Open main menu
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Separate image, similar question

Similar question as above, form of satire and artistic expression, not really similar enough to Mr. Hankey though albeit perhaps inspired by the character would be a better phrasing. Okay to upload here to Wikimedia Commons? Checking here first ...

  1. This image is probably different enough, thoughts? -- Cirt (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm puzzled why we would even have Category:Mr. Hankey, the Christmas Poo since any depiction of Mr. Hankey is going to be a derivative work. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
We do have the cosplay shots in that cat. INeverCry 00:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, not really derivative works in that cat at all, more like inspired by the phenomenon, and loosely so at that, some of them are hardly recognizable as the character itself, just slightly similar works of artistic expression. -- Cirt (talk) 00:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I would have to say that something called "I ate Mr Hankey" is more than just "inspired by" the character. That particular image appears to incorporate cut-and-pasted elements from an illustration of the character. I think that the file you just uploaded is a clear and obvious derivative work - don't you, Cirt? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Nope, looks like it was a christmas hat type drawing drawn on by the artist onto a piece of breakfast sausage, nothing more, nothing less. -- Cirt (talk) 13:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry Cirt, but I do not believe your answer is truthful. I am quite sure you are familiar with the character and cannot fail to see that this sausage has quite deliberately been made to look like Mr. Hankey. I might have let things slide if you had deleted the second batch of files that you had uploaded, but uploading another instance during this discussion and denying the obvious is too much. This has become an issue not just with the images but with your actions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Delicious carbuncle, take a look at it, it looks like a picture of a sausage that someone put a christmas hat on, do you deny that much? -- Cirt (talk) 18:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
It's also basically a small percentage portion of the larger picture, and a form of satire expression after manipulating the bigger image of the multiple different sausages, it a way for the artist to provide artistic expression about the perceived poor quality of said sausages. -- Cirt (talk) 18:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Cirt, I do not know why you are on a campaign to add images of Mr. Hankey to Commons, but it is obvious that that is exactly what you are doing. Do you care to share your motivation? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Not on a campaign, motivation just general interest in the subject matter and trying to see whether it was possible to obtain free-use licenses for related images loosely inspired by the topic. -- Cirt (talk) 03:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

January 31

Need help uploading please

I don't know how to upload a photo unless it's from my computer, can someone please upload and tag them correctly? The copyright permission is at the bottom of each photo. It's the Sanitation strike of 1968 in Memphis, TN. Thanks! [1] [2] [3] USchick (talk) 04:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Their CC licences say 'no commercial use' so they can't be uploaded here. You could try emailing them to change that.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
According to the legal description [4] the photos can be used under Fair Use. Does that mean they can be uploaded to Wikipedia, but not Commons? I'm ok with that. How can we upload them there? I appreciate any help in advance. USchick (talk) 17:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
If you're new to the whole licensing thing, then I would advise you not to start with trying to upload a fair-use image to en.wikipedia, because the rules for that get more baroque and labyrinthine by the year... AnonMoos (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Now, now. The instructions for using fair-use images on Wikipedia is at en:WP:FUR. Note that it is substantially more restrictive than fair use law, but there are still quite a few images allowed under it. If you have any questions, you can ask at en:Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 22:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but I've been editing en.wikipedia somewhat regularly since 2005, and I've seen repeated cycles of bots leaving messages on article talk pages saying in effect that what was good enough last year is not good enough this year. I have pretty much zero confidence in my ability to fill in all the bureaucratic petty details of a fair-use template in a manner that would spare the image from being nominated for deletion, so I would regard it as somewhat grotesque to propose that someone with no experience with uploading should start off by trying to upload a fair-use image there... AnonMoos (talk) 00:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Historical Ornithology of Shropshire

A new website, The Historical Ornithology of Shropshire (England) has a wealth of archive martial, some of it out of copyright, including pages scanned from old books. Enjoy! Andy Mabbett (talk) 18:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Google Art Project import done

The Google Art Project uploads are complete (at least until they add more works). I've emptied the main category and sorted the files by collection at Category:Google Art Project works by collection. I could still use all the help I can get in categorizing the files, replacing lower-quality existing versions (and copying categories from them), and adding them to articles. Please let me know if you encounter any problematic files and I'll eliminate them - or if you have any questions. I'm in the process of uploading works that are PD in the US but not in their source country to English Wikipedia, such as en:File:Ģederts Eliass - Karija with the Black Cat - Google Art Project.jpg (dated 1918, Latvian artist died 1975). Dcoetzee (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your work!
Came accross File:Bag - Google Art Project.jpg, which I don’t think qualifies for {{PD-Art}}, correct? Jean-Fred (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
3D objects as a rule don't, there is the photo copyright to consider in those cases --moogsi(blah) 18:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, killed that one. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool, nice job... whenever I've seen a "Google art project works by [Artist]" category I just made it a subcat of "[Artist]" or "Paintings by [Artist]". Should these be deleted if they find a home e.g. as in Category:Emmanuel Lambardos? I assume as hidden cats they are just for maintenance. Edit: I realize many of them may be used again in the future so perhaps it's best just to relate them somehow to their respective categories on Commons and leave them empty. (this is a bad idea for reasons stated below).
The images are usually vastly superior to what we already have:
but whenever I see dupes I don't speedy them on the basis that they are not exact dupes, and in consideration of Commons:Superseded_images_policy#Redundant.2Fbad_quality says.... requesting deletion for each one would create a *ton* of requests and would clog up COM:DR in an obnoxious way. Maybe the best way would be only to {{Universal replace}} stuff that is in use and tag the rest as {{superseded}} and deal with them later somehow...
Thanks for doing this! --moogsi(blah) 18:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Re dupes, yup that's exactly what I usually do. I usually avoid using CommonsDelinker and use my own replacer script instead, because CommonsDelinker takes a while and tries to tag the images afterwards with "you can delete this one now" which is really only appropriate for exact dupes (if you do use CommonsDelinker to replace, include some kind of message saying not to delete the original). Regarding artist categories: as long as all the images are actually paintings, putting it in a "paintings by" category is fine, but watch out for artists who also do etchings, drawings, etc. (in that case I'd just put it under [Artist]). I wouldn't move files out of these categories or delete them, because sometimes it's useful to browse all Google Art Project works by a particular artist. However: in many cases there are several categories for a single artist, and these should be merged. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I work on adding {{Creator}} on artworks where they are not, which is often the case on GAP paintings. I noticed there are a lot of informations and also "commons" fields, that are generally empty, on the top of the description of these files.
My question is : should I clean-up (i.e. replace autocompleted infos (with much calculating) by "hard-written" infos in "commons" fields) like I've seen some files recently, or is it better to leave all the Google infos, much of them being redundant ?
I've also "merged" many categories, using "Category-redirect" and Cat-a-lot, but I wonder how to "categorize" these files more : should I add the Artist name, the Museum name (since they are in hidden cat) ? --Hsarrazin (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I have a few comments on different topics stemming from the discussions above, speaking as someone who has spent a fair bit of time working with the GAP images and with visual arts files in general.
  • Hsarrazin, ideally the categories attached to an artwork will be at minimum "artist name"/"[works] by artist", a year or decade or century of production, the museum collection, and the topic/genre of the artwork (a vast set of categories of varying usefulness exists here). Second, adding to/cleaning up fields in the "commons_" section of the Google template is desirable (such as adding missing "Creator"s). I hope those are the questions you were asking.
  • I think the "Google Art Project works by [name]" categories should be kept permanently (and therefore not empty!), simply because they essentially say "here's a place to find very good quality images by this artist". The practice of most people at this point has been to simply attach the Google category to the artist's category, where one exists; and to merge multiple categories for the same artist into one (I added directions at the top of Category:Google Art Project works by artist to this effect). We do not remove hidden "source" categories in hundreds of other examples so I don't know why we would here. Boo-Boo Baroo (talk) 07:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
This all sounds about right. To clarify for Hsarrazin, the Google Art Project fields should not be modified or removed, but you are free to override them using the commons fields with more appropriate information, such as creator templates. Don't put institution templates in - instead put those in Template:Google Art Project institution so they automatically get applied to all files from that institution. Do please add categories for the artist/institution, even if they are already in hidden Google Art Project categories for artist and institution, and even if those categories are already subcategories of the appropriate artist/institution category. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Dcoetzee :) - that was precisely the meaning of my question… should I replace GAP info or just override them… and I will add categories… each time I will think ;) --Hsarrazin (talk) 21:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

A system for deleting obviously inferior reproductions of paintings

  • Most importantly, we desperately need to start deleting low-res reproductions of paintings when better reproductions exist. Hi-res images of paintings may have been uncommon when Commons started, but they aren't uncommon now, and we gain nothing while wasting effort and losing navigability by keeping the poor reproductions. Yet no one, including me, is going to start deletion discussions; they don't scale and few participate. It would be nice to develop a more efficient system for deleting the sub-par reproductions when we have 3, 4, 5 or more versions of the same painting. Painting reproductions that are clearly superseded by better images, and that are very low resolution or are blurry or have obvious color inaccuracy (e.g. oversaturation), should have a speedy deletion equivalent where the better files are pointed to, and if the reviewer/deleter agrees after some period of time has elapsed, and no one has objected, they're wiped. Artwork categorization is getting more and more jumbled by different images of the same artwork, some 50 kb, some 2 megabytes. Some users try to deal with this by adding custom sorts so that these images all appear together in a category, a practice which is undocumented, obviously not scaleable/maintainable, and confusing when looking for an image alphabetically by its filename. To be brief: two of the three skulls shown above need to go. :-) Is anyone else interested in developing a sane method of removing such files? Boo-Boo Baroo (talk) 07:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the guidelines as they stand are to avoid some cases where there is ambiguity. For example, many images with duplicates could have a version which is a perfect representation which is tiny, a giant high-res version with tons of detail, but everyone's skin is orange etc etc. In the case of the GAP images, almost all of them are unambiguously better in every way because (as I understand it) they have come from the museums' own digital collections. There is also the issue that a poor-quality image often has a better description, categorization, etc. For example, two of our skulls confidently date themselves to circa 1502, while the GAP one is dated to some point within Previtali's whole life (actually extending to about 10 years before he was born, by most accounts :). So you have to consider the 2 types of data you are dealing with --moogsi(blah) 09:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I do think the system you propose is a good one, with the stipulation that the tagger actually makes some effort to consolidate metadata, so the reviewer only has to review the file pages and not spend time moving cats and descriptions around --moogsi(blah) 10:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Very strong oppose. This discussion pops up once in a while, see Commons:Superseded images policy#Redundant/bad quality. We need to highlight our (very) good pictures, not delete the not so good images. Don't start nominating images for deleting, this will waste a lot of community time and will cause a lot of frustration. Also see User:Multichill/Next generation categories. Multichill (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I hope no-one is thinking of nominating anything... I thought this discussion was about why that's a bad idea! How does the new category system make the existence of these images irrelevant? Thanks, moogsi(blah) 14:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I see -- like every other wiki project these days, nothing here can ever change. Multichill provides no actual argument, just a link. Did you not notice, Multichill, that the idea was to invent some sort of rational process that might not take up a bunch of time like deletion requests? Does anyone here read? And moogsi, you divided my comment into a subheading, appeared to show some support for it ("I do think the system you propose is a good one"), and now you write "I thought this discussion was about why [deleting files is] a bad idea". Huh? To answer your question, yes of course categories and file data would be merged. There is no merit in keeping every 50 kB superseded PD reproduction of a two-dimensional object, but let's keep cluttering up the categorization system with those files as we head to 20 million files. Boo-Boo Baroo (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You say "head[ing] to 20 million files" as though it is a bad thing? This is a file repository, the idea is to increase the number of files, millions is a trivial number, I expect it will grow to billions. Cluttered categories?, create a subcategory. Why do we keep multiple (inferior?) versions, well licensing is one reason - files get deleted because it is subsequently found that the file wasn't free, it's good to have backups. I acknowledge some files are bad blurry`etc, and we can get rid of unusable images through the deletion process, but I find it difficult to envisage a streamlined system, especially one involving deleting things that have been nominated as inferior just because no one has opposed the deletion. In terms of the amount of work involved, it is far less work, and takes up far less resources, to simply categorize those images than go through any rigorous culling process. We initially had a system where people would create galleries of the best images on any particular topic, but in general that proves to be too high a maintenance load for people here (ie the gallery is created, but few people have the time to maintain the gallery), perhaps rather than trying to cull all inferior images, we can achieve the desired result by creating a category tree for the "best" images for any particular topic. --Tony Wills (talk) 21:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
"In terms of the amount of work involved, it is far less work, and takes up far less resources, to simply categorize those images than go through any rigorous culling process." What you are suggesting is a culling process, except you mark what is good instead of removing what is unnecessary. How is there any less rigour? I'd venture that applying criteria for what is best, and creating and maintaining whatever system you use to mark bestness would actually be more work. Those "best" images need to be curated for ever or they will not be the best. It's equivalent, except you end up with more of a mess than when you started and an extra, perpetual debt of maintenance --moogsi(blah) 22:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Multichill was talking about not nominating images, which I take to mean sending them to COM:DR. I do not say "deleting". I am in favour of deleting. Nominating is not deleting. I was just astonished they can 'very strongly oppose' and talk like I'm thinking of doing something that I have gone as far as to call "obnoxious", instead of trying to think of a way to avoid doing it, which is what I thought I was doing. Didn't read a single word :) --moogsi(blah) 21:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
It would be great if the system could cluster (nearly) identical images in various formats (svg, png, gif, ...) and resolutions as one item, having by default the best upfront displayed. --Foroa (talk) 12:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking the same. Current pattern recognition methods can easily group (nearly) identical images together. Building an index from from however many millions of images there are would have to be considered: whether the servers could reasonably do it, or if it could be offloaded somehow. In fact I don't know whether MediaWiki already uses image recognition in some way --moogsi(blah) 19:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Clustering images is relatively easy, identifying the best of a set isn't - we'd still need some way to tag those (we have VI but that's too heavyweight). Dcoetzee (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Interesting... There's already stuff in place to draw people's attention to other versions of an image, but to automatically mark things as "superseded" would be difficult, because as you say the "best" image, if there is one, may be hard to determine automatically. Perhaps automatically populating the "Other versions" field of the info template with images that are visually similar, above a high certainty? Of course that still has feasibility problems, but it would at least satisfy those who don't want to delete anything ever, regardless of its usefulness. --moogsi(blah) 08:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

This is my last word in case anyone wants to dig this up. As Boo-Boo Baroo initially said, these images do cause a problem when using the site. I'm lazy so I'll use the skulls as an example. Say I think skulls are cool so I'm looking at Category:Vanitas Category:Paintings of Vanitas. I might find one or two of the above images scattered around there, but when I click on one it isn't very good. I shouldn't have to think, "I wonder if there is a better version of this image somewhere." But let's say that I'm aware that there might be cos I've seen dupes before. I could look at the artist and (hopefully) if they're in his paintings category and not his main category then I will find them all (after looking through the whole thing). Of course I have to look at each page separately because I don't know which one is best from the thumbs. (Imagine that someone hasn't helpfully marked these images as superseded since this topic started :). Why don't I just search for it? Even though I shouldn't have to, there are reasons why I might not even find it that way, I have to sift through the results. OK well what about curated collections or marking the "best" images? The gallery Vanitas quite rightly has this work because it's an awesome picture of a skull. Is it a good version of the image? Is it the best one we have? The fact I can find counter-arguments using an example I effectively pulled out of my arse should tell you everything you need to know.

Objections to fixing this seem to assume:

  • Images of the same artwork magically categorize themselves in the same way, and probably appear somewhere near each other even if they are in the same category
  • 4 images are more likely to have better metadata and categorization than 1, or if they don't, then there is 0 cost in ensuring that they do
  • These images don't actually cause any problems

The reason for this topic isn't neatfreakery or whatever. It's not just deleting for the hell of it. It's a usability problem. And it's not made-up. It causes enough problems that people feel the need to work around it. Even if there were a way to cluster them together in software then I would be fine with that.

I'm kind of disappointed that this can be dismissed as a waste of effort, saying we need to highlight our good content, when this is exactly the kind of effort that leads people to good content. We are after all talking about images of images, a case where it is possible to have an unambiguously better picture, and, while a significant proportion of Commons images, far from the majority. --moogsi(blah) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I do agree that deletion of inferior images is useful, particularly in light of issues like forking of metadata. However, it is quite tricky to determine when this is actually okay to do. In many cases images of paintings have different colours, and there is no way to identify which image's colours are most accurate (I've seen people incessantly fighting over which Mona Lisa digitization is most accurate). In some cases a higher resolution image actually contains less information because it's less sharp. And last but not least, sometimes an image that looks very similar is actually an image of a different version of the work from a different museum, or even a worthless hand-painted copy (for example, I recently deleted a 1962 copy by a minor artist of a Laszlo painting from 1919). Although I frequently globally replace images by images that I think are better, I rarely have the confidence to nominate other versions for deletion. I think a better long-term solution for the metadata problems is easy, effective sharing of metadata between multiple images of the same work, and easy browsing between versions, which is possible now with the right templates and categories but rather arduous. Dcoetzee (talk) 20:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
(Making a mockery of my own "last word" :) -- "Artwork namespace!" (no, only kidding!) Having looked at this a bit more, there are many many case where the image is obviously better (note topic title). But there are plenty where it's not clear at all. There is also the problem of "obviousness" being subjective. It was really inspired by many of the GAP images being so much better than a postage stamp version we already have. The observation about direct copies or versions is also dead on (I almost mistook this for this from the thumbnails). A more direct way to group files would be better. The problem is that in the scheme of things this is a small proportion of images on Commons, and I'm not sure what else that kind of functionality would be useful for. Grouping the same image in different formats, perhaps? There are plenty of tif/png images with an identical jpg version. (e.g. images from NARA) --moogsi (blah) 11:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I see that the NARA images have their own workaround so they don't appear everywhere twice: Category:NARA TIF images with categorized JPGs --moogsi (blah) 14:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

{{Extract image}}

Hey, has this gotten the wrong translation attached to it or something? I get the impression this is supposed to ask for an extracted image, but it actually just says one could extract one if you wanted. Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I've always used it as a way to request image extractions. Images with the template is categorized into category:Images requiring extraction. While on the subject of {{Extract image}} and {{Remove border}}, it might be a good idea to link from these templates to a policy/guideline dealing with cropping/extracting. --Bensin (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that's how it's meant to be used, but the actual text it puts on the file page just says it's possible to extract an image, and tells people to see... itself... for more information. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The self-reference must be a mistake... A link to Commons:Media_for_cleanup#Unnecessary_borders seems more appropriate. Would you perhaps be willing to expand that section with something along the lines of what you wrote on my talk page? I think that would be helpful. --Bensin (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Good update here. Thanks! I'm not sure I agree with the bullet point on not cropping featured pictures, but as long as it doesn't rule out image extraction, I don't have much of a problem with it. I rephrased it as a rule of thumb. Hope that's OK. If not, just revert. --Bensin (talk) 18:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
It's generally a bad idea to modify featured pictures after their promotion too much. After all, you don't want a different picture being on the list than the one promoted. Adam Cuerden (talk) 04:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I've reverted changes to featured pictures before myself. The featured picture is the one agreed upon at that time, not a modification done at a later date. Any featured picture modifications should always be uploaded as a new image. That way the new image can be used in articles as its own entity whilst preserving what was previously featured. Huntster (t @ c) 07:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with you, Adam, but I also wish cropping of unnecessary borders was performed before FP-promotion. That the community considers what exactly is to be promoted. The jpg-images in Category:William Edward Frank Britten for instance. Naturally there is room for both versions, with and without frames, on Commons, but in my opinion it is the image of the artwork that should be promoted, not the image of the artwork medium. Does that make sense? --Bensin (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
But the drawn border is part of the artwork, and the contrast between the photogravure and paper a key part of the medium. Adam Cuerden (talk) 06:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, a somewhat generous border makes it far easier to reuse images, since there's more freedom of shape of the print, since there's something that can be cropped other than the image. If you want to print to the edge of the paper, not having a border often results in really bad printing. Adam Cuerden (talk) 06:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I understand why you want to keep the borders. But in my oppinion, images extracted from the jpg-images in Category:William Edward Frank Britten would be better images. An image without blank borders is a better image in my view. Like I said, it is the images of the artwork, not an image of the medium, that should be promoted. --Bensin (talk) 15:54, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

PNG display

Anyone feel like dealing with the incompetent idiots at bugzilla to try and get them to stop making PNGs look awful by sharpening JPEG thumbnails, but not PNGs? Look at this: File:Émile Bertrand - Jules Massenet - Cendrillon poster.png. That's blurry as hell, and it's not the image, it's the incompetence of Wikipedia's code. Do any PNGs that aren't very near the size they're displayed look at all good on Wikipedia? I'm honestly getting damn tired of having to fight against the incompetence of Wikipedia's coders all the damn time, instead of being able to actually do work to improve free knowledge. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Sharpening all PNGs is a very very bad idea. It's inappropriate to apply sharpening to diagrams, charts, and text, among other things. Distinguishing photographic PNGs from these types of PNGs cannot be done automatically. Additionally, PNG thumbnails of photographic images have another serious problem: they are PNG files! These tend to be much larger than JPEG thumbnails of the same images, greatly increasing load time of pages they're used on. This is why I created {{JPEG version of PNG}} and {{PNG with JPEG version}}. What we actually need from Mediawiki is the ability to override both the file format and the sharpening settings on a file-by-file basis (and possibly on a use-by-use basis) in order to produce thumbnails with consistently good filesize and aesthetic appearance. In the meantime, I suggest uploading a JPEG version and using my templates as a workaround, as I have done for many years. Dcoetzee (talk) 13:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Would it really look worse if sharpening was applied? Would text really look worse if sharpening was applied?
I decided to do a test. Checking en-wiki, I found this featured picture with lots of text. File:Germany general map.png I converted it to JPEG and reuploaded it. File:Germany general map.jpg. The images certainly look different, but is the blurrier one actually better? I honestly think that we're sacrificing most of Wikipedia's PNG uploads on the altar of a few images of a sort that should have been SVG in the first place. Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Adam Cuerden -- There have been a number of issues with image resizing over the years (most notably the long drawn-out GIF fiasco), but PNG thumbnailing has actually improved quite a bit in recent years (such as with File:Shield of Trinity Aveling 1891.png, which produces a quite nice thumbnail now, as opposed to how it would have been under the old PNG resizing algorithm). You've been riding this hobby-horse of sharpened PNG thumbnails for a number of years now, but I really don't know that there's a great demand for it (certainly not as a one-size-fits-all solution, as explained by Dcoetzee), and I don't see what's to be gained at this point by throwing around terms such as "incompetent idiots"... AnonMoos (talk) 13:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you've seen fit to move this from above my response to here, as if I didn't include your points in my reply above. However, since you ask: There has been a fix for large PNGs for abouut 7 years now - several, in fact - that they have never bothered to finish implementing, instead waiting for the creator of one fix to leave, then creating a new solution, not finishing the testing of that either, and creating a third solution. That is incompetent and idiotic. All of these fixes apparently worked, they just can't be bothered to actually get the work done to implement. Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I can understand Adam Cuerdens anger just too much. Another very clear example (in the gallery) I'm also tired and angry about Bugzilla overall. -- ΠЄΡΉΛΙΟ 14:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Adam, I really don't understand the logic of your actions. Sure there are a lot of bugs that aren't fixed simply due to limited resources, and i understand that is frustrating. However at this point, a major contributing factor to the bugs you are particularly interested in not being fixed is that you have bullied and verbally abused anybody intetested in fixing the bugs you want fixed. Devs are people too. Like most people, we do not tolerate verbal abuse. (So I am not misunderstood, by verbal abuse I mean actual verbal abuse. Expressing frustration in a civilized manner is not verbal abuse and perfectly acceptable). I can only speak for myself, but I imagine i'm not alone here when I say that the primary affect of verbal abuse will be to put your pet bug at the bottom of the very large pile of open bugs. --Bawolff (talk) 21:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It's been 7 years since these bugs were raised. I'm pretty sure at this point pointing out incompetence is not going to actually delay anything, although I'm sure it makes a convenient excuse to pretend that's the case. Adam Cuerden (talk) 21:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be by far the most vocal person demanding PNG thumbnail sharpening, but while this would be a good thing for some images, it's by no means clear that it would be a good thing for all images. The maximum pixel size limit on a resizable PNG or GIF is certainly annoying, but it does not significantly interfere with the ability of Commons or Wikipedia to achieve their basic intended purposes. The GIF fiasco seriously impacted on the core functionality of Commons/Wikipedia, but neither of these two problems does -- they would be nice little "extras", but they don't make-or-break Wikimedia. And meanwhile, PNG thumbnailing has actually improved significantly in several other respects, as seen from File:Shield of Trinity Aveling 1891.png. So there's a mixed bag of good and bad with more work to do -- but NOT an immediate crisis, so I'm not sure what trying to pretend that it's an immediate crisis really achieves. I don't hang out too much at bugzilla, and am not really aware of the politics there (of the two bugs I've reported, Bug 4388 was resolved within a few months, while Bug 27832 has not been), but it's possible that "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" (as they used to say)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Please rename file

File:Geraki Εργαστήρι ΜΜΕ ΑΠΘ 10 12 2012.ogg to File:Geraki & Chomwitt ΤΕΙ Λάρισας 09 10 2011.ogg. --Γλαύκος 17:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Template:Rename. I would do it for you, but would probably spell it wrong. Note that you need a number for the reason: Template:File renaming reasons--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
And the reason is : #1 Uploader request. --Γλαύκος 10:21, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Trouble with uploading new versions

Hi there. I'm relatively new to Wikimedia Commons, and I'm having a bit of trouble. Two of the files I've uploaded (ArlingtonPark.jpg and ElmwoodAve.jpg) I decided were too dark, so I lightened them up a little bit and selected "Upload a new version of this file".

Now the full-res version of the files are lighter, but the other resolutions - and the thumbnails on the Wikivoyage pages they link to - are still showing the original, darker version of the pictures.

