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Im glad I could help with identification, just upload those photos Im sure someone will identify those, names can always be fixed afterwards. Merry Christmas also --Typ932 (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
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Alvis TE 2 Graber SuperEdit
Hi Akela NDE, thanks for the new Alvis Graber images. I've been trying to sort out the slightly muddled heap of Alvis images and I would like to reclassify, I mean recategorise, your images so that they appeared individually under: Swiss Classic British Car Meet (as now), Category:Alvis Te21 (instead of a separate category for the one car) and Hermann Graber (at present only in bulk or en bloc). Would you mind if I made that change? How would that fit with what you would like? I have done that for just the one image so you can see what I mean. regards, Eddaido (talk) 06:06, 10 October 2013 (UTC) (Pasted from User talk Eddaido) Hi Eddaido,
thanks for your message about the Alvis TE2 "Graber Super". I'm far from being an Alvis specialist, so if you really think that's better, then you should probably do it Anyway, I put it in a separate category for 2 reasons:
- it was marked a TE2, not a TE21. Maybe that was only an error of the owner who wrote the identification card.
- it looks clearly different than the others TE21's, especially regarding the wide radiator grille, front lights (guys in Morges told me they were from a Facel-Vega), boot with no handle, etc.
As I'm understanding things, Alvis chassis were bodied by various coachbuilders (I'll soon upload 2 TE21's I saw in Morges, a Park-Ward bodied coupé and a convertible whose coachbuilder I'm not sure, but I think it was Graber too. It has different front lights than the other ones, but if you can help me identify it …). I know for having seen it on last years' Morges' TC 108 Graber identification card that Graber had made various different bodies for Alvis chassis of the same kind (apparently there were not 2 similar TC 108 G's), so I suppose it may be the same for the TE21, or at least some of them.
So, I suppose it would be a good idea to have separate categories for cars with such special bodies, especially if there are several pictures of them. So we could have Category:Alvis TE21, with subcategories Category:Alvis TE21 by Graber and Category:Alvis TE21 by Park-Ward, and Category:Alvis TE 2 Graber Super as well if it's established it's only a particular version of the TE21, and not a different car. What do you think of it ?
Cheers, Akela NDE (talk) 10:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- This is my take on events, please understand I am not laying down a system of recognised historic facts. I've arranged reference books which I should go and collect.
- 1.Graber made beautiful very well finished very luxurious bodies, they put bodies on Bentleys, Lagondas and Alvises and . . . others. Indeed English cars were very popular in Switzerland in the 1940s and 50s. Alvis, it seems, still had a racy aura round the sanatoria.
- 2. Alvis seemed to prefer making big money out of defence contracts and then maybe making a few cars (as if a sideline). Eventually their car offering became an acute embarrassment. A speedy solution to a very urgent problem ( read this) was to gear up Graber and sell cars with their body as the now standard Alvis. This was the Alvis TC 108 Graber and Very expensive it was with all that duty on an import from Switzerland - no Common Market or even EFTA?.
- 3 Because the Graber car was a great looker it got attention but not enough sales at such a high price and so instead Alvis got the same body made in England by various parties finally settling on Park Ward.
- 4. Graber went on making the same bodies and putting them on Alvises (and other cars) and there is every reason why your car should be a TE2 Graber on a TE21 Alvis chassis because it is not a stock Alvis, it iis pehaps being described as a stock Alvis TE 21 chassis with a TE 2 Graber body - does that make sense? Yes Graber did use bits from other cars like Rolls-Royce tail lights etc and why not Facel Vega too.
- 5. With 1930s and 1940s and early 50's Bentley there were many coachbuilders. With Alvis there were only the two of any real consequence once they threw away the TC 21 body and they were Graber and Park Ward.
- If you don't mind I would rather we had no sub-categories for Alvis coachbuilders but just put the Alvises in their own Alvis categories and their bodies when non-standard under the coachbuilders' names. Would that be OK? I don;t mind discussing it further.
