speedy-delete of an empty category

When you want to ask for speedy-delete of an empty category, best practice is to mark it with {{SD|C2}} if it would be OK to re-create it in the future, given that appropriate content becomes available or {{SD|C1}} if it is an inappropriate category name that should not be reused. In particular, this is better practice than just blanking the category page, as you did at Category:Anchetti taluk. ("C1" and "C2" come from Commons:Criteria for speedy deletion). Jmabel ! talk 21:13, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

ok, thanks Hmains (talk) 06:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Making sub cats into redirects

Why this edit? The mosque pictures are of the Alambagh Palace Mosque. The modern name of Shahi Masjid, Alambagh is not supported by any modern pix and is no longer associated with the fort. I made both cats, in an effort to return the Alambagh Palace Mosque to prominence since the government of India wants to actively erase Raj history. I notice you've changed other cats where there are similar decisions I made on similar topics recently. There are seperate cats for London Bridge, and old London Bridge! Regards. - Broichmore (talk) 11:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Broichmore: Sorry, I know nothing about the politics of names and erasing history is never a good idea--usually the policy of evil people. Understanding history and not allowing it to control current things is much the better goal. In any case, I just try to organize pics into categories for navigation as best as I can using whatever little information that I find available. Are there instructions somewhere on how Commons wants to handle colonial/current/whatever names so the reader will know it is same object? Anything would help here. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 23:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Only that, say London Bridge for example has two cats, like I said there is a clear dividing line from the old Bridge to the new. In this case, one is a replacement for the other. They have the same name and site, but are different buildings.

This mosque was built for a military fort; the modern day mosque, may be the same building, heavily modified. It's name was changed and its history ignored, and erased. Even its own parishioners know nothing of its history, it was lost. There was also a change of use, the former was for military personnel, the latter is for general use? Any way the histories, if nothing else are radically different. Its permissible in this case to make a cat for its old name, rather than create a new cat of say History of Shahi Masjid, Alambagh. Again in this case Category:Alambagh Palace Mosque is a sub cat of British India as well as a sub cat of Shahi Masjid, Alambagh which in turn has nothing to do British India. It's a judgement call, the original creator had several options and chose to make it the cat the old name, leaving the option for a new cat with the new name. It's a question of taking into account what the original uploader was attempting to do, respect, etc.

I'm going to have to revisit what you've been doing with my Indian cats. India is a fraught issue, outside of Russia, and few other places we don’t normally see this kind of successful revisionism, and cancellation, which make research very difficult. Naming items according to the epoch seems to be appropriate.

I would tread a little carefully, on issues like this without applying consensus. I'm not sayimg that your entirely wrong. Just be a little cautious. Regards. -Broichmore (talk) 12:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Darul Uloom Waqf Deoband

I have reverted your undiscussed move of this category. We don't seriously care for real names. The common name for this seminary is "Darul Uloom Waqf Deoband" and it should stay as is. Best regards, ─ Aafī (talk) 06:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

"Forest paths"

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Seattle_-_Mt._Baker_Park_02.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=901005757: really? It's in a moderately-sized city park. There's a pizza place, a clothing store and a community center about 100 meters away, houses closer, and swings and restrooms even closer. Usually to me "forest" implies that you are at least in something a bit more remote than that. - Jmabel ! talk 15:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• I undid my edit. Thanks Hmains (talk) 18:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Census-designated places

