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User talk:Foroa/archive 2012

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Persian languageEdit

Hello. About those recent RVs., "Fârsi" is the local name of the language and is not an English word. So, for example, saying "I speak Farsi" is like saying "I speak Deutsch!" (instead of German), which is ridiculous. Also please read this. --Z 21:59, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I reverted you attempt to rename all Farsi related categories into Category:Persian language/en:Persian language for several reasons.
First, one does not change unilaterally and substantially category names and structures that are usually created for very good reasons, without having a discussion on it.
More importantly, before merging Farsi into Persian language, you have to think how you will name and structure:
  • the various version of Persian through history: Old Persian, Middle Persian, Early New Persian, Classic Persian, Contemporary Persian, ...
  • the various varieties of Persian: Western Persian (Persian, Iranian Persian, or Farsi), Eastern Persian (Dari Persian, Afghan Persian, or Dari), Tajiki (Tajik Persian) and the regional dialects: Hazaragi, Aimaq, Bukharic, Dzhidi, Dehwari, Darwazi, Pahlavani.
  • the various related languages: Luri, Tat, Lari
As you can see, Persian language has to accomodate a series of languages and related structures, so one cannot merge all categories relating to contemporary Western Persian language (called Farsi here) into that global category. Commons is not a newspaper that limits itself to the current preferred name; we are a server for encyclopaedias that are not vulgarising all items under one single name.
The ISO language code for contempory Western Persian is fa from Farsi, and yes, if you look into the interwiki links at the left of most pages, you will see Deutsch as this is not the same as German language. --Foroa (talk) 07:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

PLEASE. Revert those revisions. You are completely wrong about this. There is no Wikipedia in this language! --Z 14:00, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I see no reason why my logic would be wrong. --Foroa (talk) 14:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)



--Nevit Dilmen (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Roman province of Dacia (106 - 271 AD).svgEdit

Hi! What is the right way to "merge back" two older versions of this map: File:Roman province of Dacia (106 - 271 AD).svg. The versions are:

They "branched" or got duplicated at some point with no obvious derivative work. I guess they should be deleted but I want to make sure that all articles which use them, will be redirected to point to the latest version. Thanks! --Codrin.B (talk) 17:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

This is touchy. The maps are not identical at all since as a very minimum, they use a different color scheme, other differences might be subtle but important. Moreover, it is not clear which map is created by whom. As you added the duplicate tag, the duplicate could be replaced by the original (or older) one. If an administrator will remove the so called duplicate, which I doubt, he will send it to the commons delinker for global replacement across all using wikis. --Foroa (talk) 12:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually it is pretty simple. All maps have been created by the User:Andrei nacu on Wikipedia EN, without being aware of the ability to upload over previous versions, thus branching. Once the maps got moved to Commons, he continued solely on the File:Roman province of Dacia (106 - 271 AD).svg version. As for the other versions, they have been moved by two other users from WP en without any changes and without knowing of duplications. I checked with User_talk:Antemister and he simply moved the map. The other map was moved by User:Jaime85 who is no longer active and also didn't change the map. The difference in color was introduced on January 14, 2011 by User:Andrei nacu as he resumed work on the map. To summarize, the two maps in question are older and not really changed, but duplicates of older versions. I think they are redundant.--Codrin.B (talk) 13:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of Categories (Thuringia)Edit

Hello - please stop this im working in the Category Tree systematical (see Baden-Würtemberg) --Metilsteiner (talk) 20:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC) Please visit the exambals and revert all actions and the deleation of templates

Category:Architectural elements in Landkreis Karlsruhe
Category:Architecture of Landkreis Karlsruhe

--Metilsteiner (talk) 20:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I had to change already hundreds of your categories which are not legitimate meta cats. I don't try to correct them any more, I just delete them. --Foroa (talk) 21:45, 27 December 2011 (UTC)


Hey, thanks a lot for creating a Category:Lakhota_Museum_Jamnagar, am processing few more pictures to upload. Categorizing ll help all images keep organized. Thanks. Rangilo Gujarati (talk) 11:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome. --Foroa (talk) 14:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Old versions of filesEdit

Good afternoon, could you please purge the old versions of several files? The reasons are: wrong orientation, wrong orientation, new image has better quality, new image has better quality, new image has better quality, retouched, retouched, wrong orientation, wrong orientation. Thank you very much.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 10:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I fail to see what is wrong. --Foroa (talk) 12:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Old versions of those files (visible in a table down the page) are much worse in quality, so I think it's better to delete those old versions.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 18:05, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
That's wikipedia; nothing can be deleted, only hidden. Why should we bother to do such an effort ? --Foroa (talk) 14:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
To decrease the mess. OK, I see you simply don't have time for this, so I'll ask someone else. Don't mind, please  .--PereslavlFoto (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Category:Liste der Baudenkmale in BassumEdit


What was your intention with this category? What should it mean? --High Contrast (talk) 23:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

No clear idea. That happens all the time: in Special:WantedCategories, I try to empty senseles categories, move others to correct names, and others (like this one with 63 items) to insert in a sensible place. --Foroa (talk) 06:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I have moved it due to the incorrect title. --High Contrast (talk) 09:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Great and thanks. --Foroa (talk) 09:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


<removed ugly notice template> Oops, didn't see that it was you. It's not an really an issue, just a little imported template mess. Rocket000 (talk) 06:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit warringEdit

Foroa kindly cease edit warring at Category:University of Pennsylvania alumni. From previous discussions you know very well this is contentious and there is no policy to support "Commons naming standard" - X of Y is just your preferring naming pattern. You also know very well to discuss contentious changes, I feel you are abusing your editing privileges when you start acting unilaterally and edit warring over the category names. If you really would like to change the name, start a discussion. Benchill (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The two forms where existing with contents. I just merged into the correct form as used worldwide in Commons. --Foroa (talk) 06:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Move catEdit

Hi Foroa,

I removed some lines from cdl/cmd because the mediawiki software wasn't able to process all templates correctly. Please keep that in mind, when adding requests, or people like me will delete categories that are said to be empty! a×pdeHello! 14:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

As you like. I keep Siebot fed in an non stop way since yesterday morning. It processed already several thousands of category moves, even overnight. The template process limitation is only for the display. Glad that you take it over from me; it has been a hard rush. You need only to add the categories for century 0 to 16 (except 10 and 15 that are done). Enjoy. --Foroa (talk) 14:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
The display is major issue!
I deleted several cats until you told me, that the display may be wrong!
But you knew about that and added thousands of lines, at the risk of people passing by and removing "obviuously" empty cats ...
Btw. I don't take anything over. All I wanted is to move ONE small cat, but this request hasn't been fulfilled for hours!! a×pdeHello! 14:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

10th-century of 10th century?Edit

Looking though my watch list, I see some bots doing what it seem as contradicting work. If you look at the history of Category:Romania in the 10th century, User:SieBot and User:JarektBot go back and forth with the 10th-century vs 10th century formats. What's the right name? SieBot seems to be winning here. Even more bots fighting here. A war? ;-)--Codrin.B (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that too. RussBot is involved in the war to although he's helping both sides (by fixing redirects). I looked at your contribs to see what format you were using and it appears you're at war with yourself. What is going on? :D Rocket000 (talk) 04:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about me? What did I do? :-D--Codrin.B (talk) 17:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I meant Foroa. Indent was misleading. Rocket000 (talk) 23:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
As a noun it should be "10th century", as an adjective "10th-century". "Romania in the 10th century" uses it as a noun. - Jmabel ! talk 04:49, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. I didn't pay attention to how it was being used in the renames I saw. Rocket000 (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
It was moved by SieBot to an existing redirected category that was bounced back by RussBot. Amazing how few reactions the rename of 12000+ categories generates, as if it happened on another planet. --Foroa (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The {{Move cat}} now at User:CommonsDelinker/commands/tempEdit

all the cat moves have been done, however due to the expensive parser calls in the template the page was basically crapping itself. I have moved out all the completed requests (and now at User:CommonsDelinker/commands/temp). We can still see the functions, just need to be aware that the this page will still crap the parser, so that only the first few hundred or so (at any time) will show the requisite moved/to go count the rest will say 0/0 at where it timed out. If necessary, we can cut it down to smaller bite sizes.  — billinghurst sDrewth 16:20, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for creating Category:Caricatures of politicians of the United StatesEdit

Hi there, Foroa, I hope you're doing well! Just a friendly heads up: I noticed that back in June 2010 you had created the category Category:Caricatures of politicians of the United States. Letting you know that I've created Category:Caricatures of Rick Santorum as a sub-category off of your original parent category. So thanks so much for your great idea! Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, in process of adding a bunch more subcategories. Thanks again, -- Cirt (talk) 18:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Category:Caricatures of politicians of the United States — Check out the category page again - I've cleaned up all the pages so the categorization leads to sub-categories for everything I could find. :) -- Cirt (talk) 00:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I did not create the parent category, only structure to allow for "organic growth". Amazing how there is more than one new category per minute, heading for two million Commons categories, and still working. You did a nice clean-up, although I don't like the waste of time and energy to make separate female categories; categorisation levels should allow for a data reduction of a factor of 10 to 200, not two and a half (and what about the children ?). --Foroa (talk) 07:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't create the male/female subcategories. But thanks very much for your kind words about my efforts on categorization improvement of Commons, most appreciated! :) -- Cirt (talk) 15:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Centuries and milleniaEdit


Congratulations for the work on century categories! As you may have seen I have tried to participate in the clean-up. However I'd like to ask you not to postpone the renaming of the "per millenium" categories left on the CommonsDelinker talk page. I have carefully selected these categories, and I am waiting for them to be renamed before finishing the renaming and sorting work needed for consistency in the {{Architecture by millennium}} and {{Architecture by century}} hierarchies.

I have also corrected a number of navigation templates with links to renamed century categories, such as ships or sculptures in Italy. Can you think of a way to find all such templates with links in bad format? Place Clichy 14:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, much appreciated. I moved the milleniums although I would have preferred the complete clean-up of the "big nth-century" move first (around 8000 categories, hundreds of templates and a few thousands of references). I placed a request on COM:BR#Navigation_templates, but it encountered not a great enthusiasm (yet). Adding your questions to it might revive it. --Foroa (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, a look-up at all categories named "19th century..." and so on (I checked from the 1st to the 46th century, AC & BC), it seems that all grammatically incorrectly named categories have now been renamed. However, there are apparently about 1255 "by century" templates, many of them in need of link updating such as this one. Bot help would be a great idea! Are you able to build a flat list of all category names before the renaming? We may this way be able to look for all pages (probably mostly in the Category and Template namespaces) with links to any deleted page. I tried to create a {{Subject by century}} template, but then again placing it on top of all relevant categories might need a bit work. Place Clichy 11:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Great job. There are probably only around 260 by century templates. What list do you mean ? Many non-defined categories (or say their contents) have been moved prior to changing the templates, such as in Special:Categories/19th+century. The latter tool does not show empty nor redirected categories. You might start to change a few templates in each country; chances are that a local cat specialists starts to expand. --Foroa (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
And with great help of Special:Contributions/NeverDoING. --Foroa (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

On the organization of highlighted (FP/QI/VI) media in Commons main category structureEdit

Hi Foroa, You are one of Commons categorization experts. I therefore wanted to inform you, that I have started a discussion regarding some thoughts about getting a better integration and display of FP/QI/VIs in the main category structure at Commons:Village pump#Highlighted content in main category structure. Feel free to join the discussion if you feel like. Also feel free to invite others, if you think they have some interesting views on this. --Slaunger (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

SVG Flag map categoriesEdit

Can you please explain why you are undoing all the work I've just spent the last few days doing. The naming style of the categories matches all those of USA, Asia, Eurasia etc. I can't see why you are attempting to complicate it all with redirects. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I changed it to make it compliant with the Commons standard naming and by country organisation, and to harmonise it with the related parent categories as in Category:Maps incorporating flags by country. --Foroa (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Fuck that, it was already organise perfectly thank you. You come along, change it all and don't say a fucking word to me, the person who had spent days setting it all out. Now that is fucking ignorant you twat! --Fred the Oyster (talk)

Blocked Fred for 24 hours. You'll have to undo some recent contribs of his. Rd232 (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No real need, but thank you anyway. I will not drop death because of a couple of f** words. --Foroa (talk) 18:07, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Fred: Your valuable work is not wasted, only categories renamed and a structure added to fit the Commons naming. --Foroa (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I meant undoing his reversal of some of your changes. Rd232 (talk) 22:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Welsh churchesEdit

Hello - any particular reason why you deleted Category:Saint Cadoc churches in Wales in favour of Category:Cadoc churches in Wales when all the other sub-categories of Category:Churches in Wales by patron saint do use the "Saint X churches" format? Bencherlite (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

The main Category is Category:Cadoc an on enwiki en:Cadoc--NeverDoING (talk) 05:19, 19 January 2012 (UTC)}}
Well, I had my doubts why I delayed somewhat the move requests from [User:NeverDoING|NeverDoING]] and executed it to see if there was some reaction. On the one hand, categories should correspond with the name of the parent cat. On the other hand, all churches dedicated to a saint have the saint in their name. I would prefer other opinions, maybe a discussion on VP ? --Foroa (talk) 08:10, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
And as all the other subcategories of Category:Saints of Wales are in the form "Saint X", it's the Cadoc one that's out of line (and that was only created a couple of days ago, by - guess who? - NeverDoING!). Why should the enwiki naming convention for articles determine commons category names? There's no consistency there either e.g. Category:Saint Decuman and en:Decuman, so let's just go with the well-established "Saint X churches in Foo", please. And why were categories emptied and deleted without following the approach at Commons:Rename a category? It wasn't a trivial fix, it wasn't an unambiguous fix (which in any event gives seven days grace for someone to notice that {{category redirect}} has been put on the categories) and so a {{move}} request should have been posted for discussion. Or what about Commons:Categories for discussion? I am reversing this out of process move. Bencherlite (talk) 11:42, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Template:Quality imageEdit

I reverted your edit here as it was causing images to sort badly - any quality images sorted as QI in all their categories unless they had sortkeys. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No problem, this was a test (See Commons:Village_pump#Highlighted_content_in_main_category_structure) to insert a blank + QI as sortkey in an attempt to push QI/FP/VI images in front of the image lists in a category display. I was under the impression that it did not work. --Foroa (talk) 16:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Deleting categoriesEdit

for "incorr. name". Good evening! В Европе, конечно, гораздо за 3000 километров виднее, как называется по-английски в официальных документах Городского совета мой родной город Харьков. Где русский язык является официальным, кстати. А называется он Kharkov. Но дело не в этом. Зачем вандализировать ссылки со страниц Википедии, удаляя первоначальные категории? Они вам мешают? Ссылки с соответствующих страниц Википедий на Коммонз при удалении Вами базовых категорий становятся красными и ведут в никуда. For example: [1]. С уважением, --Vizu (talk) 09:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Category:Kharkiv is the agreed root name, if you like it or not, and subcategories must use the same name. There are thousands of cities where we have 2 or even 5 languages, so in Commons we have to stick to one. So all categories using Kharkov will be moved, including all categories that don't follow basic Commons name conventions, such as Category:Kharkov child. Don't complain about broken links if you don't even try to follow the Commons naming rules. Anyway, you will find always in the deletion summary the clickable category where it has been moved to. --Foroa (talk) 10:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The specific categories are better than general ones. This is why your behaviour is not constructive. Removing the specific categories you make the category tree much worse, and it may even look like vandalising. Please avoid this misconstructive practice.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 09:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

[This] is a fine sample of bad practice. I beg you not do not destroy the category tree removing the specific thematic categories.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 09:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

You know very well that categories should be in English and certainly not be in Cyrillic characters. If I want to avoid that people waste their time with things like Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/01/Category:Сретенская церковь в Переславле, I better merge and delete them. --Foroa (talk) 09:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
If you don't like the names in non-Empire language, you may rename them. Yet there is no rule at Commons to name the categories in only one language. You may find plenty of Italian and German categories.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 11:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
You know very well the rules and I wont waste my time to discuss this again. Wait and see. --Foroa (talk) 11:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
So you cannot show the rule about The Only Language. Here are the samples: Category:Les Enfants de Don Quichotte, Category:Bundesministerium für Bildung und Forschung, Category:Osservatorio geofisico di Lipari, Category:Wielkie dni małej floty, Category:Kishiwada Danjiri Matsuri. Why are you only against Russian names?--PereslavlFoto (talk) 12:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
See User_talk:Foroa/archive_2009 and read the commons rules. The further the language is from English the quicker we change the names. Not to mention other character sets. --Foroa (talk) 12:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
What Commons rules reject all the languages other than the British Empire language? Thanks.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 13:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

  Info A small discussion at Administrators noticeboard shows it's not convenient to delete the category with its mother categories and other additional info, moving the grouped images into some general category. It would be better to alert before deletion, and maybe the moving bot can be changed to make such an alert. If only I knew how to speak with the bot author, I would tell him this idea.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Какого спрашивается Вы лезете в чужой огород и удаляете категории и имена? Нам харьковчанам лучше известно как правильно называть наш город!!! / Why the hell you intervene into "foreign turf" and remove categories and names? We citizens of Kharkov better know what is the correct name for our city! Корольков Дмитрий Юрьевич (talk) 09:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Maybe discuss it first at the en:wikipedia if you would use Kharkov or Kharkiv. Once you agree there and between the Kharkov/Kharkiv Russsian/Ukraine people, we can implement it as you agree upon. --Foroa (talk) 09:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:John B. SnookEdit

The architect John B. Snook was known professionally by that name, and is referred to in every text I've every seen by that name. I have never seen him referred to as John Butler Snook. Please, stop changing the catageory, what you're doing is disruptive, and being an admin does not give you the right to do that. Leave it as I created it, please, and if you have objection, discuss them. Please do not revert again, especially as I am in the middle of working on this subject in conjuction with the article on en.Wiki. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

So, you went and changed everything back without discussion. That's real bush-league behavior. I expect more of admins. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
So did you when reverting the original that was there since months. On Commons, we avoid middle initials: this is mainly an Anglo-Saxon habit, mostly in titles, which is little followed in the non English world. Full middle names (or disambiguation) allows for better searches and avoids mixups with for example "John S. Snook" and John B. Snook. And yes, last 2 months, I moved more than 5000 categories, without discussion. --Foroa (talk) 12:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Practice on Commons should reflect reality, and not usurp reality. I created that cetagory, my friend. Not that that gives me ownership, but I do think it means you should accord me the courtesy of talking to me when I object to something you're doing to it, and not simply overwriting me without discussion.

BTW, your "Anglo-Saxon" habit objection is meaningless, given that Snook was born in England and moved to the US. It's how he presented himself, it's how he was known to his contemporaries, and it's how he's known to history Only on Commons will he be known as "John Butler Snooks", a name he didn't use. That's just wrong. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying that in the last two months you moved more than 5000 categories without discussion, and if someone comes back and reverts your move you reinstate the move without discussing it first? Even knowing full well that your undiscussed moves are only routine and uncontroversial if no one objects to them?'

If thata's the case, then you need to re-think what you're doing. Moving a bunch of categories without discussion is fine, if, in your judgement, they need to be moved to follow Commons policy, but if someone objects to the move you must discuss it!!'. I'm not going to make a big stink about it this time, but if you do that again and I'm aware of it, I will take it to the noticeboard.

