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Work of Ihor Hordiy

Пишу українською мовою, бо не можу чітко висловити своє запитання англійською мовою. Прошу перекласти, якщо хтось достатньо володіє обома мовами.

Ситуація така: архітектор Ігор Гордій завантажив у Вікісховище серію власних архітектурних проєктів, які в більшости реалізовані в місті Тернополі (Україна), зокрема, завантажив цю світлину каплички (саме зображення вже збудованої споруди, а не ескіз твору), яка збудована 2013 року (також інші зображення будівель за його проєктами: File:Ресторан у с. Підгородньому.jpg, File:Тернопіль - Будинок по вул. Митрополита Шептицького, 5-а.jpg, File:Житловий будинок по вул. Липова в м. Тернополі.jpg, File:РТОК по вул. Кульчицької в м. Тернополі (2016 р.).jpg, File:Автосалон «Міцубісі», «Сузукі», «Ніссан» по вул. Микулинецькій в м. Тернополі (2009 р.).jpg, File:Торговий центр по вул. Оболоня в м. Тернополі (2016 р.).jpg).

Питання: в Україні відсутня Свобода панорами, але, якщо сам архітектор, який створив реалізовані в натурі (збудовані) будинки, завантажив на Вікісховище зображення цих будинків (споруд) під ліцензією CC-BY-SA-4.0 , то чи означає це, що він надав згоду на фотографування і завантаження зображень цих самих будинків іншим фотографам? Микола Василечко (talk) 09:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

English Summary of auto-translation: UK Architect Ihor Hordiy uploaded photographs of his own projects to Commons under CC-BY-SA-4.0 license. Does that CC-BY-SA license transfer to other photographers who wish to upload photographs of the same projects by Hordiy, even as there is no Freedom of Panorama in Ukraine? Bastique ^{☎ let's talk!} 18:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't see any reason it would. He didn't free-license the building, he free-licensed the photo. - Jmabel ! talk 18:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. The CC license applies to "Licensed Material" --- defined as "the artistic or literary work, database, or other material to which the Licensor applied this Public License." Insofar as it is such a work, and given that there is no notice that it is excluded from the scope of the license, the appearance of the building embodied in the photograph should be included within this license grant. The "Licensed Rights" are defined as "the rights granted to You subject to the terms and conditions of this Public License, which are limited to all Copyright and Similar Rights that apply to Your use of the Licensed Material and that the Licensor has authority to license." "Adapted Material" according to the CC license is any material that is "derived from or based upon the Licensed Material […]" — but not necessarily from the Licensed Material in the particular form it takes in the photograph. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 00:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If they uploaded photographs, I would assume the license would just apply to those photographs. We have to give authors that option -- licensing the building appearance so far as it is seen in those photographs, but should not assume more. I would simply consider the photograph itself the "Licensed Material" and I'd prefer to see a court case before aggressively assuming anything beyond what we actually need to host. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the images uploaded by the architect himself (or his camp/representatives) are the only images with legal licensing, since only the architect has the right to share and distribute the photos on the Internet. The uploaders can only have the right to freely share their photos here if they had prior permission from the architect, which should be made through COM:VRTS correspondence (like an email from Ihor Hordiy). The best option is to convince him to finally allow the free licensing of all images here as well as future uploads of his buildings, in a one-shot correspondence of authorization. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 02:12, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@D. Benjamin Miller: by way of a thought experiment here: if I paint an oil painting, and then free-license a macro image of one particular brush stroke (or a few such images), would you say I have thereby free-licensed the oil painting? Presuming the answer is "no," then how is what you are arguing different from that? - Jmabel ! talk 03:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It's very different. In your hypothetical, the copyrighted work (painting) is not substantially included within the image. Here, the copyrightable work (the design of the exterior of the building) is substantially included, and the license should be taken to apply to what is actually conveyed in the image. It is 100% kosher for someone to draw a picture of the building at a different angle — and it would also be allowed to take a photograph of a physical building to yield a similar result. In fact, the images posted by Hordiy tend to include most of the external appearance of the building; the other parts are generally similar to the parts included, to the point where they may include minimal (if any) separate originality constituting an independent copyrightable work from the portions actually shown.

The contrast between these scenarios is that in your hypothetical almost none of the hypothetical painting is shown, whereas these photos show almost all of the copyrightable elements of the exterior design.