Is there something I need to do (other than just wait)? If there's a Help page on this topic, I didn't come across it.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some problems with thumbnail generation on new file versions at the moment. For File:ArlingtonPark.jpg and File:ElmwoodAve.jpg new versions showed up fine for me, with the exception of the 375px thumb on voy:en:Buffalo. Help:Purge#Advanced manual thumbnail purging followed by browser forced reload solved the problem for me. MKFI (talk) 20:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
It's completely fucked! I'm making a total mess trying to update File:Mecodema oconnori.jpg to the "black and white" version I uploaded ... nothing works ... Stho002 (talk) 22:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Convenience link: File:Mecodema oconnori.jpg.
Looks like your B&W is there. This is the much-reported thumbnail/cache problem. Just give it time (like, days), it will sort itself out. - Jmabel ! talk 01:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
It is there, but I can't make it the current version, and reverting does nothing ... Stho002 (talk) 04:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Please don't revert, that will only make it take longer until it finally settles out to the correct version. - Jmabel ! talk 05:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Now it shows different versions in different places! I suppose at least it is doing something! Stho002 (talk) 05:30, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm having what I think is a related problem. Last night I uploaded a new version of File:41st Can Senate.svg to replace two red boxes with two white ones, for a total of six white boxes. Tonight it still displayed the previous version (the one with four white boxes), so I assumed I uploaded the wrong file. To test, I downloaded the then-current version. The downloaded version was in fact the old version. I then, being careful to pick the right file, uploaded again. Then I noticed that the thumb for the version I uploaded yesterday has six white boxes. This means that despite two attempts to update, a version from December is still being used as the current version in every way (display on the file page, transclusion to articles, and download). I have tried purging and hard rebooting, and nothing works. I've even had another editor check it out and he sees four white boxes, not six. Why is it taking more than 24 hours for a file to update? -Rrius (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
My file is linked to both Wikipedia and Wikispecies. Now, it shows as the desired B&W version in both places, EXCEPT that if you click on it you get a big coloured version! The main image on the file page here is coloured, but the current version in the history shows as B&W! Stho002 (talk) 06:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Clear your Browser cache or force a reload in your Browser. To get a thumb update it often helpt to edit the article in question and hit preview - the preview thumb is usually smaller than standard article thumb and often convinces Mediawiki and the browser to get it's cached version updated. --Denniss (talk) 06:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
None of these suggestions is helping on my end. Perhaps you can try? It's File:41st Can Senate.svg. -07:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
No, nothing works! Stho002 (talk) 07:50, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
It looks like the thumb has updated, but not the main file ... Stho002 (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Quite. Is this unheard of? -Rrius (talk) 08:22, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

This problem has been recurring for about a month now. There's no way to fix it (you just have to wait), but one way to sometimes get around it is to request an "odd" thumbnail size which has not been previously requested before (e.g. 221px instead of 220px, 799px instead of 800px, whatever works)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:50, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Except that the problem isn't with the thumbs, but rather with the main file image ... Stho002 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

In a few hours, it will have been three days since the image was updated. The thumbs are correct, but the main image is wrong. It is wrong on the file's page, it is wrong when displayed in articles across Wikimedia, and it is wrong when you download the file by right clicking or using the download button at the file's page. -Rrius (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Note, you can try as a work around appending random stuff to the end of the url. For example instead of . I know that really doesn't help very much, and that this is a really frustrating situation. 15:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
My main image file has finally updated ... Stho002 (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This is supposed to be the village pump. Will someone with some technical knowledge please either fix this or explain why the image hasn't updated after four days and why it can't be fixed? If I can't get that basic information here, will someone tell me where I can? -Rrius (talk) 03:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Tim Starling made some changes to the program that's responsible for making sure that when the caching server gets a message to remove an image from cache, it removes it from the caching server (That's a simplification). Thus it should hopefully be fixed now, and hopefully not happen again. bugzilla:43448 has technical details, along with bugzilla:41130. (The first bug more has details about what is actually wrong, where the second is mostly a bunch of it doesn't work reports). Bawolff (talk) 16:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Additionally, if any images are still wrong, they should be fixable by doing 2 steps:

Can someone tell me if this problem is being worked worked on and when (approx) it will be fixed? Because if this persists then it will radically changed the way upload pictures, maps and other images here on commons, as it in essence makes it impossible to update images. The way around it would then to simply upload new versions separately but that then creates a whole new problem with tens of thousands of duplicate images. 09:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

In theory this was fixed a few hours ago. What images are still broken? --Nemo 10:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
File:Concourse, Kidderminster Town railway station - DSCF0837.JPG I've attempted to upload the brighter version twice, but for me the darker versions appear to persist in a number of browsers. Regards Rept0n1x (talk) 11:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
In fact the earlier of the two new uploads is now showing the correct version, but the subsequent upload (where I also uploaded the brighter version) is still showing the original dark version. I will try purging/refreshing again sometime later. Rept0n1x (talk) 11:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, just to mention I can tell it's definitely the brighter version which has been uploaded in the recent revision, although the darker version is still being displayed. This is because the file sizes are 3.25MB for the re-encoded brighter version and just 2.8MB for the original. Rept0n1x (talk) 11:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding File:Concourse, Kidderminster Town railway station - DSCF0837.JPG, after several hours, I tried purging and the flushing the browser's cache (and trying a new browser), but the problem still persisted. So, I reverted back to the previous bright version of the file (which appears correctly). Finally, that has had the effect of making the aforementioned following revision appear correctly for the first time today. In essence, the bug seems to be that all revisions except the latest revision are shown correctly. The latest revision alone wrongly shows the original dark file. I'm pretty sure if I reverted the latest revision again, I would find that all previous revisions except the latest revision would then show up correctly. Bit of a strange one! Rept0n1x (talk) 18:30, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
E.g. for still broken: VisaFreetoCyprusPassport.png, which shows the old version despite of update. Travelbird (talk) 12:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Checked it again this morning. Unfortunately, the problem still persists on the aforementioned file File:Concourse, Kidderminster Town railway station - DSCF0837.JPG. The wrong revision is being shown on all thumbnails and on the original-sized image (on multiple browsers and after clearing client-side caches). Also tried adding a random dummy query string onto the end of the URL, as suggested above by This trick does show the correct file - meaning it's apparently the exact same server-side caching problem as described above, but still not fixed. The file in question is now in use on wikivoyage and I did not want the sub-standard original file to persist on the live article, so I have taken it upon myself to upload another slightly-different brightness-corrected version of the file under a different name and modified the article accordingly. At least the good version finally appears in the live article now. I'll be happy to commence deletion procedures on the original file, once this technical issue has been resolved. Best Regards Rept0n1x (talk) 07:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid this doesn't seem to be fixed, as I've also just run into this problem with Gnathan87 (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Is this still an issue now? user:Bawolff 18:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I still have this problem with an image I revised on 15 January 2013 (File:Islamist_fighters_in_northern_Mali2.PNG). It has been over two weeks, and the new version still does not appear. I tried two different browsers, and cleared the cache, but still see the old version. Oddly the thumbnail in my File list shows the new version. Also, the trick of adding junk at the end of the URL shows the new version, but that does not help the actual articles that use the image. Like other authors, I initially suspected that I uploaded the wrong file, but when I viewed the File history, it showed the smaller size of the revised image (434 KB) so I knew I uploaded the correct file, even though the thumbnail had not changed. This is a serious problem and should be fixed. Authors will think they uploaded the wrong file and upload more revisions. And people viewing the File history comments will think the author made a mistake since the thumbnail (and original image) appear to be the same. They may even upload another revision, not knowing that the current version is different than what appears. CuriousEric 18:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I tweaked the image width in w:Northern Mali conflict (2012–present) and think I succeeded in forcing a 240 px thumbnail from the new version. Of course this perturbs the layout of the article. See if you think it worked. Dankarl (talk) 18:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I think the problem is intermittent. Five minutes ago, I performed a purge and a client-side clear of the browser cache. I was very happy to see that the above Kidderminster photo and the Mali photo were showing correct thumbnails for all versions and also in all wikis using the photos. I was for a moment convinced that the problem was fixed. Five minutes later however and I'm seeing the wrong thumbnails again for both files. Rept0n1x (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The main file page File:Islamist_fighters_in_northern_Mali2.PNG now shows the newest revision, some progress has been made. But it's File history still shows the old thumbnail for the new version. The article w:Northern Mali conflict (2012–present) also shows the old image in the thumbnail. Again, using two different browsers and clearing cache. CuriousEric 21:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The File history and article thumbnails now show the newest version. CuriousEric 23:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I too have the same problem for my File:Moscow metro map ru sb future.svg. I think a temporary "remedy" to force (or trick) the wiki software to update the thumbnail is to change the dimension of the image slightly before uploading. Prior to this, not only the description page thumbnail image, but the source SVG file was not updated as well. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

How about now? Leslie just fixed another issue, so hopefully this is all resolved. Bawolff (talk) 23:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to be working now. Although I did have to re-upload the images I updated as the intermediate updates are shown in the history and the thumbnails, but aren't actually shown as the actual picture until you re-upload the new version. Travelbird (talk) 07:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
If there are any images that were uploaded when things were broken, and still aren't showing, following the steps at Help:Purge should definitely fix them now. Bawolff (talk) 15:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I haven't uploaded any new file versions since it was fixed, but regarding pictures uploaded during the problem, they appear to be completely and reliably fixed now. Thank you to the fixers! Rept0n1x (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

January 19

Question about artistic expression

Question about artistic expression: Would this image here be acceptable to upload to Wikimedia Commons as a form of satire and artistic expression and freely licensed as such on Flickr, or is it too close to Mr. Hankey to be acceptable? Checking here first, -- Cirt (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Please note that this question follows a discussion on Cirt's talkpage about their uploads of images of Mr. Hankey. I was quite surprise to see that Cirt had uploaded these images, since we had previously had a discussion about this very topic in which Cirt expressed some rather interesting justifications of what were clearly derivative works. The Flickr image that Cirt asks about here is another obvious example. The images were subsequently deleted. Would someone mind deleting everything in Category:Mr. Hankey, the Christmas Poo? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The 2 cosplay ones look fine, and one of them has already been kept in a previous DR. The "fudgie" things barely resemble the actual character; if they weren't labeled or categorized as Hankey, I'd hardly know what they're going for, so I might question DW in the case of these 4 images. INeverCry 00:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I think anyone familiar with the character would recognize it in all of these images, even without the aid of the category. Of course, you are free to say otherwise. Is it safe to assume that you think File:Cake inspired by Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo.jpg is an obvious case of derivative work? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I think you should open a DR for the files you feel are derivatives, otherwise we're spinning our wheels a bit. INeverCry 00:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not really sure which ones specifically Delicious carbuncle thinks are "derivative", they're inspired by the phenomenon perhaps, but not similar enough to the character in question really at all. -- Cirt (talk) 00:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to be opening a DR for the files, INeverCry. If you and Cirt are happy having these derivative works on Commons and will argue against deleting them with such obviously disingenuous arguments as you have offered here, then it is not worth the aggravation. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Broken image report...

File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz AP-122.jpg is broken. Linking to it gets a blank page and a NoScript cross-site scripting warning - and a space before the .jpg. I think the space before the .jpg is the problem as I've seen something similar in the past. - The Bushranger (talk) 04:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz (AP-122).jpg and File:USNS General Daniel I. Sultan (T-AP-120).jpg, with parentheses? File:USS Admiral W. S. Sims (AP-127).jpg on en.wikipedia? -- Asclepias (talk) 05:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
That's mighty peculiar, as the links from do not have the parens - but say the file is on commons! - The Bushranger (talk) 05:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Sounds like your NoScript extension is broken/causing problems. Do you have the issues you are describing with that extension disabled? Just to clarify, you think that File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz AP-122.jpg should exist on commons? There are no log entries to indicate that it was ever uploaded to commons. Bawolff (talk)`
I haven't tried it with it disabled yet, but it appears to be something to do with the links being broken. Here's how things are. The link from the ship's page on Wikipedia is at "File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz (AP-122).jpg". However, when I click on the "description page there" link, I get taken to this, which is labled "File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz AP-122 .jpg". The file on Commons actually exists at File:USS Admiral R. E. Coontz (AP-122).jpg, as it should be - and where the link on the Wikipedia file page actually points. It's very strange. - The Bushranger (talk) 09:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

File moving is broken at Commons

See en:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#File redirects broken and User:PrimeHunter/sandbox. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I also noticed it a few days ago when moving a file but I thought I was doing something wrong. --Nemo 22:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
The same symptoms as reported in bug 42582 but purge/edit does not make them disappear. -- Rillke(q?) 11:48, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The problem has been fixed for me. All images now display at User:PrimeHunter/sandbox. Bug 42582 is about a different problem when displaying Commons files at other wikis. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:48, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

February 2

Walsall Labour Party is Open Licensed

In response to my blog post Politician pin ups – open-licensed pictures, please the Walsall (England) Labour Party have open-licensed their website, including their photographs of councillors. Andy Mabbett (talk) 12:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

CC-BY sounds perfect. :-) Good job. Dcoetzee (talk) 03:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Wingnut idea

Is it possible to have categories sort by image size? File size is not always an indication of pixel x pixel size. If it has been brought up before and shot down then just resolve this section. --Canoe1967 (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Its been brought up before. It hasn't necessarily been shot down, but no one has actually done it, and its not immediately obvious what the best approach is. See bugzilla:40870 for details. Personally I think this could be done by adding a custom collation class. However that would be a hacky solution as the current code assumes pages sorting depends solely on its sortkey. (Liangent has been working on allowing categories to have multiple sorting methods, primarily because different sorting orders are important in chinese, so the allow a category to be sorted in multiple ways part may be coming to MediaWiki soon). Bawolff (talk) 03:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
You can run sql database enquiries like that very easy, but only if you download the database first. The images themselves are about 22TB, but the data you are after, I think is called metadata and is a lot smaller and easy to download. (all the text on en.wikipedia can be held in RAM on some computers, text is so small). I could give you some other similar pointers by email if you like. Some editors have done this kind of thing in the past. Penyulap 10:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Pulling links from Wikidata into LangSwitch?

I recently added a Wikipedia link to Creator:Ivan Nikolaevich Kramskoi. However, there are a whole lot more links to Wikipedias in other languages, a list which is (currently) available both at and Wikidata. Now, my questions are:

  1. Instead of adding all of those links manually, is it possible just to pull the list from d: somehow?
  2. Or, even better, instead of retrieving them on a one-off basis, is it possible to set up some sort of live transclusion from d:, such that the template automatically keep itself updated, should any new Wikipedia articles on Kramskoi appear in the future?

Thanks, It Is Me Here t / c 12:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

1. and 2. Yes, it will be possible : Wikidata will introduce a new parser function that allows template to get all data of the Wikidata database. Tpt (talk) 14:04, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Do you know roughly when, at all? It Is Me Here t / c 14:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
As far as I know, Wikidata client extension is installed only on three Wikipedia (Hungarian, Hebrew, Italian) now. You need to ask for schedule details on Wikidata. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Bots maintain/update/complete interlanguage links at the gallery and category level, so this is the best place for now. Unfortunately, the links are not included in the search database for some unknown reasons. This would help tremendously in making Commons a translation engine. --Foroa (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Creator templates currently use LangSwitch in the name field to add links to Wikipedia articles, same for Category:Multilingual tags: Locations templates, institution templates, etc. All of those will probably switch to using wikidata as a source of interwiki links when it become available. Half of creator templates already have wikidata links (see Category:Creator templates without Wikidata link‎) in anticipation of this functionality. --Jarekt (talk) 13:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Creator names on different language could be fetched from Wikidata item's labels.
Also today's planned deployment of new version of Wikidata server software will add limited support for properties. It I'm not mistaken, portraits and place of birth/death should be supported.
EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)


A user uploaded a new file File:AMRHeadquartersFortWorth0.jpg in place of a file I uploaded (and properly credited), without changing the relevant information. Should it just be reverted? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Reverted. New file should be uploaded under another name.  B.p. 18:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Share alike and Wikivoyage licence

The chosen logo for the Wikivoyage project is a derivative work of the following logos:

However the official logos seems to be released in licences not compatible with CC-BY-SA File:Wikivoyage-logo-en.svg. It's copyright and trademarked by WMF without any licence which seems not ok for me. --PierreSelim (talk) 10:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as I understand Creative Commons license, any derivative work must have the same license as the original. Therefore, I have changed the license there to CC-BY-SA 3.0. --A.Savin 11:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
In some cases, a derivative work may have a stricter license than the original, but CC-BY-SA does not allow that. - Jmabel ! talk 16:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Apparently the authors have transfered the rights to WMF m:Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Legal_issue_with_this_logo which legally makes it OK, but his really against the spirit of having free licences. And well we can still modify the cc-by-sa version to write wikivoyage below and release it under cc-by-sa, which makes this situation absurd. --PierreSelim (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
You cannot simply change the license of a work to CC-BY-SA, even if it's based on CC-BY-SA works, unless you are the copyright holder. See Commons:Viral licenses are not automatic. So I've reverted the change to File:Wikivoyage-logo-en.svg. WMF is free to release this work under a proprietary license, because it's acquired rights to the works it was based on (therefore it does not need to assent to the license in order to use them). I believe it is the wrong way to protect their brand and deeply inconsistent with our values, but they're not going to change it any time soon. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
How can the authors contract away the SA part of the license? Aren't they bound by it too, and thus must share the original and its derivatives under the CC-BY-SA license? And, even if not, why in the world is WMF-copyrighted content hosted here, when we specifically say that Commons is only for free content that can thus be reused? Why isn't it hosted on their wiki, whether or
Also, are there any sources for that essay? Because I've always heard that the copyright holder automatically has the rights to derivatives (allowing things like what happens on YouTube where the copyright owner forces you to run ads for them). More importantly, has it been tested in court? If we're going to be giving what amounts to legal advice (in the colloquial, not legal, sense), it would be good if we'd source it properly. Otherwise, I could just as easily write another essay that says the exact opposite and it would seem just as valid. Trlkly (talk) 08:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If it has been available under CC-BY-SA at some point, then it remains under CC-BY-SA forever, and no one can prevent that. If the copyright holder creates a derivative work, the copyright holder is not required to publish the derivative work under CC-BY-SA, but if anyone else creates a derivative work, then the derivative work has to be made available under CC-BY-SA unless you get permission from the copyright holder. --Stefan4 (talk) 09:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If I create a new work, I own the copyright to it. I can upload it myself (e.g. to Commons) under a CC-BY-SA license, but that doesn't prevent me from licensing it to others under different terms. So, if someone wants to make a non-free derivative of that work, they can with my permission. The point of that essay is that there's a third possibility, which is that the derivative may be a copyvio. CC-BY-SA offers people a way to create derivative works without getting special permission from the underlying copyright holder, but if the derivative create chooses not to go through either of those routes, the result is not that they unintentionally release their work as CC-BY-SA, the result is a copyvio. cmadler (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

It's clear that the WMF has acquired the copyright (m:Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Legal_issue_with_this_logo) and can do whatever they want to with the image, including creating derivatives, without any reference to the CC-BY-SA license. But, with regard to non-copyright holders, the essay Commons:Viral licenses are not automatic is just dangerous nonsense IMHO and does not represent anything but the author's mistaken opinion. The basic idea seems to be that you can just ignore a CC-BY-SA license and there is nothing that anybody can do about it except the copyright holder, thus the copyright/license violator can sue to enforce his "new copyright" against anybody who creates a derivative. That scenario is entirely copyright paranoia. Stealing a copyrighted work cannot create a new copyright. Anybody who sues to enforce a copyright based upon a "claim" to a stolen copyright would be thrown out of court faster than you can say "unclean hands". Claiming that there is some kind of enforceable "new copyright" would simply invalidate the entire idea of CC-BY-SA, so I do not think anybody claiming to represent Wikimedia Commons in any way should put forth any such nonsense. Smallbones (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

All derivative works have a new copyright (on the new contributions of the derivative work, at least when such contributions rise above the threshold of originality). It is always the case that only the copyright holder can enforce their rights, and nobody else. What is "dangerous" is modifying the license on a file when you are not the copyright holder, because anyone who depends upon that invalid license will be liable for any resulting infringement penalties, criminal and civil. As far as I know the unclean hands doctrine would be of little use in a criminal infringement case, and I'd question whether it would be applied in a civil case as well. I don't have reliable sources to cite for the essay, but I did have at least a couple attorneys with IP experience look at it and they said it was correct. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
See en:Copyright misuse for a list of cases where the principle has been applied. I don't think that you are even technically correct that " It is always the case that only the copyright holder can enforce their rights, and nobody else," for example in restraint of trade cases. But as a practical matter, just ignoring obvious cases of copyfraud the main way to enforce the original licenses and copyrights - if nobody takes a claim that results in copyfraud seriously, then the copyfraud can't be enforced. Now you go further - stating that when the license violator simply ignores the CC-BY-SA license, that we must asume he has a copyright, even when he doesn't make any direct copyright claim. The law makes no such demand, and to the contrary by precedent says that we can ignore any such implied copyright claims, as - if these unclean claims were made in court - they would be unenforceable. Smallbones (talk) 14:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm simply claiming that the creator of a derivative work possesses rights to any novel elements they introduce in the derivative work (upon fixation without the need for an explicit claim) and that such elements can't be used without a license from them (and so the derivative work as a whole also cannot be used without a license from them, unless their contributions are minimal). I'm not claiming they possess any rights to the original work or any elements of the original work found in the derivative work (any such claim would be copyfraud). The remainder of my claim is simply that the copyright holder of the derivative work cannot be compelled to release it under a free license, but if they fail to do so that they are in breach of the original work's license. That is all. Dcoetzee (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Your claims effectively give a thief property rights over the fruit of his theft. Such a right is totally in your imagination, it is completely unenforceable and it would nullify the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license in many cases. Thus I find it offensive and think that you have to remove the essay. Smallbones (talk) 12:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that Dcoetzee's claims sound stranger than sending a cease and desist letter to someone for violating the copyright of graffiti which you have illegally painted on a wall (cf. fr:Wikipédia:Legifer/mars 2012#Image de graffiti et ADAGP). Also, in some cases, the use of the image might qualify as fair use, and then you can ignore the licence in its entirety. --Stefan4 (talk) 13:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
More wild imaginings. Smallbones (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Technically, isn't the Wikivoyage wordmark below the threshold of originality, and hence the entire logo would continue to be under the irrevocable CC-BY-SA license of File:Travel Guide Logo - Proposal Yiyi.svg? -- King of ♠ 19:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't consider that. That's probably true. Dcoetzee (talk) 01:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

What is "dangerous" is modifying the license on a file when you are not the copyright holder : I agree with the above statement and this is why I wonder why people or bots have taken the task of changing licenses after the m:Licensing update. A majority in a community is not the owner of each member's private property (by the same token that a majority in the US congress is not the owner of a given United States citizen's house). For that reason, the m:Licensing update vote has no power for changing licenses without the copyright owner's consent. Teofilo (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The licensing update was not changing licenses exactly -- it was updating them to show the now-current terms. Users licensed images under the GFDL, and the terms of the GFDL itself changed, thus the update. I have no issue of doing that by bot. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
@Teofilo: Contributors released their work under current GFDL version and any future GFDL version. This includes GFDL 1.3, which allowed to relicense contributions under CC-BY-SA 3.0. Then, contributors had implicitly given their consent in advance.--Pere prlpz (talk) 00:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the licensing update is special because the GFDL explicitly introduced new terms permitting it to happen. This was done pretty much entirely so Wikipedia could transition its textual contributions from GFDL to CC-BY-SA - otherwise that would have been impossible. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Timed Text video subtitles erratic

I decided to revisit the Timed Text facility on videos, but I'm finding some work, and some do not. I just completed the timecodes for File:ABC ATMs.ogv and the subtitles work on both Opera logged in and Firefox not logged in (I do this to avoid problems with my preferences and to check things work for anonymous users). However, the same for File:Mud and Sand-silent 0to508.ogv‎ (see TimedText:Mud and Sand-silent‎) does not work - no errors, just no subtitles. I'm also experiencing pauses, and random restarts when playing these vidoes, using either of the players available: HTML5 WebM or HTML5 Ogg. The "raw" ogg file plays ok natively in Firefox, apart from buffering delays. Seeking works in Firefox but is erratic via the embedded players. There are a few comments in the Talk archives but no follow-up. Are these problem temporary or does this otherwise nice facility need attention? -84user (talk) 16:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I can think of 2 reasons that TimedText:Mud and Sand-silent‎ may not be working. Firstly, captions 2 + 3 are displayed for 0 or negative amounts of time, so they won't appear. Also, the SubRip format specifies timecodes in the format hh:mm:ss,nnn. Your timecodes are missing the number of hours so may not be displayed by a player which is strict with how it interprets the format.
The large amount of buffering and stuttering you experience (on the ABC video at least) may be a consequence of the high bitrate of the video for its content. 1.17Mbps is at least 3x too much bandwidth in my opinion. I was meaning to re-encode the ones which are in use; they are the files as they directly came from ABC and are higher bitrate than the ones provided even on their own website --moogsi (blah) 01:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


Should commons no longer accept images that do not satisfy the Quality Image requirements ?

(Inserted note) I withdraw this proposal, it is quite clear from his most recent comment that Alvesgaspar was 'wasting our time' Penyulap 16:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that Alvesgaspar has a good idea to improve the quality of images on commons, his recent comment gives pause for thought:

Everybody is welcome here as long as the project's goals are given the necessary precedence over personal interest. That is not what happened with Dmitri. The low-resolution thirteen pictures that were uploaded by him will never satisfy the Quality Image requirements and can hardly be used in any serious printed work. The only possible use that I see is to illustrate Wikipedia articles, which is exactly what Dmitri tried to do, with the negative results we all know. If this user is really interested in contributinbg to the project he will come back with a different attitude and better images.