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Census-designated_places_in_New_Hampshire&diff=prev&oldid=902361833: what would be an example of a census-designated place that is not an unincorporated community? - Jmabel ! talk 19:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• from EN Wikipedia "Census-designated place" article, I saw that a census-designated place may be any geographic overlay and it may be entirely within an incorporated place (an incorporated place may have many census-designated places within it), a census-designated place may include a combination of incorporated and non-incorporated places, and so on. I think we should match what the census department actually does; anything else would be confusing to readers. Thanks Hmains (talk) 23:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Probably they all are within an incorporated place, because counties in most states are incorporated entities, and the few places in New England where they are not, townships function more like counties elsewhere. Still, that same could be said of all unincorporated communities. As far as I can tell, a census-designated place always identifies a community, and never one that is, itself, incorporated, which pretty adds up to "unincorprorated community."
  • I don't know New Hampshire well enough to give examples from New Hampshire, but I see that you made a similar edit for Washington state, where I live. When I look at Category:Census-designated places in Washington (state), the 50% or so that I'm familiar with are all places that locals would identify as communities. Most of them would have "welcome" signs when you come in on any main road. Some of them (e.g. Belfair, Humptulips, Moclips, Spanaway) are even fairly well known places.
  • Was there some sort of consensus to make this change or was it just your own decision as one person? - Jmabel ! talk 18:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Just me. I never before heard of counties being considered a 'community' in any sense. Counties in the US are sub-entities of states covering all the land within a state while populated places are where people live and include cities, towns, villages--never counties which of course include populated places, whether incorporated or not. Census-designated places on the other hand are a federal government Census bureau overlay artifacts and have no legal standing and no necessary relation to state boundaries of any kind. They are simply for census statistics, though sometimes local people adopt the names for their own additional purposes. Any given place can be an unincorporated community, a census-designated place, neither or both. Hmains (talk) 00:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I see that your continuing with the edits. I have to agree with @Jmabel: here. Wikipedia is by no means an authoritative source for how we categorize things and big changes like this really shouldn't be done without prior discussion or consensus. So I'm asking you to stop doing it until that happens. There's no reason you can't start a CfD or discuss it on the Village Pump and then resume the edits one there's agreement in either one about it. Your edits are leading to a bunch of empty categories like Category:Towns in Siskiyou County, California that are either going to just stay that way or get deleted when they really shouldn't be though. So this whole thing is rather disruptive. Again, especially considering your doing it without prior discussion. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is all very confusing to me. I don't think we editors are supposed to leave things around when they are knowably wrong; aren't we expected to fix things. I also don't understand the problem that empty/deleted categories create when there is no content that goes into category. I don't try to empty categories, that is just the result of other edits, based the facts I find. Are there images in Commons for towns in Siskiyou county? I cannot find any, but maybe you can. Thanks Hmains (talk) 03:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

California abolished townships in the 1870s, so Category:Towns in Siskiyou County, California doesn't make much sense, and should probably be deleted. I'd imagine the only relevance of townships in California would be for certain 19th-century historical topics. - Jmabel ! talk 03:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: I don't want to argue about this since it's super pedantic to begin with but people who live in Siskiyou County certainly McCloud to be a town even if the official government designation doesn't exist anymore. See this website for McCloud Hotel as one example "At just over 3,000 feet in elevation, the town of McCloud, California is surrounded by large stands of Ponderosa pine, Douglas fir, incense cedar and other coniferous trees. These forests provided timber for the McCloud River Lumber Company, the original owner of the lumber mill. The Lumber Company owned the entire town of McCloud including the McCloud Hotel."

There's plenty of other examples out there. Including my own personal experience as someone who grew up in the area and camped around there pretty regularly as a kid. Screw what locals call a place just because of a change to the legal definition though. Aren't you always saying categories shouldn't be 100% representative of real life or whatever anyway? There's no reason the category for McCloud and similar places can't be in both a category for the legal definition and the colloquial term. No one looks for local places by using the terms "unincorporated community" or "Census-designated place." --Adamant1 (talk) 03:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there have been quite a few discussions about having our categories keep terms like "town" in the U.S. to their legal meaning. It gets very confusing if we go by informal colloquial usage on something that in most states has a formal legal meaning. - Jmabel ! talk 03:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

(I have no problem with referring to McCloud as a "former company town", and even categorizing it additionally in terms of the concept of a "company town".) - Jmabel ! talk 03:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I think you could make an expectation for places in California that were historical and still are refered to as towns though. I have no problem with not doing it that way for places in New York where no one calls the place a town anymore, but categories are supposed to be based on the most commonly used name in the English language. No one in Siskiyou County says "I'm going to unincorporated community to get a loaf of bread." If we were sticking a purely legal definition for things a lot of categories would be totally wrong and/or pointless. We already don't go with the legal definition in a lot of cases and based on the region. So I don't really see what the difference is here. I wouldn't suggest doing it more broadly outside of where it's clearly justified because of tradition or whatever though. I'm properly fine with "former company town" or whatever, but is there even a category structure for that? --Adamant1 (talk) 03:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't say counties were communities. I said they were "incorporated places", the phrase you used and to which I was responding. - Jmabel ! talk 03:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I meant to write 'county' and counties are not 'incorporated places' of any kind. They don't have a charter that makes them a 'corporation', as cities and incorporated towns have. California has incorporated towns with images Category:Incorporated towns in California--not many.Hmains (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is your thing. Are you OK with categorizing places under "former company towns" or whatever going forward instead of just losing the information? I'm cool with that if you are. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• @Hmains: Simple yes or no. I'd like to put the category for McCloud and a few other places in a category for former company towns but I'm not going to waste my time on it if your just going to remove the categories like you did with Category:Towns in Siskiyou County, California, which is still empty BTW. So you should either nominate it for deletion or put something in it if your not going to. I'd like an answer to my question though. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It was not my idea to use the category company towns; that idea came from Jmabel, so maybe he would want to examine this. By the way, I did not see what company built Mccloud. Company towns are those that are built by some company or another to house and control their workers. And the categories for company towns seem to include a sub-category for the company itself. Also, there is no existing category structure in Commons for 'former company towns', just one for company towns. Hmains (talk) 04:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It was not my idea to use the category company towns; that idea came from Jmabel OK. But your the one altering categories for places in California to begin with. He has nothing to do with that area outside commenting on it. So maybe it wasn't your idea, but you'd be the one removing the category if you don't think it's valid just like with Category:Towns in Siskiyou County, California and I'd like there to be some agreement about it before I start creating categories or moving things around.