As for what @JWilz12345 says, anyone who receives the license certainly has permission to depict whatever copyrighted work is fully contained within the picture from a different angle, and whether this is done via drawing or via photography is irrelevant. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gor Igor: Чи можете дати відповідь, як автор проєктів будівель? --Микола Василечко (talk) 04:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Написав також листа через електронну пошту до автора. Якщо зрозуміє про що мова, відповість і надасть дозвіл, то це буде позитивне вирішення. Інакше, доведетьсмя вилучати деякі завантажені зображення його проєктів будівель, завантажених іншими фотографами, наприклад зображення каплички у цій категорії.--Микола Василечко (talk) 04:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no answer from the author. So, what is the conclusion with the files? Other photographers can you download photos or not? --Микола Василечко (talk) 07:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Микола Василечко try to ask the architect if he is willing to allow the use of free licenses for the other uploads by other users. We have COM:VRTS to process licensing authorizations via email and other forms of correspondences. User:Gor Igor may be inactive, so it's no use of mentioning him here. Email correspondence to Wikimedia from Ihor is what we need. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 07:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@JWilz12345 I wrote User:Gor Igor on email correspondence to Wikimedia as well. There is no answer. If I meet him (we live in city Ternopil), I ask it in person. There is no permission now, so the files must be deleted. --Микола Василечко (talk) 08:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Shortest, standard and language-agnostic license statement for social media posts

Hi! I started a discussion elsewhere about what would be the shortest, standard and language-agnostic license statement for social media posts that we as Wikimedia Commons community would feel comfortable enough with. I was suggested to move the discussion over here:

I'm interested in providing simple ways for people to share their photos to Wikimedia Commons. In particular, I'm interested in ways how they can share their Instagram posts. I have already read this, this, this and this and found them all very interesting and useful.

What do you think may be the shortest text they may add to their post that acceptably communicates their will to release it under a CC license? I'm trying to find something as short, standard and language-agnostic as possible, as I think something like that may (1) make it easier for authors to add it, (2) make it easier for everyone to search such freely-licensed content on Instagram, and (3) make it easier for us to confirm (even automatically) that the post has been licensed appropriately.

Ideally, I think a hashtag such as #CC_BY_SA_4_0 would meet all the criteria above. Do you think this would be clear and unambiguous enough? It does not include a link to the license, but the examples provided here don't include them either and seem to be OK.

Consider also this previous thread for additional context.

Maybe we could come up with some guideline or policy? Maybe something like Commons:Flickr files? And maybe update Commons:License review and Commons:Where is the license on various sites? accordingly? Diegodlh (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

"I (insert name here) do Hereby release my work under (insert free license here)." in the caption. The image still has to be within scope. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 21:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say that e.g. simply adding "CC BY-SA 4.0" to a photo is already enough. Gnom (talk) 07:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Think there needs to be some statement of who took the photograph. A hashtag or licence mention could also mean that they're reposting a CC-licenced image they found online, and (wrongly) believe that it's enough to mention the licence type, without naming the original photographer. (eg. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn2EqKxlmHi, which looks more like someone using a free stock photo.) Belbury (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I've been thinking about a guideline on Commons similar to that on Wikipedia, but to extend the guidelines to include publicists and agents. Of course we would have to call it Commons:Publicists, Agents, and You (COM:PAY). 😅 Bastique ^{☎ let's talk!} 21:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

com:PAY should be the paid editor page. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 23:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've been working on permissions a lot in the last few months, and I'm pessimistic that short, standardized, and language-agnostic attainable, if we also care that permissions obtained via the process are robust and ethical. Considering a few different elements of this:

• the license part is easy -- via a hashtag as you suggest
• we also need (as already stated by Belbury) a statement that the person posting the image owns it or is otherwise authorized to license it. This is vital, but not language-agnostic. It *could* also take the form of a set of hashtags in different languages. #MyOwnPhoto #MaProprePhoto #MeinEigenesFoto
• our email template also makes it clear to people that the decision is irrevocable and describes how the image might be used. I think this is ethically important, and don't see any easy way to express acknowledgement of this concisely and language-agnostically.

So how's this for an idea? We could have a system where people who want to make their social media photos usable on the Commons could sign some acknowledgements, register their social media account, and receive a token in return. For example, after I register my Instagram handle, and acknowledge that I promise only to tag my own work and understand the implications of what I'm doing, and select a license, I get a token "WGE57EF7". From then on, anything I post from my registered handle with the hashtag #WGE57EF7 may be used on the Commons under the license I chose. The registered social media account would not necessarily have to be publicly identified with a Wikimedia account. Thoughts? --Rlandmann (talk) 14:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Retroactivity of Malaysian copyright law

COM:CRT/Malaysia used to contain contradictory information on whether the 1987 copyright act was retroactive. However, the section cited both for and against retroactivity seems clear to me in stating that expired terms would not be revived:

[T]his Act shall apply in relation to works made before the commencement of this Act as it applies in relation to works made after the commencement of this Act: Provided that this section shall not be construed as reviving any copyrights which had expired before the commencement of this Act.

I edited COM:CRT/Malaysia accordingly; however, since the previous copyright terms for photographic works were 25 years from publication, this seems to place all pre-1962 photos first published in Malaysia into the public domain, regardless of the life dates of the author, and also avoids URAA restoration for those works.