I have no doubt that the maintenance work you're doing is, overall, helpful, but that does not release you from the obligation to discuss controversial edits, whether you're an admin or not. Please consider yourself on notice. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:34, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Look at my talk page: are there so many contested moves ?
  • I moved Category:John B. Snook in June last year and it stayed there till you moved it a couple of hours ago. The fact that I moved it back is a clear indication that I don't agree, so if you want to move it again, you have to issue a {{Move}} request or COM:CFD.
  • I did a quick check on telephone lists in the US and UK and I found over 200 living "John Snook" persons, 7 of them being "John B. Snook". I believe that on en:wiki, they reference 4 different John Snooks. So finally, the best name should be Category:John B. Snook (architect) although maybe not sufficient if his children became architects too. --Foroa (talk) 18:34, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

{{Bad name}}Edit

Thanks for your notes about this. The documentation for this template says it should only be used for files. Is the doc out of date? --Auntof6 (talk) 19:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it just works best for moved categories , at least I don't know which one would be better. A one click delete with auto summary containing links; far better than "empty". --Foroa (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Category:Portraits with neutral backgroundEdit

Dear Foroa, I wonder if you noticed that the Category:Portrait paintings with neutral background contains also portrait drawings with neutral background.--Thorvaldsson (talk) 08:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I fail to see the problem. --Foroa (talk) 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Dear Foroa, I would appreciate it if you could explain to me the reason, for which Category:Portraits with neutral background has been moved to Category:Portrait paintings with neutral background.--Thorvaldsson (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I just executed the request from User:NeverDoING and agreed since most of the items where concerning paintings and better matches its parent Category:Portrait paintings by background. I guess that Category:Portraits with neutral background will be recreated to contain pictures, drawings, ... --Foroa (talk) 07:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Printmakers from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830)Edit

Hello, I noticed you have been changing categories for 17th and 18th century artists to reflect a Belgium category. Belgium only existed after 1830 and there are categories set up for these artists to reflect the separation of the Netherlands into North and South, such as Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830). Please do not remove any of those categories, and please refrain from adding them all into a big Belgian container category, as most of these artists are known in the rest of the world as being Flemish. Thanks, Jane023 (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The reference framework for all categories is the actual political situation. In the first place, painters and artist have to be classified in the city/cities where they lived and consequently, in the the country where the city currently belongs to. That is the top level categories and has to serve the audience (the large majority) that don't know all the details of the history. We will not classify Dutch painters in German, Roman, Frenh, UK categories because it made part of those countries at some moment in time. I fully appreciate your work to get them in deeper, historically more accurate categories, but I cannot accept that one states that a painter from Bruges is not a painter from Belgium. If you continue to remove the top level categories, I just will bot move them all back. --Foroa (talk) 06:41, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Besides that, it is funny that you state "as most of these artists are known in the rest of the world as being Flemish" but that cannot be found in the category names. --Foroa (talk) 06:54, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I am sorry, I do not understand your answer. I am just the messenger! Please contact User talk:Vincent Steenberg about these categories and the vision behind them. Meanwhile, thanks for deleting Category:Draughtsmen from the Northern Netherlands (before 1815)!! Can you also delete these (they should all be emptied into the corresponding "(before 1830)" by now):

Thanks, Jane023 (talk) 12:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I added the (before 1830) back to Category:Jan Pauwel Gillemans (I), as I understand from Vincent Steenberg you approve double categories on these painters. Jane023 (talk) 14:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Great; this is not double categorisation: there is a main cat "painters from Belgium" and then all sorts of side specialisation cats which tend to be too difficult for most people, such as categories by era, by style, by technique, by material ... --Foroa (talk) 15:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Tasya van Ree picEdit

Hi, again. I came across this image, while editing, and wanted to make a cropped version showing only Tasya van Ree for her article, but noticed that copyright problem notice on that image's page, and didn't want to upload another version if the image would soon be deleted. The thing is, the deadline indicated by that notice came and went almost two months ago. Do you know what's going to happen to the image? Is it going to be deleted? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 03:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no idea. I shy away from license issues. --Foroa (talk) 06:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Do you know anyone who does have knowledge in that area that you can recommend? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 12:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Czech writers categoryEdit

Now, I can see you redirected category I have created. But I did that upon consensus. See this discussion: Category talk:Writers from the Czech Republic.--Juandev (talk) 07:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

1. A consensus between two persons is hardly a consensus. Moreover, the actual category contains 400+ items, so I would say that the consensus (and Commons standard) is Category:Writers from the Czech Republic
2. Commons syntax is "Writers from ...", not in the other order.
3. It is not realistic to expect that an average person can see a difference between "Czech writers" and "Writers from the Czech Republic"; just a recipe for continuous mixup.
4. Current reference framework is the actual political situation. Older historical areas might be in subcategories in that. Some of them will not be categorised as writers from Austria because the country was ruled by Austria at their time. --Foroa (talk) 14:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure, writers by country and writers by nationality (= by language, for many nations) are two very different criteria. Many Czechs live and lived outside Czech lands and many notable writers in Bohemia or Moravia (like Franz Kafka) were German-writing or, in mediaeval times, Latin-writing. Czech lands were multinational area during ages and affected by several waves of emigration. I'm not sure whether we need two categories and are able to maintain them, it is not simple to distinguish who is enough "Czech" and who is from where, but your redirect is not the best solution. --ŠJů (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Maybe not the best solution, but still better, as you state, than two categories that create confusion and mixups and next to impossible to maintain. Feel free to propose improvements. --Foroa (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Republika SrpskaEdit

Please, would you be able to consider whether categories of Republika Srpska should be unified to the form with article (Municipalities in the Republika Srpska) or without article (Churches in Republika Srpska‎)? --ŠJů (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I was a bit surprised but after looking into En:Republika Srpska and En:Constitution of Republika Srpska, along with other categories in Category:Republika Srpska, I would be inclined to drop the "the". A bit confusing as indeed, the "the" would have been required when the name would be "the Republic of Srbin". As Srpska/Srbin shows, each language has its own fuzzy rules and idiosyncrasies. ("the republic of" is a collection and needs the, En:Republika Srpska, Flanders, various towns that are called Republic/Replubica ... don't). --Foroa (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
"the Republic of Srbin" would be a nonsense (Srbin is a singular of the Serbian word for a member of the Serbian people), do you mean "the Republic of Serbs" or "the Republic of Serbia"? The exact translation of Republika Srpska is "(the) Serbian Republic" but the non-translated form is used to avoid confusion with Republic of Serbia which is a different country. Nevertheless, you are right that en:wikipedia can be relevant in this case. --ŠJů (talk) 00:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Churches in BelgiumEdit

Hello Foroa, please excuse my bad and ill-understand English (translated by google). I saw your recent changes and was a bit surprised. The categorie was full and I wanted to share it to churches to communes and provinces. The category "by location" I find it very problematic, since a church after hameau, village, municipality is categorized. Then there will soon be more categories than churches. Hystrix (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

See Category talk:Belgium and Category talk:Churches in Belgium. Belgium used to have close to 5000 villages, and it is not because they have been concentrated in 500 or so municipalities since 40 years that they no longer exist: each of them tend to retain a strong identity and most people don't know if they are a municipality or to what municipality they belong. Provinces are a subdivision that is slowly disappearing and little known by most people. We just want to have categories with the most simple (and flat) layout so that people don't need to know the complex Belgium organisation, why we systematically categorise by location. There are much more churches than villages, and none of the categories is "full". It is always easier to click to a following page than having to know details about province or municipality organisations. --Foroa (talk) 06:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Category "Europe History"Edit

Hello. Could you explain me why you deleted my category redirect? Thanks, greetings. Angelus(talk) 10:58, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

As you can read in User_talk:Foroa/archive_2011#Why_such_deletions_.3F, Commons:Category_redirects_suck and many sections in my archives, we have to be careful with category redirects. On most wikipedias, they are even forbidden or at least very much restricted. Europe History is typically a bad name that breaks all the naming rules and would not be used in no other language neither. --Foroa (talk) 11:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Old categories of towersEdit

Hi. I noticed, you deleted many categoires like "Radio towers..." and "Television towers..." However, this is a typical case that all old categories should be changed to soft redirects ({{seecat}}), not deleted. Firstly, the new names are relatively complicated - that's why the simple and intuitive old names should remain as redirects to the new ones. Secondly, many articles and categories of wikipedias link to the old categores here. We have no tool for automatic fixing them and that's why all old categories which are not mistaken but only replaced should be redirected, not deleted. Thank You. --ŠJů (talk) 14:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

That is your opinion, not mine. As you can read in User_talk:Foroa/archive_2011#Why_such_deletions_.3F, Commons:Category_redirects_suck and many sections in my archives, we have to be careful with category redirects. On most wikipedias, they are even forbidden or at least very much restricted. Edit summaries are clickable to their new destination category. Adding tripe redirects such as Category:Communication towers will not help very much neither.
It is much easier and efficient on the wikipedia sides to bot-check and update their outgoing commonscat than to provide and maintain millions of redirects; we are approaching 1.9 million categories and I moved around 8000 categories last 2 months.
The relation of the previous categories, such as radio towers and television towers is not necessarily one to one; some will land in communication towers and masts, some in communication towers. I think that radio and television tower categories will come back, or maybe as broadcasting towers.
The rename CFD has in my opinion been concluded and started to hastily. Because it was started manually, and would take a very long time, I have been hurrying to get the system in a consistent state. --Foroa (talk) 16:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Undiscussed Siebot move. Palestinian cultureEdit

Foroa. You moved categories via the Siebot bot without discussing the move first. See User talk:SieBot which points to User talk:Siebrand which points to the edit history of User:CommonsDelinker/commands. That edit history shows your initiation of the bot move. See this diff from there. It lists this:

{{Move cat|Palestinian culture|Culture of Palestine}}

See: Category talk:Palestinian culture for more info.

Also see: Commons:Administrators' noticeboard and the section titled something like "Undiscussed Siebot move initiated by Foroa. Category:Palestinian culture." --Timeshifter (talk) 20:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I've commented at AN. Foroa, could you please give some input there? I note that CommonsDelinker's instructions actually include the warning Please do not request name changes that you know may be controversial... A CFD would have been more appropriate, I think. Rd232 (talk) 03:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I just restored the situation as it was before Timeshifter initiated a move (and completed by Orrling) without any form of discussion. --Foroa (talk) 06:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Replied at AN. (But I note that your comment here is contradicted by your comment at AN, where you said the move of content was done by Orrling, after Timeshifter created an additional category.) Rd232 (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, completion above. --Foroa (talk) 15:16, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, Ik kan je verzekeren dat de foto waaraan je net hebt gewerkt het Sint-Katelijneplein niet voorstelt, maar wel de Brandhoutkaai aan de rechterkant en de Baksteenkaai aan de linkerkant, met de Anspachfontein op de achtergrond, en dus niet thuishoort in de categorie Place Sainte-Catherine. Het plein bevindt zich achter dit beeld aan beide kanten van de kerk. Ik suggereer dat je dit even nakijkt op een plan van Brussel. Het zou nog beter zijn, moest de misleidende titel van het beeld gewijzigd kunnen zijn. Groeten, Michel wal (talk) 17:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Dank je wel Michel, nu zou File:Quai au Bois à Brûler et quai aux Briques, Bruxelles.jpg op zijn plaats moeten zitten. We hebben een achterstand van honderduizenden beelden, zo dat we er soms weleens compleet naast kunnen slaan. Alvast bedankt voor je goede bijdragen en werk. --Foroa (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Category:Trim & Category:Trim, County MeathEdit

Hallo - een vraagje hoe het beste bovenstaande twee categorieën samen te voegen. Voor zover ik kan zien is er maar een plaats die zo heet en de andere opties die genoemd staan op en:Trim lijken niet zo van toepassing op Commons. Desalniettemin is "Trim, County Meath" natuurlijk niet verkeerd. Mij maakt het niet uit. Groeten, Deadstar (talk) 15:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Misschien is er nu geen conflict maar met een 4-letter woord gaat het zeker nog komen. En vermits er toch een merge diende te gebeuren, beter in de veilige richting (en in line met en:wiki). --Foroa (talk) 15:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Bedankt! Groeten, -- Deadstar (msg) 16:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Blacksmith's toolsEdit

I weighed in at

Good faith contributors routinely decide that some category has a stupid name, so they create a parallel category, depopulate the old category, while populating the new category. This would not be a problem if all these new names were well advised. However, they are not all well advised.

Unfortunately the original, better categories get deleted, simply because they are empty. It is unfortunate that we rely on categories so heavily, when they don't preserve a record of when elements were added or subtracted to them. Maybe in some future version of the WMF software.

Meanwhile, could you please restore Category:Blacksmithing tools? Geo Swan (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

  Done I am facing this problem every day; one can only see what has been manually moved to a new category (downloads with that category and bot moves are not seen), so I have often to search in user contributions. In this case however, Category:Blacksmithing tools has been created well after the original Category:Blacksmith's tools while blacksmithing is a more difficult term. --Foroa (talk) 06:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Foroa, you are not a native English speaker, and that is why you make so many mistakes. Blacksmithing is not a more difficult term. Geo Swan is correct in his reasoning here in saying that "Blacksmithing tools" is the better category name. Geo Swan, you can add a {{Move}} tag to the "Blacksmith's tools" category. If more people agree with you than disagree with you, then the category will be changed. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
No need to spread the discussion here or being condescending. I just concluded a merge from an empty newer category into an older. Just use standard procedures when you disagree. --Foroa (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't condescending. I stated a fact about English. Your calling it condescending shows one cause for some of your problems on the Commons. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Copyright questionEdit

Hello, I see you are admin here. Could please help me regarding the copyright status of this image? The source URL, as specified in the image, is a dead link now and the Flickr user, the author of the image, closed his account. So what to do with the image, is it a candidate for deletion? --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 07:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Asked the question in Commons:Help desk --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 08:10, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Great, I shy away of such discussions. --Foroa (talk) 08:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for creating Category:Freedom of speechEdit

Thank you for creating Category:Freedom of speech. You may be interested in Commons:Village_pump#Category:Freedom_of_speech_-_Crosswiki_Sister_Link_project_coordination. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Deleting broken redirects on User pagesEdit

Hi Foroa, You deleted the protected redirects I left at User:Ry0ukai and User:Kai.nissen after user renames. I realize they were redirects to empty pages (because the user does not yet have a userpage), but I think they were serving some important purposes. For one, it allows users who need to find them to track them down. Secondly, it prevents new accounts being created with the old username. What do you think? Is there any reason other than "cleanliness" to always delete them? --99of9 (talk) 08:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I delete many broken redirects every day, so I cannot build up a list of "tolerated" broken redirects. A redirect to a non existing page makes no sense anyway, and as far as I can see, those previous account seems not registered. So, if you want to maintain that, you can create a (empty) user page. And it is not because a user page has been deleted that one can create a new account "over" it. It looks as if user:Kai.nissen never made contributions here. --Foroa (talk) 08:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, it does make sense, just like a redlink in a signature makes sense. The user's old contributions are still signed with their old username, so will go there first. And it would be better if they were redirected straight through to the new userpage (even if it is still red... though one day it may not be). The redirect is exactly what helps you to know where this "unregistered" user has gone! For example, you can now find Kai.nissen's contributions here (and could find that if you followed the redirect I left you :-)). Regarding new account creation, as far as I know, there are two things that could stop it - a registered account, or a user/talk page. When we move accounts, the registered account is gone, so the only thing that can stop it is a user page.
However, all that being said... I accept that for your convenience deleting other redirects, it would be better for these not to confuse you. I will create a soft redirect instead, and will protect it. The protection is my message to others to think twice before deleting it. --99of9 (talk) 09:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I did not know about the "releasing" of the account when there is no user/talk page. Personally, I would have created a blank user page, but your solution is neat too. --Foroa (talk) 11:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


Hi Foroa, You have redirected Category:Amol to Category:Amol (city) that I think is incorrect. Let me explain by an example. In Persian "Tehran" is the name of a city, a county, and a province. When we say "Tehran", we mean "Tehran city". In order to refer to Tehran as a county or a province, we use "Tehran county" and "Tehran province" respectively. Likewise, Category:Amol needs no disambiguation because it solely refers to w:Amol as a city. Take a look at w:Tehran, w:Tehran County, and w:Tehran Province on the English Wikipedia. Thanks. AMERICOPHILE 10:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

  Comment - Note that there are other topics with the same exact name, listed at w:AMOL, apparently previously listed at w:Amol (disambiguation). -- Cirt (talk) 10:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Some comments.
  • We are Commons, not wikipedia.
  • Categories are not articles; we have to be much more organised with naming as many bots participate in categorisation. We cannot take assumptions in the sense "When we say "Tehran"", we mean "Tehran city" (we make exceptions for capitals for historical reasons). We absolutely need to be more explicit.
  • Categories are not articles; if you navigate in the wrong article, you take another. People tend to drop their images in the first category that sound right without really checking. We have 2 to 3 times more categories than on wikipedia.
  • As stated by Cirt, there are many w:Amol (disambiguation), not to mention the Amol restaurants, hotels, products, companies, first names ... (google "Amol -Iran" returns 11 million results) . As Amol is a 4 character word, I can assure you that villages with the same name will pop-up; don't forget that all Greec, Arabic, Chinese, Indian, Russian ... names have to be transliterated in English.
  • many cities, such as Utrecht, Wakefield , Groningen, Toledo, ... started with similar assumptions as yours: in the end they had to add disambiguitian terms because of the mess it created and that involved a lot of work. So the sooner you do that, the less you have mistakes, work and troubles. --Foroa (talk) 13:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
OK, I just wanted to make sure that you know what you are doing. Thanks again. AMERICOPHILE 14:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Category:Museum De LakenhalEdit

Hi Foroa, Before you do any major changes to this category, I would like to point out that this museum recently changed it's name from "Stedelijk Museum De Lakenhal" to simply "Museum De Lakenhal". So it would make more sense to change the title of the en.wikipedia than to rename this category here on commons. Regard, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You tend to align the names to the en:wikipedia, so I checked the en:wikipedia and aligned it. For the moment I reverted it but we'll need to disambiguate that sooner or later because there are several Lakenhal(len) museums. --Foroa (talk) 18:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
ok, thanks for the quick intervention. In the meantime I changed the article. I don't know of any other Lakenhal which calls itself a museum, but we'll see. Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 20:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Backlighted vs Contre-JourEdit

Since you are not a native speaker of English and therefore apparently a neutral observer, could you consider that the term "Contre-jour" is completely unknown in the USA -- I have been a photographer for fifty+ years, have read most of the trade journals from time to time, and never seen it used. It does not appear in American dictionaries.

I note also that the instruction manuals for my several Nikon cameras all use "Back Light" and do not mention "Contre Jour". I suspect that the same is true for the other major manufacturers.