I think that the quality of images on commons could on average be lifted if we made it known that only Quality and featured pictures are welcome, and we make it clear to other contributors their efforts are unwelcome. That way, we'd just get the quality images. If we prevent editors uploading low quality images and using them in articles, would this benefit the project's quality ? Penyulap 11:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I know that it sounds wild and it's an utopia, I know that I'll probably catch lots of enemies with this point of view, but... indeed, I would strong support any proposal for a minimal quality threshold (like the current Image guidelines) for all images to be uploaded on Commons! --A.Savin 12:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Uhm... well, yes and no. First off, minimum resolution guidelines can't be implemented, for instance the Geograph project brings us thousands (millions?) of photos which are useful, but almost all at 640*480, well below the 2MP requirement. I could possibly support some quality control (eg well-lit, in focus), but certainly not to QI standard. I've contributed about 6k photos to Commons, but only about 800 are rated QI, and I doubt more than a third of them COULD be QI. But they're all potentially useful photos. Furthermore, we'd need to make sure we had some system to ensure we didn't delete things which were bad but usable quality of things we didn't have other photos of. And who is going to judge all this? QI has about 50 images nominated per day, of which a fair number don't get reviewed, and probably half are judged as failures. That all our photos would be beautiful is a nice idea but impossible. -mattbuck (Talk) 12:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Common sense would help far more than any guideline. LOTS of new uploads on Commons have a resolution of less than 1 MP, and lots of them have dubious copyright status. If we would delete such images quickly (just because the quality is far below every possible threshold we could establish) rather than bother with tagging, RfD etc., we probably had less chaos here, especially with the "uncategorized" categories... --A.Savin 12:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I think it's a great idea, forget the neigh-sayers. I'll need to put up deletion requests for the little arrows I did in the graphics lab though, because I can't think of how I can make them, like, featured images. I should give this a try though. I think I have the skills to produce a featured arrow image, never say never ! Penyulap 12:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

(Tries to keep a cool head to answer that)
Jsut to be sure: Is this a real proposal? I cannot determine if the proposing user is serious or highly ironic. If this is serious: I do not think this a good proposal at all, and can think of several reasons:

  1. As mattbuck points out, we do not have the workforce to implement that;
  2. Deeming all non-QI pics as worthless is an incredibly narrow point of view, even for QIC regulars − for example I know regulars at QIC/FPC who regularly have their sports photographs rejected because QI criteria do not forgive the conditions (bad interior lighting, fast movements and noise);
  3. I’d like to quote Rama, who said once that « Commons is a graphical school », illustrating his point with his first picture and his latest (at the time): Enforcing whatever quality is deemed minimal would for sure deter new users and deprive us of awesome contributors

Jean-Fred (talk) 13:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

  •   Comment -- Taking my words out of context and presenting them as a justification for this absurd proposal can hardly be accepted as a good faith initiative. Please, Penyulap, don't make us loose our precious time! -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 13:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • For someone like me who does the "categorizing" job it's not absurd; but nor is it a proposal. --A.Savin 13:13, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
National geographic welcomes this photographers work, but does Alvesgaspar ? Penyulap
  • clarification requested well to answer Jean-Frédéric, I guess we need to ask Alvesgaspar just what he means objecting to the proposal regarding Dimitri. For those who don't know, the proposal is a few sections above, and is about a photographer who donated some pictures, which I quite like, for example this one of a bride and some old ladies. When I have a look on the National Geographic website at and read the caption there, I think it's quite charming. The photographer was hounded off the project by a few people, jealousy has been mentioned, and I thought Alvesgaspar's comment and opposition to making Dimitri feel welcome was a serious comment. Perhaps I was wrong, but it does seem quite straightforward, and there is some support for the 'oppose' vote.
* Nomination rough draft of a new arrow --Penyulap 13:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC) * Decline Dark, bad crop lines, blurred background. --mattbuck 18:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
alternate image, improved lighting, sharper background, and <nudge> <nudge> <wink> <wink> say no more, huh ? --Penyulap
So I would like to know, is Alvesgaspar quite seriously wishing to make unwelcome photographers who National Geographic identify as the best of the best, if he is just trolling, I guess that would explain his comments quite well, but if not, I guess we'd better lift our game and the quality of the images we donate to the project. I for one don't want to take chances and have begun work re-drawing those arrows, I have got the basic form finished, but have to re-do the pedestal, add the angels swirling about and choose the choral music to go with it, so it has a similar feel to my Space station sketch and has a hope to reach the GA minimum so I don't get hounded off commons in a similar fashion to Dimitri. Penyulap 13:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  •   Comment -- The answer is yes. I’m not willing to welcome a professional photographer to Commons when his only obvious goal is self-promotion. That is apparent from his behavior in here as well as in the English Wikipedia (that is why WP is cited in this discussion!). This general principle of mine applies to Mr Dmitri as well as it would apply to Cartier-Bresson, if he were alive, or to any other sacred cow. Mr Dmitri didn’t donate Commons a sh*. What we got from him is thirteen thumbnails, similar to those shown by the hired photographers to the guests in a wedding: some of them looking good and other incredibly kitschy. As I said above, I will gladly change my opinion at the very moment Mr Dmitri comes back with a different attitude and really valuable images. And now, Penyulap, please stop insulting our intelligence and wasting our time with useless proposals and wild accusations. Alvesgaspar (talk) 15:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
    • And I would ask you Alvesgaspar to stop needlessly insulting and attacking other editors, and contributors. You have gone on the attack in relation to Dmitri1999 and frankly it is totally uncalled for and unwarranted. BTW, did you look at Category:Photographs by Dmitri Markine by any chance? They have clearly contributed more than you have said they have to this project. Chill the hell out, for crying out loud people. russavia (talk) 16:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
      • I will say no more though I never insulted anyone and was the one been mocked and provoked over and over again. Yes, I know those photos: all but 13 were not uploaded by Dmitri. Alvesgaspar (talk) 17:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC
        • Weren't the other photographs originally uploaded by Dmitri to the english language wikipedia -- then ported to the commons by other commons contributors who recognized their high quality, and that they would be excellent additions? Geo Swan (talk) 01:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Assuming User:Penyulap is serious -- which is not at all obvious -- I could not disagree more strenuously with this proposal. For example, if all we have on a poster for a 1916 theatrical performance is a low-res scan, that's the way it goes: we are certainly better off with it than without it. If an artist wants to make low-res versions of his/her work available freely without letting go of anything that would seriously impinge on the value of his/her work by making high-quality reproduction trivial, so be it. Etc. - Jmabel ! talk 16:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, it is actually Alvesgaspar's proposal, and it wasn't clear until his last comment where he spells out that he's been 'wasting our time'. This is unfortunate as we have lost a good contributor over all of this. Penyulap 16:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The proposal is obviously absurd. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Thumbnail of large image

I made a mozaic image of Daedongyeojido, an old map of Korea. It's size is 17,837 × 30,000 px(= 4.72 × 7.94 m). It's thumbnail image is not created due to some problem. But File:Bath from alexandra park.jpg's thumbnail is created clearly, although it's bigger than mine. What can I do for this situation? ØSalamander (Talk / Contributions) 14:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

First make a smaller image, say 500 wide, and then upload that. Then add that image to the description on commons, and it's solved here. In articles, use link= like this. [[File:Name of small image.png|thumb|This is the caption|link=File:name of large image.png]] or use the smaller one AS the image, and in the description let readers know there is a big image which will probably crash their browser, and give that link. Penyulap 14:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Isn't there any fundamental solution? ØSalamander (Talk / Contributions) 14:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I do not know, there are many problems with large files in my experience, many bugs and limitations of commons. Making a small version on your home computer may be the fastest way to fix the problem. The file would probably crash my computer so I won't try it myself. Penyulap 15:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It can be viewed in Toolserver, but can't be used in article. :'( sad. ØSalamander (Talk / Contributions) 15:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
suggested solutions
this is the small image I made, which works normally and goes to an explanation. Call it Mama bear
this is the thumb which goes immediately to the crash your browser size, call it pappa bear
this is the way to do it now I add a thumb to the description of the image, call it Baby bear and put it right into the article
Like this...[[File:Daedongyeojido-small.png|thumb|this is the way to do it now I add a thumb to the description of the image, call it Baby bear and put it right into the article|link=File:Daedongyeojido-full.jpg]] Penyulap 15:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
> jpeginfo -l -i -v Daedongyeojido-full.jpg
17837 x 30000 24bit JFIF  Progressive Huffman,95dpi 102319813 Daedongyeojido-full.jpg 

You saved the image as a progressive JPEG. Those need considerably more RAM to be thumbnailed, and always fail to thumbnail at large sizes. Reupload as baseline JPEG and it will thumbnail just fine. --Dschwen (talk) 16:42, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is the issue. I have uploaded many 30000 x 30000 JPEG images and they thumbnail just fine. Size is not a concern. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much! Problem solved. ØSalamander (Talk / Contributions) 01:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Transferring images from Bundesarchiv

  • can we at all transfer images from bundesarchiv? or do we have to search within the collection donated to commons?
  • (if allowed) how can i transfer these 2 images(1,2) from bundesarchiv to commons? is there bot for this?

-- Iñfẽstør  T• C• U 02:02, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

AFAIR only those images uploaded by their bot are available to us. --Denniss (talk) 05:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
do i use commons search function (as i use for any image) to search them? -- Iñfẽstør  T• C• U 09:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Also Category:Images from the German Federal Archive has a search box which uses standard search engine to search for only Bundesarchiv files meeting your criteria. As for transfer, you can upload any bundesarchiv file that is in Public domain, however only files uploaded as a part of the official batch upload can use their CC license. --Jarekt (talk) 13:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Obviously false source

File:Kitchener-Britons.jpg cannot possibly come from the source given; the source is a completely different variant. Adam Cuerden (talk) 11:29, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think sourcing the British Government is correct, but of course not a good online source, a book source might be "War posters: issued by belligerent and neutral nations, 1914-1918" but I cannot find an online preview of the book. Other useful links for your search might be this French site which gives good info, and this has some later interesting works derived from the image. Penyulap 13:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I removed source from File:Kitchener-Britons.jpg, since as you said it is a different poster. I also uploaded the graphics mentioned in that source. See Category:Alfred Leete. It would be good to find source for File:Kitchener-Britons.jpg, but many web versions of that file seem to have come from us, some even hot linking to our file. --Jarekt (talk) 13:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Mystery train

I found the following picture

. I have no real clue except the date in 1908. However there should not be that many railways electrified with third rail at that time. It looks suburban. It looks like french uniforms. I have a suspicion that it could the TGM in Tunis, but I have no evidence of this. Smiley.toerist (talk) 00:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

May I suggest posting your enquiry on some of the following noticeboards. Most projects have an 'embassy' to help with translation, however possibly google translate will help, or a picture of a questionmark next to your image, and the question in english (there are lots of multilingual editors).

cs:Wikipedie:WikiProjekt Železnice


en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains


fr:Projet:Chemin de fer

ko:위키백과:위키프로젝트 철도




ru:Википедия:Проект:Железнодорожный транспорт

fi:Wikipedia:Wikiprojekti Rautatieliikenne

sv:Wikipedia:Projekt järnvägar


Penyulap 10:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Solved: It is Tunis GTM. Was electrified in 1908. Probably an inaugural run.Smiley.toerist (talk) 13:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to apologise to Dmitri1999 and restore his list of awards.

Dmitri Markine is a Canadian photojournalist and a wedding photographer. In 2009 was named one of the Top 10 Wedding photographers in Canada. He has donated the following images to the project, and it is quite clear from these donations the calibre of this artist.

His userpage has been mishandled, details can be found here. I propose that the wikpedia commons community apologise to Mr Markine, restore the list of awards to his userpage, and make it known that he is welcome here, should he ever wish to persevere. Penyulap 14:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Naturally, I Support this proposal, this artist and his work is precisely what is needed here on commons. Penyulap 14:17, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - I am sorry that I didn't see this before. Sort of embarrassing really. mr.choppers (talk)-en- 15:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support for what it's worth. However, the actions of some very foolish individuals likely mean that it's far too late for this to actually do any good. May I suggest that these individuals be reprimanded on their talk pages as well, to try and prevent this happening again? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, and a good hard trout-slap to the individuals involved in this mess. cmadler (talk) 16:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The guilty ones deserve far more. It seems the the pettiness of en:wp is spreading far too much into commons. They should be hung, shot, and then drawn and quartered. Not sense slapping them with trout that have far better uses as good tasting food.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. Overzealous protection of who knows what. --Trycatch (talk) 00:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose -- Everybody is welcome here as long as the project's goals are given the necessary precedence over personal interest. That is not what happened with Dmitri. The low-resolution thirteen pictures that were uploaded by him will never satisfy the Quality Image requirements and can hardly be used in any serious printed work. The only possible use that I see is to illustrate Wikipedia articles, which is exactly what Dmitri tried to do, with the negative results we all know. If this user is really interested in contributinbg to the project he will come back with a different attitude and better images. A mistake was probably made when his userpage was erased but that was corrected. Any kind of self-humiliation from the Commons community will be an insult to the many users who contribute anonymously with their creations (some of them really valuable) and hard work. A look at this discussion may be instructive to some: [5] -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 10:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It appears from the discussion in the sections below that some of these suggestions are 'absurd' and 'time-wasting'. Penyulap 07:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Of course not Very much per Alvesgaspar.  B.p. 10:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Somebody asked a question about Dmitri1999's user page; people gave their opinions on it. Part of this user page was blanked by some user who thought it should be blanked; he later changed his mind and reverted himself. I see nothing in this to apologize for. When asked (below) what just what merited a group apology, the user who (above) first suggested the apology twice failed to explain. (The second refusal is rather witty, but a cop-out all the same.) There's reference above to embarrassment, extreme foolishness, the appropriateness of personal reprimands, trout-slapping, pettiness, hanging, shooting, drawing, quartering, cannibalism, and (rather a let-down after cannibalism) overzealousness, none of which is specified/explained. (If on the other hand you want to say "Dmitri1999 has posted some good photos and is now upset; I've expressed my regret over this matter and perhaps you'd like to do so as well", fine.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I would have no problem at all if the files were of higher resolution. As far as self-promoting on Commons goes, Dmitri1999's case seems to be rather tasteful in all the other aspects. --Pitke (talk) 11:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Photos - meh. Overly promotional: userpage - borderline, behaviour - yes. Nothing to apologise for here, and no great loss if he stays away. --Avenue (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per my comment on his talk page. Commons is not Wikipedia, and his user page here was perfectly acceptable. Except in a limited set of circumnstances (which this is most certainly not) we don't care why Dmitri1999 uploads images here, and we don't set some arbitrary quality threshold on his work before accepting it. His images are within scope and properly licensed, therefore, for any comments he has been subjected to here that suggested otherwise, he is owed an apology. Ultra7 (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  •   Support as per Penyulap. Hindustanilanguage (talk) 09:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC).
  • Offer compromise: let's give Dmitri1999 a chance to upload larger versions or larger new photos. If they agree with our sentiment that a bit of self-promotion can be allowed for those who have contributed truly useful and valuable media, they can have their award listings and whatnot back. In any case we should be ready to apologise that we have treated them like this while not having actual clear-cut policies for situations like these. --Pitke (talk) 14:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Apology -- I don't see any problem with the images Dmitri1999 took that were uploaded here, either in terms of their quality or whether they are in scope. As others have noted, this apology is probably too late to get him to reverse his resignation from the project, but it is nevertheless the right thing to do. FWIW, I see them as rather high quality images.

    Some people have argued that any unhappiness over the wikipedia should not affect how Dmitri1999 was treated here. I agree.

    Dmitri1999 has indicated he is going to request all images he took be deleted. We sometimes delete properly licensed images, as a courtesy. I don't think we should do so with the fine Dmitri1999 images.

    FWIW, I copied the 13 images Dmitri1999 himself directly uploaded to the commons to a non-WMF wiki. Geo Swan (talk) 09:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


  • Comment: we need a clearer userpage policy. Links to own webpage as professional photographer should be OK and other pages referencing own photographic curriculum should be OK. Some guidelines for sysops of both Commons and another project, acting on controversial issues in Commons related to issues in the other project, could be useful. Btw. some of original Dimitri1999 links don't work or point to commercial pages apparently not related with the claimed awards; I suppose they are just links to fix.--Pere prlpz (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  •   Comment I wish that common sense was enough. We have Commons:Scope#Aim_of_Wikimedia_Commons that says that
"The aim of Wikimedia Commons is to provide a media file repository:
  • that makes available public domain and freely-licensed educational media content to all, and
  • that acts as a common repository for the various projects of the Wikimedia Foundation."
If everyone had asked themself "Will the removal of content from a userpage help us reach this aim?" then I really hope that they would have come to the conclusion that it would not help at all. Commons is NOT Wikipedia so we should not copy everything from Wikipedia and we should not try to eliminate everything that could look a bit like a comercial. --MGA73 (talk) 15:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The function of a user's user page is, in no small part, to tell us about that user's interests and personality, for the purpose of community building. I completely support users voluntarily linking to businesses they work at or operate, regardless of whether they have any relationship whatsoever to Commons, as long as they are also Commons contributors with useful uploads. Dcoetzee (talk) 04:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's Wikimedia Commons. Questions. How was the user page "mishandled"? (As I see it, a question was raised, and people gave their opinions. Somebody deleted part of the user page, and then later reverted himself.) People should be "reprimanded" (Adam Cuerden) for what? They are "guilty" (Canoe1967) of what? -- Hoary (talk) 07:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Such questions might best answered on the administration noticeboard. We, as a community, simply wish to state clearly the purpose of this project, nothing else. Some people know what that is, some people don't seem to (even when MGA73 has kindly pointed it out). There are 5 sections of discussion to choose from here that may help answer those questions. Penyulap 08:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there are indeed a number of sections of discussion over there. Precisely which part within them you're referring to is not clear. You point me to some comment by MGA73. I'll take the one above. MGA says: we should not copy everything from Wikipedia and we should not try to eliminate everything that could look a bit like a comercial. Are you saying that (i) some users have copied everything from Wikipedia and have tried to eliminate everything that could look a bit like a commercial, and (ii) some sort of joint apology should be made for this? If not, what are you saying? And precisely what was the mishandling -- (a) that somebody removed part of a user page (and later put it back), (b) that somebody had the temerity to question this part of the user page, (c) that at least one person didn't defend this part of the user page, or some combination of these, or something else? -- Hoary (talk) 08:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
What I'm saying is there a common and overused tactic of 'hijacking' threads and then flying them out of the country to any of a dozen other destinations, different from where everyone on board was going. Have you ever happened to notice anyone doing that to a thread ?
I'll consider answering questions if some of the hostages are released first. Penyulap 10:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

In general, I'm starting to feel like we should make up a "how-to" for self-promotion on Commons. Allowing a bit of tasteful self-promotion and having some set guidelines on what is "tasteful" might be good in sense of getting quality content. Some suggestions:

  • No watermarks or signatures on photos.
  • Link to one personal website or entry at a collective website in the Author field is okay
  • Factual not-strictly-commercial info on personal userpage is allowed (ok: professional scope, awards, diplomas/schooling, further links to personal websites; not ok: price lists)
  • Allowed to have "Media by [Name]" hidden cats. We already have those.
  • Encouragement to upload higher resolution (QI can only be awarded to author-submitted files--annual awards also demand a high resolution)
  • Encouragement to upload valuable (in terms of VI) and/or unique content; the more interesting and "desirable" the image is to illustrate Wikipedia, the more it will be used, i.e. more visibility to the author
  • Link to a comprehensive "Categorising 101"... which I feel should be made in any case.

-- Pitke (talk) 11:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It's a good idea to make it an official proposal, rather than having random editors attacking and driving away contributors for their own undefined random reasons. Penyulap 11:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Agree with Pitke's how-to suggestions. Seem quite useful. mr.choppers (talk)-en- 18:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Please discuss this guideline at Commons:Village_pump#Proposed_guideline_for_self-promotion_on_commons below. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  •   Comment -- I'm striking my oppose vote above because this proposal makes little sense and seems to go nowhere. Even assuming that the outcome will be positive and clear, what will be the next action: to apologize Dmitri in the name of the community? Well, such action could make sense if the support to the present proposal were overwhelming, which is obviously not the case. And I very much doubt that the "Commons' community" will accept being represented by the few users who embraced this initiative (I do not, for sure). To ask the Wikimedia Foundation to present those apologies? Even worse! Please consider the possibility of withdrawing this proposal and close the thread. Alvesgaspar (talk) 12:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I have been thinking for AGES to make yet another parody of Jimbo Wales (a public figure) this time as a ventriloquist's dummy head, with those lines going down from the edges of his mouth, and animate it so it looks like he's talking (dummy style) with subtitles saying "I support this candidate, proposal or product". I think it'd be hilarious, people could use it everywhere for everything, of course it would be so obviously fake that no reasonable person would see it as him actually endorsing anything, but you know. OH S** sorry, I'm yabbering again aren't I ?
Nobody should do anything that they feel uncomfortable doing, and I don't think that is the idea here at all. The consensus here IS the apology if people like to go no further. People have said they support the idea. Then again, we can, rather, I can, put something on his page if you want, I'm good at apologies and have made several good ones on wiki already. Comes with the territory of being an idiot I guess, I've lots of experience saying sorry. Doesn't always work I regret to say, but I keep improving at it I hope, and fingers crossed it may work who knows.
I was thinking also, that I love that image of the old ladies so much that I'd put it in an award for Dimitri, it is that good. I also linked to the actual website so people can read more about it, like the caption. I can't imagine anyone will get very upset if I place it on his userpage (if he doesn't return) and I can't see any real reason why the link and picture inside the award would cause trouble. Still, it's only one image and one link, and it's not as if all 13 or whatever images would all get awards from different editors here. I'm not sure if people like a particular image as much as I like that particular image. Still, you never know, there might be two or three. Penyulap 15:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

After Rotation picture no more in uploads

Hallo, when requesting rotation of newly uploaded files, the files are obviously proceeded, but after that they do not return to the listed uploads. When using the galery-tool to see the files, the rotated files are still in wrong position, but when I click to see full size, they are correct. In linked pages they are also shown as should be. The file should be shown here: [[6]] --ArishG (talk) 18:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

yes, this a known bug (bugzilla:30607), and the solution is not for tomorrow. ListFiles only lists the most recent version.
Commons:MyGallery is smarter − allows filtering created, overwrote and revoked files
Jean-Fred (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Commons:MyGallery shows exactly the version of the file that was uploaded. If it was uploaded upside down, it would show it this way, even if a new version would have been uploaded with the error corrected. -- Rillke(q?) 18:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
As it says right at the top of Special:ListFiles/ArishG: "This special page shows all uploaded files. When filtered by user, only files where that user uploaded the most recent version of the file are shown." To correct the rotation, Rotatebot had to upload a new version of the file. That means you did not upload the most recent version of the file, so it isn't shown in Special:ListFiles/ArishG. LX (talk, contribs) 20:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Image Upload For Discussion

Is it possible to upload an image to a user talk page for discussion purposes without uploading it as a new image on Commons?--Glasshouse (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

No, but you can provide a link to a website that hosts it. There are many out there.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

February 6

Source of this NASA image?