Does anyone see a fault in this chain of thought, and if not, should we perhaps create a template to reflect this? Felix QW (talk) 15:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

My read of it is that all works that were in copyright in 1987 had their terms extended, while all works that were expired in 1987 did not have their copyrights extended so pre-1962 published photos are PD as far as URAA as well as all works by authors who died before 1962. Abzeronow (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Ditto to Abzeronow. - Jmabel ! talk 21:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

My reading of it is similar to Abzeronow's interpretation, but I also see that regarding licenses, exceptions etc. the current law applies. The retroactivity part applies to such things as licensing, copyright exceptions, and penalties, while the non-retroactive part is for works that are already in PD in Malaysia by the time the law took effect. We may need to take into account two aspects of retroactivity in copyright laws: retroactivity regarding uses/licenses/exceptions and retroactivity regarding copyright terms. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 23:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all! Now we should only consider whether it makes sense to add at least the photography case to {{PD-Malaysia}} (authors who died before 1962 would be PD in Malaysia anyway, there the main interest is in avoiding the COM:URAA), or whether to make a new template similar to {{PD-Japan-oldphoto}}. Felix QW (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Phi Kappa Hall plaque, Athens, GA.jpg

Since the text on the plaque shown in File:Phi Kappa Hall plaque, Athens, GA.jpg seems to be nothing more than factual information and not really creative prose and the plaque's design appears to be fairly utilitarian, it seems like all that's needed here is a {{PD-text}} license. Am I missing something? -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: Well, the text is PD, but the photographer holds a copyright in their work. Gnom (talk) 07:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The license provided by the uploader (assuming they're also the photographer) is fine, but it isn't applicable to the plaque. My apologies if my question was unclear, but basically it is whether a separate license (e.g. "PD-text") should be added for the plaque in addition to the one already provided for the photo. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Marchjuly you can freely add the PD-text template if you wish, or if you want reusers and readers to be more literate in the concept of derivative works. Both the PD-text and the uploader's licensing can be embedded within the {{Licensed-PD}} template. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 09:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Uploading image posted by a government "head" on IG

hello there! The Vice prez of India uploaded this image on the official Instagram account of VP. Are such images considered public domain under GODL.? Can we upload such images to commons? What are the guidelines? ~redmyname31~💬 05:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Very similar situation is discussed below at Commons:Village_pump/Copyright#GODL-India_&_X_(Twitter). Commander Keane (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/Files created by SantanaZ and Minorax

Buenas administradores, estos logos deberían ser removidas (delete) o quedarse (kept)? AbchyZa22 (talk) 08:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Is this a case of limited publication?

Here's an interesting one from my ongoing review of images uploaded from National Weather Services webpages: File:Sayler Park - Bridgeport tornado.jpg The story goes:

1. In 1974, Frank Altenau, a resident of Cincinatti, Ohio, took two Polaroid photos of a tornado
2. He showed his photos to one of his co-workers, Martha Metsch, who happened to be a volunteer weather observer for the NWS and who took the readings at the Cheviot Weather Station. Such weather stations are not offices, but simple collections of instruments distributed across thousands of sites across the US to enable volunteers to take readings to submit back to the NWS. We have photos of a few here. There is no indication that Mr Altenau was also an NWS volunteer, and we have no idea of who his and Ms Metsch's joint employer was. (That is, we have no reason to think that Mr Altenau was a federal employee performing his duties when he took these photos).
3. Ms Metsch mailed photocopies of Mr Altenau's Polaroid photos to the NWS regional office at Cincinnati. You can see a copy of her letter here -- https://www.weather.gov/media/iln/events/19740403/Metsch.pdf . Ms Metsch's letter contains no statement about limiting further circulation of the images, and the copy published on the web includes a hand annotation that suggests that her letter was posted somewhere (a notice board?) for staff of the regional office to see.
4. Many years later, a scan of one of those photocopies was published on the NWS website: https://www.weather.gov/iln/19740403 and eventually made its way here to the Commons.

It seems probable that Mr Altenau was aware that Ms Metsch was (a) making copies of his photos and (b) intended to submit those copies to the NWS; and we can infer that this happened with his consent.

My analysis: pre-1976 US courts sought to avoid accidental divestiture of copyright by developing a doctrine of "limited publication" to distinguish circulation of a work from general publication. Such limited publication was to a select group of people (not the general public) and for a specific purpose. I think that the facts we know or can safely infer fit that.

If so this image remained unpublished (as far as we know) until posted on the web, post 1989, and copyright belongs to Mr Altenau (or his heirs or estate).