I don't want to get into an edit war with anyone, but I think that "Contre Jour" is a poor choice for the category. Regards,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but those are technical terms used by people that are really deeply involved with photography. Backlighting is an overall technique covering a large range of use.
  • En:Contre jour, for which there seems to be no translation (as often in specialist jargon such as Category:Bokeh that is probably not in your dictionary neither, I am not native french but use the term for 30+ years, I was surprised not to find an English term) means 'against daylight', uses one single light source and has a very stark contrast and creates mainly silhouettes.
  • When the back/front light ratio decreases or the light is more coming from the side, then we often talk about low-key lighting (remember clair-obscure). There often, several lights are (discretely) used.
  • When we want to accent for example hair, shoulders, ... then selective/directed backlight is used; it is sometimes called hair or shoulder light. This is a more subtle technique applied to parts of the pictures, and I don't think we have a category for it (I would not know what name to use neither).
So backlighting is a global term and indeed often used in popular science publications and grand public publications to group the three (or more) different ways of using back light(s). Maybe we should use some global back lighting cat, but I am afraid that this will be controversial as some people will not accept that low-key is always back light. So anyway, contre-jour equals not back light. --Foroa (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps you should take a look at the depth of my photographic experience at User:Jameslwoodward -- as I said above, I have been a photographer, professional and for the love of it, for more than fifty years. I have read and still occasionally do read various serious photographic journals and references. I have never before seen the term "contre-jour", even for the very specific use you mention above.
In this country any photograph taken toward the light source, whether natural or artificial is "backlit" or, less frequently, "backlighted". As I noted, that is also the term used by Nikon in its manuals, which appear to be mostly written by Japanese who speak English. It is also used exclusively in other standard references here. My five volumes of Ansel Adams Photo Series (The Camera, The Negative, The Print, Natural Light Photography, and Artificial Light Photography) are packed away, but I would be prepared to wager that Adams does not use "contre jour".
As you note, the term "backlight" is also used for a light behind the subject, usually in portrait photography, that is used to highlight the hair.
With all that said, I don't have the time to get into a serious debate over it. Just please be aware that "contre jour" will be meaningless to any American reader, even very sophisticated ones.     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 23:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Jameslwoodward, apologies for bumping into this conversation, but is this what you are talking about? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 11:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
No problem -- everybody is welcome. No, what I am saying is that Contre-jour is a meaningless article title for American photographers. I would title the article "Backlighting (photography)" or something similar, and the same thing with Commons cats.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 12:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
We can put contre-jour photography under backlight(ing) photography--Pierpao.lo (listening) 12:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


hello :) why (about this edit the categories: Category:Tyrrhenian Sea, Category:Coasts of the Mediterranean Sea in Italy and Category:Coasts of Sardinia are no right for the image? thank you--Pava (talk) 06:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe that the Category:Coasts of Sardinia could apply, but the rest is overcategorisation; commons is not a tagging system. See COM:OVERCAT. --Foroa (talk) 06:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
sorry can you explain why you respond in your discussion page and not in mine? thank you--Pava (talk) 07:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
See the top of my talk page; this is followed by most people on Commons. Keeping discussions on one single place makes it easier to follow them, especially for other people. Moreover, one can refer to specific statements above the new texts, which is next to impossible when the discussion is on several places. --Foroa (talk) 07:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, but i no receve notifications :( oh well is not that important. I would like to request your help, i have difficulty to explain and understand a user, on these actions: [please look here and this talk (talk for user) and my talk. This user consider my actions "vandalism" but i don't understand something or if I'm wrong or he teases me. He asked me to read this, however I can not find the part that believes his version right and my wrong. Can you help me please?--Pava (talk) 07:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
First, most people put automatically pages that they edit (including talk pages) in the tab "user preferences - watchlist" on their watchlist. So when looking in their watchlist, they see immediatly what has been changed in their region of interest.
COM:OVERCAT, referred to by User:FAEP, refers mainly to the fact that one should categorise as "deep" as possible, meaning adding "category:snow" makes no sense when an image is in "category:snow in Italy".
Concerning File:Ochre Porsche 997 GT3 3.8 in front of the Lamborghini São Paulo dealership.jpg, only the category "Buildings in São Paulo City" is debatable, so is the contents of castles, museums and art galleries too. It is a problem of the chicken and the egg. The picture shows the content of a building in Sao Paulo, and some day, somebody will create a category concerning that particular building and then this picture will "belong" to it. So, lets say that so far, that category is used to indicate that it is from Sao Paulo.
You did right with File:- ITALY La Maddalena (Sardegna) Fiat 500 sulla costa.JPG, but if La Maddalena would have been categorised as Coasts of Sardinia, then it would have been overcat. Problem is when images contain obviously too many overcats, the important ones are easily cleaned away with the others. I hope this helps. --Foroa (talk) 08:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
yes, thank you :)--Pava (talk) 08:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:AlbanyNY and Category:Albany, New York CollectionEdit

re your comment - did you not see the "on hold" message? Would you consider removing it and commenting in the RFC instead (and coming back to the DR later)? Or could you at least comment in the RFC and explain a bit more - where your question might also get an answer? Thanks. Rd232 (talk) 11:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed the RFC, but decided to read the several pages of text and respond on it later more extensively. I was shocked by yet another template generated category that was badly named and cannot be moved nor renamed by bots. --Foroa (talk) 11:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
OK. Please do comment later (and note especially my point that the approach does not seem to be disallowed by policy, so if we really don't want this, we should clarify it in writing somewhere). cheers, Rd232 (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


You've probably thought about proper categorization more than anyone else. What do you think of the discussion at Category talk:Home Life Insurance Company Building? Am I missing something here? --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maison JonathasEdit

Cher Foroa,

Tu viens de changer la catégorie relative à la maison Jonathas d'Enghien en indiquant Jontahas. Or le site officiel du musée repris sous le lien suivant: indique bien Jonathas. Peux-tu aller y jeter un coup d'oeil.

Merci d'avance pour ta bonne collaboration.

Jean-Pol GRANDMONT (talk) 14:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Merci Jean-Pol, j'avais mergé deux catégories dans une, trop vite apparemment. Merci de ta vigilance. --Foroa (talk) 14:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Category:Images of Cuyahoga County, OhioEdit

Please, undelete this category. It may looks like it is useless but it is useful during moving images from enwiki (en:Category:Images of Cuyahoga County, Ohio) Bulwersator (talk) 11:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

There are hundreds or thousands of such categories. I do not plan to maintain two parallel category trees. --Foroa (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

QI categoriesEdit

Perhaps you would be interested as well: Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Martin_H.. - A.Savin 13:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

CFD on cat:Pictures_and_images and similarEdit

As someone who has recently edited Category:Pictures and images, please see the (non-) discussion (not) going on at Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/02#Category:Pictures and images (and the 9 nominations following that one), if you haven't already, and comment there if you wish. Thanks. - dcljr (talk) 01:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


Hey Foroa,

I haven't spent nearly as much time on the commons as I have Wikipedia, but I see that you recently deleted a category that I created. Many people searching for media relating to Southern Illinois University Edwardsville will simply type in "SIUE". I know of nothing in any other language that SIUE is commonly used to represent, so this shouldn't be a problem. If this category is against policy, I understand why you deleted it, but I'd like an explanation as to what is wrong with it. I usually try to add those types of things in edit summaries. Illinois2011 (talk) 07:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I deleted it because it was a redundant parallel category that was uncategorised. I made Category:SIUE a redirect that can stay as long as there are not too many conflicts, which will not be for long when looking at this. Categories are not articles and redirects are much more of a problem (Try to create en:Category:SIUE and you will see) --Foroa (talk) 07:32, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Category:Ancient Roman bridges by countryEdit

The bridges in the cat feature two different ways of disambiguating, some by brackets (eg. Römerbrücke (Mainz)‎), others by comma (eg. Roman bridge, Trier‎). Do we need to implement a consistent naming standard? What is the correct system? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Long time ago, we tried to uniformise disambiguation with a comma. We failed miserably. But we try at least to maintain de same style in the same region. So, I would change "Roman bridge, Trier"‎ to "Roman bridge (Trier)‎". Sooner or later, I will pass by to harmonise the generic names "Roman bridge" as it makes no sense to have that in 14 languages and all the possible lower/uppercase combinations. --Foroa (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:Bad nameEdit

Do we still need this? We have now "duplicate" and "rename". -- RE rillke questions? 13:57, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, very much used but get self-deleted all the time; so it works. As far as I know, the only speedy deletion template for categories that tells where the right/new category is.
Should refuse to work when category is not empty. --Foroa (talk) 14:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
“This template should only be used for files. For categories see Commons:Categories for discussion.”
Could you update the documentation, please? Thanks in advance. -- RE rillke questions? 14:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Did it. You are more experienced in this area. Could you check and correct, please. Thanks in advance. -- RE rillke questions? 13:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Looks alright, but when trying, it seems to use the text from {{Bad name/en}}. --Foroa (talk) 14:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Category:Rye HouseEdit

Please note:

  1. "Rye House" is a common name, and exists in other counties, for example Yorkshire and Sussex;
  2. "Rye House" refers to a part of Hoddesdon, and also to a historic place (w:Rye House, Hertfordshire).

I don't understand the present situation with the Rye House categories, but there has been some confusion introduced by your edits. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As can be seen in en:Rye House, there are many places (end even real Rye Houses and farms that will pop up here sooner or later), so it needed disambiguation. As it is structured now, all subcategories of Rye House belong to Hertfortshire. Once it is moved, I will make it a disambiguation category. Members of a disambiguation category should not be categorised in the disambiguation category that must remain empty. (See Category:Non-empty disambiguation categories). --Foroa (talk) 12:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have now created Category:Rye House (district of Hoddesdon) and I think it fixes the immediate problems. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, didn't know there was a district too; that makes a neat bundled solution. That is a typical problem with the geograph images: they need much deeper categorisation, which is not easy to find, certainly not on the en:wikipedia. --Foroa (talk) 14:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Protected Basque categoryEdit

Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Category:Enclave_of_Trevi.C3.B1o relates to your protection. Maybe you can explain it (or document at the category, or remove the protection) - there's no obvious reason or clear explanation that I can see. Thanks. Rd232 (talk) 01:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I tried to moderate in three long major nationalistic/language edit wars: Category talk:Basque Country including the much contested Category:Enclave of Treviño, Land of Valencia and South Tyrol/Trentino (Italian vs German). They all settled down, partly because of the protection, but from time to time, there is still some problem, such as recently in Category:Navarre. I tend to remove the protection when there is an edit request. Note that if a nationalist comes along, such as Patricia Rios, in very little time they can completely ruin the structure; they are very clever by adding bit by bit new parallel structures before suddenly switching to the new categories. Such things are difficult to repair. Spain, with its five official languages, created most problems, as you can equally see on the hundreds of renames that have bee done on the en:wikipedia. --Foroa (talk) 06:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
OK, thanks.↔↔↔↔↔ Category talk:Basque Country/Category scheme Basque Country (linked from Category talk:Enclave of Treviño) is a draft and on a talk page, which is a bit odd. Category talk:Basque Country is linked from there but I hadn't looked at it before :) and that clarifies the background. Maybe Category talk:Basque Country/Category scheme Basque Country could become a proper category scheme? eg Commons:Category scheme Italy is also a draft, but a bit more convincing. Rd232 (talk) 18:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
A bit small to make it an official scheme, but why not. Anyway, all those schemes are used to get a discussion and agreement going. Once the categories start growing again, they expand and change faster then one can maintain those things. It would be useful to have a tool that can make a snapshot of the most important categories of a certain topic. Those graph things are not really readable. --Foroa (talk) 18:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"a snapshot of the most important categories of a certain topic" - that sounds interesting. How would you define "important"? Top level + the next 1, 2 or 3 levels down? A bot should be able to do that pretty easily. Rd232 (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to think of it, but I have already a basic idea, that satisfies another need, namely category coherence checking. Because for example, in France one categorize rivers at 3 different levels and in n regions and departments, so next to impossible to check on coherency without going through them all one by one. So I would need a structure that contains the indented cats (according to its level), followed by the categories in which is equally categorised.

Obviously, it would be nice to define the category depth, have an option to have them displayed as tree or flat and sorted. Sorted parent categories would be nice too. --Foroa (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Well when you're ready, maybe it's worth posting at Commons:Bots/Work requests, in the hope that someone might pick it up. We could also try approaching some of the authors of related category tools and bots directly. Alternatively, there is mw:Extension:CategoryTree and its Special:CategoryTree and categorytree tag. I'm wondering whether that could be used or adapted. Rd232 (talk) 22:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Umbenennen und Löschen von Kategorien (Category:Walterswil BE in Category:Walterswil, Bern)Edit

Wenn Du Kategorien umbenennst (wobei der ofizielle Namen der Gemeinde ja Walterswil BE lautet), dann sollstest Du aber diese Änderung in allen Artikeln (Commonscat-Schablonen, in den Artikeln, die das Thema behandeln) anbringen, welche auf diese Kategorie verweisen. Im vorliegenden Fall ist diese Umbenennung allerdingst nicht wirklich nachvollziehbar. Mit herzlichen Grüssen DidiWeidmann (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Leider sehen wir hier nicht, wenn die Kategorien verlinkt sind. Das ist ein großen Problem. -- RE rillke questions? 19:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
You should know by now that we don't accept abbreviations in the category names and in case of doubt, we tend to align to en:Walterswil, Bern. So if you follow that rule in the first place, changing links should only be necessary in very exceptional cases. And yes, if external wikis want to keep their links up to date, das ist ein kleinen Problem; for them it is dead easy to run every know and then a bot that checks all IW links: that should be done one the calling side, not the receiving side. Or better, link Commons via a gallery: they can be redirected easily with links that work. Best. --Foroa (talk) 21:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Massimiliano GalardiEdit

Hello Foroa, btw of this, the user is not very fluent in languages different from Italian. I am trying to explain him that he's doing a mess with pages and categories, he's slowly learning that Commons is not a personal repository of photos but a tool for sharing them under free licence :-) -- Blackcat (talk) 10:12, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Blackcat, it is indeed not easy to explain. As you can see here and Category:Galleries in the Province of Prato, he has been very original in creating categories around his Prato town. Histories like this are really a waste of time. Your help is appreciated. --Foroa (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
he he apart from that he doesn't seem to understand well how commons work. I blocked him for one day and told him to write me in private, so i am sure to have got his attention. -- Blackcat (talk) 15:34, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Sometimes, indeed, we have to force users to think, explore and read a bit. In the mean time, it might be a good idea to categorise the items in Russia, more specifically the ones of Saint Petersburg before he creates categories in his original style. One of the specialists of Saint Petersburg is user:Kaganer. --Foroa (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Category moves and deletionsEdit

Hi Foroa.

  • When making some controversial or mass moves or deletions, please don't forget to link in the summary the discussion where a consensus on such action was achieved or where such action was proposed and discussed previously.
  • I please again and again: respect rules Should the old category be deleted? If the old category is a simple typo or you are the only person who ever used the category and you are the one fixing it up, it can safely be deleted. In other cases, the old category mostly should be redirected. --ŠJů (talk) 05:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
1. I did not initiate the protest move ([( see here, I warned the administrator]), which in my eyes was premature without consensus.
2. We know that we completely disagree about structural category redirection. To me this creates bad training, causes people to create more and more such wrong categories, and pollute and in some cases saturate tools like cat-a-lot and auto-search/fill. I create and repair many redirects, probably more than you, but only when I feel that they are essential.
3. The last 3 months, I moved more than 8000 categories; needless to say that I don't need more work.
4. Less than 0,5 % of the categories that I moved and deleted, are recreated as a redirect, which shows that my approach is the most efficient.
5. When I move a category because it needs disambiguation, I certainly don't create a redirect. When I have time, I create disambiguation categories. I keep deleting redirects that should be a disambiguation page. --Foroa (talk) 06:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Ad 1) I agree with you. I have not any definite opinion whether the merge is a good idea. It's true that the two category trees are very related but I think, march or crowd protests are a bit different from protest texts, paintings, sculptures, boards etc. That's why such mass merges shouln't be made without thoroughgoing previous discussion. However, your edit summary should be more clear when the case can be controversial.
Ad 2) I'm sure, you should not delete anything without clear consensus. You should respect current principles, not enforce your own preferences without consensus. Redirects create good training because they send user to the right categories and help to find them. There were manytimes described also other reasons why all useful redirects should be kept. Wrong (confusing, misspelled) categories, i. e. categories with incorrect and confusing names, should be really deleted. However, you repeatedly deleted category names which are not really "wrong" but only old.
Ad 3) Also (and especially) very active users should respect rules and consensus of the project and should be careful not to make damage by his actions.
Ad 4) You are proving that is very difficult to rectify such damages and most of such damages remain.
Ad 5) I don't understand your explanation. Things are simple: if the redirected category is one, the redirecting page works as a redirect. If there are more redirected categories, the redirecting page is a disambiguation page. None of these cases give a reason to delete the old category. --ŠJů (talk) 07:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I will no longer respond on things you even don't want to read or understand. And again, I did not initiate the protest move on which I don't really agree. --Foroa (talk) 07:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I think, I read your answer and your summaries and I reacted to them. --ŠJů (talk) 07:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


Hi. What should mean this and this edit and some others? Before your edits, the images were correctly described and categorized, the parent categories as well. Do you disagree with the standard modular principle of categorization, or do you make this over-categorization in some sudden inattention? --ŠJů (talk) 06:58, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Those additions have been made after a user created a uncategorised Category:Dubi. So when such items appear, the first thing I do is checking if there is no risk of naming collision, and while at it, I add some images that appear to belong to the category. I am pretty sure that the second Dubi or related categories did not pop up in the search results (search "not in category" is not always predictable or repeatable, especially when it concerns a fairly recent category). It is only later that I discovered to my surprise that it was redundant to Category:Dubí, so I redirected it; a really useful redirect. Frankly, initially, I did not notice any difference between Dubi and Dubi. I should maybe have undone some of the categorisation to the first and I should not use the "not in cat" search for new categories. There are however a millions of things here that I should, and the more one does, the more things should ... --Foroa (talk) 07:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I think, it needn't to be such suprprise. When anyone try to identify the town and verify its name, he must to discover that the real name is Dubí and that the town had its own category already. Also when anyone check parent categories of the categories where the images were categorized, he can not to miss the existing category. I understand that an unexperienced user can create such dupe category. But I think, it is necessary a big negligence and rashness to accept and fill such misspelled and duplicate category. Yes, everyone can make a mistake. We should learn our lesson from our mistakes. I believe you for next time, you will try to look around before such edits. --ŠJů (talk) 07:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Militaire begraafplaatsenEdit

Hi Foroa,

ik heb even vlug dit [2] teruggedraaid om voorlopig brokken te voorkomen. Maar, eer je je op je tegen getrapt voelt: wel klopt het dat er in de categorieën van de verschillende landen wat verschillende manieren van benoemen zijn, maar je had de verkeerde categorie geredirect ;-) En we moeten misschien eens ons werk er van maken. M.b.t. deze Belgische begraafplaatsen:

  • Belgian military cemeteries = Belgische militaire begraafplaatsen = onderhouden door de Belgische defensie, met Belgische oorlogsgraven = Belgische gesneuvelden. De mééste bevinden zich weliswaar in België, vandaar misschien de verwarring. Maar ook in NL bijvoorbeeld, en dat is niet "in Belgium".
  • Military cemeteries in Belgium = militaire begraafplaatsen in België = de vele Britse en de Duitse en Franse en Amerikaanse begraafplaatsen, en ook de meeste uit het puntje hierboven.

Twee sterk onderscheiden dingen dus ;-) De verwarring tref je misschien minder aan bij de Britse begraafplaatsen: deze worden door de CWGC onderhouden, dus is er minder verwarring met de naam "Brits". ('t zijn trouwens ook o.m. Australiërs, Canadezen en Nieuw-Zeelanders die er liggen).


Vergelijk met het taalgebruik in de omgangstaal:

  • een "Engels oorlogskerkhof" is voor ons geen oorlogskerkhof in Engeland, maar bv. een "Engels oorlogskerkhof in de Westhoek" = een begraafplaats met (in de volksmond 'Engelsen'), in werkelijk slachtoffers uit het vroeger Britse Rijk.
  • een "oorlogsbegraafplaats in Engeland" ligt dan wel geografisch in Engeland.

MAAR: er is op commons wel wat dubbelzinnigheid en misschien slordigheid in de categorieën.

  • zo hebben wel al sinds jaar en dag Category:Military memorials and cemeteries in Belgium waar oorlogsbegraafplaatsen én -monumenten onder vallen (soms is er ook een sterke overlap, want sommige monumenten dienen voor gesneuvelden zonder graf, of dienen als graf, of het komt op 1 terrein voor).
  • bovendien is er ook een categorieboom met category:War cemeteries. Vooral deze laatste boom snap ik niet goed: is m.i. hetzelfde als het betere 'military cemeteries' ?
  • en er bestaat die boom met category:Military cemeteries

Ik zou je redirect bv. wél op Category:Military memorials and cemeteries in Belgium kunnen plaatsen, en dan verdelen we die netjes over Category:Military cemeteries in Belgium (dus een hele hoop Britse + Duitse + Franse + Amerikaanse begraafplaatsen) en een categorie met oorlogsmonumenten ? (sommige foto's en subcats. in beide) ??? Maar die Category:Military memorials and cemeteries ... bestaat ook voor enkele andere landen, dus daar zou het dan ook netjes moeten aangepakt worden -- op voorwaarde dat iemand daar geen bezwaren tegen heeft omdat er een weloverwogen beslissing achter zit ?? Lijkt je dat een idee? Anders wil ik hier wel mee helpen wat indelen en klasseren ;-)

Conclusie: er kan 't een en 't anders wat gestroomlijnd worden op commons, je had enkel de verkeerde specifieke categorie laten redirecten ;-) en ik wil gerust een handje toesteken --LimoWreck (talk) 12:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Dag Limo, blij nog eens van je te horen. Sorry, ik ben inderdaad wat kort door de bocht gegaan. Het ziet er goed uit en ik kijk het in de loop van de week eens rustig na. --Foroa (talk) 14:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Dag LimoWreck, het zou nu ongeveer moeten accepteerbaar zijn, maar er steekt daar iemand zijn neus in voor het ogenblik. Misschien even de werken van onze wereldverbeteraar laten afkoelen. --Foroa (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

A questionEdit

Greetings. You recently deleted a category for an unincoporated community in Humboldt County, California named "Korbel, California."