Hey. Can anyone help me with this image? This is definitely an image from a past NASA space shuttle mission (notice the space shuttle cargo bay area and CanadArm above)... But I just can't find this image in any trusted site, let alone finding the official NASA ID... The flickr source mentioned is from; the file is moved here. Thanks. Rehman 05:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I've looked through, I've done all kinds of google image searches with various keywords... nothing. I wonder if it isn't perhaps some kind of screen shot from a video, maybe an IMAX movie or some documentary. Huntster (t @ c) 07:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
May be a capture from NASA's TV channel. Carl Lindberg (talk) 07:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I copied the original information template from the upload to the image page. Note that it is a derivative image by User:Keyan20, not sure that helps the present discussion but the information should not be lost. Dankarl (talk) 20:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That's normally a good idea, but not in this case. Both, the template currently at Commons, and the template formerly at, had essentially the exact same stuff. Except for the "Derivative work: Keyan20" part, which I intentionally did not include because this file was directly fetched from that flickr source using UploadWizard, and is not an copy, even though it was the exact same copy there. I don't see what's the derivative work, unless I'm missing something here. For now, I have removed the duplicate box (it's always in history), right now it just makes things look odd. Rehman 01:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess my thinking was that both the Flickr image and the WP version might be derivatives of something else, either a screen grab as the earlier replies suggested, or something more, maybe heavily modified from a NASA original. Does the horizon line look right to you? Dankarl (talk) 05:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It's a fisheye lens on the camera; I highly doubt there is any derivative work anywhere. Just a copy. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It's definitely from a video clip; here is a video which includes the image. That is not the direct source, as the Flickr image was uploaded in Feb 2011, and that clip was uploaded in May 2012, but that clips says that all footage comes from NASA, so there is a source somewhere. It's a straight grab of a video frame. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
You could contact the editor of the clip, Reyhan Inggit Herdyar, on, youtube or twitter. The picture looks to me like last century. The SRMS robotic arm in the picture is also called canadarm. but not canadarm2. The picture is taken from the rear of the bay I think, so you could rule out missions where they had some little pressurised lab thingy at the front of the shuttle. I'm no expert on the shuttle though. Lee Brandon-Cremer has a site on facebook and twitter, you could ask him, he may know. He has donated a great deal of work in the past. The image is free for sure. It would need to have some fancy processing to change that, and it doesn't look that way. As a rule of thumb, all shuttle pictures are free and all chinese space pictures are copyright. Modern Russian pictures are mixed, old soviet are copyright. International Space Station pictures are mixed, Japanese, European, Russian ones are copyright, US ones are free. Private vessels like Dragon-X are copyright. Fisheye lenses are used by NASA, I had made a collection of fisheye images for my Bot User:PALZ9000, but I never uploaded them. Penyulap 09:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Great catch, Carl! Thanks! Now just need to trace back to the original video... Rehman 14:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

February 3

Is there a specific category for files like 55 Baker Street exterior II.jpg? It is obvious this is not a "real" image. I asked that question to Foroa who suggested the village pump. Hence my question over here. :-) Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The bigger question is, where is the evidence that the company in question has released the image into public domain? As for the category you are looking for, I would suggest Category:Architectural visualisation drawings. Huntster (t @ c) 07:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Thnx, should I add the Category and meanwhile try to find out if the company released the image into public domain? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Sure, adding the category isn't an issue; if you can't show that the image was released, be sure to nominate it for deletion. Huntster (t @ c) 10:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that a question to be asked is if there is a need for a warning when an image is not an original photograph but mainly a photoshop job, which is not immediatly clear without close scrutinity. --Foroa (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Statue of Lenin, Seattle copyright

Can anyone verify whether that the images at Category:Statue of Lenin, Seattle are copyright violations? It looks like the copyrights still belong to Emil Venkov ( --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Template:FoP-Czech Republic says that FOP is allowed. Being the source country does that apply here?--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Most FOP pics are works that are both first published in and located in the FOP nation at the time of photography. In light of the uncertainty surrounding whether a US court would protect images of copyrighted sculptures taken abroad, I would be very reluctant to extend FOP to photos of sculptures taken inside the USA, even if the original works were first published elsewhere. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
This has been discussed before, and the decision at that time was to delete all such photos. - Jmabel ! talk 00:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Discussion was Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Statue of Lenin (Fremont, Seattle, Washington). - Jmabel ! talk 00:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll clean the cat and put a notice on it. Dcoetzee (talk) 07:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  Done. Dcoetzee (talk) 07:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of that. I just uploaded an image under fair use for w:Statue of Lenin, Seattle. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem, let me know if you want to retrieve one of the others for fair use. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

February 5

Media needing categories

A few weeks ago, I checked Category:All media needing categories as of 2013 and there were less than 10 000 images. After that, their number has increased with hundreds or thousands daily. Right now they are more than 46 000. How is it that they have more than tripled in a short time? And what can we do about it? It's difficult to manage such an exploding amount. --Jonund (talk) 17:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thousands of new files are uploaded every day, and a very large part of them are uncategorised. There are over 3,000 files in Category:Media needing categories as of 26 January 2013 alone. In general, this is largely because categorisation is not emphasised during the upload process, but during the last month, it looks like a very large proportion of the uncategorised files were bot uploads requested by User:Russavia. LX (talk, contribs) 20:24, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Then we have better be more express in stating the need for adding categories. But how can we recruit more categorizers? Maybe a suggestion at the WP Village pump to join us would be worthwhile? --Jonund (talk) 18:31, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that an exploding amount of uncategorized media is a problem, as grabbing hold of stuff while it's available is more important than filing it all. Emphasizing categorization on upload might be better, though. Currently a user uploads something and some time later (hours? days?) a bot tags it as uncategorized and leaves a message on their talk page. For some users this is too far after the fact. I get the feeling that many people have given up on the current system as a bad job, in favour of some future intersection-based system which is actually fit for purpose --moogsi (blah) 00:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that it might be a good idea to start a promotion campaign on the wikipedias (sitenotice) that states : "Have you noticed the new images on Commons concerning <pagename>" and a link field that performs a search on Commons. --Foroa (talk) 08:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

COM:FOP#Slovenia review needed

Can some of the admins go through all the already closed deletion requests in Category:Slovenian FOP cases/deleted in the light of recent changes I made to the interperatation of Slovene copyright law provided by a prominent lawyer mag. Setinc. I unfortunately don't have the time to go through requests, neither did I have sufficient amount of time to patrol them in the past - even though I have also been constantly reminding users who have been opening even more ambigous DRs that their interpretation is on loose grounds. Best regards, --Miha (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. When I see FOP nominations come through DR, it sometimes seems the 'precautionary principle' is being applied based on legislation that is not well understood. I took the liberty of fixing typos, but I couldn't work out what this sentence means:
"However, according to the Slovene Office for Intellectual Property are in ambigous cases (where no case law exists) the only and the absolute authority the courts."
is it something like:
"However, according to the Slovene Office for Intellectual Property, in ambigous cases (where no case law exists) the only and absolute authority lies with the courts."
Cheers, moogsi (blah) 22:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

February 7

Checking subtitles and transcripts of an audio file

Where do I go to have a third party check the accuracy of subtitles and transcripts of an audio file? I typed a transcript and subtitles of an FBI speech on en:sextortion and I hope to find a user who is willing to make a Spanish subtitle file (or if need be, different subtitle files for different dialects of Spanish): File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg WhisperToMe (talk) 00:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Messed up file history

At File:Engines.jpeg#File history you can see that something go went wrong with the Flickr upload and a second unrelated image got saved with the same name. The current image shows portuguese railway wagons for granulate material — these are unpowered rolling stock units, not locomotives (engines), and they are not particulaely old nor seem to be abandoned. The geolocation doesnt seem to match this image, as at that location there are no rail tracks (hm, there are actually, but deep undergrown and where no cargo trains ever go). The older pic, to which pertains the keyword "115" (the only category that makes sense for any of these tho photos, by the way, the rest are the redundant/misleading/unspecific category garbage tm accustomed us to), shows something that I cannot clearly identify — a detail of a motorbike, maybe? We need to have these tho photos in separate files, properly sourced and categorized. -- Tuválkin 02:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Second image deleted as no one knows for sure were it originated from. Either Bot upload error or wrong instructions by the user initiating the upload. Problem is not uncommon, I have seen messed-up pages with ~10 different images. --Denniss (talk) 03:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Permission related to out of scope deletion

I'm looking at a permission statement for an image which was deleted, not due to lack of permission, but because it was deemed out of scope.


I can share this information with the copyright holder, but I'd like to anticipate the likely follow-up what next?

Should I direct the person to deletion review, or something else?--Sphilbrick (talk) 12:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

If the image is undeleted after OTRS permission is done, the description-field should be filled, so it's clear that the image is in scope. If it can be used in another wikimedia project, even better. A notice on the files talkpage should do no harm. --Funfood 13:41, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I can't do the OTRS permission without requesting undeletion, and I don't think it makes sense for me to request undeletion for an out of scope image. I can't see it, so I don't know if it possibly could be in scope. --Sphilbrick (talk) 13:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess it was deleted because, we could not figure out what would be the use of this image. It was a 114x170 thumbnail of a photograph of unknown individual, possibly called "Cortland" judging by the filename. I do not think we need OTRS since the image claimed to be done by Lowerison isabelle, if that is correct than that is good enough for us. But it would be preferable for Isabelle to provide full resolution version of the image so it does not look like it was copied from the internet somewhere, and thumbnails are much less useful than full size images. So the main question to Isabelle would be who is the subject of her photo, so so we can evaluate if it is in scope or not. By the way, the OTRS ticket is ticket:2013020710005105. --Jarekt (talk) 14:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I will direct her to this discussion.--Sphilbrick (talk) 15:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
By the way, Isabelle seems to be uploading multiple images related to "Cortland" who seems to be an artist. See w:fr:Discussion:Cortland (Artiste peintre)/Suppression Some of the images still on Commons:

All images are unused and uncategorized. Many others were already deleted due to copyright violations where Isabelle claimed authorship of newspaper pages, see Special:DeletedContributions/Lowerison_isabelle. I think at least File:Cortland 2012.JPG meets our com:scope criteria, so I created Category:Cortland (artist) for it. I am not sure about the rest of the files. I also do not think we need Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Cortland_Portrait_2012.JPG since it is a thumbnail of a file similar to File:Cortland 2012.JPG. --Jarekt (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletes of old maps

File:Michelin nr 66, 1940 Belfort.jpg is deleted without discussion and before I was notified. It should never have been fast deleted:

Note to deleter:

I am sorry, but this is a map more than 70 years old. These maps are company work and become PD 70 years after publication. That michelin stil exitst is irrelevant. It is not a natural person (author) where you have to wait 70 years after the author dies. On this reasoning you would have to protect works more than 200 years old if the original compagny or organisation stil exist. When an organisation abolished the successors take over the copyrigths, but this is limited to 70 years after publication. Anyway this should never have been a speedy delete whereby I was notified after the delete. Smiley.toerist (Overleg) 20:21, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

In the U.S., it is 95 years from publication, not 70. I agree that the deletion reason looks to be quite misinformed about copyright law, but if this is a U.S. map, it may still be under copyright. Carl Lindberg (talk) 20:42, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It is Michelin map (French compagny) about a part of France. (French copyrigth law) It has nothing to do with US copyrigth. By the way: the US army massively copied the Michelin maps, with secret Michelin direction permission, for the invasion of France.Smiley.toerist (talk) 20:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The file has been restored so that a proper delete discussion can take place. I have moved my comments to the delete discussion page. The conclusion should be reported back to the village pump, as the copyrigth application to collective work (by an organisation) is unclear for many persons and different to "natural persons".Smiley.toerist (talk) 21:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Conclusions: At the URAA cut-off date (1 jan 1996), the French time limit after death was 58 years + 120 days (50 years + war extention). All French PD works from before 1938 are therefore save from the URAA restoration. The map itself is from 1940 however.Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it "from before 1937"? -- Asclepias (talk) 15:59, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, more preciese: before august 1937. But then isnt it rounded off to a whole year? Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
The countdown generally starts from the beginning of the year after the year the author died. So if an author died any time in 1937, their work would enter the public domain 58 years + 120 days after Jan 1, 1938, or April 30, 1996, which is after the URAA date of January 1, 1996 ({{France wartime extensions URAA}} summarizes this). Dcoetzee (talk) 01:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Hm, that's not quite the way I'd always taken it. There would be no reason to mention the number of days in the extension if it was always counted from Jan 1. I always figured you took the author's death date, added 8 years and 120 days, then go to the end of the year that day falls on. So... yes, I thought it was generally August 1937. There is some question though about works which expired on Jan 1, 1996 itself, as by that time people knew the EU extensions were going to apply and restore copyright. The French law made clear that there could be no penalty for using works which became PD in 1995 or earlier before they were officially restored in 1997, but is a bit ambiguous about the ones which technically expired on Jan 1, 1996 itself. So perhaps August 1936, to be free of doubt. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay, maybe I misinterpreted in what order things are computed. I'm fine with August 1937 as the line, since that's what we've been using - I don't think we need to be super careful about works that expired on Jan 1, 1996. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I thought that the idea was that it was impossible to use your copyrighted works during the war and that the copyright was extended by the corresponding number of days in order to compensate for that, always giving copyright expiration in spring. That's how it seems to work with the Japanese war extensions, at least. Example: Take a British pre-war work by someone who died in 1955. The copyright term in Japan is then end of year+standard copyright term (50 years)+war extension (3794 days), giving expiration in spring 2016. --Stefan4 (talk) 11:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Removing file

Please remove File:Revue Esperanto 1905-2.jpg because it is no longer of use (the content was merged into File:Revue Esperanto 1905-1.jpg. Thank you. --Forstbirdo (talk) 16:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

  Done --Jarekt (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

February 8

Petition White House to upload their historical photo archive to Commons

I think we can make a petition on this site to advise White House upload their historical photo archive (in public domain) to Commons for educational purposes. If it gets at least 100,000 signatures within 30 days, they will issue a public response. I wonder if it works.--維基小霸王 (talk) 08:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Silly me. There's already been.--維基小霸王 (talk) 08:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Two images in one: Staffordshire Police Memorial

Te earlier version of File:The National Memorial Arboretum - Staffordshire Police Memorial.JPG is actually a different image. Can somone (does it need an admin?) fork them, please? Andy Mabbett (talk) 15:00, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you can just upload one under a different file name. Admin shouldn't be needed unless you want one version deleted from the history.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:13, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
  Done One of the files is now at File:The National Memorial Arboretum - Staffordshire Police Memorial (1).jpg. January (talk) 11:07, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, but both of those files are the same; and the earlier upload is still only showing in the history of the former. Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that's a cache problem, I had that at first but when I purged the cache they showed up as different images. January (talk) 05:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

February 10

URAA statement

Hi, guys. :) The WMF has received several questions lately from Commons users and others about the URAA. The legal and community advocacy department has issued a statement in response to these: m:Legal and Community Advocacy/URAA Statement. Thanks! --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 14:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

My interpretation of the statement is that:
  1. Commons Abroad is untenable (see Commons:Requests for comment/Commons Abroad and related ideas);
  2. Clear copyright violations deleted from Commons under the URAA cannot be re-uploaded to local projects except under an EDP compliant with US fair use law;
  3. The Foundation wants us to review individual files and remove clear copyright violations, but does not mandate the removal of files with unclear copyright status from all projects (e.g. borderline cases). That's a decision left up to individual project policy and consensus discussion.
I believe this is consistent with our practice and interpretation of the issues thus far. They don't mention third party sites like Wikilivres Canada, but I reasonably assume we can continue to move media to foreign sites unaffiliated with the Wikimedia Foundation. Dcoetzee (talk) 14:30, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Copying data to Wikilivers is an individual action, so I don't see how the WMF could be concerned with it except, perhaps, where admin tools are used to access already-deleted material. I suspect that they are referring to Wikilivres when they mention "infringing content [that] is linked to or embedded in Wikimedia projects". – Philosopher Let us reason together. 05:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Strike that. I'm now wondering about this as well, given the existence of Category:Deleted files transferred to Wikilivres and similar pages. Would these be potentially problematic for the WMF? – Philosopher Let us reason together. 05:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering too, but Maggie quite clarified they were referring to the Commons Abroad idea. There are no plans to embed files from WikiLivres ; and as far as I can see, we do not link to problematic material hosted on Wikilivres, hardly to WikiLivres at all − cf. LinkSearch. Jean-Fred (talk) 10:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I deliberately avoid linking to individual works on Wikilivres for this very reason. Dcoetzee (talk) 11:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
There is w:WP:LINKVIO and similar policies on other projects which tell that you shouldn't link to copyright violations. {{Transferred to Wikilivres}} indirectly links to Wikilivres, so I'm wondering if that might be an issue. In the worst case, the categories could be turned into lists hosted on Wikilivres. How should we interpret the part on unclear copyright status? In the recent painting deletion requests, there have been several paintings made "circa 1922" or at an unknown date (which could be post-1922). Should these be kept per the foundation statement, or does the foundation statement only refer to the problem that it is usually impossible to tell whether a painting was published? --Stefan4 (talk) 11:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
My interpretation of that statement was simply that the Foundation doesn't want to mandate deletion of borderline images of unknown copyright status, rather leaving that to project communities. We have a certain customary threshold for what we consider to be sufficient evidence that a work is in the public domain, and other projects might have somewhat different thresholds. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:53, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

What is a "clear copyright violation"? Speaking "on behalf" of the Spanish users (according to the Spanish Intellectual Property Act, a 80 year pma period is stated for a work to enter into the public domain, so that, all the works by authors dead before 6 February 1933 are in the public domain) it seems that only the works of authors dead before 1916 are in the public domain. Are the works of authors dead between 1916 and 1933 a "clear copyright violation"? The same applies to works of unknown author (instead of death of author date, it's publication date what is used). What does the WMF statement requests from us. I don't see much clarity on the WMF statements and I'd like to have it clarified. --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 15:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC) PD: if we go to other jurisdictions, such Argentina, where a 25 year period from publication date applies to photographs, all the pictures published in Argentina between 1961 and 1998 are a "clear copyright violation", aren't they?

They're not very clear about what they mean by "clearly infringing," but any work which was known to be published 1923 or later and in copyright in its source country on its URAA date is very likely to be copyrighted in the US (subject to a few rare exceptions like concurrent publication). It's somewhat immaterial for Commons' purposes since we apply PRP to works with unclear status (we have our own line in the sand that appears to be somewhat more conservative than the one suggested by the Foundation's "clearly"). Dcoetzee (talk) 19:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

That's not much helpful, I'm afraid. I'm an administrator and everyday I face a situation where a Spanish user uploads images that were created just before 1933 (just because of the 80 pma rule). It's even worse as the Spanish Second Republic was a key period in the Spanish history and as it started in 1931, public domain images are begining to be available. Now, the WMF issues a statement that says... almost nothing, but anyway, applying the URAA regulations, all the public domain images that were published (without known author) between 1916 and 1933 or were the work of authors died between 1916 and 1933 seem to have had its copyright restored in the US. So, my straightforward conclusion is that they should be deleted (maybe there's a room for works from the period bewteen 1916 and 1923, but the issue remains). How should I manage this issue? Should it be deal with in a case by case fashion? In the copyright village pump? I don't really know. Who can provide any guidance? --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 11:48, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

For generic information and FAQ on the URAA, see COM:URAA. For particular cases, see Category:URAA-related deletion requests. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 11:21, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Everything published before 1923 is in the public domain in the United States, regardless of whether it is still protected by copyright in Spain or not, so material published between 1916 and 1922 is fine if it is also in the public domain in Spain. Material first published between 1923 and 1977 is unfortunately protected by copyright in Spain the United States for 95 years since publication unless it was a posthumous work by an author who died before 1916. --Stefan4 (talk) 11:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
In your last sentence you mean "protected by copyright in United States" instead of "protected by copyright in Spain", don't you? --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 15:41, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, yes. --Stefan4 (talk) 14:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In plain words, any work published in Spain after 1923 has its copyright restored and cannot be hosted in Commons. Is that right? --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 22:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Any work published 1923 or later, yes, with some occasional exceptions (some works like murals may fall under Spanish freedom of panorama; some works were published concurrently within 30 days in the US and those will be in the public domain if not renewed, but evidence is needed to demonstrate this). Any works by authors who died more than 50 years ago can be reuploaded to Wikilivres, including some not yet free in Spain - ask me if you need help with that. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Mass uploads from Flickr or other sources

How useful is mass uploading of images from Flickr? I upload photos from Flickr myself - probably the majority of photos I have contributed to Wikimedia Commons is from there. But I see streams of photos from there, often similar to each other, often lacking categories or description, or with useless categories originating from the tags on Flickr. Two pretty good examples are here or here. Here is, among other images, a collection of 161 similar photos of the dawn or sunset in Taormina in Italy, all of them collected from Flickr in one mass upload.

It is obvious that not every image that gets uploaded to Wikimedia Commons has great value for use in articles on Wikipedia or other wiki projects, and I don't think we should demand that they do. But it just seems a little overblown to me to upload masses of photos when there is apparently little thought of how useful they can be. I think it would be wiser to consider it before we upload images from other sources, instead of leaving it to others to clean and tidy up after such mass uploads. I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I do get the feeling that we are sometimes uploading images just because we can, and not because the images contribute any particular value to the project. Blue Elf (talk) 20:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC) Adding another example of useless images that get mass uploaded from Flickr to Wikimedia Commons. I think some people have misunderstood the purpose of Wikimedia Commons. Blue Elf (talk) 15:16, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking we can always find another award winning artist and delete him and his images to make more space. (sorry, had to say it, hard time getting over it)
The images are pretty much headed for oblivion if they don't have something that a robotic search can attach itself to. If they can't be searched, not so much by category but by outside search engines, then they're as good as simple filler. The upload wizard would be a lot more effective if it had a box to enter a URL with the simple question 'where did you get this image from' and a few boxes for some word association.
commons is minuscule by comparison to other sites, Internet archive takes a dump on commons for size. Penyulap 22:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Taking up space is not a factor. Free licensed images should be uploaded to Commons IF they are within Commons:Project scope. If not, it doesn't belong. I'd say an image uploaded here should have some possible illustrative value for some in scope subject, and have adequate description &/or categories so that the subject is clearly identified and anyone interested in the subject can find the image. -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:25, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


Please, somebody rename this file into "File:Bacchante or Euryalus - British Cruiser.jpg" Thanks to the discussion on Russian board, it's not a Russian Cruiser afetr all, but British Cruiser Bacchante or Euryalus. Thank you in advance! --KIX4U (talk) 01:23, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I put a rename tag on it. You can correct it if you find out which ship it is.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:25, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Rename done, but the categories may need fixing.--Canoe1967 (talk) 05:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! And where's the rename tag? KIX4U (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

How to replace existing file using its name...

I have a question. There is an image Pilica COA.svg with a wrong 8-point star. I did in Inkscape a new correct COA with 6-point star based on commune (gmina) website. The existing image is not my file and it's not only about the star, but the other symbol (W) and geometry has changed as well. So it would be good to keep the current file, but under different name. Because the image is used in a few projects I would like to take the name over, which is the correct name, not misleading one for the new image (and wrong for the existing one). The existing file could have a suffix of "_alt". How to do it the best way... something like that:

  1. Request for renaming of the existing image to "POL Pilica COA_alt.svg"
  2. Request for deletion of automatically created redirect
  3. Upload new image with old (but deleted) name "POL Pilica COA.svg"

Or maybe there is a simple way. TIA, Blackfish (talk) 13:31, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The most basic way (certainly the one that requires the least filemover/admin intervention) is to overwrite the incorrect image with the correct image, and then re-upload the incorrect/alternate image as a separate file under a different name... AnonMoos (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
But the existing (wrong) image isn't my file and I don't think I should upload it. Blackfish (talk) 16:25, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Commander Hadfield

Commander Chris Hadfield (@Cmdr_Hadfield) is tweeting some fantastic shots of Earth, from the ISS. As he's a Canadian astronaut, are such pictures NASA's and so under a PD licence? Or his/Canada's, and if so, under what licence? I have asked him on Twitter, but he gets a lot of messages... Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

He works for You could try emailing them or searching the site for a licence. sites are really good at email response, 2-5 days usually.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Crown Copyright applies. Only hope you have is for someone to email the Canadian Space Agency to see if they will release them under a free CC-BY or CC-BY-SA license. Bidgee (talk) 06:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
They may well be his own, if these tweets are not something which is part of his official duties but rather something he does in spare time... Carl Lindberg (talk) 06:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Could be, maybe, possibly are the key words. Best to assume copyright is held by the Canadian Government. Bidgee (talk) 06:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • is the email for the CSA, or phone them at 450-926-4351.--Canoe1967 (talk) 06:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • contact page for the industry minister in charge of the space agency. He could release all images with a CC-by licence if you ask nicely. He is French, but should know English as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 07:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks; all. I'll send some emails. Andy Mabbett (talk) 23:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

February 11

Nice Bird

Yes there is, it's really really simple, just look through them one by one. Oh wait, you probably mean an easy way. ... hmm, Yes, I think we're screwed. About time there was some word association fields on the file upload tools. Only methods for that are not well advertised. Penyulap 07:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
You upload it then, kidding. If each has a flickr code number a bot should be able to search them?--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I think occasionally commons looks for duplicates. But it may ONLY work when it's an abnormally large complex animation of mine that couldn't possibly have any duplicate, but commons literally wastes hours per image looking anyhow. I think 'ignore warnings' helps, but reversing it might find dups until someone tells you how. If it is here it will say, and I quote, "There is another file already on the site with the same content." Penyulap 09:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
It is not very helpful to upload unidentified organisms. Better to check before submission.  B.p. 10:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Like File:Something in latin sitting on a stump over water.jpg and File:Unknown hairy creature on stump.jpg that I uploaded? Great work on the bird btw. Should we enter it for FI, QI, and maybe VI?--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Apparently this is "Miss Polly wannacracker" (I asked her her name), maybe Category:EnoughPixelsToBeFIporn if there were any experts we hadn't p-d off into leaving, so now we'll never know. For now put it in Category:ThingsThatMakeUsScratchOurselvesWhileWondering. Penyulap 11:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Sarcasm aside, and for the benefit of those who have not worked through this yet, generally you can search the Flickr URL or just the image number from within the URL. This does not work yet for the parrot, presumably because it is a new upload, but works for other Soggydan images, and i have used it previously in other contexts. (Of course it requires proper attribution, but the bots seem to copy the urls ok.) This is one more reason why it is ridiculous we have so many duplicates. Dankarl (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
You could search under category:Psittacus erithacus - PS see that it has been located. Google search by image (click on the camera icon on the search bar to upload the search image) might work. Shyamal (talk) 15:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Wah ! experts aplenty !! amazing, commons is quite different to Learn something new and incredibly useful everyday. Dankarl, I didn't aim for sarcasm, I was aiming for humour, they say practice makes perfect, and one day I'll hit the target.... I hope!
Thank you Shyama for the golden info ! and Dankarl too. Penyulap 15:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Penyulap -- The Wikimedia software almost certainly detects whether a file has been already uploaded by hashing techniques, so if it takes "hours", then something is very very broken... AnonMoos (talk) 04:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
If the image has already been uploaded and you try to upload the same image you'll get an error message during upload (AFAIR after the images has been uploaded but the hash check prevents it from being stored). Image has to be 100% identical or this check doesn't work. --Denniss (talk) 07:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
It's correct, if I leave ignore all warnings unchecked on a large anim, it takes over an hour doing 'something' after the transfer, before continuing. Penyulap 10:01, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Another way is to just use TinEye (accepts web pages, direct image URLs, or uploads) or Google Images (click on the camera icon; accepts only direct image URLs or uploads/drag-and-drop). TinEye often knows about Wikipedia and Commons images; its special ability is that it also will find other images that contain the image you're looking for, and sometimes other images which form part of the image you're looking for, including some that are "similar" enough that they seem to contain the image. Google Images finds even more things from Wikipedia and Commons; its special ability is that it will find a wide variety of images that look "similar" also, but not restricted to appearing to contain the target image. --Closeapple (talk) 18:03, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
That one seems to work even better than the google one. Brilliant !
It links the NASA image from the section several sections above this to a UFO video on an indian site. Though, that video is quite new (and seem to contain a suspiciously similar arrow to my own, hmmm). Penyulap 20:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Did you try searching Commons for all or any of:

  • soggydan
  • 4723089439

? Andy Mabbett (talk) 23:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Unstable template code

Lately I run into a strange issue: where same wiki code gives different results on different pages. For example when I look at Creator:Auguste Angellier I do not see the name of the artist and the template is in Category:LangSwitch template without English version however I cut and pasted the whole code of that template to Creator:Just a test and the template seems fine. Creator:Auguste Angellier can be easily fixed by rearranging order of lines within {{LangSwitch}} (please do not fix it for time being). The Highest expansion depth on that page is 22/40, so that is not the issue. Any other ideas? I have seen several pages like that lately. --Jarekt (talk) 19:19, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Creator:Derick Baegert has the same issue. --Jarekt (talk) 19:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
It is currently in the correct category. Ruslik (talk) 07:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I posted a question about this issue on wikitech mail list and it was discovered that the issue was due to some non-printable characters in the wikicode. All fixed now. --Jarekt (talk) 15:17, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

February 12

Template:Potd/2013-02-20 needs to have a new photo, but clueless about what to select. I was asked to remove the photo there by Italian users, saying that the photo depicted is of a major Italian politician. It is election season in Italy, so it would have been unfair to display the photo as a POTD during this campaign season. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 00:06, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I switched this picture with one that was scheduled for March 14, replacing the appropriate translations, so that we avoid needless accusations of political POV. odder (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. odder (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Good luck to the grasshopper. -- Asclepias (talk) 01:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

2012 POTY finals

I have started a discussion about the integrity of our 2012 POTY finals. Feedback is both welcomed and appreciated.   — C M B J   04:24, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Problems with de interwikis

At Category:Münsterland (ship, 1986), the bot removed the interwiki to the German Wikipedia. This seems to come from the fact that the article there was moved and the redirect deleted, but interwikis here weren't updated. Is there something that can be done about it? In general, AFAIK, redirects are kept when articles are moved. Well, maybe not in German Wikipedia. --  Docu  at 06:48, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I think this is correct bot behavior. If the page is deleted then the interwiki to it should be removed. After that a correct interwiki should be added manually. Ruslik (talk) 08:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
If there was more than one interwiki link than the system would recover by copying the link to new german article from other articles (which hopefully would have been updated). However if there is only one interwiki link and no redirect is left than there is not much that can be done. --Jarekt (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the bot works correctly, but maybe something needs to be done differently at German Wikipedia. It seems that they break links without any thought of other wikis. --  Docu  at 16:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes they should not be deleting redirects, you can tell it to User:Artmax who deleted it. But you might have to explain it in German, since he does not seem to communicate in English. --Jarekt (talk) 03:24, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Deleting redirects after moves is valid but not immediately after moving (as usually done there). They seem to think german wiki is an island without need for partnership with anyone. Try to tell them these concerns but it's like trying to bite into steel. --Denniss (talk) 16:12, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
And importantly there are external sites that link to Wikipedia. Redirects are cheap, and should only be deleted if they are harmful, or recent and useless. Rich Farmbrough, 14:48 17 February 2013 (GMT).