Question: Does anyone think that the facts as we know them suggest general publication (which would put this image into the public domain for want of a copyright notice) --Rlandmann (talk) 21:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not see proof of general publication. Mr. Altenau might know that Ms. Metsch was interested in the weather and showed her the pictures. She photocopied them. Mr. Altenau might then offer to get her better copies. Mr. Altenau might be ignorant of Ms. Metsch intention to share the photos with NWS. The forwarding of the photocopies is stated to be outside of her regular reporting. Glrx (talk) 03:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

If the transmission was made with the consent of the photographer, and there was no limitation placed on further dissemination of the photo by the receipient (that is, no limitation which would prevent the NWS from disseminating copies), then it was general publication. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There were different doctrines of what limited publication was between circuits, but the most common was the one you mention -- distribution to a limited set of people for a limited purpose, and no further right of distribution. All three needed to be satisfied otherwise it was general publication. The Copyright Office notes that even giving a copy to a friend can be general publication. The main question here is under what conditions the photos were given to Ms. Metsch. There is no indication of limiting distribution after that, and it certainly seems Mr. Altenau was quite aware of the intent to forward on the photos. Not PD-USGov, but seems fairly likely to me these were published (maybe depending on judicial circuit). Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Image copyright question at w:Wikipedia:Teahouse#PD - CA Gov

Please answer at w:Wikipedia:Teahouse#PD - CA Gov instead of here. Thank you, Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 01:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

replied —Matrix(!) _{ping one}^{when replying} {user - talk? - _uselesscontributions} 17:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

File:FiskEnvelope.jpg

Is File:FiskEnvelope.jpg correctly licensed? It might be PD for some reason, but not sure how it meets the conditions of "PD-USGov". -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

PD-USGov for the stamp. The card itself is probably PD no notice. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Logos complejos al Dominio Público

Buenas una pregunta,los logos complejos están al Dominio Público por motivos (osea por tener formato SVG,expiraron derechos de autor o según leyes en algúnos paises)?? AbchyZa22 (talk) 10:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Por favor, haz una pregunta específica, no tan abstracta. ¿los logos complejos? ¿algúnos paises? Y me escapa completemente come sea relevante que sea SVG. - Jmabel ! talk 18:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel:Ok,pregunto los logos complejos están en el Dominio Público? AbchyZa22 (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Can this be moved here?

en:File:Greenville, NC City Logo.jpg

This logo does not meet the threshold of originality AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 00:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: @IronGargoyle: Abzeronow (talk) 01:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I would say yes. This is easily below the US threshold of originality. IronGargoyle (talk) 02:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks below ToO to me. Most is text. The square is a simple geometric shape. Changing the color in one corner does not add much. {{PD-textlogo}}. Glrx (talk) 16:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I thought so, and figured someone who was an administrator at enwiki could import it faster than I could (since I'd have to request undeletion there since I'm only an extended-confirmed user there). Abzeronow (talk) 17:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's fine. - Jmabel ! talk 18:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone moved it AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

can't change the license, can't report a bug

I found a file with the wrong license: File:Bao river basin.png and I wanted to fix it adding {{OpenStreetMap |name = |location = |description = {{en|1=Bao river basin}} |top = |bottom = |left = |right = |date =2024-09-30 |authors = |other_versions = |warp_status = |warp_url = |odbl = |other_fields = |image = }} because the license of the file is incorrect. I got an error "An automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, and it has been disallowed. If this edit is constructive, please report this error. " and can't save the edit.

There was a link to "report this error" so I clicked it and filled the form. Then there was a captcha, and then another one, and another one, and it forces me to solve the captcha infinitely.

Please correct the license or remove this bug. 83.30.123.79 13:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

To ensure the integrity of the license information only logged in users are allowed to change the author or license of a file. GPSLeo (talk) 15:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The filled-out template above does not actually give any proper location info, so I have no easy way to find the OpenStreetMaps map in question. - Jmabel ! talk 06:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

License reviews of media sourced from now-dead links

Hello,

I tried to review some licenses of uploads in the huge backload of Youtube sourced files. The YT link is dead, archived versions are available. But I did not see a visible license mention on the page. The uploader provided a screenshot of the HTML code of the archived page showing a hint to a CC license. Indeed, for this example, archived here, there is this code to be found at line 618 in the archive:

<a href="https://archive.md/o/Spt91/https://www.youtube.com/t/creative_commons" style="font-size:100%;background-color: transparent; cursor:pointer;text-decoration:none;white-space:nowrap;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);border-width: 0px; border-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border-color: white; " target="_blank">Creative Commons Attribution license (reuse allowed)</a>

Would that be sufficient to pass the review? Are we from the community of license reviewers supposed to check source code pages for licensing info? Can we trust the archiving techniques to reproduce faithfully the license information? Just asking to remove a bit of uncertainty for me and for learning. Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 18:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Grand-Duc yes I think we can pass files based on info on an archive page. I made a post at Commons:Village_pump#Almost_400k_files_need_license_review about what to do with old files that are no longer online. --MGA73 (talk) 16:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Permission statements

What the current practice on permission statements? At Commons:Email templates there is a template requiring an uploader to send an email for each file.