- In any case with the Alvis type of car it is always important to learn the coachbuilder if at all possible. I look forward to seeing your new images, I've admired quite a number in the recent past. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:09, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for that pretty clear answer So I will upload the other Alvises in, say, the TE21 category for the first one, and just Alvis Cars for the one I'm not sure of (I sutpidely forgot to take a picture of its identification card) ; you or another Alvis specialist may be able to decide whether it's a TE21, TF21 or other, by the normal coachbuilder or by a custom one.
- Concerning the TE2 Graber Super, as it's apparently a custom body on a standard chassis, I still think it should be in a category of its own: a car is made of chassis and body, so if it doesn't have a standard TE21 body, it's not a normal TE21, but a particular version of a TE21 - hence a specific subcategory of the TE21 cat' for the pictures of it. But, once again, that's only my opinion, cause I'd hate people to spot a picture of the Graber special and imagine its features were standard to all TE21. So, if you think it's better to put it in the "normal" TE21 category, feel free. I'm totally ready to admit I'm a fanatic of divisions in subcategories of subcategories
- Oh and thanks for your compliments on my pictures, too. I'm trying to do my best with limited talent and, unfortunately, a poor camera. But it's really nice to see people like them!
- Cheers, Akela NDE (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- Its clear you see a conflict which I don't. I guess its because what was normal is now exceptionally rare, maybe now only historic.
- You suggest a reader might go to this page and (if my thoughts were acted upon) find six images of your one car and six images of examples of a slightly different shaped car with a different radiator grille. --> reader is now confused but sees a link to WP which might (soon) explain and takes that easy way out.
- I suppose because it is today such an outdated concept whoever wrote up the TE21 for WP omitted to mention that the chassis was still made available to (any?) coachbuilders and that Graber, at this moment only noted as "Stylists" of the standard model, continued to produce their own version. That needs to be fixed and perhaps one of your nice Graber at Morges images displayed beside it.
- Alvis cars really died with WWII. After that they continued their 12/70 calling it a fourteen then added a couple of cylinders to make a 3-litre engine and put that into the same chassis with only slightly modified bodywork so that by 1955 they were still offering a 1937 quality of car (without nave plates over the wire wheels). I think we should keep the post 1955 cars consistent with the prewar cars. To do as you suggest, treating the Graber TE2 as a distinct model would mean that to be consistent we would have to split all the prewar models by their different coachbuilders and it isn't practical because we do not have certain knowledge of a coachbuilder's name in each case.
- You with your concerns are a shining example of a photographer who finds out these things!
- To my mind, if a reader notices that there are two slightly different shapes of car in the category and looks around the explanation will be quickly found.
- Why can I find no photo of a Citroen Picasso? regards, Eddaido (talk) 22:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hello again,
- I'm sorry if I made you think I saw a conflict there: I see none. We apparently have different opinions on how to organize pictures categories of cars who share the same chassis and engines, but have different bodyworks: I don't think that's really important. it's only that, to me, the bodywork is part of a car's identity. But I definitely have no problems with anyone not sharing that opinion.
- I thought keeping the TE2 Graber pictures in a category that would itself be part of the TE21 category would have been a good compromise, but if you are definitely sure these pictures have to belong directly to the TE21 category, that's fine by me. You can move them following your idea: you're the guy organizing the Alvis car categories, I'm only the guy who came to spot some Alvises while I had my camera.
- Thanks for the bit of Alvis history, seriously. But don't worry, I'm not a photographer, just a classic cars enthusiast who likes to share his passion . Oh, and for the Citroën Picasso, look here and there !
- Cheers, Akela NDE (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the Picasso pics, the Commons search function must have been having a rest, would only bring up references to police vehicles. But I do agree with you, the body is a major part of the car's identity it is just that under the particular circumstances of Alvis and Graber I don't think the Graber body should be listed as if it were a Factory option - except for the brief period when it was (in theory) the only available Alvis - the TC 108 G.
- My concern has been that so many (I am grateful to them for their images) contributors catalogue with originality arrm maybe I mean casualness we can end up with a deep litter of subcategories all about, many of them duplications of each other. So I am resisting sub-sub-sub-sub-categories on old cars just as much as I can. However, Compromises Can be made.
- OK, I'll change things to suit me but please do not regard the subject as closed. Re-start it whenever you want. With kind regards, Eddaido (talk) 00:40, 11 October 2013 (UTC)