Special:NewFiles and User:File Upload Bot (Magnus_Manske)

While patrolling Special:NewFiles, I often find the page filled with pages of uploads by User:File Upload_Bot (Magnus Manske) I have "show bots" unchecked, but I noticed that this bot's uploads were still appearing in the list. I checked the bot's right's log and found that it doesn't have the bot flag. I read the bot policy and learned that "some but not all bots may be flagged with the bot flag." However, the bots that do have the bot flag have it "to hide bot edits from user watchlists, recent changes and new images lists." Since the New Files list is frequently swamped by uploads from File Upload Bot, is it possible we can give it the bot flag? I realize this may not be a clear cut solution, but I'm interested in the response this receives. MJ94 (talk) 06:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I assume that's because this Bot is not used for typical Bot actions but is part of several upload tools, usable by many users. --Denniss (talk) 07:44, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
That's it (plus, this thing is old). That said, if you want it to have a bot flag, I'd be fine with that too. --Magnus Manske (talk) 11:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I would prefer that the bot had a bot flag. Users will be able to choose whether or not they wish to see those uploads, which often make it difficult to pick out the uploads by individual users. I would really rather that the uploads were associated with the account that initiated the bot upload, but I suspect this is not technically possible. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:43, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately this bot may be used to upload problematic files such as File:Logo A.S. Avellino.svg or derivative works from Flickr. So keeping eye on this bot is good idea. Showing its uploads always will increase chances to spot problems. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I second this opinion, these uploads need to be monitored. --Denniss (talk) 18:15, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I completely agree that many of images uploaded from Flickr are problematic for one reason or another, but the bot flag will not impede anyone's ability to see the uploads of this bot. One could simply check the box to show bot uploads if they are looking at recent uploads, or they could simply look at Special:ListFiles/File_Upload_Bot_(Magnus_Manske). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
There is no enough volunteers to patrol already well known problematic areas like files without license of category. Adding another blind spot will be not helpful. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
The bot is also used to batch-categorize files through CommonsCommander. It would be appreciated if a new account could be used for this task as it goes out of scope of an upload bot. -- Rillke(q?) 21:20, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Even so, Eugene, sometimes I don't want to look at the bot's uploads. The hide bots option is there for a reason and if it can't be constructively utilized, what's the point of it? MJ94 (talk) 04:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

If bot could act on request of untrusted users, it's not trusted bot. Why not to have other filtering options except bot flags? Why to filter only this particular account contributions? --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

CC-BY Landsat 8 Images on Flickr

Hi, I just noticed this set of Landsat 8 images on Flickr: Images are available under CC-BY 2.0 Would be great if someone had any time left to transfer them. Landsat 8 on English Wikipedia. Regards, Peter Weis (talk) 13:38, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

What is the correct licence for? CC-BY 2.0 as tagged by flickr or CC-BY 3.0 as in the description? I guess given by the description (CC-BY 3.0) is the right one, so I will import this images with this licence to Category:Landsat. --Slick (talk) 18:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
All done. I add the CC-BY 3.0 as in the description, but FlickreviewR edit this to a CC-BY 2.0. I dont know this is correct and anybody should check this and maybe correct the license back to 3.0

--Slick (talk) 19:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

February 13

Magnificent CME Erupts on the Sun

I'd like to direct an admin's attention to the edit request (and reqiest for clarification) here. Feel free to remove this section once it's been resolved. Cheers, -sche (talk) 09:15, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Context: this is a request for an edit to the text for POTY candidate File:Magnificent CME Erupts on the Sun - August 31.jpg. - Jmabel ! talk 20:14, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

February 14

Coats of arms

Is it necessary to rename all arms within the project? User:commonsDelinker cant replace all files in the Projekt. There are so many redlinks or empty boxes in the Projekt. The arms are renamed from Coat of arms XXX.svg to Emblem of XXX.svg. Like File:Coat of arms of the Bahamas.svg, File:Great Seal of the United States (obverse).svg, File:Emblem of Qatar.svg and so on. User:Rkt2312 has started so many renamings Cheers -- 03:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

This is being discussed on Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems‎... -- AnonMoos (talk) 06:29, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Grant for consolidating wikiArS to involve Art Schools

Hi, This message is to inform you that I have requested an Individual Engagement Grant (personal grants for projects that benefit the Wikimedia movement) to the Wikimedia Foundation that would allow me push the initiative wikiArS in the coming months, between spring and autumn.

Since last academic year (see Llotja and Serra i Abella) we are collaborating with Schools of Art and Design to generate missing images for Wikipedia (and publish it to Commmons) or outreach materials (and publish it to Outreach wiki). This year there are already seven schools contacted, 4 of which have already begun to work. With this grant I could increase my time commitment to coordination and support to volunteers, consolidating the project. The idea is also to produce a travelling exhibition and supporting materials.

In Commmons there are many photos liberated by its authors and too many old images in the Public Domain. But not so many didactic free illustrations and infographics that can help make the encyclopedias content understandable. And that's what we try to provide engaging art schools and scientific advisors to guide them in creating images.

You can read the proposal here:

Any comments or suggestions are welcome in this Village Pump or on the discussion page of the proposal. In addition, to the IEG succeed it needs the support of the community, so I ask you, if you find it interesting, to give your support in the Endorsements section.

Greetings. --Dvdgmz (talk) 12:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

  • As a Spanish national and administrator in commons I fully support this proposal. The long protection period granted by the Spanish laws and the infamous URAA makes it really difficult to get proper images of 20th century persons. That's what I've said in meta. Best regards --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 13:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

POTY: Disqualify a finalist picture?

No idea where the best place to post this is, so: File:Darvasa gas crater panorama crop.jpg is a fine image indeed. It's one of the pictures I voted for in Round 1. Now it's a finalist - and it has been placed on the main page as "Picture of the day" for today, see also main page talk. Isn't this giving this specific picture an unfair advantage? I think it should be disqualified from the contest, but don't know if this is really possible now, or if I'm right at all... well, maybe it's not that much of a problem, after all the description says nothing regarding the contest. Gestumblindi (talk) 20:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

  • We do not plan on disqualifying this image from Round 2 of the competition. There was no indication that this image was in the POTY contest and voting is not possible from the image's description page. Many POTY voters may have never seen the main page, but it is impossible to gauge the impact it had if any and it would be unfair to disqualify a fairly-chosen image that received popular support. All the POTY images were presented in random order as well. We regret that this occurred and will make sure to address any problems with the POTD organizers in the future. Mono 00:26, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I think it will be hard to avoid some PotY candidates to being PotD during the vote. PotD are usually selected 1-2 months in advance. PotD in the beginning of 2013 (during the PotY 2012 vote) will be chosen late in 2012. At that time most of the available good choices for PotD are from 2012 (and PotY 2012 candidates). There are many older FPs that could be PotD, but I think most of the FPs that someone wanted to use as PotD have already been used. /Ö 10:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:2012 photographs and all of the other [year] photograph categories

What is the purpose of the Category:2012 photographs and all of the other [year] photograph categories? I took over 1,000 photos in 2012 and uploaded them. Do you want me to add the Category:2012 photographs category to all 1,000 photos. I don't mind, but the photo count for 2012 will jump compared to other years. --Mjrmtg (talk) 22:56, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I can't say what the actual purpose is, but it would make sense as a way to get a snapshot of a particular year. What did 2012 look like? What were the cars/clothing trends/whatevers? That said, a lot of photos never seem to make it into these categories. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:50, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
I also do not see the purpose of Category:2012 photographs. I am OK with Category:1912 photographs and I like a little more specific categories like Category:2012 in Estonia. However Category:2012 photographs is too broad to be useful. --Jarekt (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Most of those pictures should be in more specific "2012 in..." categories, which should in turn be subcategories of that one. Whether it's useful for things like flowers is debatable. Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
For what clothing looked like, "Fashion in [year]" is more useful. There are topics for automobiles, countries, cities, and a great number of other topics by year. "2012 photographs" IMO should be for examples of the technical state and practical application of photography in that year. I don't think every photograph taken in a given year ought to be in the "[year] photographs" category; if they are illustrative of that year, there are probably better choices of categories. -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the year as such is important. Category:2005 photographs may already seem sufficiently far back, but if we had started at the beginning with new images, it would already be in place.
Somehow these categories should make it possible to view Commons photographs/media by the time they were taken/made. Similar to what can be done at other websites.
Eventually one might have thought this would be implemented on the MediaWiki side, but it still hasn't happened.
Maybe we should built categories directly through the date available on {{Information}}. --  Docu  at 06:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Categories through {{Information}} sounds like a great idea. Perhaps as a Category:Images from 2002 (flat) or some-such. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 20:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I think these categories are almost useless in themselves, but considering a future category system which could intersect them with other categories, they don't seem so pointless. --moogsi (blah) 21:10, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

February 9

Trinidad painting

I have a permissions statement related to a photograph of a work by Michel-Jean Cazabon who died in 19881888. The painter is from Trinidad, a signatory to the Berne Convention. That Convention allowed countries to choose longer terms. However, I do not see Trinidad in Commons:Copyright rules by territory, so I am assuming they are following the Berne values, 50 years after death, so I do not need permission from the painter's heirs, just from the photographer. Does this sound correct?--Sphilbrick (talk) 17:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes and no. In this case, it's a safe guess that the copyright term of the country is shorter than 125 years after the death of the author. (I didn't understand why you asked the question until I saw that you made a typo in the year of death.) But if the death year had been more recent, you could not have assumed that the country has the minimum conventional copyright term just because the page on Commons does not include information about that country. In those cases, one must search for the actual copyright term in the country's legislation. If the information can't be found easily on the country's government sites, then often the wipo website can be a good place to look. -- Asclepias (talk) 18:03, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I've looked at the wipo site. If I read the law correctly, the copyright duration is 50 years after the author's death. As for the photographer's rights: see Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag. In short: if the work is 2-dimensional, for example a painting, you can use the {{pd-art}} tag, as it is assumed that making a faithful reproduction of such a work does not generate new copyright. --rimshottalk 19:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
OK Per Trinidad and Tobago copyright law
19. (1) Subject to the provisions of subsections (2) to (5),
copyright and moral rights of the author shall be protected during
the life of the author and for fifty years after his death.

Looks like it is clearly beyond copyright.--Sphilbrick (talk) 20:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the help, but it appears I need one more thing. The upload is here File:View of Port of Spain by Cazabon.jpg, and it has a red request to please specify why the underlying work is public domain in both the source country and the United States. Where do I put the answer? Assuming the answer is that copyright has expired in Trinidad. Found it. --Sphilbrick (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Logo of Classical Chinese Wikipedia

The logo of Classical Chinese Wikipedia is zh-classical:File:Wiki.png, which have been used and agreed for the community since the project has started. However, User:Odder have changed the logo to File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-zh-classical.png without seeking the opinions of the community of Classical Chinese Wikipedia. As the administrator of Classical Chinese Wikipedia, I hope the administrator of Wikicommons help us to change the logo back to the former and formal one as soon as possible. Thanks for your co-operation and consideration.--ItsMine (talk) 10:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I've already replied on [7] and notified the wiki locally. --Nemo 11:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Call for translations

The 2012 Picture of the Year committee needs help translating finalist captions into as many languages as possible. This helps make the top 2012 images accessible to people around the world. Some POTD translations may already exist, but please visit this page and try to help us translate the finalists. Thank you for your help! Mono 21:01, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Cycling-related photos

There's a large collection of open-licensed pictures of cycling infrastructure at which may be of interest to someone with a bot. Andy Mabbett (talk) 17:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Afterthought - do we have a page where such collections are listed, for future reference? Andy Mabbett (talk) 17:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Commons:Free media resources. --Martin H. (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

17 February

Commons:Valued images/Recently promoted


This page needs help adding categories. See Commons talk:Valued image candidates/candidate list#Commons:Valued images/Recently promoted for explanations. Thanks, Yann (talk) 16:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thumbnail showing deleted copyvio image

File:Муравьиный лев.jpg was an image originally uploaded by User:Alexandronikos and then deleted in July 2012 as a copyright violation. In November 2012 User:Гликман Елена uploaded a different, non-infringing image with the same title. However, the thumbnail in the "File history" section of the image page still shows the original infringing image. Could someone please investigate and fix this glitch? —Psychonaut (talk) 19:06, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Purge your Browsercache - fine for me. --Denniss (talk) 06:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I did that prior to posting this report, and was still getting the old thumbnail. I've tried again now and the correct one is displayed. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
See also COM:井戸端#Zhang Zuolin2.jpg 220px and w:User talk:Stefan2#File:EmploymentAndUnemploymentInGreece.png. Is there a way to fix this? I've certainly not looked at the photo of Zhang Zuolin before seeing the discussion at the Japanese village pump, so there can't be an old copy in my cache, and I get exactly the same result as the guy who reported it there (i.e. 220px is one photo of Zhang Zuolin, other resolutions is a different photo of Zhang Zuolin). --Stefan4 (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Also curious is that the section "file usage on other wikis" says that this file is in use in a pl.wikipedia page... that was deleted almost two years ago. -- Asclepias (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Not seeing image

I am trying to add an image File:00 Duck Down recording artist, Promise.jpg to w:Promise_(rapper), but it isn't appearing.

I note the existence of a comma in the file name, is that a problem? Or am I just impatient, and need to wait? --Sphilbrick (talk) 19:22, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I see, someone used the parameter "Image". Should have been "image". Fixed.--Sphilbrick (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

February 18

Speedy deletation is beeing too speedy or some doesnt understand the policy !?

Accelerated by user Psychonaut(talk), photos were deleted in matter of few hours.

Converts and envelopes :

File:Транс Сибир конверт.jpg
File:Конверт Транссибирская магистраль.jpg
File:Postcard of Serbia.jpg

which were marked with

{{File:Traveling Russia.jpg}}

...were made by me, with all stitched photos exepct two 13th century frescoes. And yet they were deleted not passing even chance for discussion. For other two i cant even check out since were deleted instantly. --Mile (talk) 18:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The deletion reasons were because they were scans of postcards or envelopes (i.e. somebody else's copyrighted work). Even if you made the scans, they would still be considered copies of the original work. If you think the photos or other artwork on the items being scanned are themselves out of copyright, you can file a request on Commons:Undeletion requests. Lots of copyvios get uploaded every day and many are not really worthy of a discussion (they are pretty obvious cases) and so are deleted without discussion (that is what "speedy deletion" is). As with anything though, mistakes can always happen, so the undeletion page is the place to go at that point. I can't see the deleted images but obvious scans of copyrighted material would be speedied more often than not. If the photographs on the postcard etc. are old enough (usually 50-120+ years) their copyright might have expired. A 13th century fresco would not have any copyright but a photo of it might. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thats the point, not scan, but all photos on envelpoes were mine too. --Mile (talk) 15:55, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I restored these files. I think you should send a written permission and indicate where you got the images used, or upload them. Regards, Yann (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Which is to say, in terms of permissions, you should go through the process outlined at COM:OTRS. On the other hand, I wonder whether these images are in scope or not. - Jmabel ! talk 16:52, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
If the photos on the envelopes are yours, then why is there a publisher's imprint from Russian Post? Did Russian Post use your photos on their stationery, allowing you to retain copyright? Or did you forge this stationery to make it look like it was published by Russian Post? If the latter, it's no surprise the images were suspected of infringing Russian Post's copyright. In any case, you need to explain (on the relevant deletion discussions) how this stationery is in-scope for our project. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Massive batch job (con'td)

Continuing from Commons:Village pump/Archive/2009/08#Massive batch job, I would like to reiterate the need to upload content from the free collections available at,, and similar sites.

Graphical representations are an invaluable asset to many of our projects. I cannot count the number of times I've seen our icon sets used to illustrate information that would have otherwise been dull and lifeless. However, our collection of such images is limited and contributors are often forced to simply make do with what is readily available.

As proposer, I am willing to invest the effort necessary to determine which galleries are suitable for inclusion. I just need a little manpower and the aid of a bot.   — C M B J   04:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Note: One of the above sites, All Silhouettes, has ceased distributing files under compatible licenses since my original 2009 proposal. This is regrettable because we could've benefitted substantially from dozens of galleries on that were previously available under CC-BY 3.0. I will personally contact the author to seek compatible licensure if we can manage to act on this proposal.   — C M B J   05:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi CMBJ! We have a dedicated page for requesting batch uploads: Commons:Batch uploading. LX (talk, contribs) 18:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Where is written that this image was released under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license? Here you can only find: License: free. Insufficient as well because what does it mean? Free to download? Public domain. I have my concerns about these files from this site. --High Contrast (talk) 20:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Where? It's CC-by Andy Dingley (talk) 20:52, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Use of PD-Art template

In the file File:Rosshouse.svg, how does one fix the problem: template without parameter: please specify why the underlying work is public domain in both the source country and the United States

Thanks, HowardMorland (talk) 19:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

The first question is why File:Rosshouse.svg is in SVG format in the first place?? As for the licensing template, {{PD-Art}} on its own used to automatically insert PD-old-70, but after the U.S. supreme court decision in Golan v. Holder that's no longer advisable. For anything first published in the United States before 1923, you can just use {{PD-US}}... AnonMoos (talk) 00:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
P.S. I extracted PNG File:RossHouse.png from the SVG. The SVG should not be used, and in fact should be deleted... AnonMoos (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Stop ! wait a minute, my browser says it's 21,591px × 27,941px, quick ! nominate it for featured picture first ! :) Penyulap 01:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Category:Categories of X" – a subcat of "Category:X", or vice-versa?

As those of us full-time working on categories might know, a <<Categories of...>>-page is parented by its topical category, e.g Category:Categories of Romania would be a subcat of Category:Romania, and not the other way around; In this form, Categories of Romania by century is contained in Romania by century, and not "Romania by century" in "Categories of Romania by century". However, following this and this edits, we are now down to settle this question which all of a sudden has become not so obvious as it's been throughout a long period. Please share your keen insight and knowledge here. Orrlingtalk 14:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposed guideline for self-promotion on commons

I think this proposal by Pitke should be official, it seems some thought has gone into it.

In general, I'm starting to feel like we should make up a "how-to" for self-promotion on Commons. Allowing a bit of tasteful self-promotion and having some set guidelines on what is "tasteful" might be good in sense of getting quality content. Some suggestions:
  • No disruptive watermarks or signatures on photos.
  • Encouragement to upload photos with very subtle or no watermarking as watermarked images are way less likely to be used, i.e. less visibility.
  • Link to one personal website or entry at a collective website in the Author field is okay
  • Factual not-strictly-commercial info on personal userpage is allowed (ok: professional scope, awards, diplomas/schooling, further links to personal websites; not ok: price lists)
  • Allowed to have "Media by [Name]" hidden cats. We already have those.
  • Encouragement to upload higher resolution (QI can only be awarded to author-submitted files--annual awards also demand a high resolution)
  • Encouragement to upload valuable (in terms of VI) and/or unique content; the more interesting and "desirable" the image is to illustrate Wikipedia, the more it will be used, i.e. more visibility to the author
  • Link to a comprehensive "Categorising 101"... which I feel should be made in any case.-- Pitke

I wonder how it is possible to encourage people to upload VI and QI images ? should negative reinforcement be used for volunteers who fail to comply ? Penyulap 11:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

These all sound like reasonable guidance to me. I would also explicitly permit:
  • Links to businesses that a user works at or operates on their user page, provided they're a contributor with useful uploads (I generally consider this "information about the user", rather than advertising);
  • User-specific license templates with statements along the lines of "if you wish to license this work from the author, contact them here", which can also add the "Media by [Name]" category mentioned above.
It's also worth noting (although perhaps not in this guideline) that we obviously do permit signatures from notable artists who habitually sign their work - this is normal for works found in museums, etc.
I suggest that after hashing this out here we launch it at a guideline page, such as Commons:Self-promotion. Dcoetzee (talk) 18:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
there are pics with multiple signatures Penyulap
Sounds reasonable. I also worry sometimes that artists and contributors generally are being duped in regards to attribution when their userpages are wiped out. The thing is that most editors are unaware they can add attribution to images, but as for adding attribution to written contributions, the place the editors tell the public about who they are is their userpage. Usernames are limited and often not long enough to say what people would like to say about themselves, so they use their usepage for that purpose. It's great if you'd like to use your full name, and even better if it is available, but there is no disambiguation page for usernames, so linking the user attribution to the userpage in policy would be something to consider. Penyulap 20:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Asahel Curtis typically signed his photos, many of which are in the public domain because they were published in the US before 1923. Are we therefore not going to allow them, because of the signature? - Jmabel ! talk 00:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I could take it off the shirt too, but what if they start with tattoos ? (argh!) Penyulap
Yes, and any artist who signed their paintings as well :)
If the the signature or watermark is an intrinsic part of the value of a file removing/disallowing them would be foolish counter productive.--KTo288 (talk) 04:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I think the hope at Commons is that, as we have the capability to, we should put all metadata outside images because it makes the pictures more usable. Currently we only go far as to strongly discourage watermarked images. I also dont think going any further than that is helpful --moogsi (blah) 01:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I reworded the original suggestion slightly. My original thought was to "strongly discourage" watermarks like these practically useless unless heavy photoshopping takes place, usable but very iffy, better but still immediately noticeable... --Pitke (talk) 14:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
There is also the angle that if a watermark is small enough to be unobtrusive, it's often also small enough to be removed entirely (a modification which any license compatible with Commons will allow). So it seems kind of pointless to put it there in the first place. It doesn't seem to jibe with the concept of free cultural works in general --moogsi (blah) 16:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Should the manner in which artists attribute their work be restricted ? A limit to the number of websites, like main website, personal website, collection, email addresses, full size versions, request page and so on, or just leave it to the contributor ? Penyulap 06:29, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we can limit attribution. That would be like re-writing CC licences. If I ask for 12 websites and 40 relatives to be attributed, then I have that legal right. I don't think CC has a limit on bytes of attribution.--Canoe1967 (talk) 06:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
oooh, good point. Penyulap 07:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Less confrontational wording in help pages

Should we consider asking people about changing all the wording from "strongly discouraged from uploading" to more positive alternatives such as "encouraged to upload high quality images" and "encouraged to upload watermark-free images" seems threatening people with barnstars and praise rather than blocking and banning might be the go.

It is something of a larger subject, as there are a few pages and not all of them are about userpages, so maybe a separate RfC about wording might be useful. The phrase "strongly discouraged" from uploading low quality images, or watermarked images and so on, seems to contradict itself, either we want them or we don't want them, (let's make up our minds, no?) Penyulap 01:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I generally agree, but just one contributor using watermarks (often simply because they don't understand that we discourage and will remove them) can massively expand the backlog of images that need watermarks removed, which is not automatable. The message I really want to send to contributors is "you can use watermarks if you really want, but we will remove them, so it's not going to buy you anything." Now if you can rephrase that in non-confrontational language go for it. :-) Dcoetzee (talk) 07:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  Support, may be better writing "everybody can remove them" instead of "we will remove them. --Túrelio (talk) 07:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I did a few watermark removals lately and was thinking that I should try my hand at automating it. The language 'we will' is nothing but a tale, same as 'we will finish the project' it'll never happen in a meaningful way, some of the images are not worth removing the watermark from, but ARE still useful. I often scan and google and search for textures to use in 3D drawing. You never need the whole image, sometimes just the hair of the horse, the cloth of a shirt, the clay brick, it's all useful really, and OMG we are all going to be on the news as a bunch of old people who hoard things and never throw anything out until council comes along with 10 garbage trucks, the coppers, and has a big intervention, oh, shit, where did we go wrong. ..yeah, where was I, it's all useful, we don't NEED to do ALL of them, unless it is automated. So I'd figure there is no need to say that we will do it. Sounds a bit confrontational still. Like, better say we welcome it all, though, if you don't watermark it, it is more likely to spread and get into articles and other works and so on.

1) For watermarks, how about "Watermarked images are welcomed on the understanding that other people may remove the watermarks if they like. Images without watermarks tend to be more popular than those that have them. Images without watermarks released on SA licenses must credit the artist, by name, for their work even though their name doesn't appear in the image itself."