Is there a possibility to do that for organizations to do that for all uploads through their account?
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @John Cummings for this question. Gnom (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Lic

Please confirm the license for the file File:Toxi$.jpg. Sorry for writing here, I don't quite understand how Wikimedia Commons works, please tell me which template to use in the future. Нейроманьяк (talk) 13:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Нейроманьяк: please do add categories to your uploads.

This one is a little tricky. YouTube indicates "Creative Commons Attribution license" but does not give a version number. I don't know quite what we do with that, though it should presumably be OK. Other thoughts? - Jmabel ! talk 19:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: That's standard for Youtube and regularly accepted here since it links to 3.0. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@King of Hearts: where does it link to 3.0? I tried following it up and didn't see that.

@Нейроманьяк: assuming King of Hearts is right, what you did is fine (but you should add categories to the file page). - Jmabel ! talk 20:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: The Youtube explainer page for Creative Commons has a link. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I see it now, but it's almost like they were trying to hide it (no mention of version number on the explainer page itself!). - Jmabel ! talk 21:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oscar Parkes

We have quite a number of pictures made by Oscar Parkes as a British naval surgeon during World War I. We generally host them as {{PD-UKGov}}, assuming that his photography was in the course of his regular duties, and I just tagged File:A_fake_submarine_date_and_location_unknown._(48914227996).jpg as such too. Does anyone here have an opinion on whether it is reasonable to assume that the photos made by someone whose ordinary duties did not explicitly involve documentation fall under {{PD-UKGov}} rather than being private photos taken alongside his regular duties? Felix QW (talk) 22:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As a general principle, I'd say it's not reasonable to assume that. However, Parkes was not just a surgeon; he worked for naval intelligence, and his work certainly covered decoys like the one in the photograph. Without knowing the context in which this photo was taken or used (if any), it's impossible to distinguish whether it was taken on-duty or off-duty, and I would support a precautionary delete of this and other questionable images by Parkes until 2029 (not long now). --Rlandmann (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It was the start of WWI, that access to Royal Navy establishments became restricted and censorship of photographs commenced. OP was on active duty, when these pictures were made. Broichmore (talk) 12:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

GODL-India & X (Twitter)

Hello guys. From the past few days I am seeing an increase in number of files upload under GODL-India where source is some or other Official Twitter handle of various agencies under Govt of India. This includes PMO, ministries, armed forces and others. Can someone clarify if files imported from Twitter are allowed? Bcoz as far as I understand there is nowhere stated that files published there falls under GODL. It is never published like that. Pinging @Yann who too said that we don't have permission for files coming from official social media handles of different agencies of the Indian government. Please correct me if I am wrong. ShaanSengupta^Talk 17:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I think we should not accept files from any social media, including Twitter. Yann (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Yann. Anything from Facebook is an automatic speedy for me. (On reflection, It does seem that burden of proof has shifted from the up loader/keep voters to the person nominating for deletion/deletionists.) All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 18:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

On that point@Alachuckthebuck I would like to ping @King of Hearts for his input. Bcoz in past I nominated some files taken from Twitter uploaded under GODL. He advised against speedy and told me to go through DR. I would love to hear them. ShaanSengupta^Talk 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

If there is a possibility that the file is under a free license, then go for a regular DR, but we still need either a source from a government website, or a permission via VRT. Yann (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Facebook and Twitter are platforms, so being hosted on those websites says nothing about the copyright status of such images (for example, US government agencies may post images there). In general, I just treat them as any other website and make decisions on a case-by-case basis. @Alachuckthebuck: The burden of proof is absolutely on the deletion tagger in the case of speedy deletion. If the tagger is not sure, then they can raise any reasonable suspicion at DR, and then the burden of proof shifts to the uploader. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in and clarifying burden of proof. The main reason we don't like facebook is they remove all EXIF data from photos, and they don't have a mechanism for releasing work under a free license on their site. Additonally, an issue with the license terms in meta's TOS causes all photos uploaded to the site to not be free, but it's rendered moot by the prior point. For our purposes, almost anything above TOO uploaded to Facebook is unfree. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 17:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Alachuckthebuck: " For our purposes, almost anything above TOO uploaded to Facebook is unfree." I believe that is false, and if you believe it is true I would like to see you cite policy to that effect. Some things that seem to me like obvious counterexamples:

• A well-known person or organization places an image or a set of images on a public-facing Facebook post and says explicitly that they release this material under an appropriate free license (e.g. CC-BY 4.0).
• The work is obviously old enough to be public domain (e.g. a Facebook post would be a perfectly acceptable source for a painting by Winslow Homer; we don't really care where it came from).