Please tell me what I did wrong with creating the category? I went today to upload more photos from that trip, besides the two I had uploaded previously, only to find the category gone. I have other unincorporated communities in California that I'm working on and none of their categories has been deleted before.

I didn't see any reason for deletion that made sense, so I am sorry, but I have to bother you to ask why it was removed.

I am not in the slightest angry, merely confused and seeing information how to do this better so pages do not get deleted without warning. Thank you. Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

As you can see in en:Korbel, California , there is Category:Korbel, Humboldt County, California and Category:Korbel, Sonoma County, California. I moved your pictures in the right category before deleting the confusing one that could be possibly created as a disambiguation category. --Foroa (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

What happened to File:Aurelia Bradeanu 15.jpg ?Edit

Hello, Foroa. I see that you have deleted File:Aurelia Bradeanu 15.jpg, with the reason "File page with no file uploaded", but the logs show that there were uploaded two versions of this file (one by Flickr upload bot and one by Cropbot, both operated by me). Can you check if the uploaded files still appear in the history and restore them if possible? If it's not possible, I will upload them again. Thanks, Razvan Socol (talk) 06:21, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Must have been a bug/error in Commons:Database reports/File description pages without an associated file. Restored by now. --Foroa (talk) 06:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

David Bowie tour categoriesEdit

Why do you keep deleting the redirects from the alternate tour names to the correct names? They are alternate names that someone may search for, but by deleting the redirects, they now cannot be found. Commons:Rename a category#Should the old category be deleted? states that a redirect should be used if it is "likely that a new user might ever try to use this category by accident". Please restore the redirects you have deleted. Namely, Category:Stage Tour, Category:Soul Tour and Category:Young Americans Tour. --JD554 (talk) 19:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

First: Commons:Category redirects suck. Categories are not articles. Try to do the same category redirects on en:Wikipedia, and you will see how long they will stay. You can use any redirect from gallery name space to category name space you want, and at least, those redirects work.
As can be seen in COM:CAT, The category name would be enough to guess the subject, which is the primary naming rule and is not the case for Category:Stage Tour and Category:Soul Tour; there are tens or hundreds of them, not to mention the ones in Russian, Arab, Chinese, Greek, ... that will translate to the same term. There are many en:Young Americans.
Those categories have not been renamed, you just tried to create a number of redirects that are far too ambiguous. We are approaching 2 million categories. If every user attempted to create a number of redirects in the 280 languages we support, the whole system would collapse and tools like hotcat would become unusable. Maintaining redirects is a time consuming task as we move 1000 to 2000 categories per months, without any bot tools to maintain the redirects. --Foroa (talk) 07:11, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
They would last quite well on Wikipedia. However, this is Commons and the rules are not necessarily the same. The page you directed me to is only a proposed guideline and looking at the talk page, it doesn't look like it is close to being ready. In the meantime Commons:Rename a category is currently part of commons' help and therefore is part of what we should be doing until such time as it may change. Having said that, Commons:Only use category redirects where necessary backs up my argument by saying "where necessary". As these were tour names were commonly used in English speaking countries (where the tours took place), it is not unreasonable to expect them to be probable search terms. You say there are many Young Americans. However, you will note there was only one Young Americans Tour. --JD554 (talk) 08:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
On en:wiki, there are only 15000 category redirects, and I am pretty sure that your category directs would be eliminated very quickly. On many wikipedias, redirected categories are forbidden or only for really exceptional cases. While we are on it, I am pretty sure that even article redirects on en:wikipedia such as Stage Tour and Soul Tour would be quickly eliminated or converted to disambiguation pages as it would be misleading indeed. So one cannot state that a misleading redirect can be considered as "where necessary". --Foroa (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of page Commons Featured pictures of UserEdit

Hi, I just found out you deleted (without warning me), my page of featured pictures on Commons and incorrectly merged it with my featured pictures of Wikipedia, two completely different things. Now my Userpage commons FP counter cannot count any of my FP's.

Please return my category as it was, and if it is not possible to have two different categories of FPs (one for Wikipedias and one for Commons), I think you should warn people before deleting and moving files of personal pages. Isn't it fair? If you told me so, I would have given you permission to delete category Wikipedia featured pictures by me, and keep the ones from Commons, which are more important. Anyways, now I have a big chaos among my pictures categories. Please revert your changes in every file to my Commons Featured pictures by Paolo Costa category. Thank you very much. --Paolo Costa (talk) 20:06, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry I just found out it was not you who moved the categories, you just deleted it because it was empty. I'm going to re-write this on user Cirt's page. Sorry for the misunderstanding. --Paolo Costa (talk) 20:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Once again here. User Cirt told me it was you who tagged it for deletion. So I am back to you once more. Please revert the changes you've done, and if anywhere it is stated that I cannot have two FP categories for my pictures (one for Wiki and one for commons), then bring back the category of commons FPs and delete the ones from Wikipedia. I'm open to discussion, but I need my category of FP's on commons. Thanks for understanding. --Paolo Costa (talk) 22:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the two nearly identical named and undocumented categories were just a typo, as happens often with categories; indeed Category:Wikipedia Featured pictures of User:Paolo Costa Baldi looks pretty much like Category:Commons Featured pictures of User:Paolo Costa Baldi. Category restored by now. Please document them properly. --Foroa (talk) 05:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! But I did not understand what you mean for document them properly? I'm guessing you are suggesting to add some title to the pages to make them look differently. I'll do that asap. --Paolo Costa (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


It seems you and I aren't seeing eye to eye on categories at the moment ;-)

I think Category:NME should be the proper category and Category:New Musical Express should be the redirect. My reasoning for this is that "NME" is by far and away the most common name for magazine (and it's subsidiary tours and awards). Even their own web page is Also look at the logo in the category File:NME_logo.png. Looking at the proposed guideline Commons:Naming categories, it says we "should in general use the name most frequently used in English-language literature". A quick google search shows that "NME" 117,000,000 hits[3] is used over 22 times more often than "New Musical Express" 5.2 million hits[4]. --JD554 (talk) 09:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

NME is not a name, it is an acronym that tend to be very country/culture specific and that we try to avoid. As one can see in the interwikis on Category:NME, this terms is disambiguated on at least 5 wikipedias for a very good reason. One can be sure, the moment that a term is disambiguated somewhere, it will need disambiguation one day on Commons too as we go much deeper in categorisation and naming than any wikipedia. On Commons, we have not such a thing as primary topic as those are very culture/country specific; categories must tell what they contain without doubt (with the exception of some country and capital city names and national symbols. Just do a search here on NWE. I can move it to Category:NME (magazine) if you prefer. --Foroa (talk) 17:53, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
NME is actually a registered trademark. The quote from the proposed guideline I provided a link to shows that the concept of a primary topic is coming to Commons. I agree with Category:NME being a disambiguation page, but feel that the category would best be served by Category:NME (magazine) as you suggest as an alternative. --JD554 (talk) 19:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Tram depots in BelgiumEdit

I would like to limit this new category to: tram depots in use or recent use (rail tracks stil visible). In Belgium there are numerous ex-vicinal depots now in use as bus depots. We could create a sub category "ex tram depots in Belgium". Most are ex vicinal but not all.Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I created and filled the subcategory Historic tram depots in Belgium. Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Good job, I added wrong ones on purpose to trigger a more clear definition, maybe that "former tram depots" to match Category:Former train stations in Belgium and prepare for "former tram stations" such as Category:Hoeilaart train station (former) and the postcards on the hundreds of "tramstaties". Maybe we will need a specific cat for "stelplaats", some of which are nor a depot, just a place where they are on standby for a while (to sleep ?), such as File:Stelplaats rit bij Oostende renbaan.JPG. --Foroa (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Clarification neededEdit

Can you explain me (and to the italian wikisource community) why you have deleted the Category:It Wikisource books (moved to Category:Italian Wikisource books), and did not the same for Category:De Wikisource book (to be moved to Category:German Wikisource books)? Different behaviours for the same kind of category. It seems to me a sort of discrimination. Can you please proceed in the same way for the german category?

Thanks, --Accurimbono (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you better take this up with the person that requested the move, the German move has been reverted for some reason. --Foroa (talk) 21:43, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Done. But I don't see the reason for the stop. And why only german moving has been stopped at the time and not all others? --Accurimbono (talk) 07:56, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Those harmonisation moves where much needed, the German one has not been stopped, but reverted. No idea why. --Foroa (talk) 08:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Funerary monumentsEdit

Hi Foroa. Why are you insisting that Category:Funerary monuments in Belgium should be included as a subcategory of Category:Cemeteries in Belgium? This is not how the category tree works at a global level, where Category:Funerary monuments is a subcategory of Category:Death customs and Category:Monuments and memorials to people, and not of Category:Cemeteries. This is presumably because not all funerary monuments are in cemeteries. They include all graves (which may well not be in cemeteries), burials at cathedrals, church memorials, effigies, epitaphs, prehistoric tombs and towers of silence (shouldn't imagine there are too many of those in Belgium).

In fact, Category:Cemeteries is a subcategory of Category:Burial grounds, which is a subcategory of Category:Graves, which in turn is a subcategory of Category:Funerary monuments. That makes perfect sense, as a Cemetery is a Funerary monument, whereas a Funerary monument may not necessarily be a Cemetery.

There is, however, a problem at the global categories that needs sorting, as Category:Funerary monuments is a subcategory of Category:Monuments and memorials to people, which is a subcategory of Category:Monuments and memorials, which is a subcategory of Category:Funerary monuments. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

(EC)That is maybe your logic, but not necessarily most people's logic. The previous logic was having graves in cemeteries: that is the case for 95% of the graves and hat is the most elementary logic that must be apparent. Because one keeps creating intermediate categories, graves became completely unconnected from cemeteries (unless stepping up and down through several intermediate categories). So I could live with one intermediate category at the most.
Making Category:Burial grounds a subcategory of Category:Graves is the reverse order: graves are in burial grounds.
I see that when modifying categories, you systematically change the order too which makes it painful to find out what really changed. From now on, when I see that you removed incorrectly a category, I will not try to correct it, simply revert it.
Buildings in Onroerend erfgoed categories are buildings with a "heritage" label, which has nothing to do with other categorisations in buildings, churches, museums or just the place. So please, don't call that overcategorisation. --Foroa (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Why the aggressive tone? If you disagree with the global categorisation, why not start a Category for discussion. The global categorisation places Category:Burial grounds as a subcategory of Category:Graves, and that is where you need to raise your disagreement with the order, rather than throwing a hissy fit.
I moved the Onroerend erfgoed categories as we are told not to place in one category that is a subcategory of another, but I actually largely agree with your point on this one. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This top level category structure changes at least two times per year and it not abnormal that it is a bit wieldy; but it is next to impossible to find the relationship between cemetery and graves in less than 5 minutes, which is obviously wrong. However, people tend to overlook the bottom up side of the problem. In many places, one of the first categories besides churches and town halls, is a cemetery, often followed by some graves on that cemetery, and that is where most villages stop. If we want people to make good categorisations, they should be able to find their basic structure in the higher level categories; they should not need to make a series of local local intermediate categories such as death customs, burial grounds, Monuments and memorials, Funerary monuments, ... --Foroa (talk) 18:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Thank you for fixes on various photos I transferred from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons. It was my first time doing that and I learned from your fixes what to watch out for the next time! Again thank you for catching the errors. Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. Don't hesitate to ask. --Foroa (talk) 19:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Category:Max Ludwig (General)Edit

Hello Foroa! You have a Category:Max Ludwig (general) created. "General" in German is a noun and is therefore written with a large G. I have created a new category with the same name and corrected this error. Could you please delete the old category? You also have added this person in the Category: People of Gotha. This person died in Gotha. Is that common in this case? Thank you for your efforts and many greetings from Sweden --Old European (talk) 21:26, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Our basic language on Commons is English and we don't use capitals in disambiguation terms (writer, artist, painter, politician): all without capital. We cannot make a rule that is different for each country. --Foroa (talk) 22:00, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok, if you say that. I assumed that the category has been selected according to the lemma. And the original (German) lemma is called Max Ludwig (General). I was not going to demand a separate rule. Excuse the effort. PS: What about my question about the inclusion in the category: People of Gotha? Greetings again --Old European (talk) 23:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
No problem, it was late yesterday. Concerning Gotha, that's precisely why we use "People of Gotha" and not "People from Gotha". For many people, it is not really clear where they are really from and making of and from categories will not work and are a cause of disputes. So the compromise is of to indicate places where people spent a significant part of their life. What's important on Commons is that we can organise relationships between items, without being precise. In a next round, it could be possible that we find trace of the general in Gotha (grave for example). In the long run, this is the real added value of Commons: connecting things. --Foroa (talk) 07:58, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Category scheme for plants, fruit, vegetables, trees, etcEdit

Hi Foroa,

I was wondering if there is an official (or unofficial) scheme for plants, fruit, vegetables, trees, etc. Most things seem to be organized by their latin names, but are often organized by common names as well, particularly in the case of fruit, vegetables, flowers. I've been placing the fruit (Category:Apples) inside the Latin species name (Category:Malus domestica) but this isn't always easy, since other types of apples may belong under the Genus name (Category:Malus). Then there are cultivars (Category:Apple cultivars), which could alternately be named Malus cultivars and/or Malus domestica cultivars as well. Some categories add "fruits" to the common names of the fruit to distinguish from the whole plant (Category:Okra fruits).

We also have (Category:X-based food) as well as (Category:X as aliment), which isn't such a problem, but could be standardized.

Any advice and/or thoughts on this? Thanks! - Themightyquill (talk) 20:33, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, there have been many attempts to rename all items using common names into scientific names by what I call Taxomaniacs. This has calmed down significantly last year, probably because they start to realise that there must be a cohabitation of both naming systems, as you noticed, with apples, cats, dogs, horses, fruit, vegetables, food, spices, herbs, natural textiles, ... the relation is rarely one to one. So I did spend significant energy in trying to keep those common name categories alive as they are really needed.
As those sorts of naming battles seem to be calmed down, we might think of some sort of scheme, but frankly, I would currently have no idea how to tackle it as they have quite different logic. --Foroa (talk) 06:33, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Actions taken on CFDsEdit

Thanks for taking action on some of my CFDs, but you probably should add a comment at the end of each related CFD discussion explaining what you've done. - dcljr (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I prefer to spend my energy on solving obvious cases and close them as soon as reasonable by action; too many CFD's stay open for years. When looking in Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2012/02#Category:Pictures_and_images_by_country, all the red links make it clear that actions have been taken, clicking on the red links show precisely where it has been moved to by whom; basically as could be deduced form the discussion. --Foroa (talk) 06:00, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Sculptors, painters ... from LiègeEdit

Ok, I will group them as in Ghent. --CrucialFriend (talk) 16:46, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Děkujeme, odcházímeEdit

Hi Foroa, firstly, thank you for your work with renaming categories, however, I'd like to ask you, why you rename and delate "category:Děkujeme, odcházíme" and replaced by "Category:Protests by ambulance workers in the Czech Republic (2010-2011)". Děkujeme, odcházíme was and still is official name of this protest in the Czech Republic, see cs:Děkujeme, odcházíme, and as second it was not protest of workers with ambulance but protest of all doctors working in the Czech Republic. Therefore, renaming and deleting of this category was mistake and Czech name of it is the right one. Not this "artifical" name. So please restore the category and recategorize images again. Regards --Chmee2 (talk) 14:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Renames has been requested by user:Jacklee as one can see here. Proper documentation might avoid such surprises. --Foroa (talk) 14:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)--Foroa (talk) 14:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, this is not my problem, who requested it :) What I am saying to you, that the mistake in renaming was done by "you". Of course, I can write to Jacklee, but you deleted the category so it is appropriated that you restore it again and therefore I am asking you to restore the category and fix your mistakes because it is obvious that the renaming of the category was wrong. Please, do it and next time, check more details of the the request on "homeland" wikies. And you are right, more documentation was needed however in the time of the riots, we have no idea that it will be official name of it... With all the best --Chmee2 (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, this not my problem. Category names should be in English in the first place. Category:Děkujeme, odcházíme restored, but that name could mean anything. --Foroa (talk) 10:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Well... thank you really much for your assistance and for your help. Have a good time, regards --Chmee2 (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, ik zag dat je dit deed. Ik had recentelijk al een paar (andere) redirects geplaatst op de projecten waar ik zo rondhang. niet goed dan? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Zoals de edit summary zegt: hard redirects binnen een enkel wiki project, softredirects voor categories en links naar andere wikipedias. (Zie Commons:Database reports/Broken redirects) --Foroa (talk) 14:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


...could you please explain this action? Thx - A.Savin 16:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Let's be serious: one cannot say that this is an image representing a musician with a synth, unless looking really hard. See here as well. --Foroa (talk) 16:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Commons Category:Alitala ExpressEdit

The Italian airlines "Alitala Express" do not esixt, the right airline is "Alitalia Express", I think there was a misprint in the creation of the category, so it would be appropriate to delete it. Chesipiero (talk) 21:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

That's not a reason to blank the category; somebody has to clean it up and indicate what the right name is. Please use {{Badname|Alitalia Express}} for such cases. --Foroa (talk) 05:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Properties of the National Park Service by typeEdit

Is there a naming convention I missed when I created Category:National Park Service properties by type? --Auntof6 (talk) 01:19, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Categories usually start with the topic name, left to right. We don't want to end up with constructs like "Historic Soviet Union National Park Service properties by type". --Foroa (talk) 19:36, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


Hi! What is problem with categories about Macedonia? I think of those hundreds that I have created, and you have deleted them and put a type system of government on them title? It's not a practice on Commons and as far as I know here we not put terms like Republic, Kingdom or State in the title. Best regards--R ašo  20:39, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Subcats should correspond with the parent category. --Foroa (talk) 06:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Which parent category? You have all renamed! Just main category was Republic of Macedonia. But that's no excuse.--R ašo  19:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Overwriting an existing imageEdit

Hi. Isn't it true that you're not supposed to overwrite an existing image with a completely different one? If so, you might want to take a look at the version of this image I discovered. Nightscream (talk) 23:26, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but its concerns his own picture and the uploader and owner changed his mind in the first 24 hours. (almost 3 years ago) --Foroa (talk) 06:09, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Maxliebermannreal grave.jpgEdit

Dag Foroa, is deze afbeelding volgens jou in orde of kan ik de oude versie terugzetten? Ik werkte gisteren aan Max Liebermann en vind de originele versie beter, maar ik wil natuurlijk niet op iemands teentjes trappen. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Inderdaad een randgeval; de eenvoudigste "no-fuss" oplossing is een copie maken van het origineel (of de de nieuwe versie in een retouched versie zetten). --Foroa (talk) 06:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Dag Foroa, uit het antwoord van User:Smerus leid ik af dat ik dit anders zal moeten oplossen. Wil je me daarbij helpen? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
File:Maxliebermannreal grave original.jpg (save as en opnieuw upload). Beste groet. --Foroa (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Bedankt! Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 08:52, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Tank RegimentsEdit


Why did you move "Category:Tank Regiments" to "Category:Armored regiments". The category discussion is still running and you did not point out any reason for your moving action. --High Contrast (talk) 14:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

There was no reaction on the discussion requests on category:Tank Regiments since several days. As the category was wrongly capitalised and several badly named categories had been created (italian tank regiments, U.S. Army Tank Regiments, USA Tank Regiments, Japanese Tank Regiments) I moved it to Category:Armored regiments in line with the parent category of [[::Category:Royal Tank Regiment]]. --Foroa (talk) 17:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I see. It is easier for other users if the "discussion board" of this category is closed then. --High Contrast (talk) 18:38, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I have tried to embed this category in a new category tree in dependence on the tree on en:wiki. If you want to, you can look over it. Thanks in advance. Regards, High Contrast (talk) 18:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Great. In the mean time, I moved it to Category:Armoured regiments for name consistency. Any idea what to do with the CFD on Category:Wehrmacht_Panzertruppen ?--Foroa (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Category RenameEdit

Hi Foroa, I noticed that you removed my category rename request of San Thome Basilica, Chennai to San Thome Basilica. I am unable to find another category with a similar name as per your explanation. As per my understanding there is only one San Thome Basilica. --Jovian Eye storm 00:00, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The San Thome Basilica is basically a cathedral. There are at least two other Saint Thomas basilicas and several Saint Thomas cathedrals. As can be seen in COM:CAT, The category name would be enough to guess the subject, which is the primary naming rule and is not the case for Saint Thome/Thomas basilica. So lets not waste our time in removing useful disambiguation terms. --Foroa (talk) 05:19, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Gadget autodelEdit

While I can understand that you're frustrated, I have to protest: I didn't remove the gadget

  1. out of the blue
  2. but because it is a serious security vulnerable.