2) For size how about "Images of every resolution are welcome on commons, and are used on many projects. Low resolution images and icons are generally ineligible for recognition as featured works"

Actually that's a shame isn't it, as there are some kick-ass icons out there, and we do nothing to encourage it. Penyulap 09:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure why we need to even address the watermark issue, other than to state plainly and firmly "watermarks will be removed". ""Watermarked images are welcomed" is simply not true. I think the various proposed texts above (in respect of watermarks) give false impressions and are more likely to result in disgruntled uploaders than anything we have now. I am not in favour of any the language discussed, and believe we should stick to "Watermarks are strongly discouraged" and directing uploaders to Commons:Watermarks. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
But who will be forced to remove all watermarks ? we're volunteers (except the wmf people on $4,0000/week, but I can't see Sue doing the work). If we can't force people to remove the watermarks, and the images are still useful, then wouldn't it be disingenuous to say "watermarks will be removed" ?
I notice that Commons:Watermarks describes itself as a proposal. That's not the same as policy, it means it needs more work before the community as a whole agree with it and adopt it as a rule. I notice that it is quite outdated too, the methods for removing watermarks don't reflect the methods I use, which are free, quick and easy. Penyulap 14:28, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, exactly. So why would we make the situation worse by making false statements like "Watermarked images are welcomed"? I'd rather stick to language that reflects our objectives rather than misleading uploaders. We have way too much work to be doing anything that increases the number of watermarks that need to be removed.

And, yes, it is proposed policy. So we shouldn't be doing an end-run around it here. Either suggest changes, or recommend archiving it, but I am not sure it is helpful for us to start running off in a different direction.

At the end of the day, I agree with Moogsi's comments. I don't think any of the proposed watermark language is helpful, and some of it is downright detrimental. I can't see any reason why our guidance would change from strongly discouraging the uploading of watermarked images. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:40, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't mean to say I am not in favour of more helpful language (esp. for the non-watermark issues). I think, however, we can be more helpful without diluting the main message. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps the wording you're looking for is something like "All watermarks are subject to removal, limited only by volunteer time and energy. Please don't upload watermarked images, as you're just making more work for someone else." That makes clear that any watermark can be removed, and that in an ideal (automated) system, all watermarks would be removed. cmadler (talk) 03:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
That is good wording, though I worry because I ask, 'is there any damage being done by images with watermarks being stored on commons' if so, is it worth the risk that words can be misinterpreted and good contributors can be made to feel unwelcome by a minority ? Certainly I agree with Pitke that this image is "practically useless unless heavy [work] takes place" but if that was thrown out, contributor and all, 'baby with the bathwater' then someone documenting horse breeds would miss out on this image and this one as well, maybe along with the photographer. So does having the 'grey area' in interpretation outweigh the risk that we'd completely embarrass the project as was the recent case, or editors would be made to feel bad. Are beggars going to be choosy when we have space for everything ? There are plenty of criteria for file deletion and disciplinary action, and I don't think proper editing and donations should be included on a slippery slope at such a cost. Seriously, why add new reasons to argue with contributors when we want their work and help. Let's be crystal clear, knowing there are other remedies for deleting actually useless images, and better reasons to be blocking people. Penyulap 06:07, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Crux, are watermarked or low resolution images welcome at all

1) Watermarked images are welcome on commons. 2) Low resolution images are welcome on commons.

can we decide at the least if these two statements are correct or incorrect. Not something else is better, not we're going to frown and grumble, but these images, by themselves, if they are wanted or not. Penyulap 15:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

like asking which kids don't want to play chasies anymore. There are so many stupid arguments people divide into those who want no part in the arguments, and so don't affirm the mission, and those who just want to argue with the uploaders, who don't say a word. Unanimous disinterest. Penyulap 06:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Short answer: they are accepted. They will not be deleted, and the uploader will not be punished. Whether they are welcomed (enthusiastically) would depend on the particular image.
Long answer: Both watermarked and low resolution images are lower-quality than images without these issues. We prefer high-quality images, but particularly for rare subjects, low-quality images are much better than no images at all. If someone does not have access to images without watermarks for whatever reason, that is no reason not to still upload the images (for example, some old photos contain timestamps added by the camera). If people are adding watermarks just prior to upload in an effort to preserve attribution for their work, they should be advised that such an effort is futile, as the watermarks will be removed. It is more common and accepted for authors to upload reduced-resolution versions of their own works, so that they can retain exclusive rights to the high-resolution versions. Unlike the adding of watermarks, reduction of resolution is not a process that can be easily reversed, and higher-resolution images have more diverse uses and more commercial value. Dcoetzee (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

What about a guideline page that has examples ON the page ? Maybe people would have a clue what the ... they are talking about. Examples of watermarked images before and after, showing that the images are useful, showing people that hey, why bother adding watermarks, or why worry ! People won't get so unreasonably upset. Penyulap 09:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure, that's a good idea. We can show before/after examples of watermark removal to demonstrate removal in a visual way. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

February 4

Categorisation of people by historical countries and lands

Hi, I have a question regarding the categrorisation of people related to historical countries, on a case of Slovenia. Slovenia came into existence as an administrative term no earlier than 1918. There are many people who are regarded as Slovenes (e.g. the poet en:France Prešeren, 1800-1849) who did not live in Slovenia but its predecessor land, Carniola (which was not an independent country, but part of first the Austrian Empire and then of Austria-Hungary). Should these people still be categorised as 'Poets from Slovenia' or should a separate category, 'Poets from Carniola' be created? I see two advantages with the subcategorisation: the main category is not overwhelmingly filled and we stick to the historical facts. There must be similar cases with Germany, Italy etc. How has this been solved there? --Eleassar (t/p) 08:59, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a perpetual issue on the Commons. Typically, our categories reflect today's geopolitical names and borders. Otherwise, one would need an advanced degree in the history of any given region in order to find images and other media. Remember, Commons categories serve a different purpose than categories and articles on the Wikipedia projects. While we strive for accuracy on the Commons, the main objective of the category structure is to organize media in a logical fashion so as to best assist Commons users in finding the media they want. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, if this is typical, then we should obviously use such categories only when really necessary. Thanks for the reply. --Eleassar (t/p) 20:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Agree with the above. This problem is one of the major reasons why we use the "People of xxx" notation (and not "People from xxx"), so they can "belong to" several countries (and regions, cities, historical entities) without really having a clear nationality. --Foroa (talk) 09:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

search fail?

what IS wrong with the "search"-function on here!? for the last few days, everytime i enter a search, i have to refresh it REPEATEDLY to get any results, & yesterday there were times when it wouldn't work at all, even after multiple re-loads...

Lx 121 (talk) 04:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

no problems for me, I just checked as well. I highly recommend using a ubuntu live CD to check. It doesn't change anything on your system and would tell you instantly if it is the Internet / router / commons or if it is your system. Penyulap 04:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
You've been having the problem only for the last few days? Lucky you. For me it began several months ago. The first try for a search works 50% of the time. Usually, the second try works. -- Asclepias (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC) Addendum: But you're right, something could be even worse than usual today. I saw that other people complained today on other talk pages. And just now I checked and the search worked only after many refreshes. -- Asclepias (talk) 06:13, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
It's very good if you name your operating system and browser. Penyulap 05:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I think he means Special:Search, not something that runs on his local computer. --  Docu  at 05:47, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
HI AGAIN; & yes, just to be clear, i mean "the search function in mediawiki @ commons". my computer works fine, my webbrowser seems to be working fine (ubuntu & firefox currently), but when i try to search anything @ commons, i get the above-stated problem: 0 results on the first attempt, & it takes one or several refreshes to get mediawiki to give me anything. i've noticed it (meaning "the server(s)", i'd assume) can be "pokey" before, & occasionally encountered simillar problems in the past with a 0-result on the first attempt at searching a word (even when i KNOW we have matching items in our database), but it's gotten MUCH worse recently. (possibly there is a problem with one of our local/mirror/whatever "nodes"?) Lx 121 (talk) 06:56, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Hm. Now that you mention it, I have had this as well. Yesterday, a bunch of searches including this showed zero hits. I thought "how bizarre" and moved on, thinking it was probably user error, but comparing search strings and URLs in my history, they are identical. Once you have results, it seems they're there to stay, but adding &fulltext=Search to the URL can make them disappear again. It's almost 100% certainly not a browser/OS error, but for those keeping tally, this is on Chromium nightly build on linux. Storkk (talk) 09:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Same problem with the search at wikipedia as well. Obviously a major bug has slipped in. I search for images with "ken rosewall" and "margaret court" and usually get no hits at all yet I know I have uploaded images myself on these subjects and can see them under my contributions. Kinda bizarre but what we have here is a failure of our search engines to communicate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
At Bugzilla, there is:
  • Bugzilla:43544 (2012-12-31) -- "Should return error message (rather than "zero results") when search fails"
  • Bugzilla:42423 (2013-01-13) -- "Wikimedia wiki search is broken (outputting inconsistent results)"
A new one from January was closed as a duplicate of the previous:
  • Bugzilla:43920 (2012-11-25)-- "Frequent search timeouts at Commons returning no results"
The error message suggested at Bugzilla:43544 seems like a good idea until things are fixed. --  Docu  at 11:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I hesitate to mention this, but I have been seeing the "bits" server timeout again, which may be a clue. Rich Farmbrough, 14:22 17 February 2013 (GMT).
Bits timeing out would be unrelated. Bits is responsible for javascript and css. It timing out may make pages look ugly, but should not affect search results. (I'm not aware of any known issues with bits server, so if you repetitively have that problem, you should probably report it to bugzilla). 16:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Those kind of errors have been reported since almost 7 years (See Commons:Bugs#Search, but the problem is taken only seriously since a couple of months, probably because of its intermittent character. Maybe they are working on it so that the problem surfaces more. With a bit of luck, it will be resolved this year. Please don't hesitate to complain on the bug list; if the bug is only reported by one or two guys, it stays in the low priority category. --Foroa (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful work love to see which state which time zones

Frist of all the people who work on this site are doing wonderful.I am interest in seeing time zone with states included in a list.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Iwnsl (talk • contribs)
Look in Category:Time zone maps of the United States. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:18, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Many states cross multiple time zones. The precise boundaries are quite complicated. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:14, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

External editors

The instructions for using an external editor we link to are at The instructions require installing the Firefox addon at

This addon has been disabled. Therefore both the instructions, and advice referring to the instructions are wrong.

Rich Farmbrough, 14:10 17 February 2013 (GMT).

If you are talking about something on Special:Preferences, please report it to bugzilla:. Otherwise change the instructions or {{edit request}} the change. -- Rillke(q?) 19:01, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I've changed the instructions. They're still dreadfully confusing though. Bawolff (talk) 16:21, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

People (and artwork) from geographical entities that don't exist anymore.

Hi everyone ! I was creating categories related to the painter Category:Georges de La Tour and was kind of disturb to see everything regarding his nationality and the country of origin of his work is "France" while this painter was borned, worked and died in the en:Duchy of Lorraine which was an independant country during his life.

He is now in both Category:Baroque painters from France and Category:People of the Duchy of Lorraine because I think lot of people would try to find him under a "from France" category so it is better to keep them both. I'm wondering now what to do in Creator:Georges de La Tour (Lorrain painter ? I know in English Wikipedia it is written "French painter" but he never had the French nationality :(.

If anyone has an idea to make this works smoothly or an official policy, I would be very happy :) Thanks a lot ! Léna (talk) 18:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Most of the time, when things are identified geographically on Commons, it is according to current state boundaries. Trying to categorize everything by every state that has existed throughout history would be a monumental task. At least some thought has gone into this: the category system doesn't call La Tour "French". He came from and lived in somewhere which is currently in France, so saying that he is "from France" is enough, even though it is not strictly accurate. Similarly, subjects of the Kingdom of Naples may not have Italian nationality, but they can be said to be "from Italy". It's easier than trying to know where every nation has ever been :)
Creator:Georges de La Tour, however, does call him "French", according to {{Nationality}} and {{CountryAdjective}}. There is nothing technically stopping anyone from adding "Lorrainois" or whatever to the supported values but it would be a ton of work with internationalization, and might not even make any sense as many historical nations have no intellectual presence on the other side of the planet. It's tricky, but note that the "Nationality" field is optional. Of course there are many pointless arguments about the nationality of people who never had to legally specify one, and even those who went as far as to renounce one altogether and become stateless --moogsi (blah) 06:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
TLDR: originating in a place and having a nationality aren't the same thing --moogsi (blah) 06:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Discussed directly above under "Categorisation of people by historical countries and lands"... AnonMoos (talk) 15:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I saw it right after! That'll teach me to start at the bottom and scroll up :) --moogsi (blah) 09:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
In case of people I think they should be classified by the nationality they identified with as it was at the time of their life. Julius Cesar was not Italian politician - he was Roman. Adam Mickiewicz is always considered a Polish poet, despite being born in place which in the year of his birth belonged to Russia and is now Belarus. Mickiewicz refereed to his birth place as Lithuania, part of. We can always add more nationalities to {{Nationality}}. As for cities, it is more complicated. they are usually classified based on current political situation, but some sub categories of "history of ..." categories might be categorize under different countries. For example Category:Szczecin during World War II is categorized under Category:Germany during World War II by location. --Jarekt (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Lua support on Commons

Lua programing seems to be supported now on Wikipedia, Wikisource, etc. See wiktionary:Module:languages or en:Special:PrefixIndex/Module:. Anybody knows if it is also supported on Commons? --Jarekt (talk) 17:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

woah, first thing I see is a security problem :) Penyulap 18:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Presumably you've gone and reported it?--Gmaxwell (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't but I'd be very excited if it is. Plenty of high complexity templates we can replace right off the bat. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, some of the most basic templates are horribly complex (for example {{ISOdate}}, {{Str len}}, etc. ). Some of that complexity result in pages ending up in Category:Pages where expansion depth is exceeded. Hopefully the logic of some of those templates can be simplified. However the first question is: is lua currently supported on Commons? I guess we can create a test to check. --Jarekt (talk) 19:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I just copied en:Module:Bananas and en:Module talk:Bananas to Module:Bananas and [[Talk:Module:Bananas]] and Lua does not seem to work here. Any idea what we need to do to get it to work? By the way It seems like "Module" is a new namespace on Wikipedia. It was added to en:Template:Namespaces today. --Jarekt (talk) 20:08, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
It is not, only some projects were included in the first deployment batch of the 18th − see meta:Lua. Jean-Fred (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Chat about Bot Policy and Global Bots on various WP/WM projects

Hello. My name is Randall Livingstone, and I am a faculty member at Endicott College (Massachusetts, US). Over the last two years, I have been conducting research on bots and bot operators on WP/WM projects for my dissertation (which was published under CC last year...check it out here if you'd like). Some of you may already know me from that project...for others, hello!

I am continuing to learn about the bot community for a current project and am looking to chat with anyone involved with bots and bot policy on non-English WP versions or non-en.wikipedia projects (well, really anyone who wants to talk about bots...I'm looking for all perspectives). Specifically, I am looking to understand how bot policies and bot approvals vary between projects, and how Meta Bot Policy and the global bot flag is recognized/not recognized by different projects.

I am bound by my English-only language skills, however. I you are interested/willing to participate in English, we could set up an online chat, videochat, phone call, email conversation, or start an on-wiki conversation...whatever works for you. Although this is continuing research, I am ideally looking to chat with contributors sometime in the next few weeks. Please let me know via my en.wp Talk page or email me here if interested, and thank you in advance.

This research has been approved by the Institutional Review Boards at both the University of Oregon and Endicott College. (Feel free to request a copy of those protocols).

UOJComm (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

February 20

Adding a title and author to audio files

At File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg when I play the file on Wikipedia, it has a default tag for a filename and blank for the audio file. How do I add the filename and author fields so they display in the Wikipedia audio file? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you want to do. Does the documentation at w:Template:Listen help? --moogsi (blah) 08:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for providing that! It helped me add some info. But if you go to "MENU" section of the Kaltura Open Source video platform in the Wikipedia page window, the "Credits" shown are blank. Do I have to modify the file to show the "Credits"? WhisperToMe (talk) 06:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Ah. Perhaps the player reads the metadata ("comments") from the ogg file, so you would have to modify the file itself. They don't get a lot of usage in wiki projects because they weren't standard for a while, and the file page seems like a better way to store metadata. Also, the MediaWiki software can't read them (like it does EXIF, for example). --moogsi (blah) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks! I'll look into modifying the file WhisperToMe (talk) 21:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

February 19


Can any German speakers explain what is "Rittergüter"? Wiktionary does not have it. German wikipedia has de:Rittergut interwiki linked to en:Manor. Google translate also translates it as "Manor", so what is the difference between Category:Rittergüter and Category:Manors in Germany? Can they be merged? Than there is Category:Former Rittergüter in Poland, we do not have Category:Former manors categories so it should be probably moved to Category:Manors in Poland. --Jarekt (talk) 03:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea how to describe the status of a Rittergut in the Holy Roman Empire in English, but please don't merge them into Manor. They are different --Michael Sch. (talk) 09:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
German Wikipedia disagrees with you, which links de:Rittergut to en:Manor. The German–English dictionaries I've checked give "manor" or "feudal estate" as the translation. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
They are similar but not equivalent as both are associated with different legal systems (HRR vs English law). --AFBorchert (talk) 12:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess that Ritter (knight) refer to the owners duchy, barons, nobility .. While manors in many countries refer to luxury large size dwellings built by wealthy people (and often large landowners). But one can never mix wealthy people that are no nobility with the real nobility. Never. Of course, dictionaries and links are not properly educated. ;) --Foroa (talk) 13:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
en:Rittergut is a redirect to en:Manorialism, which in turn interwiki-links to de:Grundherrschaft, not de:Rittergut... Gestumblindi (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Uploading embedded PDFs created through LibreOffice

Recently I have been unable to upload embedded PDFs created in LibreOffice. Some months ago there was no problem. The error message is: "This file might be corrupt, or have the wrong extension."

Does anyone know the reason for the problem (and can it be solved)? As these kinds of files become ever more common in the open content community, since they are extremely useful in numerous ways and facilitate adoption in Wikimedia projects, it would seem like something very important in terms of our basic support for PDF. Dovi (talk) 06:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe there are some security concerns with that type of files (The mixed pdf/libre office cannot be verified to not be a malicious java applet). Hence upoading that type of file is currently not allowed. See bugzilla:28188. It should not have been possible at any point to upload such a file. Bawolff (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the information! I replies at the bug. A solution should be found, because this is an important format that should be a basic part of PDF support. Dovi (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Altering Wikimedia Commons photos

Is it legal to alter a Wikimedia Commons photograph by combining it with my own photograph (i.e., take a painted portrait by Gainsborough and replace the head and hands with those of a contemporary person)?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Silvermines (talk • contribs) 2013-02-20T10:51:12‎ (UTC)
In general, this sort of thing is legal, provided you respect the copyright licence (if any) of the Commons photograph and the other photograph you wish to combine it with. Much of the content here is licensed under terms which require you to apply the same licence to the combined work, so don't publish your derivative work if you don't want it to be similarly modified by other people. In some jursidictions there may be other issues to consider, such as the personality rights of the contemporary person whose head and hands you are using. For example, it may not be permitted to use someone else's likeness in an advertisement to sell a product, or it may be considered libellous if you were to photoshop them into a scene which implies they are engaging in immoral or illegal behaviour. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC) can however alter the image to make a person do something illegal if the person is a public figure. If the person is unknown, you have to be very careful. Parody of public figures is OK, parody of unknown people can be deleted as attack images. So drawing the Russian President as a wolf devouring the queen of england is a cartoon, but someone online, or at school, doing drugs or robbing a bank for example is not generally acceptable. Penyulap 20:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
If the intent is parody, maybe. If the intent is to frame the public figure for a crime he didn't commit, I doubt you could get away with it. If you have the slightest suspicion that what you propose to do is going to cause legal problems for you or for the subject of your photo, then consult a legal practictioner licensed in your jurisdiction. Do not take advice from random strangers on the Internet. —Psychonaut (talk) 21:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
"Commons" will not stop you reusing images in this way, but the community here cannot advise you if you are breaking local laws, particularly when creating derived works of portraits of people. In the UK, I would have to be careful that the images did not constitute a hate crime, such as promoting homophobic hatred, or considered a form of libel for which I might be subject to a claim of damages. One thing Commons can do, is remove derived works where there is no reasonable expectation of educational use or where personal rights are not being respected. As for 'Whambo', no comment. -- (talk) 21:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
(I'm NOT mentioning local laws regarding livestock @ Commons:Deletion requests/File:Whambo.jpg it would be in baad taste if I did)
There's various issues here. You need to look at the license of the photograph and follow what it says. Despite all the files being free, they're still under all sorts of different licenses. Some of them just require attribution; some of them require you make your file free; some of them require nothing. There's rarely a reason to upload such an image to Commons. As for non-copyright laws, if you're adding them to an painting by Gainsborough, I can hardly see why anyone would have legal cause to complain, though I live in the US, and I know the UK and other places can get much more uptight about things like that.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if it will turn into a search for the answer to the oxymoronic question "Is there such a thing as politically correct parody that doesn't completely suck AND blow at the same time" Penyulap 21:44, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Turns out there was a legal problem with the goat, that image has been deleted, and the versions of Whambo with the goat have also been deleted, the solicitors have said that the goat has agreed not to pursue the case any further. Phew. ...and there's a new version. cewl. I can't wait to see what the reason is this time. Penyulap 05:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

How can I delete my uploaded File?

How can I delete my uploaded File? I couldnt find the space where I could enter this line : {{Reason}} I am grateful for your help! Thank you! -- 13:07, 20 February 2013‎ Villa Aurora Forum Berlin

You go to the uploaded file, edit the page and enter the template there. You can find the edit option on the top of the page. Even above the image itself. Cycn (talk) 13:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Not necessarily, only if there is a speedy-reason, or you must make a normal Commons:Deletion requests. -- ΠЄΡΉΛΙΟ 19:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Under General Reasons see #7 Dankarl (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

An important milestone

Yesterday we hit another milestone: 25 millionth articles in all Wikipedias.  . Congratulations! Bennylin (yes?) 16:59, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Odd file type 'correction'

Hi, can someone take a look at File:Groupe des hommes de la congregation de Ville-Marie de Montreal (HS85-10-12897) detail.webm? I seem unable to change the filetype to '.jpg' as the system seems to be forcing it to be a webm file. My original upload was definitely named with a .jpg extension. Some advice on how to avoid this happening in the future would be appreciated. Thanks -- (talk) 11:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe that is related to bugzilla:40479. --Jarekt (talk) 13:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, I can't actually see anything in that bug listing that covered this sort of systemic misreading. Certainly the system is bizarrely reading a jpg file I edited in Photoshop and then saved in standard jpg format, incorrectly as a webm file. I'm at a loss as to how I can do anything to fix this. The end result is useless for Commons. Thanks -- (talk) 14:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Fae -- that file is most definitely not in "standard jpg format"; it does not begin with standard headers (such as FF D8 ... "JFIF" etc.) and none of the tools I tried can handle it at all... AnonMoos (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the file is actually only 91590 bytes, and it does appear to be some kind of WebM, though maybe a corrupted one:

  • file 5.11-2 (with same version of "magic" file) in Ubuntu Linux detects the file as WebM. (And it would just say "data" if it didn't know the format.)
  • FFmpeg 0.10.6 detects it as WebM, but its framerate and frames appear to be unclear.
    • ffprobe is a format detection utility that comes with newer versions of FFmpeg. Alone, it says:
      Input #0, matroska,webm, from 'Groupe des hommes de la congregation de Ville-Marie de Montreal (HS85-10-12897) detail.webm':
      Duration: 00:00:00.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 18318 kb/s
      Stream #0:0: Video: vp8, yuv420p, 1292x1080, SAR 1:1 DAR 323:270, 25 fps, 1k tbr, 1k tbn, 1k tbc (default)
    • Using ffmpeg to convert from WebM to WebM gives with this status:
      frame= 1 fps= 0 q=0.0 Lsize= 33kB time=00:00:00.00 bitrate=271984.0kbits/s
    • Using ffmpeg to convert to JPEG outputs a series of 40 JPEGs with this status:
      frame= 40 fps= 0 q=24.8 Lsize= 0kB time=00:00:00.04 bitrate= 0.0kbits/s dup=39 drop=0
    • Using ffmpeg to convert to JPEG outputs a series of 40 PNGs with this status:
      frame= 40 fps= 3 q=0.0 Lsize= 0kB time=00:00:00.04 bitrate= 0.0kbits/s dup=39 drop=0

I don't have a good program to test whether the original file or "converted" WebM plays as a 1-frame movie. The JPEGs and PNGs come out with 40 copies of the 1292x1080 cropped image I assume we are aiming for. (I don't know why the number of frames is different when it's converted to another WebM compared to when the frames are turned into still images.) Fæ: On your local filesystem, can anything other than Photoshop open the .jpg? Is it 91590 bytes? --Closeapple (talk) 05:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately I've binned the original and emptied my trash now, so it's a bit hard to check. The file as it is on Commons just behaves as a video when I download it locally. I'm happy to walk on rather than try to reproduce the incident, but if this happens on another file conversion from Photoshop and then through the upload wizard, I'll certainly take care to keep all the files. Thanks for investigating. -- (talk) 19:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Do you use firefox? Is the firefogg addon installed? Firefogg tried to convert all files to .webm before upload. This seems to be fixed now: . Please try to upload the image again. Afterwards the .webm file can be deleted. --McZusatz (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

manmade clouds

Do we have any categories of clouds wich are artificial? File:Keulen-Weiden West station steam.JPG Smiley.toerist (talk) 13:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I guess that you might do some shopping in the Category:Smoke department. --Foroa (talk) 13:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Agree as a search strategy, though these should not be considered smoke. Does not appear as a subcategory of Atmospheric water, Fog, Steam, or Water vapor, tho the latter two have images that could go in such a category and there some in Fog and its by-location subcategories. Category:Plumes (probably the best technical name) redirects to Feathers. We have categories Contrails, Distrails, and Chemtrails. Suggest Category:Vapor plumes.Dankarl (talk) 14:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Category:Steam clouds? I.e: a water vapour cloud that is emitted (from a train, power station, volcano, etc) rather than condensing in the atmosphere. It's not like there isn't anything else to put in it --moogsi (blah) 17:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
  Done Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Transcript: Cleaned-up official or original with errors?