And, no, Meta's terms do not make content on Facebook unfree. They grant Meta a license to reuse the materials; that in no way interferes with granting other licenses. - Jmabel ! talk 19:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel That's why I said almost. Those are definitely exceptions to the rule. But the vast majority of files from Facebook that get uploaded to commons aren't in scope and/or unfree (I have probably tagged 350 copyvios from Facebook in the last 6 months) . Your counterpoints are perfectly valid, and I wish they happened more often. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 21:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yann & King of Hearts going for DR instead of Speedy is when you are unsure about the licence. Here the issue is different completely. How can a file which mentions X (Twitter) as a source come under GODL-India? Even if it is free we need to cite the source which says so. We have never recieved permission which states that images coming from X or any other social media website even if from official govt handles are covered under GODL. Comparing it to US Federal copyright law doesn't make sense to me. These are Indian Govt works. And the only way we can use it here is when it is uploaded on govt websites under that license. ShaanSengupta^Talk 05:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Files from Wikimapia

Hi, How reliable is the license for files from Wikimapia? This concerns among others, File:Киевская правда.jpg, a small and poor quality file without EXIF. Yann (talk) 17:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No answer, so Commons:Deletion requests/File:Киевская правда.jpg. Yann (talk) 09:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Visual art copyright - Publication & Reproductions Q

Hi y'all -- This is possibly a very rudimentary question, so I apologize if I'm asking for help on something super basic. But I wanted to get clarification on the publication requirements for copyright under U.S. law. I was formerly under the impression that for a work of visual art (2-dimensional, i.e. painting, drawing, etc.) to be considered published, it needed to be reproduced visually in a publication, whether that's a serial like a magazine, as numbered prints, or even in the form of a postcard. But earlier this year I asked this forum about a specific instance of a reproduction of a painting being published without copyright, and it was explained to me that technically that reproduction didn't count as publication of the underlying painting because it was not high-quality enough to include all the details of the painting.

Completely unrelated to that earlier question, I stumbled on the file talk page for Picasso's painting Les Demoiselles d'Avignon - hosted in full resolution directly on English Wikipedia - and was really intrigued by the (now very old) discussion there. It seems editors on Wikipedia came to the conclusion that a black-and-white, fairly low quality reproduction in a magazine of Picasso's painting in the early 20th century counted as publication, meaning the painting is in the public domain.

I'm struggling to square these differing conclusions. Carl Lindberg stated in his response to my earlier query that "only the expression in those distributed copies was without notice, and only that expression lost its copyright protection," meaning reproductions of visual art only count as partial publication of the underlying artwork, unless the reproduction is mechanically identical enough to capture all the visual detail. But editors at Wikipedia seem to think that this reproduction of Picasso's painting constituted publication of the underlying work. Does anyone have any insights here? I have to think the editors on Wikipedia just weren't totally informed, but the Picasso painting in question is like, universally considered one of his most important, so I'm kind of surprised his estate/gallery haven't tried to prove it's actually copyrighted in the U.S. 19h00s (talk) 21:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@19h00s: All of this if very murky, because U.S. copyright law of that era was simply not written with one-off works of art in mind. There was no statute law clarifying what constituted publication of such works, and all we have to go on is case law. I think Carl's answer is entirely reasonable. A low-res black-and-white reproduction is a derivative work. Under the old pre-Berne U.S. regime of copyright law, if that were done without copyright notice, it would probably not mean that the underlying work automatically passed into the public domain. I'm not as sure whether, if done with copyright notice, it would start the clock ticking on the 95 years of protection after publication. But that is likely to be moot, because at the time public exhibition was generally counted as publication.

I would also say that the Wikipedia editors were probably wrong about that particular line of logic, but Les Demoiselles d'Avignon was exhibited in 1914, so under that era's standard that probably counted as publication.

Again, though: none of this is "hard and fast." We are in a murky area. - Jmabel ! talk 04:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This is super helpful, thank you! Especially good to know that this is a somewhat murky area of the law. One last question -- do you know when the standard changed from exhibition to publication?

And to be clear, I definitely wasn't doubting Carl's explanation or expertise, I was just struggling to square it with the conclusion Wikipedia editors came to. Really appreciate your help! Thanks again. 19h00s (talk) 12:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect Carl can do a better job than I of saying the exact dates when what changed. He is definitely more of an expert than I am. - Jmabel ! talk 19:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

There is more information at Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US. The 1909 US copyright law did not have a definition of "publication", so courts had to come up with their own. There was a 1907 ruling that declared that a public exhibition where copying was strictly prohibited was not publication, but hinted that exhibition that allowed copying could be (which was later part of a 1960s Picasso statue ruling in Chicago, when it came to exhibition of a miniature version, plus pamphlets with photos of it, which was ruled to be published even before the full-size version was made -- the full-size version had no additional expression over the miniature). Thus, we take art permanently put up in public before 1978 as published. Temporary indoor exhibitions are murkier. The law that went into effect in 1978 did have a definition of publication, so that was more explicit that simply being in public could not be publication, so the situation changed after that. But, simply offering to sell a work to the general public is also publication, even today. Given the murky situation with things like paintings, we tend to assume that a work was published around the time it was created, and the publication question is more of a theoretical doubt. That is unless there is documentation or other indication that a work remained with the artist for a long time, i.e. only came to light after death, or the heirs did something with it. Or photographic negatives from a photographer's estate, where we have no idea if the original was published or not. Some indication that it could have truly remained unpublished for a long time -- that can change things. Or if a possible copyright owner can provided additional details, that may change things. It can be a community decision what exactly amounts to "significant doubt" per COM:PRP in cases like that -- there are very few bright lines. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Related file: File:Aspects of twentieth century painting, 1963.pdf. This is a US catalog of various works of art. Is it OK here, or should it be moved to the English Wikipedia? Yann (talk) 09:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