If you want to use it for yourself just add


to your User:Foroa/common.js.

Next time I will add a watchlist notice before making changes. If I feel a growing hostility against the few remaining script-maintainers, I will quit. -- RE rillke questions? 17:38, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

That is not a hostility against you, you do an excellent but not very rewarding job; software seems never good enough. I checked, and the last 4 months, I did 9000 deletions, mostly from category moves. As I can manage around 3 deletions per minute, I did spend 3000 minutes or 50 hours clicking like a zombie on deletion icons one by one. This is a very boring job and the removal of the autodelete function would double the needed time. Thank you for allowing me to continue to use it, without I would probably leave that silly job to other contributors. --Foroa (talk) 06:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Huhu, finally I managed to rewrite the gadget so it is now secure. If you like, you can remove the stuff you have added to your common.js and activate autodel (if it isn't). The behavior is now slightly different: Don't attempt to open the autodel-links in new tabs. Just click on the green litter box or the green Delete!. If you encounter errors, let me know (or use the autoreport-feature). Thank you. -- RE rillke questions? 16:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, but it doesn't seem to work. And each time, it forgets its autodelete mode and request me to completely rewrite the edit summary. --Foroa (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. The error-dialog does not pop-up anymore each time you click a link on the page. After clicking the AutoDelete-tab it prompts for the default reason. Then, each time you click a Delete! it has to ask for confirmation because malicious users could pipelink something else: File:The wrong file.jpg. I could add config to the script to skip the dialog, if you like (per user basis or per page basis). But you would not see that File:ADCCanada.JPG (which was/is listed at Commons:Database reports/File description pages without an associated file) actually contains a file.
It should pre-fill the delete-confirmation with the reason, you've initially specified. You could even change the reason later on, if you like, clicking again on the AutoDelete-tab.
But you can be fast, even with the dialog: Just press enter after clicking Delete!.
I am curious about your thoughts. Regards -- RE rillke questions? 17:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to work (I don't need that every day), but the second dialog box for each new delete is a waste of time: mass deletion use the same edit summary. It is a pity that the edit summary edition cannot recall previous ones: in normal edit summaries, we only have to type the first letters/word to get a complete text back.
Would you please repair {{Move cat}} so that deletion can be done in one click; that saves me several hours of work per month (mouse pointer remains on the list when I go back using Alt left arrow; I bought specially a mouse that has a dedicated go back button) . --Foroa (talk) 06:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
It's only a waste of time if you viewed the page before. Otherwise you don't know what you are going to delete. But since you like adventure, you can put window.skipAutodelConfirm=true; in your User:Foroa/common.js. In this case deletion immediately starts after clicking either the green litter box (don't open in a new tab if you want it as fast as possible) or the delete link (opening in a new tab is useless).
The last used delete-summary is pre-filled in the dialog prompting for the default reason.
Is there a reason why you left the page and had to go back (sorry, don't know what you exactly did when processing User:CommonsDelinker/commands)? Is this something we could perhaps let a script do? Also removing the templates from the command-page could be done by script, I think, after deleting the categories. Thoughts? -- RE rillke questions? 22:27, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Foroa, I will change the label of the tab from AutoDelete to Add DelteLinks. AutoDelete sounds like "The page will immediately deleted what is not the case. Regards. -- RE rillke questions? 20:06, 7 July 2012 (UTC)   Done

OK for me.
{{Move cat}} deletions work now like a charm. Many thanks. Some smaller remarks:
  • as you are quick to refresh the source category, half of the time it comes back in blue, the other halve in red, probably meaning that you get stale data half of the time. No need to slow down to get that right (green icon disappears anyway); you better remove the source cat refresh to remain consistent.
  •   Fixed -R
  • It could be interesting to append the reason (third field) to the edit summary.
  • No need for further automation as most of the time, I have to inspect or move some items manually (templates, artefacts of the delinker that runs parallel threads creating very often incoherencies and stale cats)
Autodeletion doesn't work on other pages. (I have set window.skipAutodelConfirm=true) --Foroa (talk) 06:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Gadget autodel - problem leftEdit

Gadget seems to delete all my deletion edit summaries (cooky ?) which means that I have to retype all the time (tens per day) a complete clickable edit summary. If this cannot be solved easily, I would like to have at least the following two edit summary messages "remembered" in which I can paste the needed cat name:

  • Moved to [[Category:xxx]]
  • Moved to [[Category:xxx]] - making place for disambiguation category

--Foroa (talk) 06:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Foroa, I admit, I unwatched your talk page due to the high traffic :-)
I fear I need further clarification before I am able to respond appropriately. Are you referring to the default delete form that can be invoked through action=delete or a dialog? Regrads -- Rillke(q?) 21:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
No. When editing items, the system maintains a number of edit summaries in memory which means that one can type a long and elaborate edit summary with links and reuse it later on for similar cases (by typing the first characters). Since your deletion gadget is operational, it seems to delete the list of former deletion summaries so for each deletion summary that is different from the proposed one, I have to type it in completely. A typical example and time-saver is Moved to [[Category:xxx]] in which I used to patch the new destination category when deleting a redundant category. --Foroa (talk) 05:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Foroa, the question was an or-question and your response was no. I guess you are referring to one of the gadget-dialogs. Even if you may not be interested in technical details, I think it's time to tell you some of them:
When a dialog is created with JavaScript the input elements are not part of a <form>-HTML elemnt.
Only inputs that are inside form-elements will get an autosuggest by your browser.
Only if you submit the form, the items in the text-inputs are added to your browser's autosuggest-cache.
The problem is that it would create a lot of overhead to wrap a submittable form around the input and prevent that the page will be reloaded (submit target would have to be set to an iframe, ...).
I am not sure whether it would be easier to create a js-autocomplete and using DOM-storage or using the aproach above.
The gadget does not delete your native browser's delete reasons that should be displayed in the second line in forms like that (the plain input field); it simply can't. If you encounter this problem, it would be useful to me to know whether it also does not display suggestions in the edit summary of other pages as well. Thank you. -- Rillke(q?) 11:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
The problem seems repaired one way or another. Thank you anyway. --Foroa (talk) 05:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


I consider your "undos" as vandalism. It is vital that at least the wrong "category by name" entry is deleted from those silly redundant galleries. If you want to improve the galleries, then do so. Reverting a useful edit is not what improves the Commons. Why do you think I spend my time adding authority data and making the Commons more useful for users? You obviously don't know what you're doing when undoing these edits, so just leave me alone. --AndreasPraefcke (talk) 17:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Andreas, I think that you should reread the gallery deletion rules. If we keep deleting gallery beginnings, we will never have decent galleries. Galleries take their complete role when categories start to be filled up with many images and categories. They are often completed by the people that improve articles and try to get the data better organised. And don't tell me that replacing the gallery content by a redirect is not a deletion. --Foroa (talk) 06:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Dmitry BorshchEdit

Dag Foroa, as the Dmitry Borshch article has been deleted on the English wikipedia, should the Category along with the files be deleted too, or is there a different policy on Commons? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't mean that the artist (or his article) is not considered notable enough by elitist Western standards, that he is not by Crimean Tatar, Ukrainen, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolian, (West Flemish), Absurdistan ... standards. His work seems to be present in many galleries worldwide. I am not God, so I refrain from using the "notability" argument; maybe this guy is becoming the Picasso of the next decade ... --Foroa (talk) 07:29, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Just imagine we would have discovered the Picasso of the next decade. o/\o :-) btw, I kind of like his pictures, seems something like to put on playing cards (the color is already there). If I would be him, I would present my artwork to that industry. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 08:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

You & your VandalismEdit

It´s not your category for any regiments on commons 

Sorry! why have you taken a deletion from User_talk:Skapheandros on the following files? You are not allowed to bring this action again to this one.You can suffer a deletion completely as a User from Wikimedia Commons and Creative Commons as User talk:Foroa.Now you know unless you don´t respet User:Skapheandros I advise you, you must be suffering a demand that you didn´t have previously any permission to be done as allow it.Why not you didn´t apply a category for all of them? where are all these images?. Request me devolving all of them, please.

Image:Tableu vivan.jpg Image:Pxw.jpg ‎ Image:Qas.jpg.tif ‎ Image:T.vts.tif ‎ Image:Algoritmo.jpg

Thank you 


I warned you on of your art work. --Foroa (talk) 13:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


Hi. Why did you delete that category redirect? It is a valid one. That politician is known by her surname, and her name is very long. It is useful. Please, restore it. emijrp (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Cospedal can mean several persons and things. Search for Cospedal and you will see. Would be nice if we had to redirect to all surnames ;). --Foroa (talk) 17:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

1915 Ensor Banquet of the starved anagoriaEdit

Dag foroa, er bestaat onder Category:Paintings in the Metropolitan Museum of Art een Category:Flemish paintings in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, maar geen Belgian paintings in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, wél ook een Belgian art in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Meen je dat het aanmaken van deze category zinnig is? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 05:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Ja waarom niet: die Flemish gaan ooit wel veranderd worden in Netherlandish or Early/South Netherlandish onder bepaalde invloeden ... --Foroa (talk) 06:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

your assistance please...Edit

Over on COM:VP there was a discussion over the actions of User:Howcheng -- who instructed a bot to empty categories like Category:Photos of Shane T. McCoy and Category:Photographs by Shane T. McCoy and create new categories like Category:Shane T. McCoy and strip the contents from the existing categories.

I believe the consensus of that discussion is that Howcheng never should have authorized such massive changes, without discussion, and that the action was not a good idea.

Am I correct that there is some peculiarity in the WMF software that prevents restoring the contribution history of deleted categories? The real life Shane T. McCoy weighed in in one of the categories -- I believe it was Category:Photos of Shane T. McCoy. He is not regular contributor here, and I thought his comments there were quite important to record.

If you can restore the contribution history would you please do so? Geo Swan (talk) 18:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

  • I hope no one minds my barging in. We can easily restore the contribution history at Category:Photos of Shane T. McCoy (where he made numerous edits himself) and Category:Photographs by Shane T. McCoy (where only one edit was his), but can't move that history to a different category. I'll fully restore those two categories. It would be appreciated if someone else would redistribute the photos in Category:Shane T. McCoy to these and any other categories where they may belong. - Jmabel ! talk 23:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Geo: it looks like your last edit on Category:Photos of Shane T. McCoy turned it into a redirect; I'm restoring it anyway, with the full history, and you can sort it out from there. - Jmabel ! talk 23:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Frank H. NowellEdit

I can see you've been doing a great job sorting out the Frank H. Nowell stuff, but one of these I think may be an error. File:Seattle - Carolina Court ad 1916.jpg: what's it got to do with him? - Jmabel ! talk 23:28, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Corresponds with what you inserted in the author field. --Foroa (talk) 17:02, 5 May 2012 (UTC)


Good morning, Foroa. I've seen that You're changing the names of the categories 1 and it's categorisation 2 in the articles about the places in the Republic of Mountainous Karabakh from local Armenian names to Azerbaijani names what is actively supported by Azerbaijani f.e. User:Interfase and Turkish f.e. User:Takabeg users.
I want to explain that to the English chapter of wikipedia all articles about the settlements in the South Caucasus (former Armenian, Azerbaijan and Georgian SSR) were downloaded by user Carlossuarez46 from the official sources of this three post-soviet republics.
I want to mention that in the late 80-s in the Azerbaijan SSR took place an ethnic cleanings against Armenians (1, 2) what caused a full-fledged war in Azerbaijan SSR between the Azerbaijani armed forces and Armenian ethnic minority. However, in the region of Nagorno-Karabakh the majority was consisted by Armenians, while Azerbaijani Community of Nagorno-Karabakh. After the collapse of the USSR Azerbaijani armed forces couldn't take the control under the Armenian populated region of Nagorno-Karabakh which have declared an independence and passed a referendum (were supported by more than 99% of voters). After years of the war, on May 5, 1994 in Bishkek representatives of Republic of Armenia, Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, Republic of Azerbaijan and Russia's representative to the CSCE Minsk Group signed a provisional ceasefire agreement - en:Bishkek Protocol which have introduced the defacto borders between the unrecognised Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh and Republic of Azerbaijan. Today in the Azerbaijan there're no Armenians and in the Nagorno-Karabakh there're no Azeris. The borders since signing a Protocol in 1994 are unchanged and there're stabil situation.
So while user Carlossuarez46 downloaded to the wiki articles about settlements of the South Caucasus he have'not tooked into account that the info about the settlements in Nagorno-Karabakh are wrong, because they're given by the state which doesn't control this areas, however there're unrecognised state which controls this areas since the collapse of the USSR and which has a real database. In spite of the fact that Azerbaijan takes one of the last places in the world with the human rights by the way since 1993 (19 years), there're only two president's in Azerbaijan - Geydar Aliyev and his son Ilham Aliyev, oil industry in Azerbaijan is very developed that's why major states don't want to impair relations with such type of state by recognising of small state wich took defence from such rich state more than 20 years.
As I see, unfortunately, You're supporting changes of the names in the commons from the local Armenian names to the Azerbaijani names which proclaims Azerbaijan and which are useless in Karabakh. Wikipedia is not a political source, so we shouldn't pass the political statements of the state against the names which are used by locals and in unrecognised state. We shouldn't mislead the reader with the official China names about the Taiwan as well as with the articles about the Nagorno-Karabakh. Both this two states has all the signs of the state and both of them are independent for a long time, so the names of the PRC and Azerbaijan there're useless. Please, take it to account to not mislead the readers. --Ліонкінг Lion King 08:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Ліонкінг, I sympathize with your difficult situation while we tend to help minorities, but we are not taking political positions: we have to serve almost thousand wikipedia projects in 270 languages, so we have to try to use names that serves best the ensemble of our users, why we tend to follow the English wikipedia names in most cases. Obviously, a category name like Tsar can mean many things, so it is completely normal that it is renamed (not by me) to a properly documented and referenced category. I have seen several moves between Sushi and Susha, each time mixing up the town, rayon and province, so not surprising that some one tries to get it properly done and referenced. If you want to find acceptance of the local names in your region, the first thing you should do is to make sure that people use the most common names find them and that all places are properly documented and referenced. Just renaming them stubbornly will not help your cause. --Foroa (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Textiles and Category:FabricsEdit

Dag Foroa, in some way, these categories seem to similar and related, though I do not quite see the point. I was working on the Textile page and noticed there is a reference made to both categories. Would ik make sence to merge them and to make one category? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 09:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

They are related and hard to differentiate indeed. I tried to improve documentation, but it is difficult. Note that I see fabrics for all the things that are non traditional woven, but including equally more abstract interpretation of fabrics such as social, communication, network ... fabrics. --Foroa (talk) 13:27, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Foroa, I will try to remember. In fact, my question was based on this file. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Link to ToolserverEdit

You can link to Toolserver using [[tools:...]], which means you can make links in edit summaries in this way; tools:~magnus/commons_sumitup.php --Z 12:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I use that every day: it is enabled in my preferences/gadgets, so I have it always in the left menu toolbox bar. --Foroa (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I mean, here for example, as you know [http://...] format doesn't work in edit summeries, but [[...]] does, and you can link to TS like this. --Z 12:53, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Alvise dal FrisoEdit

Dag Foroa, deze cat hoort niet in parent/boven cat: Paolo Veronese, de link is voldoende, hotcat verorzaakt een fout.Oursana (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Dat is jouw standpunt. Ik heb de gewoonte sterke relaties tussen mensen om te zetten in categorie verbanden, maar daar is geen duidelijke Commons regel voor. --Foroa (talk) 05:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


I noticed that my usertalk redirect didn't work as I expected; it was my first cross-wiki redirect. I'm indifferent to it working "properly", but didn't know it was showing up as "broken" -- so thanks. -- Eriksiers (talk) 17:25, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Category in countriesEdit

Why did you change Category:Military in countries to Category:Military by country of operation. The new category name seems much less clear to me. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested by user:Auntof6 during his major clean up works, quite rightly because having "military" of and "military in" together is a recepy for mix up. --Foroa (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


Hi, Foroa. As long as I understand, you are expert in categories. What do you think of the case of Category:Dargeçit/Category:Kerboran ? I think it's very clear case per en:Dargeçit. Do I have to go to Commons:Categories for discussion ? Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

First, thank you for the wonderful job you are doing here. As can be seen in the interwikis of en:Dargeçit, that's the one. This would have been different if the Kurdish names and language would be formally accepted by the countries that make part of Kurdistan. (as we do with the Spanish side of the Basque Country). --Foroa (talk) 18:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
And when you have the time, could you check Category talk:History of Persia ? Takabeg (talk) 14:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I guess that I need some time to investigate and to find a clean, simple and non-disputable time line, but my current feeling is that the History of Persia should include all time before the name Iran popped up. Personally, I might prefer to have it all under one single "Ancient Persia" umbrella, thereby eliminating all "non ancient" Persian things, especially all the related mixups, but I doubt that this would be feasible/acceptable. --Foroa (talk) 18:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts. I think that Category:Cuisine by region is not suitable for Category:Kurdish cuisine. Because even in the United State, the Kurdish cuisine is Kurdish cuisine. Are there categories such as Cuisine by ethnicity, Cuisine by culture etc. ? Takabeg (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That is a thing we never can get right as most cuisines are ethnicity driven, while mostly categorised by political/administrative country categories. For culture related aspects, countries and regions are simplifications of a reality. So we have a cuisine of China but Chinese style restaurants. So here, we better associate the Kurdish people with the Kurdistan region, otherwise we get in troubles. It is not bad when make such an error, provided we make systematically the same error. --Foroa (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


Hello :), i have undo your edit in Category:Ducati because the terms of contract are not yet final and it is not quite correct to categorize the category: Ducati as you did, it would take more than the category of industrial or financial group, not the car brand. if you can, please reply in my talk page mad then I forget :( ciao :) --Pava (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I removed also part of the description, as descriptive and not superfluous, not suitable to a field of this kind, in order to deepen reads the voice --Pava (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Fine with me. You are playing with words. Sooner or later, other people will revert it anyway. --Foroa (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Wakefield PlantationEdit

Dag Foroa, this category is in fact about Wakefield Plantation, Alabama and not Raleigh, NC, but I am not sure if and how to change this. Will you show me? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Thnks. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 11:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Bathurst class corvettesEdit

Ik heb de schepen gecategoriseerd volgens het inmiddels bekende stramien. Maar User:Bidgee draaide dat voor drie schepen terug, vanwege "no consensus". Hoe pakken we dat alsnog op? Die consensus over de naamgeving wachten we al een hele poos en ik zie weinig vooruitgang. --Stunteltje (talk) 18:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