There is an audio file interview with an FBI agent here File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg

There is an official FBI transcript that is "cleaned up" removing grammatical errors and pauses ("uh")

Should the SRT (File:Sextortionagent interview.ogg) reflect the cleaned up official, or should it include the grammatical errors and pauses made in the actual audio file?

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It's good practice not to transcribe filler when writing subtitles. Same goes for bad grammar, repetition or insignificant pauses. People often use "Well," in English when posed a question, just before they've finished constructing the answer, which is also filler --moogsi (blah) 05:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Ah, ok. The pauses may remain (since they correspond with the speech) but I'll just put in the official transcript in place of the self-made one (I was initially unaware of the existence of the official transcript). Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

February 21

How do I access the "file:" page of the .OGV file?

Recently I tried all the way I can think of to access File:Speedhub 500-14 Aufbau.ogv by clicking on the gallery with .OGV file, and I can not figure out any way to do it. When I run into one of those files, the only way I know on how to access its "file:" page is to look at wikicode and cut and paste "File:Speedhub 500-14 Aufbau.ogv" from the code to the search window. Is there some other way I am missing? (I use Firefox and vector skin.) --Jarekt (talk) 13:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Click the play button, then click the menu button in the bottom right corner, and then click the link to the file description page that should be visible in blue in the middle. Voila! odder (talk) 13:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
For some reason clicking the link does not do much, but I can right click it and choose "open link in the new tab". That works, 5 clicks latter... --Jarekt (talk) 15:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Yup, the blue link doesn't work for me either. I'm using Mozilla Firefox. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Yea, I can confirm it fails to work in Firefox nightly, but a right-click-display-in-new-tab does work. I looked at the dom and it's not clear to me why its not working. --Gmaxwell (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Clarification on advertising: are PD adverts of educational usefulness and quality okay?

So before I begin an upload campaign, I would appreciate a clarification. I know advertising is not permitted, but what about advertisements? Namely, in many cases the only available illustration for many notable 19th-century businesses, railroads, historical trends, or technologies is an old public-domain advertisement. For instance, one I already uploaded from 1864, where the advert in question is about the railroad's continued security problems/destruction during the American Civil War, or this one from 1884, which is one of the earliest wagon precursors to the dumptruck. In these cases, where they are clearly used for their historical illustrative value (and needed for such on a WP project page), rather than advancing a current interest, is that okay? Morgan Riley (talk) 16:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Featured picture candidates awaiting closure review

Who is taking care of this site? Is there a time window in which the sites listed in this category must get confirmed? -- 15:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The voting period is 9 complete days counted from the nomination. Have any gone over 9 days?--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, many of those requests were opened for 9 days and have been closed by a bot. But this bot closures seem not to be sufficient because a user has to check the bot action in order to confirm the reult. -- 18:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

How do I change the viewing size?

When I am looking at galleries of images (here, in a categpory) it is miserable when they are all so tiny and then I can't really see to select best one. Slows down my editing to have to click on a lot of them. I would like a prefernce to update to make thme bigger. I went in and shifted thumbs to largest possible, but I still see the galleries tiny.TCO (talk) 14:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, there is no preference for that currently. There is a config option to change it for the entire site. Bawolff (talk) 16:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Gadget slide show. I often zoom in on my Chrome and IE browser. --Foroa (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Imagine I am old and non-techie smart and expain more please. TCO (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Try to read and enable Gadget slide show in the tab my preferences/gadgets. Help:Gadget-GallerySlideshow
Most browsers allow to change the zoom level (Control scroll up/down in Chrome and MS Internet Explorer). --Foroa (talk) 09:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
For Firefox, hold down the Ctrl key and then press + or from the Menubar look for View and then Zoom. If you tell us your operating system, we can probably tell you how to adjust the video settings so that everything on your computer screen is bigger. Penyulap 10:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Increasing browser zoom doesn't increase real image resolution (some images will look uglier). AnonMoos (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I could split out the size slider from POTY and make it a gadget if this is desired. -- Rillke(q?) 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Image rating

I made a small website where photos can me rated. Mostly I did this to prove to my self that I could. But now when I got it working I thought that I might as well share it if there is any interest of it. It uses the ELO rating system. The website is quite badly coded, but the code is there so anyone can change it. I don't know if anyone else has already tried this or if there is any interest of this. But anyway: her is the link: - Averater (talk) 13:38, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that the idea of rating images on Commons has been rejected as an unnecessary distraction from the main purposes of Commons which would invite vote-manipulation shenanigans, politicking, wounded egos, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 16:01, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
We already have a system, which works quite well imo, to identify and acknowledge the various kinds of excellence of our images: the trio Featured pictures, Quality images and Valued images. The galleries associated with each of these three categories are a valuable tool for anyone who seeks high quality media in Commons. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 16:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't expect this to be an official part of commons. Just wanted to share it to see if there is any interest. Of course I know this can be manipulated but not very easily if there are more than a few hundred images added. And I also know there are other excellent tolls for finding high quality images on commons but then you're missing the two mail reasons for this which both of you misses, "Because we can" and "For the fun of it"! - Averater (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
The wikipedia system is notorious for manipulation, sockpuppets run en.wikipedia outright, and for the Featured images and so on, there is some tendency for copycat voting, and judging by standards far removed from the readership's idea of what is a good image. New and other ideas are a good thing. Penyulap 17:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Changed my image rating web site address to - Averater (talk) 12:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Such ratings would end up being essentially meaningless, since the samples are heavily biased (raters are self-selected). On the other hand, if people reuser images, it'd be nice if there were an easy way for them to let us know that. Dcoetzee (talk) 19:13, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course would the voters be heavily biased and more so than in this kind of system than in the system used now (normal voting) as any voter can select how many votes to make but that bias would have a smaller impact than in a normal vote as the algorithm makes it easier to move towards the center of the rating than to the ends (top or bottom). That would make it a lot easier to make one particular photo lose (in the meaning drop from the top) than to win (move to the top). And if the selection of photos is big you would very rarely find you own photo and vote a lot more on others. (with 1000 photos would only an average 1/500 of your votes be on your own photo). I can not really see this as an option to the normal poty contest with its normal voting system but it might still be interesting. Averater (talk) 18:16, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Made a major update today if anyone is interested and I have now added categories and also the poty photos from 2010-2012. - Averater (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

For a Wyoming user

Hi, please see the Category:Episcopal churches in Wyoming, you find three images of the same church, this, can you categorize better this? Thanks from Italy. :-)--Threecharlie (talk) 03:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

  • You seem to be asking for something you could easily do yourself. Or am I missing something? - Jmabel ! talk 05:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know the "name" of this church and I cannot find this with a Web search engine. I can not do more, I have explained myself better now? Are three images that I like, since I'm not an administrator, I can still delete, you think you can do something (not for me, for Commons). Thanks--Threecharlie (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Commons:Chunked uploads – and reuploads?

Is there a way to apply changes to an large file and reupload the new version ontop of the file? The solution should not require admin rights. --McZusatz (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

are you checking the 'Ignore all warnings' box ? it seems to help. Penyulap 20:26, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
You have a Ignore all warnings box in UpWiz? -- Rillke(q?) 18:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess not, but you can try an undercoat drogue precursor thingy I figure,. Upload an icon and overwrite it with the ignore warnings box checked. Penyulap 06:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
You do not need chunked uploads for uploading icons. The issue is that the upload form does not support chunked upload, so you have to rely on a third party tool or write one your own. -- Rillke(q?) 15:04, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

February 23

Technical problem with AjaxQuickDelete

The AjaxQuickDelete script notified the user who created the template on ENWP when I created this deletion request, instead of the user who imported it. This is a bug with this script, although I am unsure of the maintainer and MediaWiki talk pages are rarely watched, so I am posting it here. Mono 00:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hide slideshow button in print view

How would I go about hiding the slideshow button in the print view of a page (such as this one)? — Sam Wilson ( TalkContribs ) … 02:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

This issue should be resolved. -- Rillke(q?) 14:56, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Is this a freely licensed photo

The additional requirements seem to contravene Commons requirements - File:Narcondam_hornbill.jpg ? - unsigned

  • I think you are correct, because we now require something at least as open as CC-BY-SA, and GFDL only is a bit more restrictive (in that it requires reproduction of a more lengthy license). - Jmabel ! talk 04:15, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
note that the image was uploaded 2011-01-15; without getting into the debate about what are & are not acceptable "attached-conditions" to our free-licenses, what we require "now" might not apply(?) Lx 121 (talk) 04:22, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
We require a free license, nothing has changed there; GFDL 1.2 is still a valid license. Nothing in the additional requirement contradicts the usual licensing requirements. --Denniss (talk) 10:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. This is free license and appropriate for Commons. The template on that page is just a more verbose version of {{GFDL-1.2}}. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 06:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
What about attribution of this image ... is required in a prominent location near to the image. Is this requirement allowed by the license or is it an unallowed additional term? -- Herby (Vienna) (talk) 21:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
It's actually slightly more permissive than the license itself. The license requires that you provide attribution on the title page of the work, but recognizes that not all works have title pages. For them, it provides that "'Title Page' means the text near the most prominent appearance of the work's title, preceding the beginning of the body of the text." – Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
There's another additional term, that "any reproduction [...] must appear with a copy of, or full (hyperlinked) URL of the GFDL license", which is also more permissive than the GFDL (which requires a copy of the license be included, not just its URL). A more permissive version of a free license is also free, so this photo's license seems fine to me. --Avenue (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

GIF animation clamping

Animation with frame durations of <= 50 ms are slowed down in Internet Explorer. I've created a report at User:Dispenser/GIF check that lists this and the image scalers freezing animations. Dispenser (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Animations with <= 50 ms (yellow) need a template explaining that Internet Explorer (<10) plays them at half speed. Animations with <= 10 ms (red/black) need to be retimed.
  • Non-looping animations should be deleted or reuploaded with loop, don't need fade in animations like w:File:Improper mag.gif.
  • File:Bolivianoaleman.gif a true color GIF should be reuploaded as a PNG.
  • See also bug 23063. Dispenser (talk) 20:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Location of phrase for its translation

Where is the phrase Click here to show further instructions of this template Speedydelete/es?

And where is the phare Please visit Commons:Upload help if you need to ask questions about uploading files. of the Special:UploadWizard. --Vivaelcelta {discussion  · contributions} 12:08, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

  1. Compare to the English (or a more up-to-date language) version. (I've added the missing param)
  2. MediaWiki:Uploadwizard-summary (English) // MediaWiki:Uploadwizard-summary/es (has to be created, you can {{edit request}} it at the talk page). You can find these messages either using the search or using the uselang=qqx parameter. -- Rillke(q?) 14:03, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
For last translation it isn't translated in MediaWiki:Uploadwizard-summary/es, there is translate it in Template:Upload Help notice --Vivaelcelta {discussion  · contributions} 12:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Exception to file size limit?

How do I get an exception to the file size limit? (message says "You can only upload files with a size of up to 100.00 MB. You tried to upload a file that is 129.75 MB")

There is a high res version of that was in an MP4 format. I converted it to OGV and attempted to upload it, only to be told that it was 129 MB

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Special:Preferences → Upload Wizard → Experimental Features → check the box for "Chunked uploads for files over 1MB in Upload Wizard", then go here (works about 20-30% of the time normally, although, last I heard, it's broken). Alternatively, you can download and use my upload tool Commons:Up! to the same effect. -FASTILY (TALK) 00:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! I'll try out the first, and if it doesn't work I'll try the second WhisperToMe (talk) 01:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
"to the same effect" -- you mean it works some of the time only? russavia (talk) 01:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I was able to successfully upload File:GirlsBewareHigHRes.ogv. I will add subtitles in English to try to make it easy for other Wikipedians to add translations WhisperToMe (talk) 02:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
@Russavia Oops, that didn't come out right. My tool works the vast majority of the time (usually dependent on whether a dev has recently broken something) for files under 300mb -FASTILY (TALK) 07:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

User templates and external links

Some times ago, I request about user templates (to do something on File-Pages) and get the answer that are not allowed. But I see a lot of template in use. The last one I see was this (i.E. used here). To explain, I HATE Facebook, dont use it and dislike to support them and dislike to see links here. So I really dislike this template. I only can understand and accept such links as attribution part of a CC License. It is ok to create templates, as this one, or it is just a mistake by the user? If templates like this are allowed, I need some help to create some own templates, with colored text, animated gifs and some links to other nice websites (i.E. with more and nicer girls than in Facebook) too --Slick (talk) 07:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

[8] -FASTILY (TALK) 07:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The templates are allowed. Penyulap 08:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The guideline could use some shortcuts that are easy to remember. Also "Licence laundering" sounds exciting and lucrative, it needs a much more boring name like 'yeah sure it is' Penyulap 12:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know off the top of their head some examples of the templates on image pages that point to the photographers websites ? I have seen plenty, but I can't recall where and I'm chatting with Heather and would like to point some out to her. Something well set out and professional, and maybe some of the institutional ones, I can add the examples to com:user possibly. Penyulap 14:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

BIG Problem with WGA links

While completing Artwork templates, I noticed that the syntax of WGA links seems to have changed [9]

Since the new adress doesn't use the same filenames, it does not seem possible to automatize the correction of links.

If someone can find a way to check those WGA links and replace them automatically, it would be great, since there are more than 20000 files potentially concerned :((

Maybe this is not the first time it's been signaled… --Hsarrazin (talk) 01:33, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, are you sure that the syntax has actually changed instead of just a typo in the original url? A much more similar url of seems to work for the diff you're linking to. I tried some random entries from and they all seemed to work (of course I only tried a couple). Bawolff (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I picked up a random page from original upload: File:Willem van Aelst - Still-Life - WGA0043.jpg, and all links seem to be fine. I tried another random one and another and they all have correct links. So I assume that the issue was unique to that one file, or some subset of files. It might even have been some mistake on my part, when I uploaded them (although that would be VERY unlikely ;) ). But even if we lost those links it would not be a major issue: they are provided as a reference and as a courtesy to the original site. May be even help with the traffic to that site. However major sites which serve as sources to images or data regularly flicker in and out of existence, and there is not much we can do about it, other than delete links that no longer work. --Jarekt (talk) 16:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so I noticed the problem on a dozen of files I tested, but perhaps it was a batch, and not "all" WGA links. Since I do not know how they are constructed, I was annoyed to get systematically an error message.
I'm (professionnaly) accustomed to systematically modify the way links are built on various site, to maintain "active valid" links, so I was very annoyed not to be able to detect a "pattern" that could be used to modify all those links…
If it does not matter so much, then, never mind. :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 19:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I prefer some kind of unique ID's that can be used to access each page or image, as well. However in case of WGA, there was no such thing. All the file locations come from, and if they were uploaded by my bot than must have been correct at least at some point, since I used them to download the images. --Jarekt (talk) 20:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

GeoData on Commons

Hi, I'd like to get GeoData used here on Commons. For those who haven't seen the announcement: it will allow to search pages by geographical coordinates. For this project, this means search for images first of all. To make it fully usable, {{location}} needs some changes. After they're implemented and job queue processes the pages using this template, I will run a script to update information for files that have coordinates in EXIF. The changes involve adding the following to Template:Location/layout:


Thoughts? Max Semenik (talk) 19:21, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I found useful to obtain data. I think sites like this are lacking on help pages and templates related to geodata. You may wish to add them with instructions.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I do not see any issues with adding this code to Template:Location/layout, but I have some questions. Template:Location/layout is used by many templates including {{location}}, {{Object location}}, {{Globe location}}, etc. I guess you can sort them out which one is which by attributes, are you sure you want both this for all those cases? The code would be the simplest is that is OK? Be also aware that some categories add geolocation through {{Institution}} template as in here. --Jarekt (talk) 20:28, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I see no problem with using all of these templates: what's needed is search by location, the exact semantics (location of object/camera) is not important. {{Institution}} can be changed, too. Max Semenik (talk) 11:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
“I will run a script to update information for files that have coordinates in EXIF.” − Not sure what that means? Normally, all files with EXIF coordinates have a {{location}} tag added after them (thanks to User:DschwenBot).
Just for curiosity sake: are there any planned/expected use cases for Commons? I can think of proximityrama for a start.
Also, would the distinction between {{location}} & {{object location}} made? And for categories using it as in Category:Categories with object location coordinates ?
Jean-Fred (talk) 00:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't know that all images with EXIF coordinate are also marked with templates, it definitely simplifies some things. No script run neededm then:) Max Semenik (talk) 11:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
As mentioned below, a discussion is already happening on Template talk:Location. It is mainly about on what to make primary in which namespace. My take: {{Location}} should be primary in file namespace and {{Object location}} in Gallery and Category namespaces. Otherwise they should be secondary. This should be semantically enforced! I.e. one camera location per image (collages can use the secondary parameter of the Location template) and one Object location per category (if you need two, break up the category). --Dschwen (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
re: Use Cases. The Mobile team is tinkering with contributions to Commons via Apps (see Commons:Mobile app) and will probably do something with this. Suggestions on what to do welcome! Yuvipanda (talk) 07:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  Done--ragesoss (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've rolled back that edit. It has already been included in {{Location}}. There is also an ongoing discussion on the talk page of the template. Not to sound stuck-up, but before editing a protected template that is in use on millions of pages a short visit to its discussion page seems like a good idea... --Dschwen (talk) 19:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Didn't realize where the discussion was going on, but I should have looked there.--ragesoss (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Two new extensions

Hey folks,

This is a short announcement that our team just deployed PostEdit and GuidedTour here on Commons today per request at bug 45170.

If you want to see how GuidedTour works in a general sort of way, you can force a tour by adding ?tour=test to any URL here. Note that in addition to any tours packaged in the extension, Commons admins can enable new tours in the MediaWiki namespace just like a gadget. If anyone wants an introduction to building a tour, there's documentation on

If you've edited in the last six months on most of the top ten Wikipedias, you'll already know what the post-edit confirmation message looks like. If it bugs you and you want to hide it, just add the following snippet to your personal CSS:

.postedit {
	display: none;

Thanks, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:32, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Do one have to understand why PostEdit is required for GuidedTour? Isn't this bad design? Libraries should not mess with the UI, I thought. GuidedTour — would be great if someone would take the time making an introductory tour for Commons. -- Rillke(q?) 19:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd be willing to make an introductory tour (I requested this deployment) but it is rather involved: there needs to be a plan, the JS file, and then that needs to be translated. Mono 19:11, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Making a tour on-wiki is much easier, rather than in the extension itself with an associated change to the internationalization PHP. The downside is that it won't have translations, but if you just want to test it with people and get feedback, making an on-wiki tour is easier. Anyway, to answer you Rillke: we are working on moving the wgPostEdit variable out of the extension and in to core, to remove the dependency. We agree it's preferable to minimize inter-extension dependencies like that. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 01:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Is there a plan for having translatable tours? If not, this reduces a lot the interest for Commons − though I guess we could duplicate tours (TourFoo-fr, TourFoo-en etc.) but this is not ideal (no fallback, extra maintenance, etc.) Jean-Fred (talk) 01:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Tours that are hosted within the extension use the same i18n/l10n system as the rest of MediaWiki. You can see an example in the test tour, which is localized to French and many other languages. It's only tours that are hosted on-wiki like gadgets that are very difficult to get translated (you'd have to write a separate script for every one). Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

February 22

Ratio of files used on Wikimedia projects

Hi all,

I was wondering what ratio of files hosted here were used on Wikimedia projects ; so I asked the Toolserver database and thought I would share what I found out here.

    FROM `globalimagelinks`
    WHERE gil_page_namespace_id = 0
        AND (gil_wiki!='metawiki');

which after one hour and ten minutes returned 8,710,633

So, unless I am missing something (which can totally be the case, my SQL-fu is *very* rustry), around 8,7 million files, ie 53.6 % of Commons, are used at least once in the main space of a Wikimedia project (excluding meta).

I am not sure what to do of this number. Does that sound remotely legit to you?

Jean-Fred (talk) 13:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I would be surprised if that percentage was correct. --Jarekt (talk) 13:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Think so too :) Jean-Fred (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
If an image is used on multiple pages, is it being counted multiple times? Some files are used on thousands of articles (eg stub templates and location maps).--Nilfanion (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Nope, shouldn’t be in this count: I explicitely count distinct files. Jean-Fred (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Assuming "Random file" returns a random file, there's a lot easier way to get this number; hit it a few times and count the percentage and count the number in use. I ran it 10 times, and got a file in use in the mainspace 6 out of 10, which gives 60% +- 30% at 95% confidence level, or +- 40% at a 99% confidence level. You'd have to run it quite a few more times, but that's already enough to gives us a rough idea. So 53.6% sounds quite plausible.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:22, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I got 5/10 by this method. What do we know about what "random file" does? Dankarl (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
See w:WP:TFAQ#Is_the_.22random_article.22_feature_really_random.3F - its probably random enough for this. However, a sample size of 10 is just too small to confirm if 53% is plausible. If 53% is wrong then a big enough sample will identify that clearly. I'm working on a 1,000 image sample (of the first 10 in my sample only 3 were in use...).--Nilfanion (talk) 12:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
A sample size of 10 is sufficient to give you the confidence levels I quoted, which is sufficient to say that 53.6% is in the right order of magnitude.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Would ns-0 on all projects include Commons pages such as, eg, Felis silvestris catus? That might drive up the numbers a little bit; I don't know how many images only appear on gallery pages. Andrew Gray (talk) 10:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
No, the table globalimagelinks only contains usage on other Wikimedia projects. Jean-Fred (talk) 11:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Aha. Scratch that explanation, then :-). It feels a little bit high to me, but perhaps we really do have more material used than we thought! Andrew Gray (talk) 11:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

If you're choosing 'random file from the menu, and it works anything like 'random article' then it's not random at all, I know 'random article' is not meant to be random at all outside of some limits.

A better sample may be obtained by choosing full days at random for study. Use the recent uploads and change the offset in the URL. More than half would be about right, but there'd be plenty of interesting data in the way it changes over time and from en to non en projects.

I think there is only about 23TB of files on commons at the moment. Penyulap 13:35, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes, that is what Commons:MIME type statistics says (see here too, though I do not see the link with the present discussion… Jean-Fred (talk) 13:58, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Well the topic being what percentage is in use would indicate what percentage of the 21 TB you'd need to provide storage for in order to replace wikipedia, specifically, the broken project The text of fits in the RAM memory of some machines, I think it's a matter of gigabytes. The images it uses however needs to be taken into account. Of course, after that you need to protect against DDOS and so on, but otherwise it's easy enough to fix the problem and provide a sane, workable alternative. Unless everyone on Earth is happy with a circa 2005 encyclopaedia with spaces freshened daily, some are. Penyulap 07:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok I checked 1,000 files from Special:Random (list of files). 34.2% are in use in main space on another project. This is significantly lower than the 53.6% found by Jean-Frederic and suggests either his query isn't behaving as planned or the non-random nature of Special:Random is affecting things. While special:random may not behave entirely randomly, there is no reason to believe it is heavily skewed to favour unused files over files in use, which suggest its the initial query isn't working as expected (perhaps counting duplicates or non-main space use?). Intuitively, 33% usage "feels" right compared to 50%+.

A day-based sample strikes me as worse for the purpose of estimating overall use as it will be skewed by several factors: Changing upload rates, the fact there is some correlation between upload date and usage probability, and the nature of bot uploads. Bot uploads are very rapid, have low usage (unlike a human uploading own-work, a bot has no desire to put a new image in an article) and are a high portion of the number of images on Commons. The analysis of such a sample would be interesting, but wouldn't answer "how many Commons files are used?"

A couple observations:

  1. There are 98 Geograph uploads in the sample, of which 1 is in use in an article. There are c 1.7M Geograph images on Commons, slightly over 10% of the total, so 98 is slightly lower than expected but isn't unreasonable of a random sample. The fact only 1% is in use shows how little of that bulk upload is actually used.
  2. 2 of the images (0.2%) are sexual/nudity images in nature: File:Fendi09.jpg and File:Pierneef 1934 Nude.jpg. Both are by notable artists and used by multiple projects. Which puts that in perspective, and suggests Commons is hardly swamped with that sort of thing...--Nilfanion (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The observation about images does not surprise me the least bit. Their image quality is laughable and their coverage not motivated by educational criteria. Quality wise it was a dilution of the commons image stock. --Dschwen (talk) 22:17, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad that File:Scutum Fidei on Holy Trinity pulpit - - 1061634.jpg was uploaded (it isn't directly used in an article, but it's linked from an article)... AnonMoos (talk) 05:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Multiple sources : How to ?

Good evening,
I just have modified the description of File:Jose_antonio_alzate_ramirez.jpg. As there were two different sources, I gathered them both in the same paragraph. Unfortunately, the one which I moved, which was probably the most eligible has vanished. I guess the syntax I used was wrong. Could someone more clever etc... Thanks in advance. Hop ! ET re ! Kikuyu3 (talk) 20:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Bonjour, Tu avais inclus dans le modèle information un paramètre inexistant, auquel paramètre tu avais donné comme nom l'url du site web. J'ai corrigé. Mais ça ne nous avance pas beaucoup, étant donné que ce lien ne mène pas ou plus à la source. De plus, pour l'instant, il n'y a rien dans la page de description qui indique l'auteur, ni la date de l'image, ce qui fait que le modèle de domaine public n'est pas vérifiable. Il faudrait chercher pour savoir si l'image se trouve encore sur le même site, à une url différente, et si ce site donne des informations sur l'image. («Hop !» fait un peu étrange à la fin d'un message rédigé en anglais. On commande au lecteur de sauter ?  ) -- Asclepias (talk) 21:29, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello, propably a little pb with license, since the original site removed the picture [10] :( / (en français) : il y a sans doute un pb de droits, vu que le site original a retiré l'image [11] :(
on the other hand, considering the date of death of the person represented (died 1799), any portrait made during his life can be considered "PD" ;) - which is probably the case of [12] or the picture concerned - seems to be "live portrait" ;) --Hsarrazin (talk) 20:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

February 24

Use of {{Assessments}} template

Recently, I implemented of Picture of the Day in {{Assessments}} (almost finished). But then I realized all the existing pictures using {{Picture of the day}} will be needed to be converted to {{Assessment}}. That becomes a serious problem for me.