That appears to be published without a copyright notice. Any expression original to that publication would be public domain originally. If that could serve to put any of the included paintings into the public domain, even if published before, that's a bit harder. The law did allow for a "relative few" to be published without becoming public domain -- court cases I've heard about put the number between 1 and 2 percent. Relying on that gets a big dodgier, since you'd have to see how often and how widely they were published otherwise. Most likely, this was not the major publication for those paintings. Either way, that definitely would not make the country of origin the US if the paintings were first published in other countries. So, you'd have to do an analysis on each painting, using the law in the country of origin (and see if restored by the URAA). It makes the paintings published, certainly, but current copyright status may be harder to determine, and you'd probably have to do on on a lot of them. With a quick glance there were many old ones that could be OK, but also several that could well still be under copyright, in either the US or the country of origin. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Carl Lindberg: I uploaded this file (and others) specifically to show that images of these works of art were published in USA at a certain date. It would be surprising to me if that put the works of art in the public domain, but I expect that at least the images in this publication to be in the public domain. And that these could be used to illustrate these works of art in Wikipedia. A bit like a free picture of a statue in a FOP-allowed country. The statue itself is not free, but the image is. Yann (talk) 09:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It certainly makes them published, yes. The law does say that if "the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively small number of copies" then copyright is not lost.[1] Under the older law, the practice per the Compendium similarly did say if the great bulk of the published copies of a work bore an appropriate notice, but that the notice was accidentally omitted from a very few of the published copies, registration may be made. If a considerable number of copies were distributed, or the entire first edition (even if small) lacked notice, then copyright was lost. The compendium also says that Works by foreign authors first published before June 18, 1959 will be considered for registration even if the notice is defective or lacking, though they would send a warning letter. I think that is the date they published some rules in the Federal Register; there were some earlier court cases about foreign works not losing copyright due to lack of notice on the original work, though the Universal Copyright Convention included the concept of a notice by that point. But even if this publication did inject these (or at least the expression seen here) into the public domain at the time, the URAA happened later, and could have restored any foreign work. So it's the URAA that would mostly matter. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Charles Henry Alston, The Family, 1955 1 15 18 -whitneymuseum (26123979297).jpg

Hi, We have a free license for the picture, but what about the painting? Yann (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yann: is there any reason to believe it had a copyright notice? In 1955 in the U.S., it would have needed one to be copyrighted if published. - Jmabel ! talk 19:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it may lack a copyright notice, but where is the evidence? Or do we assume that all US paintings prior to 1978 are in the public domain due to lack of notice unless proved otherwise? I am fine with either way, but we can't have it both ways. Yann (talk) 20:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

If 1955 is the effective publication date, copyright would have had to be renewed in 1983 (give or take a year). That's pretty straightforward to determine. - Jmabel ! talk 01:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• When and where was it first exhibited to the public? --Rlandmann (talk) 06:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Mandelbrot set fractal zoom.webm

Hello,

I came across this file while tackling the Youtube review backlog. I'm a bit at a loss, here. The visuals are fine (the video license shows for that). The uploader also tried to check the status for the background music, and it does not look too bad, too: it's apparently also under a license that could be allowed here, on Commons. Well, it lacks attribution, but that'll be an easy fix. But the presumed music composer wrote individualized licensing terms that could be read here, and it could be borderline not free enough for us. Quote (somewhat typographically fixed):

"Things you can’t do with this music: Use it without attributing or accrediting it. Re-sell it (in part or in whole) directly or in-directly. Distribute, re-distribute, rent, sell, lease, sub-lease, or otherwise transfer any of this music except as woven into a **creative project,[...]"

This may be akin to a "No Derivative" stipulation and henceforth forbidden. Please advise! Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 02:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Re-sell it (in part or in whole) directly or in-directly" amounts to non-commercial, so we can't use the music. It should be easy to strip the music out and leave it silent, or to replace the music with something unencumbered? --Rlandmann (talk) 08:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Copyvio File:Whitcomb marion.jpg improper nomination closure

The prior closure on Commons:Deletion requests/File:Whitcomb marion.jpg was improper. It is described as photographed in 1951.