I did not see what company built McCloud. McCloud River Lumber Company. I actually have some stuff related to it that I already planned on uploading at some point, but it doesn't seem to have a category or any media related to it on here at this point. I don't think it's a requirement that the town be in a sub-category for the company though. I haven't looked into that much, but Category:Company towns seems to include categories for former company towns. So now that I think of it maybe the "former" isn't really necessary and I can just side step this whole thing by putting the category in Category:Company towns in California and calling it good there. It seems weird to have a category for "company towns" in California (former or otherwise) if there's no categories for "towns" in the state to begin with though. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

looking around the categories for 'company towns', there does not seem to be a tight relationship between 'company town' and town. A company town might actually be a village, unincorporated community, or an incorporated entity of some kind if it did not involve a company. The key concept seems to be that a company created/controlled it. Category:Towns in California exists with its subcat of Category:Company towns in California, which has existed since 2017. Thanks Hmains (talk) 05:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that a "company town" is not necessarily a "town". I'd support getting rid of Category:Towns in California. That is not a type of entity that exists in California, and hasn't in about 150 years. Upmerge subcats as relevant.

But back on my original point, before Adamant1 took this elsewhere: what would be an example of a Census-designated place that is not an unincorporated community? - Jmabel ! talk 05:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

After looking around further and re-reading the Wikipedia are on Census-designated place, I agree that a Census-designated place is always an unincorporated community, as it lacks a corporate charter from the State in which exists and is just a statistical artifact used by the U.S. census bureau to organize its population counts for low population areas of the country. Hmains (talk) 18:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Hmains: Thanks. Do you plan to put this back together in terms of category inheritance? - Jmabel ! talk 00:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I can add the unincorporated community category as a parent to each census-designated place category, regardless whether they previously had it or not. OK? thanks Hmains (talk) 00:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, glad we ended up on the same page, so to speak. - Jmabel ! talk 02:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

McCloud, California

Hi. Do you happen to know what the standard for a city versus a town versus a census-designated place versus an unincorporated community is on here besides the title of a Wikidata entry? Adamant1 (talk) 02:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Hi. I don't know, I personally don't depend on much that is in Wikidata. It does not seem to be well maintained. When I have confirmed that fact, using Wikipedia or public sources, I do update Wikidata to reflect those facts. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 02:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't ask what your source is, I asked what standard your using to justify the edits. So are you saying that you have no idea what makes something a town, census-designated place Etc. and that your just winging it based on Wikipedia? Regardless, See my comment above this. You removed Category:McCloud, California from Category:Towns in Siskiyou County, California when that's what it is. It seems like you've done in that for a lot of places in California when removing the categories is clearly wrong.

Not that I think Wikipedia is an authority, but per Census-designated place "CDPs include small rural communities, edge cities, colonies located along the Mexico–United States border, and unincorporated resort and retirement communities and their environs." Further "The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status[1] and may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name." So it's not a simple thing of saying "well, the government calls this a census-designated place. So that means it must not be a town." They aren't mutually exclusively, it usually depends on local conventions, and your just creating a ton of redundancy here while removing legitimate categories in the meantime. I'll just repeat my prior comment and leave it there, but you really stop edits until you discuss it somewhere. Otherwise this whole is just disruptive. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I find 'just winging it' insulting and uncalled for. Lacking other reliable documented sources, it is very common to use Wikipedia to obtain documented facts to guide categorization in Commons. Where are the facts, for example, that McCloud, California is anything other than an unincorporated community? Is Commons categorization (and thus navigation) to depend on what someone may just think/feel/want about a person/place/thing? Thanks Hmains (talk) 03:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

See my comment on "towns" in California in the previous section. At least legally, there is no such thing. - Jmabel ! talk 03:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

See my reply. They aren't mutually exclusive to begin with, but people still refer to places as "towns" in California regardless of the legal definition. Plenty of people call McCloud a "town." Screw them "because the law" apparently though. Since when do we base category names on the law anyway? --Adamant1 (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)