Someone argued that we should have less support for other assessments except featured pictures and sounds in the template (right here), which made the documentation page of the template to show "parameters with less support". But in reality, pictures that are both featured and quality images use {{Assessments}} only, so {{QualityImage}} is virtually obsoleted in this situation (example here).

Now, I think we have the following options:

  1. Use a robot to convert all {{Picture of the day}} to {{Assessments}}.
  2. Disregard the implementation of POTD in {{Assessments}}.
  3. Use {{Assessments}} for future POTD, and leave the existing file pages as they are.

Please leave comments below. Timothy G. from CA (talk) 03:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

  • 3rd method Personally I support the third method, mainly because it is the easiest to do, but also utilize the {{Assessments}} to organized all the awards one file has. Timothy G. from CA (talk) 03:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't really understand the meaning of this discussion, mainly because I don't understand who uses these templates, on what images, when, etc.
nevertheless, in order to have a simplification of templates, I think it would be better that a bot would convert {{Picture of the day}} to {{Assessments}} (1st solution) - leaving different "layers" of templates, makes it very difficult to understand to newbies (like me) - I frequently encounter different templates to have the same effect, and it's really a PITA to understand which one is "the best" to use. They should be "merged"...
Also, one thing I would say, is that {{Assessments}} should be added to the list of templates to be ripped off "language links" (see discussion below) launched by Jarekt :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 23:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest to start with option 3, show that it works, and than drop a note at Commons:Bots/Work requests and quite likely someone will convert most of POTD for you. --Jarekt (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

February 25

Sound bug in File:GirlsBewareHigHRes.ogv?

Is there a bug in the software that prevents the sound from playing in File:GirlsBewareHigHRes.ogv? I downloaded the file I uploaded and the sound works, but within the Wikimedia windows it seems like the sound doesn't play... Thank goodness that I can put subtitles in these... WhisperToMe (talk) 06:05, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I can hear it just fine. Could be a local problem with your browser or computer. -FASTILY (TALK) 07:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Ah, okay. Good to know! If you are interested: do the subtitles match up with the audio? (I used a local PC copy to time the text to the subtitles) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I watched a couple minutes and the subtitles seem to match up just fine. Nice work! -FASTILY (TALK) 07:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! I hope to upload more of these and add subtitles to them :) WhisperToMe (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't have sound either - I'm on Ffx and on a Mac, if that can help to solve the problem… --Hsarrazin (talk) 20:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
[13] How about now? -FASTILY (TALK) 00:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
With direct link to the file the sound works, though only from right channel. Played from the file description page I get no sound, but the subtitles do work. (Firefox 18). MKFI (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Language link templates

Many {{Autotranslate}} templates use and display language links , stored in subtemplates ending with "/lang". In old days each internationalized template dispaly them since they were used by users to select language in which they wish the template to be displayed. In last few years java scripts like MediaWiki talk:AjaxTranslation.js, MediaWiki:AnonymousI18N.js, etc. are responsible for showing the proper language version of each template for logged-in users, and for displaying "Language select" menu in the sidebar, which can be used to select language of templates, for not logged-in users. Yet, many templates like {{PD-Art}}, {{PermissionOTRS}} still also show lines and lines of language links. Those links take a lot of space and as far as I can tell do not work for logged in users. The only way I can switch language of a template is to log out first. So the question is do templates like {{Uncategorized}}, {{PermissionOTRS}}, {{PD-Art}}, {{PD-old}}, etc. still need to display them, or shall we remove them as it was done in {{Flickrreview}}, {{location}} and many others? --Jarekt (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I wondered why those links did nothing, and why there were so many   - now I understand - you're right, there useless for logged users, and can only be used by unindentified users.
the PD templates are much too long, and part of that "too much" is generally the language links, so… I say YES, since the "Language select" menu works fine : YES, let's get rid of those ugly, place consuming, and useless links, and let's make the PD boxes smaller and more readable, and more agreable   (perhaps adding some colour and nicer logos) --Hsarrazin 21:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
And {{Assessments}} to be added to the list (see discussion above) :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 23:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Personality rights

Do w:Personality rights extend to famous animals in some jurisdictions? I have an image of a famous cat on its way and I am wondering if I should tag it with Template:Personality rights in case it may apply somewhere.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

[We think on Twitter] you should first find a legal decision where the argument has been invoked successfully. Meanwhile, please don't tag it. --Dereckson (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. --Canoe1967 (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, resolved.

Hair has rights. Penyulap 23:36, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
This is a human portrait, isn't it? --Dereckson (talk) 14:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't think Garfield thinks himself human, I figure you mean the hair, it was a portrait of Jimbo, I should upload it somewhere so people can still see it. I could email you a copy though, that is easy and ok. Or maybe it could be undeleted for half an hour a month so people could see it, like a art exhibit in a private gallery with viewings by appointment. Penyulap 15:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

February 26

Bot does not recognize signatures in the unsigned template

I realized that the archiving bots do not recognize signatures in unsigned templates. See e.g. the top six sections on User talk:Magnus Manske. Is there a trick here (except of placing my signature)? --Leyo 14:18, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Posible Vandalism

Hi. Patrolling I found someone upload a picture over another. I reverted. Now I found another user upload a new version over the other two. The first user seems simple vandal, but both users seems to attack same pages. Last one reverted all messages in his TP. Can someone please check this? Thanks. --Andrea (talk) 14:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I've deleted the overwritten files and left a message for other uploaders, although it seems that they're the same user.  ■ MMXX talk 15:04, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Maybe request a CU to all three? --Andrea (talk) 15:21, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Policy on categories and personal pictures

Question, what is the policy on creating categories? Can a user create a category to promote her/his image? Can a user upload personal images? --Tomascastelazo (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Please see:
Asclepias (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tomascastelazo (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

A complaint directed against user/admin Túrelio

User and admin Túrelio [14] behave in a bad way towards other contributors. He have an arrogant attitude, especially against newcomers. He also brags about "This admin has received 2 death threats by vandals" and have this posted on his userpage. He should not be an administrator.--Ezzex (talk) 13:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ezzex, you would have to supply a lot more evidence to be able to start a de-adminship review. I suggest a mellow approach of putting your evidence together and asking Túrelio to comment at a personal level, before bringing this to a noticeboard. I am not an admin, so I'm not part of some secret cabal which probably does not exist (as we are all too busy to have yet more channels for discussion), but I do a lot around here and I have found Túrelio helpful and thoughtful, so I would personally be surprised if someone presented a pattern of worrying behaviour. Sadly threats against admins are not uncommon, it is one of the reasons that being an admin is often an onerous duty rather than a pleasure. Túrelio is probably just recognizing that fact by noting this on their user page. Thanks (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Fæ, for notifying me about this complaint.
Though VP is the wrong location for complaints about admins and I'm busy in RL, just my statement for today:
A look at Ezzex's talkpage[15] might explain his posting, though I am somewhat surprised by it, as our last interaction was on January 13. Ezzex had uploaded a number of photos from very recent and thereby copyrighted statues located in Norway, which regrettably has no freedom-of-panorama exemption for such works (except buildings) in public space. Instead of speedy-deleting these uploads as copyviolating derivatives, I had opened regular DRs, in which I explained the copyright problem, such as Commons:Deletion requests/File:Oddvar Brå, statue (5).JPG. Ezzex's comments in two of them show IMO his unwillingness to recognize the underlying problem.[16],[17]
After the images were deleted by other admins, Ezzex left kindly-worded postings[18] on my talkpage, such as
  • "Give me some fucking answers"
to which I tried to reply calmly.[19] For me, it's obvious that he is still unwilling to accept that a photo of a copyrighted work of art is violating the copyright of the sculptor.
About his "newcomer" argument: in a comment[20] in one the DRs Ezzex said about himself "I've contributed a lot to Wikipedia and Commons", not exactly a newcomer.
And finally, about the userbox mentioned by Ezzex: maybe that's my way of coping with such nice things as User:Kill Túrelio[21] (the other death threat has be oversighted). --Túrelio (talk) 17:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Commons does not decide about copyright laws, yet the project has to abide to them. If you don't like the laws, then you should try to do something about them, but until then, Commons won't be able to host the images without permission from the sculptor. --Stefan4 (talk) 19:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
This is not mainly about the deletions, but about your arrogant behavior. I dislike it. For me it looks like you use this place to exercise power over members that are not so familiar with Commons. You have been her since 2006 and have a lot of friends/colleagues who perhaps back you up matter what ? And the deletion of those statues you mentions: What about this picture, which have been here sin 2009.--Ezzex (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see how the photo's time on site is of relevance. If the image is a copyright violation, then it must be removed. Freedom of Panorama is not necessarily something a majority have expertise with, and given the large number of files here, it can be easy to overlook a single image for a long time. Huntster (t @ c) 03:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
@Ezzex, you have called me "arrogant" already twice in this thread, without providing any evidence for your claim. To me, it seems that you consider me "arrogant" because I did not act according your wishes and instead gave priority to respecting Tore Bjørn Skjølsvik's copyright. --Túrelio (talk) 16:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, since you actually bothered answer my thread I will see you as less arrogant i future. However, I'm still not happy about the treatment I got early in January. I may not be new to Wikipedia, but Commons is pretty new to me. Also, I've uploaded over 300 photos to the project and deserve better treatment - and not a bucket of cold water thrown over me.--Ezzex (talk) 17:32, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

See ? admins are nice and read bedtime stories to children, what more do you want ?
What more do you want?

I'm not suggesting any desysop, but I think there is easily room for improvement for lots of admins. I think they tend to change the way they speak over time, maybe they are unaware of it, and maybe people are scared to mention it to them cause they worry over consequences. Who knows.

I'm reminded of a confrontational security guard I ran into who didn't recognise me. He stated to me You're not allowed in here which is a statement and can only be addressed by arguing with him. The better way, as his boss and my associates agreed, would be to ask a polite question that performs the same function without starting a fight. Like Are you lost? or Do you need help finding your way, where are you heading ?. I think it's easy to overlook the difference between asking a question and starting an argument, I think I noticed it here before, but I don't consider it a big deal.

Plus, people shouldn't always follow my example, I tend to filter people out, attracting the whimsical, intelligent, earnest, humour loving and so on, and repelling the people who take themselves far too seriously or have certain other traits. I can't imagine too many do the exact same thing. Penyulap 02:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I would like to thank Túrelio for summarizing the background. Ezzex, Commons requires that all contributors are able to communicate in a way that does not create a hostile environment for other contributors. This is especially easy on this project as the most productive contributors are busy with their own somewhat gnomic upload and categorization activities, that normally require very little interaction with others. The comments quoted here are hostile, so please reconsider your approach. You will get much more out of this project with polite persistence rather than demanding and swearing at admins. Copyright law is stupid, crazy, inconsistent, incomprehensible and maddening, this is not Túrelio's fault. Admins are not paid for their time, if they were, then their employer would have no tolerance for behaviour such as yours towards their staff. In short, grow up.

As with the general admin community that Penyulap touches upon; admins are an international group and this means that communications problems can occur. It is sometimes worth reminding users that run into difficulties of that fact, and reminding admins that it may be wise to at times hand off actions in dealing with difficult users to other admins with better skills of communication or tact. I have seen a few very active admins take actions that I find a little ruthless in approach, and seem unnecessarily close-minded to discussion of actions. This could improve but it is very much a tiny minority of the actions that occur. We do not have a form of 'personal development programme' for admins, and perhaps this would be an area that could help with maturing Commons to be a slightly more coherent functioning and welcoming project. For a very long time, I have been talking about having workshops on Commons and focussing this on current and prospective admins would be a good idea. The UK Chapter is not the only one to run Commons specific workshops for encouraging new editors to donate images, categorize and understand the community, and a small scale international programme of workshops (and virtual based workshops) focused on high volume contributors and prospective or current admins might be a positive way forward. Thanks -- (talk) 07:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Túrelio is a very good sysops, and going by personal interactions, he's also a good human being. (S/)He, along with Russavia, took personal interact in getting me out of a messy situation when I was merely discharging my positional duties on Commons. As regards to posting regarding death threats, I too got a nice one where a user said "And even if my work gets deleted i'll still stick around and trust me i'll make sure that your existence here is unquestionably challenged! Good luck and get a life." in a DR. I too made a checkbox of it. So, if Túrelio, is wrong with checkboxes, so am I, even if I am just a filemover. Please do say a few words against me as well, if it gives you peace of mind, just as you are doing for Túrelio. Hindustanilanguage (talk) 05:37, 28 February 2013 (UTC).

Help test out new mobile upload features

Starting today, the Wikimedia mobile web and apps teams are kicking off a week-long community QA sprint. We need your help to test out the new mobile upload features we've built and make them better! Please visit our event page on Mediawiki and sign up to test out the prototypes of our new Commons upload apps. You can also test mobile web upload features: donating an image to Commons, and inserting an image directly into a Wikipedia (or any other local wiki) article.

You're free to start testing any time, but our whole team (QA, engineering, product, and design) will make an extra effort to be available today (Monday February 25 starting at 17:30 UTC) on IRC, Bugzilla, email, etc. Come join us in #wikimedia-mobile, sign up for the mobile-l mailing list, and feel free to leave feedback on the event discussion page.

Looking forward to your bug reports :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I am sure that at this stage of the project you will already have addressed these obvious issues, but I will ask anyway. You talk about "non-free content" being added to Commons - you know that Commons does not accept non-free content, right? Many of the people using this will be new users - does the mobile app incorporate the same guidance about copyright that the current "upload wizard" does? Also, I believe that wizard lacks any guidance about country-specific restrictions on uploading images. It would be nice to see this incorporated in the mobile app, since it presents a major issue that needs to be addressed at some point. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Whether or not Commons technically accepts non-free content, some obviously does get uploaded here – the thing about qualitative coding is you have to call it like you see it :) What that research points out is that the number of these inappropriate-for-Commons uploads is fairly low (IIRC it was about on par with the number of original self-created works inappropriately uploaded to English Wikipedia instead of Commons, actually, though I don't believe I included that chart on that page). This is an important baseline to monitor, and if the ratio starts changing drastically as a result of mobile uploads, we can respond to that with more explicit instruction.
But to answer your questions: at this stage both the Commons apps and the mobile web upload workflow only allow for uploading to Commons and come with one default licensing option, CC-By-SA 3.0. For mobile web, there's no strong argument I can think of for changing this; for the Commons apps, which I think are actually much more of a power user feature than a new user feature (you'd have to understand the difference between Commons and Wikipedia, for one, and that's a pretty huge sign of not-newness!), there might be some reasonable arguments for adding in more licensing options in the future. Right now, though, we're just focused on getting in the plumbing. There has been talk on the apps team about reusing some of the educational material that was created for the UW, though it'll obviously have to be drastically simplified and de-cluttered for a mobile screen. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 00:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, Maryana. In my view -- which I'm sure will not be shared by either the development team or the vast majority of Commons users -- any app which does not make at least "best effort" attempts to ensure that the user is uploading material that is freely licensed, in scope, and abides by country-specific laws has not been properly spec'd out or designed. Your own documentation talks about users reading a WP article and being able to add an image, so there is no need for users to be familiar with Commons, let alone understand copyright laws, privacy issues, or Commons scope. Commons is already broken, but this has the potential to make it much worse. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I have filed an enhancement request: Bug 45438 - Open license acknowledgment when uploading first image your feedback and help is welcome there.--Qgil (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
That is a start, but not nearly sufficient. People do not understand what "in the public domain" actually means. Look at the current upload wizard. This is what you should be emulating, for each and every image, not just the first one. What that wizard is missing is information about the scope of Commons (see COM:SCOPE and Commons:Non-copyright restrictions) and the country-specific rules that apply to consent for publishing images (see Commons:Country specific consent requirements). This shouldn't be an "enhancement", this is be a reason to pull the app until you get it right. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I've signed up but it isn't letting me to add the app to my iPhone. Though I do have to agree with the concerns that have been raised and also the one license isn't IMO the best approach. Bidgee (talk) 06:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to iOS openness we can't publish unstable / beta apps that users can install and try instantly. This is why you need to go through a process requiring many pieces to change, including the publication of a new build (!). We are releasing a daly build this week, so by now your problem should be solved. Thank you for your understanding.--Qgil (talk) 19:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

"Taken on"

Is {{taken on}} something I should be routinely using on my uploads? Someone recently used it on one of my photos. I've always presumed that the 'date' field in the {{information}} template of a photo is precisely for the date taken, so why would this template be needed? - Jmabel ! talk 07:49, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The 'date' field in the info template can, in various circumstances, be filled in automatically with either the upload date or the date from the EXIF, both of which can differ from when the photo was actually taken. Hence the somewhat hedgy {{original upload date}} and {{according to EXIF}}, which are probably preferable to no date at all. For pictures where the author has taken and uploaded them, whatever is in the 'date' field can generally be assumed to be when the photo was taken. Of course there are cases where the date of creation and upload are the same, and it's not clear if the 'date' field was filled in automatically or not. It does seem a bit superfluous, though --moogsi (blah) 14:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Date field in the Information template should hold the date the picture was taken on. If that date is known than all the other dates should be removed. Templates {{original upload date}} and {{according to EXIF}} are useful if date when the picture was taken on is not known, but are totally irrelevant if it is known. Date {{according to EXIF}} relies on proper setting of the date by the camera user - I have several months of images taken by my with a camera that had year set incorrectly. --Jarekt (talk) 17:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

This was an image I'd uploaded myself with an accurate date & someone else added {{taken on}} to it. If I understand, what I'm hearing is (1) that was superfluous and (2) I've been doing this right & don't have any reason to change what I'm doing. - Jmabel ! talk 01:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I do not think there was any ambiguous about your date. I can see the value of templates like {{taken on}} in case images like File:Landesmuseum Bonn 2012-01-29-5054.jpg, where the date might mean:
  1. the date photograph was taken on
  2. the date painting was painted
In such case one should ideally provide both dates and specify which one is which. --Jarekt (talk) 03:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello, thanks for letting me know about the discussion. I have made that edit, and no it was not because the date that the photo was taken is unknown. It is because there are two works there and not one. The first work is that which is depicted on the photo, and the second is the photo itself. In theory I can see the possibility of several dates. We already put the date for the painting and not the date for the scan of that painting (although if known I would argue that both should be placed). In case if I wrote a lot, but not very clearly: Give the reuser of the media all the possible information where possible. Sinnamon (talk) 03:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Sinnamon, what would be the other work in the photo I originally asked about (File:Seattle_-_Westland_Building_02.jpg)? It is a picture of a building. - Jmabel ! talk 07:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
The other work is the building. Sinnamon (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
It is hard to imagine that someone would suspect that the date in metadata refereed to the date one of the buildings in the was build. However, adding {{taken on}} does not hurt, so not harm done. --Jarekt (talk) 17:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
In no way did I try to imply that you wanted to mislead anybody. In this particular case I would say that most sane people would understand that the date is of the photo and not of the building within 15-20 seconds (enough time to check the metadata of the image). I am willing to spend some of my time to save that time for other people. However, I believe that now we have spent 15-20 person-minutes talking about that. I guess there'll need to be at least 60 reusers of the image to make it worthwhile now. ))) Sinnamon (talk) 07:12, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

"Computer mouses" or "Computer mice"

Hello. I'm very well aware that mice is the plural of mouse. I've uploaded a pic File:Computer_mouses.jpg - So in that context I want to know if that here also the rule applies or the current name is ok? Hindustanilanguage (talk) 07:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC).

On commons I'm not entirely sure, but it would run to about 55,000 edits of lame discussion on
I'd just go with the first thing that pops into your head, or bing or google it. I lean towards mice. Penyulap 07:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Right, a real user problem. --Foroa (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I've moved this from AN/U to here. I hope nobody minds. Penyulap 08:18, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Hindustanilanguage -- sometimes there are what linguists call "bahuvrihi" or "exocentric" regularized plurals. E.g. a sabertooth is not a tooth, so the plural is most often "sabertooths"; the Toronto hockey team is known as the "Maple Leafs", since the players on the team are not leaves on a tree, etc. etc. However, "computer mouse" could be seen as merely an extended or metaphorical use of the word mouse, and not as a true headless or exocentric compound, so a regularized plural ("mouses") would seem less likely -- it certainly wouldn't be near-obligatory (as it is with "Toronto Maple Leafs"). AnonMoos (talk) 13:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Penyulap -- When actual real linguists talk about the "computer mice/mouses" issue, that's how they do it. We have an article en:Bahuvrihi. AnonMoos (talk) 14:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I read the article, it mentioned much rice and then I was hungry. I like mice, I had some mice as pets, they are so cute when they clean themselves, so I like mice.
Sorry, I ran out of quota on smart this week, I think it was the whambo discussions that did it. Penyulap 15:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Poppycock! Everyone knows the plural of mouse is meeces.[22] LX (talk, contribs) 23:27, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
ooooo, that so makes me want to shriek NPOV, but we dont do npov here, dang ! Penyulap 23:49, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear friends, as a filemover, it takes a minute or two for me to move the file to a new name. But I do not want to indulge in a renaming which is disagreeable to others or where there is a likelihood of fellow filemovers or sysops re-renaming it to what they feel is a more appropriate name. Hence I decided to avail the user problem noticeboard to get a consensus (now moved here). I'll go for a different name only if more of you feel it that way. This was also my strategy in my earlier postings on user problems noticeboard. Regards and best wishes to all of you. Hindustanilanguage (talk) 18:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC).

well, I lean towards mice, and AnonMoos seems to lean towards mice as well, cheeky LX could be put down as 'meeces' or looked upon as a humorous remark :) So if you like mice, that would be 3 which would suit the purpose of stopping a 1 to 1 argument and opening a discussion instead.
Your idea to bring this up is a good idea, it does keep things calm. Penyulap 23:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

"Female writers" categories

I'm posting here to get some broader attention to the discussion at Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/01/Category:Female writers from the United States. While I the vast majority of people who have weighed in there agree with my original contention that categories like this amount to nothing more than ghettoization, I don't think there have been enough voices to constitute a consensus on what might be a contentious matter. Additional opinions are strongly sought, especially women's opinions: as far as I can tell, all who have weighed in so far on this issue of whether it is better to separate writers by gender are themselves male. I personally would far more trust women's views than men's on whether separation like this is discriminatory or somehow positive (or neutral) toward women. - Jmabel ! talk 16:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Another example of strange category: File:Katie cook calgary comic expo 2012.jpg is categorized as "Female human". --Jarekt (talk) 17:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Please make germane comments on the "categories for discussion" page, not here. - Jmabel ! talk 01:22, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Hehe I've always thought that Female human and Female humanoid were a bit demeaning, however I put it down to messy usage of the English language, using terms like 'Girls' to mean anyone up to 80 years and so on. Penyulap 01:36, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Penyulap: I believe Russian is more extreme than English in that respect (девочки really can be any age). - Jmabel ! talk 16:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that if you have a category for all different types of writers from the united states except male writers, then that is problematic. Keep female writers as a category as it could be useful, but add male writers from the usa too. It will be a big category but some researchers might want to look at only male writers so it isn't completely meaningless and it prevents the writer/female writer problem. (am assuming you have another category for LGBT writers from the USA too!). Oh, and I'm a woman so my opinion counts! hehe

Are User page images restricted to images of the user ?

After reading comments in deletion discussions 1 2 about images on userpages, I wonder if we should make clear the policy page on userpage images.

Sorry INeverCry, I hesitate to disagree with your interpretation of Project scope, but appearing on Dr. Blofeld's user page is not a policy based rationale to keep unless Dr. Blofeld can verify that this is an image of himself, if so I suggest we rename it to File:Dr. Blofeld at home. [.....] -- (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If policy changes or is interpreted this way, it effects every single user who has an image on their userpage, so I mention it here. Penyulap 23:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Penyulap, could you do me a big favour and list here the forums where you are shopping about for support for your bizarre use of Jimmy Wales' portrait on another person's topless body and that of a semi-clothed child? I'm losing track. By the way, your selective quote above missed out the quite explicit policy statements, you might want to include those as you are lobbying for a policy change rather than just being against my personal interpretation. Thanks -- (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I think you forget that you are the one who didn't get your way in the series of deletion requests you've made and so you took it to the admin noticeboard instead. Quite a show with claims that Jimmy is not a notable public figure, and claims that this image with Jimbo's head on it is anything but flattering and adorable.
So tell us, are we allowed to have images on our userpages that are not pictures of ourselves ? I doubt I'll get a straight answer. Penyulap 00:09, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
The "straight" answer is to read Photographs of identifiable people and comply with it. The File in use in another Wikimedia project section within Project scope is clear enough, the images you have created by manipulating photographs of Jimmy Wales, cannot be justified against that official policy. Thanks -- (talk) 00:16, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I wonder what you'd call a long answer avoiding a yes/no response. I know the policy and comply with it. Why not discuss the Whambo images in the deletion venue ? It's the proper place, and why not let people know, yes or no, if they can have pictures on their userpage that are not pictures of themselves ? Penyulap 00:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
There is no yes/no answer to this question: The answer is that it depends on the circumstances. Images are almost always restricted to those that already meet COM:SCOPE and all other policies. After that, use (on a User page) is further restricted to ways that also meet all policies, including Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. (For example, there certain images that, while meeting COM:SCOPE for being uploaded, might violate Commons:Photographs of identifiable people or other policies unless they are only used in a certain way.) Both the image upload, and the use on the User page, have to meet guidelines. --Closeapple (talk) 03:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

February 28


Do any of you know, perhaps, if File:Poorya0014.JPG might have come from somewhere? Drmies (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

. See here for example. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Add Template:Copyvio to have it deleted, include the above URL.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:17, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Cologne tram maps

I updated File:Netzplan Köln technisch english.jpg. It is clearly an jpeg export of a vector image. Can someone upload the original image, or update the image and render a new jpeg image? - unsigned

Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

February 21

Commons mobile uploads testing week

Uploading pictures from mobile devices to Commons must be simple for everybody! The Wikimedia Mobile engineering team has fresh software and you can help testing it.



Qgil (talk) 07:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

March 20