While technicality in user Bedivere's nomination may not have been perfect, it should have been deleted.

Uploader could not have been the photographer, because per their own disclosure on their profile, they were born in 1953. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Greghenderson2006

They also specified the author as "unknown".

This being family album photo, it was likely never published and uploader did not furnish copyright registration or evidence of publication. Given this situation, I believe the presumption of family photos not having been published unless shown otherwise is correct.

Per Commons:Hirtle Chart, when the photographer is unknown, unpublished photos are in copyright for 120 years after creation. Greghenderson2006 can't release someone else's work willy nilly like this. (this is work in the US State of California)

Two prior discussions on family photo matters agree:

• Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2013/11#Family_Photo_Albums_Copyright
• Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2023/05#Family_photograph

So, I believe the closure with ruling to keep was improper. Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If the photo was taken by a family member and never published, the uploader seems like they could have inherited the copyright, and licensed it. If it was taken by someone outside the family and given to them, that actually could have constituted publication. The Compendium does mention: Giving away copies of a photograph without further restriction constitutes publication of that work. If there was no copyright notice in that situation, then copyright was lost. I am assuming this is a US work. The current claim on the work is that the uploader owns an inherited copyright, and licensed it. I'm not sure there is reason to not assume good faith on that score. While yes it may still be under copyright for 120 years from creation, if this was the first publication, that copyright is licensed freely. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If it was taken by a family member, the author wouldn't be "unknown". As is rather common knowledge, the photographer retains wedding photos. The copyright is not the client's unless specifically said so in the contract. "seems like they could have" is enough for using the photo on someone's family tree website, but not enough for our purpose since the photo has to be usable for all purposes, including commercial use.

if someone wanted to include photos like this for profit making books, this could create an issue involving photographer/studios, and publishers. Graywalls (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The copyright of wedding photos was far murkier in the day. Since 1978 it's more clear, but this is earlier than that. Court cases went both ways then (or three ways even). If it's a wedding photographer, you could argue all kinds of things (including PD status as published without notice). Or a commissioned work where the common-law copyright was implicitly transferred without being published (meaning the family did own the copyright and is now licensed. (Many museums claim stuff like that.) Or maybe a claim that the wedding photographer still owns it -- though frankly that is probably the least likely. 01:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clindberg (talk • contribs)

Music in silent movies

Is there a copyright reason why silent movies like File:The Circus (1928) by Charlie Chaplin (restored version).webm or File:The Kid (1921).webm don't have any music in them? Mika1h (talk) 13:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As a silent film, there would have been no soundtrack. There may well have been music played by live musicians alongside, but it would not have been part of the recording. If there are videos on the net with added sound, then yes, the copyright of that music and recording would have to be determined as well, as it would not be from the original. The US copyright involving sound recording is fairly complicated and can last longer than 95 years -- see {{PD-US-record}}. We would need to know what the sound recording was and when it came from. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The Circus file page says the source is the Criterion Blu-ray. Criterion advertises the release as "featuring an original score by Chaplin". I assume this score is copyrighted and can't be included with Commons upload? --Mika1h (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

If that is the score from the 1969 re-release, then unless there was no copyright notice on that re-release, it will remain under copyright until at least 2065 and probably 2067 (as it may have been released first separately as a sound recording as well). Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mika1h: Not only do we have to consider the copyright of the composer on the score, but we must also consider the copyrights of the performers, recorders, publishing companies, etc.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The soundtracks on those releases are new recordings. Even if the score is in the public domain, the new recordings are not. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

GFDL license update

In case anyone would like to comment there is a DR at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Material.jpg about the update from GFDL to Cc-by-sa-3.0 on old uploads. MGA73 (talk) 16:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Several TOO questions

Hi, I just want to verify/know if the following are above or below the threshold of originality in the United States:

1. This album cover of the Russian rock band Kino's album Gruppa krovi. It is based on this poster.
2. The book cover of Weike Wang's 2017 novel Chemistry.
3. The cover of Eric Storm's 2024 book Nationalism.
4. This scan of Frances Ellen Watkins Harper's poetry collection Forest Leaves. I'm concerned that it might be too 3D to be considered a "slavish copy"; see especially page 14 in the PDF.

Thanks, prospectprospekt (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

1. The texture of the graphic plus the font make this definitely above TOO in russia.
2. Unsure, as the atom is probably more than simple shapes.
3. Defnitly not, as the text warp and the color used to represent a flag make this above ToO.
4. Probably not, but I don't know for sure as Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United States doesn't mention scans of books.

All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 22:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

On (4) do we know the date of that printing? Fair chance it is an expired copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 23:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I see, your concern is the scan. I doubt that slightly inept scanning and stains on the original give you a copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 23:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

(1) is so similar to Kazimir Malevich's poster for Doktor Mabuse der Spieler that I doubt it could possibly be copyrighted in its own right. - Jmabel ! talk