In sommige gaten en sommige pipos zijn stijf ambetant voer standoards. Hier eb je de 2 t'hope. Een paar moanden wachten en laten ernoemen deur de bot of iemand van die kanten. Sorry voer 't geheimtoalke. Wat betreft de consensus, enerzijds is de standaard allebehalve volledig gedocumenteerd, anderzijds is een standaard dikwijls goed voor de anderen, niet voor hun eigen geval. --Foroa (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Snappo. Ik was al eens begonnen met een Engels totaaloverzicht van de nieuwe standaard, maar die heb ik te veel verborgen in een zankbak ergens. Als ik die terugvind meld ik dat wel en kunnen we kijken of we zo rond de 20.000 schepen op naam wel consensus kunnen lospeuteren. Dan kan die template er eindelijk ook eens af. --Stunteltje (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Het waren de eerste paar alinea's van User:Stunteltje/Sandbox/Ships. Misschien kan je daar eens kijken of ik de plank ver missla als ik de eerste twee stukken, over de naam, alsnog zo inbreng in de lopende discussie en om een eindoordeel vraag. Dan komen we ergens, nu blijft het hangen. Je kan er gewoon tussendoor commentaar in zetten, dat het ik ook aan een paar andere mee- en tegenstanders gevraagd. --Stunteltje (talk) 20:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Heb wat tijd nodig om te overdenken. Mist absoluut een kort overzicht/samenvatting van de naming rules; momenteel moet de volledige tekst doorlezen worden om te weten wat de conclusie is. --Foroa (talk) 05:04, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Inderdaad, vond ik zelf ook al. Ga ik samenvatten. --Stunteltje (talk) 05:46, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Heusden schandpaal.jpgEdit

Please stop adding this image to the category of Pillories. It is a borderstone of a former waterboard, not a pillory. Waterboards weren't responsible for pillories in the Netherlands. It also has never functioned as a pillory. The ring that is suggested to be added for the purpose of a pillory was added at the renovation in 1992 long after pillories were abolished in the Netherlands. LeeGer (talk) 21:29, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The original text states that it is a kaak, a schandpaal. --Foroa (talk) 05:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes the uploader might have thought it was a pillory, but people can be wrong. See the discussionpage of the file for numerous arguments why it can not be a pillory. Please use common sense instead of just assuming the name of the file is the absolute truth. LeeGer (talk) 15:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Jean-Philippe RameauEdit

Dag Foroa, on the article there is a colored image of him. Would it make sense to look into the possibilities uploading it on Commons? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 04:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Probably same as File:Inconnu d'après Augustin de Saint-Aubin, Jean-Philippe Rameau, détail (Museo internazionale e biblioteca della musica di Bologna).jpg - look at the various versions. it:File:Rameauuu.jpg is scheduled for transfer to Commons, so, unless in a terrible hurry, I would just wait for it. --Foroa (talk) 06:14, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll wait, haast en spoed is zelden goed :っD Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Cuisine of BelgiumEdit

Dag Foroa, there is a Category:Cuisine of Belgium with a Category:Cuisine of Wallonia. Should there be a Category:Cuisine of the Flanders too? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

With a contents as in Category:Cuisine of Wallonia, that looks not very encouraging. You will probably find a small series of preparations that are incontestably for Category:Cuisine of Flanders (asperges, witloof, waterzooi and a series of gebak and snoep), but when looking in Category:Cuisine of Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Category:Cuisine of the Netherlands, you are in for many discussions. Good luck to document the differences between stamppot, hutspot, hutsepot, stoemp, and also puree, stampers, melkstamp, dauphinois, ... And Frites, are they Flemish, Belgian or ... ? --Foroa (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
You are right, cuisines become global and I am not into many discussions... Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 09:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I noticed you added to Vlaamse Hutsepot the Category:Stamppot. In my humble opinion this is not a stamppot because the vegatables are not mashed. I would rather call it a Pot-au-feu and thus add the Category:Pot-au-feu instead. Maybe the Category:Stamppot should be fit into the Category:Pot-au-feu ? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 11:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
The verschillen tussen door elkaar roeren, mengen, stampen, mixen zijn nogal subtiel en streekafhankelijk. I think that hutsepot is more a potée than a pot-au-feu as most liquid disappears, but both are French cuisine ... All subtle differences, good for long discussions. --Foroa (talk) 12:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

File:EPO 2537.jpgEdit

Dag Foroa, this file and maybe similar ones should in my opinion be renamed. What to you think? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 13:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

At second thoughts, as it already exists as File:Carnival versions of Louis XIV and Marie-Antoinette in front of Versailles Palace.jpg, it should be deleted I guess. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 13:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Normally, I don't waste my time on file renames, enkel om je een plezier te doen en om te zien hoe de delinker zich uit de slag trekt, alhoewel je zelf een deel veranderd hebt in sommige wikipedias. --Foroa (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Meaning... I am wasting my time, bedoel je dat ik de files ongemoeid moet laten op de wikipedias waar ze in voorkomen? Da's namelijk goed om weten, zeker al jij dit zegt. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 18:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Mijn persoonlijke prioriteit is werken of het niveau van categories omdat dit de boel hier samenhoudt. Dit betekent niet dat ander werk onbelangrijk is, maar met de tijd en energie die nodig is om een file te hernoemen kunnen er heel wat files gedocumenteerd en geklasseerd worden. De delinker is voorlopig gestopt, maar zou inderdaad al de file refenties moeten aanpassen; benieuwd als hij die laatste templates gaat vinden op de pt:wiki. Wait and see. --Foroa (talk) 05:11, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Foroa,

Please do not revert from category:Food with beer to category:beer cuisine.

there is already one category dealing with food with beer, there is no need for another.

Thanks, Gveret Tered (talk) 09:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)


Shouldn't Category:Arcology be a subcat of Category:Planned communities rather than vice versa? For example, the communities of the garden city movement certainly planned communities, but not arcologies. - Jmabel ! talk 16:15, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Typically, an item one never gets right. Arcology is a concept so should be as high as possible and close to architecture, urban studies, ecology ... I added quickly Category:Planned communities to it to get it connected and in the hope that people would select the planned communities that fall in the arcology class to it. For new categories popping up, my primary concern is to get them documented and connected in the right area so people can refine it. I am positioning 100 or so new orphan categories per week, so don't expect me to get their whole entourage perfect. --Foroa (talk) 16:42, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
You say "don't expect me to get their whole entourage perfect." Fine. I take it that means you don't mind someone else changing it. I try not to second-guess experienced contributors without contacting them first. - 16:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedians of/from/in BelgiumEdit

Dag Foroa. Een paar dagen geleden kwam ik een category tegen die naar de verwees, en ook naar het feit dat iedereen een email kon aanvragen viaeen simpel verzoek te richten aan Nog steeds volgens deze category, waren er 2 admins waarvan ik me de naam zou herinneren mocht ik ze opnieuw lezen. Heb jij enig idee waar die commomscat nu is? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 11:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Ik heb er mijn twijfels bij dat er een goede dergelijke lijst zou bestaan. Category:Users in Belgium is allesbehalve compleet, Commons:List of administrators by language zou kunnen helpen. --Foroa (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Foroa, slippertje of mine, the list was on en:wiki and an anonymous user was so kind as to remove the incorrect information meanwhile. :-) Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Copyright violation?Edit

Hallo Foroa, why do you have deleted the File:Stralsund, Katharinenkirche, Laufrad (2007-05-20).JPG? ((Lösch-Logbuch); 11:43 . . Foroa (Diskussion | Beiträge) löschte Seite File:Stralsund, Katharinenkirche, Laufrad (2007-05-20).JPG ‎(Copyright violation, see Commons:Licensing)) - I don't understand, what do you mean: It was a photo taken by myself?! --Klugschnacker (talk) 12:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, a mistake. Restored by now. --Foroa (talk) 13:35, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


The template causes masses of overcat. In your version, it sortes any municipality in their region cat the italy cat, which are parent ans grandparent to the province categories, hence overcategorization. Please do not revert again. Best, --MB-one (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

It took the Italian people several months of intensive discussions to agree on that structure.
  1. there is the Category:Municipalities in Italy, in which all municipalities are categorised.
  2. There is the side category "municipalities in Italy by region" for the items belonging to the region.
  3. There is finally the side category "municipalities in Italy by province" for the items belonging to the province
Categories are not parents from each other.
This is no overcategorisation, as you can have for the same painter: from France, Baroque painter, 17-century, ... Similarly, the same river can belong to a by name, by region and by department category (example: rivers of France).
Since there have have been 20 new provinces created in Italy the last 20 years, and now they are talking to eliminate them, and along with other potential country reorganisations, those two side categorisations make perfectly sense and are easy to maintain. --Foroa (talk) 07:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
First of all, in the current state, Category:Municipalities in Italy by region and Category:Municipalities in Italy by province are subcategories of Category:Municipalities in Italy, which has now over 6000 (six thousand!) direct subcategories. 2nd, any object (or category) which is sorted in “Municipalities in region” is therefore automatically also sorted under (even if not direct) Municipalities in Italy. The same applies to all objects sorted as “Municipalities in the province of ...”. Additional categorization in parent categories is called overcategorization and not helpful.
Your example of painters isn't applicable because not all painters of the 17th century are from France, but all municipalities in any given province of Italy are in the same region I would even argue about the maintenance efforts for the template. But that's another story. Best, --MB-one (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
It is great finding all municipalities of Italy in one category Category:Municipalities in Italy: this avoids misnamings or double categories, and more importantly, finding them without knowing the latests province or region organisation, using maximum two mouse clicks. Without them, the category would only contain 12 categories.
I can give you plenty of examples where such side categories exist (quite rightly) but much more difficult to maintain:
So if you feel that you still have an existential problem with it, I'll change the template to have all municipalities in Category:Municipalities in Italy by name as such a list is fundamental for the organisation and finding. --Foroa (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Again with your examples: they aren't full applicable. Even if, the fact that overcategorization exist in other cases as well, isn't helping. For the purpose of having a full list, Commons isn't the place. Wikipedia is made for such things. So, yes I have a problem with that. But that's not the point. It causes problems (as explained in Commons:OVERCAT). A separate Category:Municipalities in Italy by name as such, wouldn't be against the policies, although I don't feel a need for it. Best, --MB-one (talk) 19:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, that is your opinion. You are making the same mistake as many people here: people are getting deeper into more specialised categories, which makes it more difficult to find them if you don't know precisely the name. From the German painter above, you removed quickly the real useful parent cat, so if one doesn't know precisely the name of the painter, one has to search in the lists of portrait or expressionist painters to find them. One has a similar problem on wikipedias, especially for places. A lot of people seem to forget that Commons should be organised to facilitate finding and navigation places, even if little information is available, as happens daily with the thousands of images that are uploaded but not categorised. In most countries, categorisation of place related images is difficult; one has to know the state/province/district/kreis/ ... to find the way. While, like postal adresses, most of the time, we know only the city/village and country. Good luck to find it if you only know that it starts with Borgo or Castello. Not to mention the variations on the disambiguation terms. And frankly, it is a pleasure to categorise in Italy as when you are in a place, you see immediately that you are in Italy, that region and that province. In most countries, you need many clicks to find out in what kreis/state/province/country you are; no wonder many people don't try to better categorise. So your argument of full list is moot; those lists even rarely exist in wikipedias, and even if they do, they don't use exactly the same names/disambiguation and anyway, we need such list to see what is missing on Commons. --Foroa (talk) 06:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Like I said: I don't need a Category:Municipalities in Italy by name. So yes, that's my opinion. If you need a full list, why dont't you write one in your favorite Wikipedia? Maybe it will be translated. The current system is designed to evolve towards more specific categories. Otherwise, any file would have to be sorted in an infinite number of categories. The side effect (not a problem, IMO) is, many files are sorted only very roughly after uploading. But over the time, the get sorted more and more precisely by people, who know a bit of their matter, like you do about provinces and regions in Italy. Can we set--Foroa (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2012 (UTC)tle this already? Best, --MB-one (talk) 17:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

We need a dynamically updated list from what is precisely created and how it is exactly written. --Foroa (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

What does that mean, concerning the overcat issue of the template? --MB-one (talk) 15:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Six weeks gone. Still no answer? --MB-one (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with Foroa. We have a nation, Italy, a wide country that was divided into regions (larger) and these into provinces (smaller), in each of them there are many municipalities. To place the municipalities in the regions and also in the provinces is not a overcategorization, but a different level of research. I may want to know which municipalities fall into the same region or in a particular province. If we put the municipalities only in one geographic-administrative category and not in the others, this research will be impossible. But this discussion was already there when we made ​​the template ComuneItaly, and agreement was reached to this solution. So I don't see need to throw it all away because one user does not agree. With regard to the provinces, they are minor areas that have a geographical or cultural or ethnic characteristics. It's true that today in Italy is discussed to abolish all or many of them, because of economic problems and to save on government spending. Whatever the final outcome will be, I do not think that we should abolish them in Commons: what will be abolished is the province as an administrative body, but the province as a cultural-ethnic territory that will remain forever. It's a geographical territory with its features. --DenghiùComm (talk) 09:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Nobody proposed to abolish the province categories. But placing a municipality in a province and the respective region (and, as per current state, in the nations category) is plain overcategorization. If you want to know, which municipalities are in the same region, ask Wikipedia, or, in the near future, Wikidata will tell you. Best. --MB-one (talk) 12:03, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
As I stated above, this in NOT overcat; they are in the main category and in the side "by xxx" Categories. --Foroa (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I thought that we where already beyond that point. What you call a "side category" is in fact a subcatgory. Lets pick any municipality, say Inverigo. Category:Inverigo is sorted (correctly) in Category:Municipalities in the province of Como, which is (again correctly) sorted in Category:Municipalities in Lombardy, which is sorted in Category:Municipalities in Italy by region and at last Category:Municipalities in Italy. Inverigo is already sorted in all of these categories. But the template puts two of these on top directly in Inverigo. How can you say, that is no overcategorization? Because it simply is a violation of the Overcat policy. Please figure it out. Best --MB-one (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
The "by xx" categories are side categories and have nothing to do with the main category. I will not spend the rest of my life to try to explain that to you. If the municipalities are in any of the by region, by province, by century, by size, ... side categories, they still can be in the main category. --Foroa (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Do redirections allow categorizationEdit

To solve the problem of Category:Escaut (see history since 2011 June 3rd), I have opened a discussion at Template:Category redirect. This template would be perfect if categorisation is allowed with it (which is not clearly mentioned in the doc). Regards, Jack ma (talk) 09:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

It is clearly forbidden in the redirect template and in some of the Commons texts for very good reasons. I'll reply more extensively on the template in a few days. --Foroa (talk) 09:44, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Honi soit qui mal y penseEdit

This and this and just after 2h12m2s someone with a nearly identical opinion... that's very fast... and not to forget about him. Strange smell of sockpuppets, isn't it? Greetings.--FAEP (talk) 23:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry too much. I guess that it is a matter of national pride. Just avoid that it is clearly written that the Italian Ducati is now owned by a German company; that must hurt. If one day, Sergio Marchionne would manage some of Mercedes, many Germans will not be pleased either. --Foroa (talk) 05:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Nikolaj GlubkovskijEdit

Hello. This is not very clear to me that the Category:Nikolaj Glubkovskij has been translated into Swedish. If the original language (Russian) is not suitable, I think it would be better to use English. Thank you. — Steven P. (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that is the best transliteration from Cyrillic that I could come up with. Feel free to provide better alternatives. --Foroa (talk) 05:05, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Generally, the literature uses the name Nicholas Glubokovsky. For example. — Steven P. (talk) 06:17, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Canadian Forces' categoriesEdit

Roger if you want to keep the (useless in my opinion) Military of Canada, Air force of Canada and Naval forces of Canada categories, but why do you keep reverting the category on sub-categories like CFB Lahr for example ? Why would it have to be over the CF category when the "CF" in "CFB" means Canadian Forces or why certain ships would have to be in the main category instead of the category made for ships ? I may understand you have reticence for the major structure changes, but for the others did you look or do you just revert for the sake of reverting. The only single category I may see in Category:Military of Canada that wouldn't go under Category:Canadian Forces is Category:Military history of Canada (and the categories Air force of Canada and Naval force of Canada, that will contain only one category each, so that's why I don't understand their purpose). If you could explain to me one purpose of those. Also are you really expecting a discussion on every single file ? I think your abusing, a simple removing of a category because a file is already in a sub-category of that category should not require all that trouble... Amqui (talk) 04:10, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

If you make hundreds of moves to ruin a category structure that you don't like or understand, revert blindly most of our reverts, don't expect that we repair the damage in 5 minutes and that all repairs are perfect. I will not discuss this till I get the top level categor--Foroa (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)ies restored, for which I will need several days. --Foroa (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
They are pretty much restored, I don't see what else need to be (re)done now that we have to keep the top-level Military of Canada, Naval forces of Canada and Air force of Canada categories. All the other categories that were previously under one of those three top-level categories fall under a more precise category if you look at their content. While I can understand at the limit the purpose of Category:Military of Canada, I really don't see any use for Category:Air force of Canada and Category:Naval forces of Canada. Amqui (talk) 17:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Not to criticize Amqui's work, who I can see is doing some long-overdue cleaning up on the Canadian military categories (thank you), but on this issue I agree that there is some value in the parent categories. For example, we do have media on Commons pertaining to Canada's contribtions to the air war in WWI, which predate the Royal Canadian Air Force, thus making Category:Air force of Canada a helpful parent category (although like its naval counterpart, it might best refer to air forces, but that's a discussion for another time). --Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Ack. Amqui (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Ack, indeed. :) --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

لاہور, پېښورEdit

What was content of the pages لاہور and پېښور? --Z 16:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

They both contained {{R from alternative language|ur}}, an unused template here. They keep popping up in the list with red links and I am tired of cleaning them out. --Foroa (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Category movesEdit

First I would like to thank you for your help in moving Washington state categories. I am also writing to let you know that I have made move requests of categories in Category:Lakes of Washington (state) and I do not want you to make the mistake of treating these the same as the other move requests because of fatigue. Again thank you for your help. Allen4names (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. I moved 150 or so top level Washington (state) categories in September last year, and I am a bit surprised that it took 8 months before someone got the courage to complete that further. For uncontested moves, you might as well compile a list and put it in User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands. This should create less work and work faster. --Foroa (talk) 15:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I will consider it but I may miss some categories that need to be moved. Thanks again. Allen4names (talk) 15:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Animal rights advocatesEdit

