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English: Welcome to the Commons, Iain Bell!
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Block move of Category:LMS Stanier Class 5 4-6-0 44806 et alEdit

The name as it stands is obviously "inconsistent", but it does have a couple of advantages:

  • Its unambiguous against a hypothetical GWR 4800 class "4806" etc., the issue that required BR's renumbering in the first place. This is at least useful for photographers searching under numbers, for one thing, especially if they're unaware of classes.

I'm not sure what the best way forward is here. I wouldn't want to achieve a trivial consistency at the cost of even more confusion between the regions. The LMS name / BR number inconsistency is very minor and (should be) consistent across all affected images, so users can at least work with it.

As this affects WP, it really needs to be raised on the relevant project there, not just at Commons.

On a similar subject, I'd also like to see the current "Foo class" "Foo Class" and "Class Foo" cat names made similarly uniform. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:59, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Horwich or GuinnessEdit

File:Horwich 18 inch gauge 0-4-0.png is described as a "Horwich 18" gauge" loco, yet AFAIK this is one of the Guinness brewery locos and all of the eight(?) locos used at Horwich were like the preserved Wren and Dot, with conventional low-mounted cylinders. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


Category discussion notification Category:Industrial_locomotives_of_Britain has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category.
In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

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ŠJů (talk) 12:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting the trainsEdit

Hi Iain Bell, I see you you're sorting out Category:Unidentified trains. Thanks for the help! My bot just finished uploading 1003 (out of 1058) photos of Drew Jacksich. I hope you like that I transfered his photos to Commons :-) Multichill (talk) 14:49, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

So it's you I have to thank for giving me all this work :)
There are some nice photographs in the batch — some of them quite historic. Pity Drew didn't at add more infomation to his Flickr uploads, like location and date. Ah well, at least their cc-by-sa.
Nice work finding and uploading these. Thank you. — Iain Bell (talk) 15:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
The bot made no distinction between trams and trains so I moved a lot of the pictures to Category:Unidentified trams. I think most of them are of US locations, but I am no expert.Smiley.toerist (talk) 14:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Well I have discovered that Drew has posted several of these train and tram/streetcar photographs to and to the disscusion list, both of which have better descriptions. — Iain Bell (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Category:Steam locomotives of RussiaEdit


The subcategories of "Category:Steam locomotives of Russia" contains many categories with cyrillic letters. In some of the old" category histories" I have seen that you have requested the move of theme from a "latin letter version" to this recent "kyrillic and latin mixed version". According to the Commons naming and language policy categories must be in English - so do these categories as well. Following this policy I will remove them back. My question to you since you have a good knowledge about rail topics: do you suggest any category names or some good category structure? Greetings, High Contrast (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The with problem with the old category names is that ignore the fact that the real classes used the Cyrillic alphabet. In trying to map Cyrillic letters to Latin letters, things become very messy. Add to that, that the locomotives carry the class name as a prefix in Cyrillic, naturally. Even if you don’t know the Cyrillic alphabet, you only have to match the shape of the character to get it in the correct category (it’s easier if you use HotCat...).
Getting people to put a locomotive marked with what looks like ‘CO’ into a category called ‘SO’ could be considered counter-intuitive. The only thing I managed to change were the steam locomotives; the diesel and electric locomotives I didn’t get around to proposing.
As for category names, I feel that they should start “Soviet locomotive class …” for anything introduced between the October Revolution and the break-up of the USSR, and “Russian locomotive class …” for everything else. The “Soviet locomotives” tree probably needs to be created.
Hope this helps. Iain Bell (talk) 16:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for my late reply. Well per COM:LP, category names like these must translated into English. And you seem to have an above average knowledge about how these locomotives must be named and you do have experiences with Commons. Only the categories with cyrillic letters should be moved. Can you please {{move|Cagegory:Soviet locomotive class XYZ}}insert in the categories in question? Of course with the correct letters. Would be great to have your help here. Regards, High Contrast (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

" Well per COM:LP, category names like these must translated into English."
COM:LP actually says "should generally", not must. RFC 2119 is also worth remembering for the distinction. This is IMHO a case where Cyrillic is appropriate, perhaps with an English language category redirect to it too.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy Dingley (talk • contribs)
No, this "should generally" is an exception for proper nouns (e.g. Category:Oktoberfest or Category:Musée Maritime de La Rochelle). Not for cyrillic letters. There is no basis for this on Commons. Redirect: possible, but the other way round: redirect to the English name. Wanna help, Iain? --High Contrast (talk) 15:58, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I feel that using cyrillic letters is the correct method. The proper noun exception is a good fit. After all, you can’t translate the 7th letter of the alphabet – you can transliterate it – but that is different. On en.wp, the Greek locomotive classes use the Greek alphabet, and no one has complained. If you were to try to translate “SEK Class Λβ” then “SEK Class Lamda-beta” would be better than “SEK class Lb” (which I think is total nonsense). Where should “Soviet locomotive class ИС” go? “I-Es”? “IS”? or “JS”? Remember it was named after Joseph Stalin.
No. It’s better left as it is using cyrillic letters. We shouldn’t be trying to translate the untranslatable. Iain Bell (talk) 16:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood some parts. This is basically no matter of discussion but regulations on Commons. Here and here was it done correctly. The moval of all entrys of Category:Steam locomotives of Russia was incorrect (against Commons regulations) and was proposed by a not very experienced user. Anyway. Thank you for your efforts. Regards, High Contrast (talk) 16:45, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Train liveriesEdit

There's a developing discussion on my talk page about an additional layer of categorization for US freight locomotives and I'd appreciate your input. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 21:04, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Thanks for the categories. I didn't know how to categorize it besides just locomotive. I appreciate it. --Mjrmtg (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You’re welcome. — Iain Bell (talk) 11:17, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Need your input!Edit