Hi, was there any particular reason for moving this to Category:People associated with animal rights? The academic literature tends to use the term "animal rights advocates," which is why I used it plus it's shorter. Also, "associated with" doesn't mean the same thing. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Was there any particular reason to move everything from Category:People associated with animal rights to Category:animal rights advocates, especially, as you state, it means not exactly the same thing. Commons tends to use a more neutral and to group pro-, anti- and just people involved in the processes/control/inspection under one umbrella; this avoids long discussions (and edit wars) and gradations such as defender/activist/terrorist. --Foroa (talk) 06:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Category:People associated with animal rights was almost empty when I found it. I'm currently trying to get the animal rights cats in order, and one of the things I want to do is create a separate cat for advocates. I called it Category:Animal rights advocates, as that's the most common term, and it embraces academics, other writers, celebrities, activists etc. "People associated with" has a different meaning. I've seen lots of Commons cats that list people according to belief or activism.
Is the normal thing not to discuss before making a mass move, and to hold a formal move discussion if no consensus can be reached? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Category:People associated with animal rights contained several tens of items before you moved it, so I reverted it; the category gets its name for a very good reason so need a formal move request, especially when that is different from the normal naming habits. On Commons, the most common and neutral term is "people associated with"; Commons is a media server, so we have to go for the most simple and global categories to simplify categorisation and searching. Advocate can have a different meaning in various countries/cultures; many people sympathising with the cause and especially scientific and administrative people will not like to be called advocate which is not neutral. I know several scientists that would be very upset by calling them advocate. --Foroa (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
There were very few names in Category:People associated with animal rights when I found it, and at least one was opposed to animal rights. The term "animal rights advocate" is the common term in English, and is used by academics. Anyone who is an AR advocate would be happy to have the term applied, so it's not POV, it's just descriptive. The AR images have always been in a poor state, so my aim is to fix them up, and as part of that I would like to create an animal rights advocate category, and another for animal rights movement (for the groups and campaigns). Then if there were enough images in the former cat, I was going to create country cats -- French animal rights advocates, British etc.
Category:People associated with animal rights could mean anything, and it won't help readers find who is an advocate. Also, there are lots of activist and belief-related categories on Commons, so I'm not sure why animal rights advocates would be problematic. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Also, why are you removing people from the cat? [5] [6]SlimVirgin (talk) 06:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
See COM:OVERCAT; it makes no sense adding the same categories to the images AND the parent category, unless you absolutely want to draw in a maximal number of pictures in your categories. I don't think that adding all pictures of Bryan Adams or McCartney will help you finding items. Anyway, other overcat cleaners will pass by one day and remove for example all pictures that are already in Category:People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. --Foroa (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to keep one image of each person in the animal rights advocates category, to make it easy for readers to find individuals by appearance, and to give them a quick overview. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I can understand that as I encountered such problem several times, but it is difficult to manage; which picture, and how to check/avoid that there is one per category, and just one. Moreover, there is no naming convention for the files, and sort is difficult too. Overcat fundamentalists here will "correct" that anyway. I would like to have a priority/postcard type of image per cat and an option (and/or by hovering over the cat name) to display cats by primary image, but getting something going on the SW side here is ...
The only (arguably) workable compromise I found so far is making a side category "xxx by name", insert there the categories, and having the pictures in the main cat. --Foroa (talk) 18:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I must add that some people keep thinking that one should add as much categories (as tags) as possible. So indeed, the removal of overcats is badly needed. --Foroa (talk) 18:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Categorization is something I'm very rarely involved in, hence my lack of knowledge, so I appreciate your guidance. My only aim here is to organize the animal rights images into cats that can be found easily. I've also noticed over the years that people keep removing images from the animal rights category for reasons I don't understand, leaving AR-related images uncategorized. So it would be quite a big job to find and categorize them, then make sure they stay in the right cats.
The problem I've encountered is that people don't like it when we keep and categorize images on the English Wikipedia, which is why I decided to try to do it on Commons instead. But I don't know the rules and conventions here, so I feel as though I'm between a rock and a hard place. Any advice and support would be much appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Not easy indeed why softer/neutral wording might be preferable. After all, we have some AR extremists and terrorists too, which implies a lot for many people.
Categories are a bizarre thing. As you have seen with our two mass moves, it is next to impossible to revert completely to a situation from a few days before, especially when several people are working on various parts of the trees. It is relatively easy to discover newcomers or changes in a category; the disappearing is almost impossible to see. But the job needs to be done one day ... --Foroa (talk) 09:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
@User:SlimVirgin, why did you undo my edit List of animal rights advocates??? In my opinion it does not make any sense to have double images in one article, as I mentioned on you talkpage over there. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 13:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


Please note that "Meleke" is a kind of "Jerusalem Stone" and not the opposite. There are several kind of Jerusalem stone, the best, white in color is called in arabic "Meleke" (stone of kings), but it's not the only one. There are several other kinds of Jerusalem stone : yellow, pink, etc... Meleke is only one sort among others of Jerusalem stone. so "Category:Meleke" is a sub-category of "Category:Jerusalem Stone" and not the opposite. Thank you for not removing.

Djampa (talk) 13:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Wrong, but I will no longer waste my time. Mekele is the more scientific and international name of it. --Foroa (talk) 13:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Category_talk:Meleke; typical, its Arabic. Jerusalem stone is a generic name used for a collection of types of stones of all sorts found in the Israel area but mainly the Category:Meleke variety. The latter is an international well accepted name for one precise type of stone. To avoid all sorts of edit revert wars, I moved the imprecise Category:Jerusalem stone to Category:Use of Jerusalem stone. --Foroa (talk) 04:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

History of QuébecEdit


Why did you deleted the category:History of Québec to replace it by category:History of Quebec? Québec, with the accent, is the official name and French is the official language of the province! Wikipedia is not an English only encyclopedia!

Pierre cb (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

We are just uniformising the use of Quebec according to its root category and its many other subcategories. We cannot mix several notations in one single structure, otherwise navigation tools and people get too much confused. And because of software restrictions, categories on Commons can only be in English, a curse for you, but a blessing in the many countries that have 3 or 4 official languages. --Foroa (talk) 04:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Frans (Ain)Edit

Hello Foroa,

I don't understand why you replaced Category:Frans by Category:Frans (Ain); I didn't see any possibility of homonymy. And, just for fun, you created a terrible content, related to English Gothic architecture  . I fixed it. Croquant (talk) 06:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello Croquant. Just look in de:Frans, en:Frans, es:Frans, nl:Frans (doorverwijspagina), pl:Frans (ujednoznacznienie), sr:Фран. 60 % of the interwikis in Category:Frans (Ain) are disambiguated; then it is quite obvious. There are about 150 categories starting with Frans, searching Frans returns 15500 results. And just a detail, Frans means French in Dutch. Thank you for correcting the documentation mistake. --Foroa (talk) 07:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't want to give more importance to this topic than it deserves, but, in English (the only language that matters in Commons categorization), the only potential homonyms are first names, which are not candidates to categories; so, it's the reason why I made that initial comment. Croquant (talk) 07:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
You wouldn't use en:Martin, en:Lee, en:Sabine, en:Amelia, en:Percy, ... as a place name without disambiguation I guess. --Foroa (talk) 07:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Computer graphic algorithmsEdit

Hi. You have removed description from above category. I have added it because :

  • some categories are hard to understand using only their names
  • commons category should have similar structure as in wikipedia

so I think that short description is useful. Regards. --Adam majewski (talk) 07:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree absolutely concerning good documentation; it seems obvious that in Category:Computer graphic algorithms, I revert "improvements" that delete references to other languages and wikipedias and that insert invalid reference statements. --Foroa (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, to my knowledge there is no Category:Mutiny, would it be wise to have such a category ? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 10:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably interesting to have it, not sure if it should be Category:Mutiny, Category:Mutinies / En:Category:Mutinies might be better. --Foroa (talk) 17:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, would you take a look at this file? It should be moved but I do not have a clue on the new name it should get. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

You could brew a new name from the old one and its category name. --Foroa (talk) 07:45, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Done, but heb er een potje van gemaakt denk ik :-) Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 08:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
That's ten times better than what it was, stop being frustrated. I challenge them to do better. --Foroa (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Lotje, Category:Norfolk Wildlife Trust is een goede oefenplaats om een category boompje op te ztten. En je vindt er honderden (meestal niet gecategoriseerde) beelden. --Foroa (talk) 12:49, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Okopisko at Jagiellońska Street in SanokEdit

Hello. I cleared in discussion with arguments and vericable sources the "wannabe" negative name of that square. There is an accepted and mentioned in books, newspapers, media news name "Okopisko". No one has problem with that. By side the new category Category:Square at Jagiellońska Street in Sanok is wrong and not correct, because it isn't square !!! (geometric) and this category name says, if it would be...--Lowdown (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I need some time to investigate and will come back on it on the CFD page within a few days. Don't worry, the problem will not go away automatically... In the mean time, could you add references to official use of that name (bus stop, cemetery name, ...). --Foroa (talk) 16:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Statuts, Ordonnances et Armorial de l'Ordre de la Toison d'OrEdit

Dag Foroa, the description on all the images says Brussls instead of Brussels. I corrected one, but I assume there is a possibility to have them changed all in one go. Am I right? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:20, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

See #File:EPO_2537.jpg. You could issue a request on COM:BWR. From the 13 million of images on Commons, there are certainly 20 % that have descriptions that are incomplete or contain errors. You will not run out of work in the near future. --Foroa (talk) 18:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Perth stationEdit

OK, we now have an utterly ridiculous name - we've gone from Perth Train Station, which was descriptive but incorrect, to Perth Station, the legal name, to Perth Station, Western Australia, which sounds like a little desert outpost somewhere rather than the central train station for about 1.8 million people. ("Station" in that context with the state is ambiguous, as it could relate to a pastoral station, which all have the name "X Station".) The problem is in the fact that the most logical and correct name, "Perth railway station", is being taken by a railway station in Scotland (hence my use of "Perth Station" in the first place); my proposed solution would be to use that name as the basis for disambiguation between the WA and Scotland ones. This would require *another* category redirect and move, plus a move for the Scottish category as well. Can we do this? Orderinchaos (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Just top confuse things I disagree on wiki and off wiki with the above user - we do not need to carry over the issue that is causing grief on wp en - I say leave any qualifier such as country regardless... the use of logical and correct does not help - the name as found at the moment is fine - because of the way it has panned out on wp en- I would say an y further conversations or moves need to be made with over-caution SatuSuro (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Just to clarify, my proposal was to rename "Perth railway station" to "Perth railway station, Scotland" and "Perth Station, Western Australia" to "Perth railway station, Western Australia". I'm not suggesting removing the state/country names for the exact reason SatuSuro has indicated. Orderinchaos (talk) 05:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I have been worrying since a couple of days about the category (re)naming style of Orderinchaos . The renaming to Perth Station, which, as can be seen in en:Perth Station, is an Estrac radio station, demonstrated clearly that we are not moving in the right way. This triggered my actions. Maybe firts a recall of some basics.
There are about 15 places called En:Perth. In practise, it will end up with 20 to 25 such places. Of course, for you, your Perth is the most important, as the Scottish Perth is the most important for the Scottish people that probably invented the name. And maybe, one day, we will have Chinese, Arabic or Russian names that transliterate to Perth.
As can be seen in COM:CAT, The category name would be enough to guess the subject, which is the primary naming rule in Commons. So renaming and shuffling around all sorts of categories such as Perth Station, Perth station, Perth Railway Station, Train station, Perth, ... to find a subtile but unique combination does not help.
Do you really think that there is only one Category:Perth Cultural Centre in the world, one single Category:Main Street, Perth, Category:Alexander Drive, Category:Cockburn Road or Category:Albany Highway ? Just tick on the "Search not in category" tab and you will quickly find out.
It is a good practise to name categories using the same style and disambiguation as the parent category. A systematic approach makes life easier for all user and make categorisation bots more efficient.
When I saw your move from Category:Perth Cultural Centre, Western Australia I was wondering if I shouldn't suggest you to change your nice user name into Chaos in order, but I guess it is related your appreciated enthousiasme and to the lack of experience.
Yesterday, I renamed Category:Perth railway station, Scotland. For the others, please insert a {{Move|better name}} as needed. --Foroa (talk) 05:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Re : "I have been worrying since a couple of days about the category (re)naming style of Orderinchaos" - I do have a talk page. You don't have to worry in silence, or get into brief edit-wars - if you have a concern, simply raise it. It is called "assuming good faith". We are *all* volunteers here trying to do the right thing - mine in particular is uploading upwards of 3000 images relating to not only my home state but other parts of Australia, helping to coordinate Wiki Takes... events, and so on, and the categorisation is primarily to assist in logically sorting and cataloguing the images for later reference - either mine, or others interested in Western Australian topics, which until this effort had been fairly disorganised and patchy. I have on numerous occasions sought and received advice from people on categorisation, and have followed the lead of various other contributors who do this far more than I. Assuming I'm some sort of vandal or am doing things without the input of others would be a mistake.
I could answer each of the above questions re categories but am about to run off for dinner. With Main Street, it actually is unique within Perth; and there is no such named street in the Tasmanian, Ontarian or Scottish varieties. With Perth Cultural Centre, the name itself is unusual (the name "Cultural Centre" is actually misapplied, but it's the legal name of the place), so it too is unique. And while I can understand your reasoning, the problem is that having unwieldy, multidisambiguated categories strung over 4 or 5 lines on a display (much more on a mobile display) when they are not necessary makes it harder for readers, users and editors alike, however much it may satisfy the purists. Orderinchaos (talk) 08:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi Foroa,

I thought you might be interested in Commons:Village_pump#Categories:_the_primary_way_to_search.2Fnavigate_Commons. --  Docu  at 04:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

  •   Done--Foroa (talk) 05:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

per-stad categorieënEdit

Dag Foroa.
Is het de bedoeling dat dergelijke categorieën worden bevolkt? Of gewoon links laten liggen? Mvg.  B.p. 05:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Animals in steden zijn niet echt nuttig voor species denk ik, maar er zullen er altijd wel gemaakt worden. Voor dierenmarkten, dog beauty shows, kwekers of asielcentra kunnen ze wel nuttig zijn. Wat betreft natuurlijke regios, zoals de Kempen en Hoge Venen zouden ze wel zin kunnen hebben, wait and see zou ik zeggen. --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi Foroa! Thank you for your help in maintenance of categories. Last time I tried to do the same edit than you, but you were faster ;) Samat (talk) 10:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Mass movesEdit


With which tool do you such mass moves of categories? Regards, High Contrast (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Procedure (use only paste as text)
1. Make a list of the categories (Catsan easiest, Special:Categories or Special:AllPages is a bit more cumbersome)
2. Paste the list in the second and third column of an Excel sheet
3. Replace whatever need be replaced by colums (most of the time for the second column, replace Category: by {{Move cat| ) (Excel Data - Text to columns - allows to split the crap, such as (21 members) into the following columns (not perfect)
4 Add columns filled with pipe, {{Move cat| or }} as needed
5 Copy paste the lot into a text editor
6 Replace the tabs by nothing.
Hope this is clear. --Foroa (talk) 13:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Reckon for real simple massive cases 15 seconds of work per case, on average I guess it takes 30 seconds per cat. Already for the deletion, it is rare to get better than 4 per minute (working concentrated like a zombie). Wikimedia is not a real transaction database; things that are moved more than one time by SieBot in less than a minute or so might "overwrite" the previous move. Templates that insert categories can slow down the work significantly. --Foroa (talk) 13:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:National Park of the Atlantic IslandsEdit

Hello Foroa. About this:[7]

[Category:National Park of the Atlantic Islands] => [Category:Islands of Galicia (Spain)] => [Category:Islands of Spain (Europe)] => ... ... ...

Regards. --. 09:17, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:National Park of the Atlantic Islands is a park and an organisation, not an Island and mostly unknown on an international level. If you want to be pedantic about overcategories, you have the remove the Island category at that level. --Foroa (talk) 09:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi, could you explain to me why that (and similar reverts) make sense. What I see is a gallery that was created by a bot, picking up files with no attempt at organizing them. No human ever ever edited it. Compared to a category, it has no benefit but is way harder to keep up to date. Both common sense and "official guidelines" suggest that "if there is only a gallery with little or no content, a gallery title can be redirected to a corresponding category". Regards. --Zolo (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Galleries can only be deleted when they have one image (or less than 2 ;). See MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown. In Commons talk:Galleries, they propose even to keep single image galleries. If we keep delete beginnings of galleries, we will never have good ones. The need of galleries will increase as categories fill up, which can go incredibly fast. Redirecting is effectively deleting. --Foroa (talk) 13:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Well that is not a permanent deletion. It the relevant question is not how many files are in the category, but rather: does the gallery offer benefit compared to the category. In the present case, it is quite clear that it does not. If someone wants to create a real gallery, no one prevents her from doint so. I see many good galleries created from scratch, at least as many as galleries expanded from stub-level. So I really doubt that redirecting stubbish galleries has any negative impact. --Zolo (talk) 13:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Nothing is permanent in Wikimedia. That is the rule that is agreed upon in Commons:Deletion policy and Commons:Criteria for speedy deletion. Redirecting is emptying it, so corresponds with deletion. --Foroa (talk) 14:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Use of Commons sum-it-upEdit

Hello Foroa,

I have a question about Commons sum-it-up: how do you get only en and fr descriptions, as you did for instance in Category:Aize? Is there another way than removing the unwanted ones? Croquant (talk) 15:01, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

No, I copied/paste evrything from en: onwards and then manually remove the unneeded ones. For France, that is close to en:, it is not too much additional work; in India or Bosnia for example, it is much more complicated. Concerning the Interwikis, the most important is to have one interwiki; I suppose that bots will complete then. (Note that sum-it-up is an option in user preferences; when selected, you have it in the left toolbox menu) --Foroa (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Croquant (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Rename request on categories concerning the 2010 UDD protests in ThailandEdit

I have recently started a discussion on the appropriateness of renaming certain existing categories for which User:Jacklee has requested renames (see User_talk:Jacklee#Your_recats_of_UDD_Protests). We have decided to resolve this first before proceeding any further. Jacklee asked me to contact you to halt the renaming procedure if I didn't agree with them. Do you need a full list of the all the categories involved or will this message suffice? - Takeaway (talk) 16:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Trouble with setting up Photo GalleriesEdit

Hi Foroa,

I am trying to set up several pages in the user galleries of photos so that I can keep track of them, and add more photos to them over time.

I am sorry for the trouble I am causing you, due to my inept attempts at adding a gallery page.

If necessary, please delete the entries that refer to me which are on the top part of the Category:User galleries page.

I did manage to set up a page, and it appears at the top of the Category:User galleries page. But it is not included with the other gallery pages at this time. If that will be done in time by the software or admins., then it will not need to be deleted.

So that I can make better first attempts which end up being what's needed, could you please edit the following as needed, so I will stop causing problems.

( As a background note: I have looked into categories and galleries and how to add pages for several days now, as I want success and to not appear to be stupid, but alas and alack, the step by step instructions for success, are not included in the articles about this and that.

I have done data base programming in former life as a worker bee, and was complimented on my programs for their easy to use plus working as they should.

My basic rule was to not suppose or assume that the user was already adept at using the software, and just provide menus and steps that provided the wanted and expected result.

Not wishing to over inflate what I did or be critical of your goals and the volunteers who are a help to all of us, but in my opinion, I should have been able to already have set up a variety of gallery pages successfully, and moved onto something else.


Steps to add gallery pages in category "User galleries"

1. Go to "Category:User galleries"

2. Click on edit

3. Go to the BOTTOM of page editing area and enter {{User gallery|5shot/Oscar}} -- the /Oscar will identify the page as photos on "Oscar"

4. Add 5shot (talk) 01:48, 24 June 2012 (UTC) and a note in Edit summary:

5. A note should appear on the Category:User galleries about your edit and it should show in red.

6. Click on the red entry and a new edit page will appear.

7. Copy onto the edit area, the listing of photos to be displayed using this format for the image/s. gallery image:filename.jpg|text description of photo image:fiileame.jpg|text description of photo gallery 8. Add in any external links to articles.

9. Add: {{User gallery}} to link the page to the User galleries pages.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

I plan to upload several videos, and wonder if they can be added to a gallery page?


I speak only one language, and have difficulty with that, so you are to be admired and complimented for your language skills, and the help you provide. And you do not need to make any apology for the level of your fluency.

As a note of information, I worked with Gerard Henrotin, who operates H&L Publishing in Belgium, in translating several of his books in "American" English. He reads and writes English, French, and Flemish, and possibly German as well. He provided me with his English translation, which I then edited some to make the English more "American" than "European".

I also worked for a company that had a joint venture operation in Estonia, and in developing a name for a new company of out Tallin counter part, the word fora or forum was considered.

In any event, any help or criticism will be welcome and appreciated.

I also removed the < and > from the word gallery as when I preview the edit, the software acted on them and thought they were entries and messed up the presentation.

No problem.

If you have questions or comments, please respond. My e-mail is if you wish to use it.

Best regards,

John Veit 5shot (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Not to worry. The fact that you managed to talk on this page and to create a gallery shows that you get it right for 90%. I corrected the gallery and moved it to the right name space Gallery_of_user:5shot. If you want to create several galleries that are not to be connected to categories, you might be easier to create galleries with your user name such as User:5shot/my gallery One, [User:5shot/my gallery One/chapter 3]] ... Enjoy. --Foroa (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance.