Hi! You tagged a bunch of categories for renaming. I put at least some on hold for now. Here's my 2 cents: (from Delinker/commands)


  • {{move cat|Nord 4.1201 – 4.1272|Nord 4.1201 – 4.1272 → SNCF 2-141.TC}}
  • {{move cat|SNCF Class PLM 262 AD 1|PLM 262.AD.1 → SNCF 262.DA.1}}
  • {{move cat|SNCF Class BB 60011|PLM 4.AMD.1 → SNCF 040.DB.1 → SNCF BB 60011}}
  • {{move cat|SNCF Class 4 BMD 1|PLM 4.BMD.1 → SNCF 040.DA.1}}
  • {{move cat|SNCF Class BB 60021|PLM 4.CMD.1 → SNCF 040.DC.1 → SNCF BB 60021}}
  • {{move cat|SNCF Class BB 60031-60033|PLM 4.DMD → SNCF 040.DM → SNCF BB 60031–60033|as per uncontested move request on talk pages. [[User:Iain Bell|Iain Bell]] ([[User talk:Iain Bell|<span class="signature-talk">talk</span>]]) 12:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)}}
Contested (for now) :) Is there conses to name categories in a way that nobody can manually enter or even remember? Wouldn't a category redirect solve the problem better?

Has there been a discussion anywhere? I don't want the rail fans to hit us over the head.   Your 2 cents much appreciated! --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 23:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

What we have is the SNCF reclassifying the locomotives of its five constituents, each of which had their own classification system. What I am trying to achieve is something like Category:London and North Eastern Railway steam locomotives but without the “/” to avoid the problem of subpages being activated during an software upgrade [don’t laugh, it has happened…]. The parallel with the (British) London and North Eastern Railway is valid, since each of its six constituents has its own category, the entries for which should be in an understandable sort-order. Therefore a “dual name” is required.
Category redirects can solve the “how to type” and “what was it called” problems, but as there is no consensus for soft redirects ({{Category redirect}}) to be in the main category tree, and no consensus for the use of hard redirects (#REDIRECT) at all, so we are back to my proposal.
As for the “untypeable” characters, all of them first occur beyond the point of ambiguity, that is, if you type it in to the search box or Hot-Cat, by the time you get to the first “→” you only have one entry left. If you use TextExpander of TypeIt4me on a Mac (there has to be something similar for Windows, surely?) then you can type any character that you have set up in that app’s preferences.
Looking at those six in particular, the first could go in a “SNCF 141.TC” category, but some of the other classes used multiple letters (C/D/E/F etc) depending on the type and extent of rebuilding of each locomotive. Some categories would also only have one entry. The second through fifth were all one-offs, and so, given the choice of naming the category after the class or the loco, what had the creator chosen? Both! So we have two mongrel (#2, #4) and four tautologous names (“Class” in #2, #3, #4, and #5). Even if you object to my long-winded category names, surely you can’t object to my desire for at least one name that is correct? If I can’t have all three names, can I have the earliest please?
Hope this helps (and sorry of late replay). Regards, — Iain Bell (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Iain Bell. I noticed your move proposals. There are many cases that a subject of the category (a building, vehicle, person, place...) is renamed or repurposed through times. However, it's not just ordinary solution to combine 2, 3 or more such names in one category name. Usually, the last (current) ame (identification) is used and the old names are redirected to the current name (or can have their own subcategories of older photos where the subject is depicted with the old identification). If the original purpose (name) is more well-known and distinctive, it can be preferred to the current one. But we don't use compound category names as they proposed by you. --ŠJů (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:LNWR Webb Coal TankEdit

Aloha! I moved all the categories as requested, except for this one. My question: Is there another coal tank, do we need a disambiguation? Thanks for your time! --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 04:13, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

No disambiguation is needed as there was only one class called “Coal Tank”. The class that followed was known as the “18-inch Tank”
Hope this helps. Iain Bell (talk) 10:58, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Okidoki, move is on its way. Thanks for your fast reply! :-)) --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 20:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Help neededEdit

Hi Iain! There's an old move request for Category:Rail motor coaches. One objection (only post) on the category talk page. Any thoughts how the category can be renamed? That is if necessary at all. Thanks for your time! --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 04:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

@Iain Bell: Sorry to disturb you. What do you think about this category move? --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 01:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Renaming of portuguese locomotive categoriesEdit

Mr. Bell, there are a few problems with the renaming of the portuguese locomotives categories. It may reflect a bit more the history of the classes, of course, but the issue is that those series never formally existed as described in their categories. For example, the class E201-E216 was always officialy identified as such, and never as "E200". Even in the Minho and Douro division of the Portuguese State Railways, it was never formally known as MD 450, but as "451-456". The single case would be used only to identify a specific locomotive, and never its series; for example, "E205" refered only to the locomotive with the number 205; in the same vein, "200" would represent the locomotive with the number 200, which never existed. The abbreviation to a single number came a bit later, with their diesel and electric brethren in Portugal. For example, the Series 1400 has always been identified as CP1400 or EE1400, and never as "1401-1467". As such, I believe that the new naming conventions for the categories of the portuguese locomotives are wrong. Of course, this is open to discussion, I am just expressing my point of view, as a fellow investigator in the history of the railways. =) Best regards, -- Ajpvalente (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


Andy Dingley (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


  An optimist on the run! 16:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


Andy Dingley (talk) 14:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Locomotives in BASAEdit

Hi, Iain Bell! Thank you very much for the added descriptions and categories of photos from the Bulgarian State Archive.--BASA Спасимир (talk) 21:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


Thank you for your locomotive identifications. Cheers! -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 04:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

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