Item 1:

I went to Category:User galleries and found the box with the entry"This is a gallery of files created by User galleries.5shot/Oscar

I clicked on user galleries which was in red, and was taken to a page with the warning box and clicked on "Gallery of user 5shot" which was in blue.

That took me to Gallery of user:5shot which showed the photos and an entry "Categories:Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa|user galleries"

When I clicked on it, I was taken to Category:Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa, which included a link to "Gallery of user:5shot" and which when clicked on shows the photos of the plane.

I did not wish to add that entry there, ask that it be deleted. The reason for that is that the person who set up the category may object to the entry without it first being proposed via a discussion.

Also, the photos already are in the Subcategory: Media in category "Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa" - as I added external links on the photo pages to that Subcategory.

I did that as the Subcategory is linked to in the external links section of the article on the Nakajima fighter. The link is in an entry in a box with the Wikimedia Commons logo, and noted as "Wikimedia Commons has media related to Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa"

Item 2

In the article on the Zero, and a few of US aircraft, I added an external link to my web page that has small photos plus links to 20 + photo arrays of WWII fighters. There is no advertising and a note that all of the photos are in the public domain and can be used my anyone in any way.

I was immediately taken to task and called a spamer and chided for being disruptive and threatened with expulsion, and the links were removed. And even though there were other external links to other sites, some of which were commercial sites and some with advertising.

I thought I was being helpful. :-) But I guess not.

So as to not upset anyone, I uploaded the photos and linked them to the Subcategory: Media in category..... And hopefully they will remain there, and be in a category that is directly related to the aircraft that is the subject of the article.

To make the process of uploading lots of different photo arrays and videos orderly, and to make it easy to make changes as need to their links, or adding links, I would like to set up a series of galleries like those found in the "Category:User galleries" and listed in the section: Pages in category "User galleries".

For example: User:-jkb-/Gallery User:-jkb-/Gallery Berlin User:-jkb-/gallery misc

The names I would use would be:

User:5shot/Oscar User:5shot/Zero

I plan to upload a photo array, establish a gallery page, and list the newly uploaded photos on it such as the photos of the Oscar.

Also, if there is a corresponding Wikipedia article on the subject plane, I will add a link to the media page shown as an external link in the article.

That is what I did with the photos of the Nakajima, and the Wikipedia software added them to that media page and they are shown there.

I made the file titles Oscara, Oscarb, Oscarc, and Oscard so that they hopefully would show up in that order. They did. I plan to use that naming method for other planes such as Zero, P47, P51, B25, and so on.

Hopefully this will clarify the situation.


So If I had the correct syntax for naming a gallery page: User:5shot/Oscar I could get started. ..........................

Thank you in advance for your assistance, and hopefully this book length entry has not been to boring.

Here is a note to make the long read more interesting. In one of my former lives as a worker bee, I worked for a company who had a joint-venture partner in Tallin.

One time I flew to Tallin via New York and Helsinki, with 100,000 in brand new 100 dollar bills in my carry on bag. They were compressed in shrink wrap so they made up a package of the size of two standard building bricks.

When we got the bills at the bank, the tellers looked at us strangely as I put the package in only a plain opaque plastic bag. On the flight I wore just plain black sweat pants and sweat top and running shoes. I got a few side glances from those on the plane from Helsinki to Tallin who were all dressed in European cut suits and had on top coats. They did not know that the ugly old American was actually James Bond who had a very valuable package in his plain carry on bag. :-) True story. 5shot (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

You are improving. You can add a gallery or a file to a category just by adding the category to it, not by editing the target category. By default, files in a category are sorted following the file name. You can override that by adding a sort key to the category declaration in the specific file, for example [[:Category:Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa|1 first one]], [[:Category:Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa|2 second one]], ... --Foroa (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I have been able to set up some gallery pages, so it looks like this problem is resolved. 5shot (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi Foroa, kan jij ook even een blik op deze foto's werpen ?:

en Commons:Undeletion requests/Current requests

Daar komt iemand met een verhaal opdraven over een architect, die zelfs nog niet geboren was op het moment dat het gebouw werd opgetrokken, en dan worden die afbeeldingen daarom verwijderd? Érg dubieus, als men hier al zomaar compleet foute informatie uit zijn botten kan slaan en dat op basis daarop onherstelbaar dingen worden stukgemaakt. (Dat riekt eigenlijk zelfs naar vandalisme, het soort fantasie waarmee anoniemen op wikipedia proberen desinformatie te pushen). --LimoWreck (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, maar ik heb geen gegevens gevonden over die architect Vleugels, en ondertussen zijn ze verwijderd. Blijkbaar zijn er hier nogal mensen die meer geïnterresseerd zijn om files te wissen dan om aan Commons te bouwen. Ik word er dikwijls moedeloos van. Als ik een datum heb van die architect kan ik de undelete requests supporteren; het gaat niet lukken door ze uit te kafferen; het enige dat telt is de sterfdatum van Vleugels. --Foroa (talk) 07:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Freddie Wong‎Edit

Do you care to explain why you think categories should be created for single files? 117Avenue (talk) 05:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no rule that allows deletion of categories because they contain only one item. All categories start small and images dropped in the categories inherit proper and more complete categorisation avoiding double, incomplete and redundant categorisation. Moreover, categories containing hundreds or thousands of categories are sorted and oversee-able. Categories with hundreds of pictures are a mess and can hardly be searched in. --Foroa (talk) 05:20, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Forgive me for the pointy example: But take any of the categories Category:Freddie Wong is in, could someone go around and start making categories for each person there, even if that meant those categories would only have one file? 117Avenue (talk) 06:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Sure. Look in the extreme example of the meta category Category:People by name: only categories are allowed as images without proper sorting could not be found amongst 145000 items. In fact, for many people with several "big" categories, a proper category becomes unavoidable, so most people make it immediately in stead of waiting till one gets a couple of images. After all, a category takes only a couple of bytes but facilitates the work of the downloaders that are in general not very motivated to create and document categories properly; the earlier a category is created, the less redundant work is to be done. Good luck finding your Freddie Wong image in Category:1985 births, Category:Internet culture or Category:People from Seattle, Washington. --Foroa (talk) 07:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
It seems redundant at first, creating a page with the same categories as a file. But I am seeing what you mean, it is a start of something. Now only if all 13 million files could be categorized correctly... 117Avenue (talk) 03:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
That's right. From now on, all new Freddie Wong related images are correctly categorised just by adding the Freddie Wong category to it. You would be surprised how often the tab "search not in category" yields results; difficult to find a more efficient method. Categorisation bots tend to find them too. --Foroa (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Move of Category:Marine animals at TasitoluEdit

Hello Foroa! I made yesterday a contra vote to the move request against Category:Marine animals at Tasitolu move to Category:Marine animals of Tasitolu, but it was moved without answering my voting. Tasitolu is not a sea, province or country, it is just a quarter of Dili. Marine animals of Tasitolu sounds like Marine animals of Brooklyn, New York. Greetings, --Patrick (talk) 20:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That is debatable indeed, as is the marine animals (or nature of) East Timor. On the other hand, native English speakers prefer clearly this notation, Category:Nature of New York City does exist and Tasitolu is a nature reserve too. We have to try to get consistency in category naming at least at the world level, and as deep as possible. Political/administrative divisions don't go very well together with natural divisions, but the former is the prevalent (and best known/defined) organisation, so we have to live with a compromise. --Foroa (talk) 05:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I wanted to say, the sea AT Tasitolu is part of East Timor and part of Dili District, but not part of Tasitolu, because Tasitolu is not an administrative area, just the name of the place. That's why all other categories of Marine life are like this:



A change could be made at the island of Atauro and the subdistricts of Cristo Rei, Maubara and Metinaro:

--Patrick (talk) 08:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! --Patrick (talk) 20:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. It is not my preferred solution but a compromise I can live with. --Foroa (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, ben je geïnteresseerd in een Belgian Chapter? Je moet maar eens gaan kijken. Men zegge het voort... Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 03:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, would you take a look at these categories? I am nog sure if my edit is correct, to do with the writing of the word: Impostor - Imposter. Thnks a lot. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:15, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Category definition was completely wrong, the en:wiki seems to prefer the most conservative spelling. Thank you. (I removed myself from the cat). --Foroa (talk) 07:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks and apologies for the inconvenience Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for tweakingEdit

Thanks for this, it was an oversight on my part. Cheers -- (talk) 07:29, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I forget many things too ... --Foroa (talk) 07:39, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Revert toolEdit

Please do not use this tool so liberally. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 16:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you disregarding this completely? -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 17:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Please give examples. If it concerns items where you have been overstepping your powers as a sophisticated bot operator such as contested category moves, then there is no need for a lot of explanations. --Foroa (talk) 17:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I have no powers. You shouldn't use your revert tool to revert edits of others such as how you done with my human edits to categories (I am not disputing the actual content change). You should have used soft reverts with edit summaries instead in such cases. Rollback is for reverting vandalism, spam etc only. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I tend to document the first or two first reverts, the rest I do as quick as I can. --Foroa (talk) 14:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Heritage Foundation categoryEdit

It looks like you set up a category named Heritage Foundation and a link to it has been added to my gallery pages.

I would like it removed and the links to it removed from my gallery pages.


The Heritage foundation may think that I have established that category using their name and without first obtaining their approval to do that, and that I am also trying to gain publicity for my photos by linking them to that category.

Their could be legal ramifications to that, so unless the Heritage Foundation sets up a category using their name or approves of that, I do not wish to be associated with it.

I have selectively linked my gallery pages to commons media categories that have been established by some other person. And I plan to continue to do that individually and on a photo by photo basis either when or after uploading.

I have had trouble using the "add a category" element of the upload wizard. When I added bracket bracket Category:B-25 Mitchell bracket bracket, this was added to each file. bracket bracket Category:Category:B-25 Mitchell bracket bracket

I then had to go to each image and edit it to bracket bracket Category:B-25 Mitchell bracket bracket )-:

Hopefully that software glitch will be fixed soon???

Thanks in advance for your assistance. 17:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Also some of the planes are not planes from the Flying Heritage Foundation and attributing them to the Flying Heritage Foundation via a link, could upset the owners of the other planes. It gets complicated, and I wish to avoid trouble. 18:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Flying Heritage Collection exists since almost 2 years, and it is perfectly logical that pictures from there get sorted there too. I guess that people from Flying Heritage Collection will be pleased with their category and get upset if the pictures from their place are not categorised there. Anyway, those pictures will end there, one way or another; that is how the system works. You might consider Commons:Tools/Commonist for uploading of series of pictures. --Foroa (talk) 15:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your help.

If I had read the history carefully, I would have noted when the category was set up. Sorry about that.

I became concerned when I saw the number of images linked to that page, as I did not know that others could change them in my gallery. I suppose they can as they are in the public domain and without restriction, but they might also delete or change the info on the images???

A user gallery is a private organisation, but all pictures have to fit in the global Commons organisation. And indeed, some day a person might come along to collect aircraft with red propellers, yellow stripes, pin up drawings, ... Info of the images is rarely changed, sometimes expanded, and can always be reverted.

Also, some of the images are not those of aircraft of the Flying Heritage Collection, so they shouldn't be linked to that specific Category. For example there are photos of 3 different B-25 bombers, and only one of the bombers is an aircraft of the Flying Heritage collection. --Foroa (talk) 14:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I supposed that the mention of "Paine Field USA" was equivalent to the Flying Heritage Collection, but it looks that this is not always be correct (as on the Sentimantal Journey" B17). --Foroa (talk) 14:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

So, who is responsible for keeping the links correct?

Categorisation is THE main backlog of the 13 million Commons images, a work that never ends anyway. Helping hands are appreciated. --Foroa (talk) 14:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks in advance for your assistance. 5shot (talk) 13:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: The B-17 images are of an aircraft that is not in the Flying Heritage Collection. 5shot (talk) 14:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Algiers CathedralEdit

Actually it is no more a cathedral, it changes her god two times, in 1832 and then 1962 to become again a mosque. I've requested a renaming to the category. Please take a look at the wiki article: en:Ketchaoua Mosque

Commons covers not only the present state, but history too. So, if it has been a cathedral some moment in time, it has to be categorised there too; we don't want to create a category "former cathedrals in Algeria" for this single case. --Foroa (talk) 16:05, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


Hi Foroa. In this category and subcategories I find two forms: Neighborhoods and Neighbourhoods. Can you please see which is the better or the most correct form and then to move the wrong category names? Thank you very much. Cheers, --DenghiùComm (talk) 19:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello. The problem is that there is no form which is better/more correct. Different countries use the different spellings. There are no "neighborhoods" in Canada (the spelling makes me think of something in Texas), while an American would likely pause and question why "neighbourhood" is spelled bizarrely. However, there should be consistency in the naming of the parent categories (avoiding having Category:Neighborhoods and Category:Neighbourhoods by country at the same time, for example).--Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:48, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I harmonised to the most frequent used one and all top cats are coherent. Obviously, in Canada they are not happy with it and in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and India, they don't seem to use it. That is as far as we get. --Foroa (talk) 14:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you at all ! --DenghiùComm (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Changing categoriesEdit

Hello. You are changing categories - ok. But after that you should change links in articles, don't you think? Regards, pjahr @ 11:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Articles should link to galleries, not to categories that change all the time. We have no way nor time to try to find the possible links in the 900 Wikimedia clients. The clickable destination category is always in the deletion edit summary. And creating categories with the name according the Common naming rules might virtually avoid all such problems. --Foroa (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Articles should link to galleries, not to categories - it is your point of view, anyone has to have tha same one? I disagree with it. I think you are doing mess and that suprise me that you are an administrator. pjahr @ 09:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
It is your choice, but then don't come back here to complain about broken links. I moved this year 12000 categories, and there are still many Polish categories to be renamed. --Foroa (talk) 09:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


I've noticed in your edit summaries it says you are using something called sumitup. What is it and how can I use it? Thanks.--Mjrmtg (talk) 16:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Enable sum-it-up in the tab My preferences - gadgets - Tools for categories - sum-it-up. Then you will see in a category display on the left side toolbox (at least in MonoBook, in Vector it might be hidden in a pop down submenu) a sum-it-up tab. Note that the performance of sum-it-up on the toolserver is mostly good, but sometimes quite unpredictable. If you insert one interwiki, the bots will maintain them all automatically. If you are not sure about the article name, the GLAMorous tool allows you to see where the images of the category are used. --Foroa (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
I've tried it on 5 different cities in Georgia I've created categories for with Internet Explorer and Google Chrome. After I click Sum It Up on the left hand side a new screen appears then I click the OK box and nothing seems to happen. I go back to the categories and no text has been added like you were able to do for Category:Valdosta, Georgia. Am I supposed to check either of the two boxes in the sum it up screen? Or are those optional? --Mjrmtg (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Strange, in my case (Chrome) it displays immediately the results. Does it display on the bottom after "Start with article " the category name followed by en in the next box ? Maybe, it waits for you to enter your first default wiki .Anyway, from that screen, I have to copy paste the relevant info. In general, I copy paste everything (mostly) starting from the English text, and I delete all the texts that are not relevant for the place at hand, unless the thing has a cultural meaning with many different words, such as Category:Mbira so that they can be found by search engines. --Foroa (talk) 07:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok : ) I need to copy/paste the text in the blue box. I thought when I pressed OK it would put that text onto the Category. Do you recomment copying over every language or just the English description. Thanks for your help. --Mjrmtg (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, there is some work left for you. As stated above: I copy paste everything (mostly) starting from the English text, and I delete all the texts that are not relevant for the place at hand, unless the thing has a cultural meaning with many different words, such as Category:Mbira so that they can be found by search engines.. So for US places, only the English texts, for Mexican places: Spanish and English. In Spain and other multi-language countries, it is a bit more complicated. --Foroa (talk) 05:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the gallery end tagEdit

Thank you for adding the gallery end tag. I am preparing my gallery content in text form for copying and pasting. I will try to remember to add both tags to the text file.


I think that you added a link using braces.

Should that format be used instead of ading a link by the use of brackets, or is it an optional method of adding a link?

Thanks again for your help. 5shot (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

In the smart editor toolbox, there is a button to add the gallery tag pair. User galleries should not be included in topical categories, so you can use a couple of ways to hotlink to the category:
  • {{See also cats|F8F Bearcat}} that produces
  • [[:Category:F8F Bearcat]] (with colon before category) that produces Category:F8F Bearcat
--Foroa (talk) 16:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.

I just used the upload wizard to upload some files. In the past when adding a category link I used bracket/bracket Category:anycat bracket/bracket - and the link added to the image was bracket/bracket Category:anycat:Category:anycat bracket/bracket - which does not work.

So I added only the name of the category such as - anycat - and with no brackets and without the word category in front of it. That results in bracket/bracket Category:anycat bracket/bracket which works. 5shot (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Problem with a template ?Edit

If you don't like this template, please discuss with his creator or somewhere (village pump...). It's used on 2000 images   ~Pyb (talk) 11:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Zolo knows, as you can see in the history of {{Object photo}}. He knows equally well that templates should not auto-generate topical categories as you can notice in the edit summaries, but he seems not to be inclined to correct the problem. I issued a bot work request to correct that (Commons:Bots/Work_requests#Template:Object_photo. Alternatively, I will bot substitute them all so the problem is solved too and I can delete that template. During category moves, I get the impression that I have more work with template adaptations than with the actual moves; frankly, I don't need more work. --Foroa (talk) 11:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
ok. As I didn't see any serious discussion, except by edits summaries... I've launched a discussion on the village pump. ~Pyb (talk) 12:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
This has been discussed tens of times, for most people it is obvious: no topical categories in templates. I will not redo the same discussion over and over again. --Foroa (talk) 12:25, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Guardia Civil, Spain?Edit

Hi, why did you move Category:Guardia Civil to Category:Guardia Civil, Spain? A possible confusion with Guardia Civil del Perú? Lobo (howl?) 17:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are not only several es:Guardia Civil (desambiguación), but there will certainly pop up Guardia Civil's in other Spanish speaking countries along with regional centres. --Foroa (talk) 17:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, maybe it will be useful in some future, although I can't see the problem cause actually there is no other police force or entity originally named just Guardia Civil. Lobo (howl?) 17:39, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok right, I have just seen the disambiguation page at en:wiki. Cheers. Lobo (howl?) 17:45, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I am not searching for such cases, I just stumbled over miscategorisations and therefore created Category:Guardia Civil, Peru. By the looks of it, there is still quite some clean-up to be done to split them properly. --Foroa (talk) 18:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Categories you tagged for instersectionEdit

I'm looking at categories tagged for intersection. I noticed that some of the categories tagged for intersection have {{Intersect categories}} coded with one of the two categories being the one that the tag is on, and that the first few of these I saw were tagged by you. This tag is supposed to have two categories other than the one the tag is on. An example is Category:Public art in Langenhagen. Am I missing something? Did you mean to put a different second category in the tag? I removed a couple of tags where I saw this, but I won't remove any more that you changed until I hear back from you. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

This is the most efficient, predictable and secure use of intersect to remove overcats that are higher up than the current category. That's the way I mostly use intersect; with two different cats, one can have some surprises. --Foroa (talk) 05:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, thanks, I get it! It would be nice if it were working right now, huh? --Auntof6 (talk) 05:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Template:Object PhotoEdit

Please stop that immediately. As I repeatedly stated, I do know there are problems with {{Object photo}}, but this template has been around for more than a year, was disccused on {{artwork}} and other high traffic page and used by several users, and does not cause any major problem. If it has to be removed, a bot can do nice substitutions with {{Artwork}}. The substitutions you are doing are truly awful. --Zolo (talk) 12:46, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I will solve that, either by hand, either by substituting them all. Templates should not include categories, that is the rule, a bot can easily change that. You do it or I will do it. --Foroa (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Actually I was planning to make a bot request, but I admit I was procrastinating on that. What I mean is the change should neither lose information nor create hardly readable code. Ok, I'll do the request, but since there is a discussion going on about the template, I would suggest to wait a few more days. --Zolo (talk) 14:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

strange renamingEdit

You just renamed Category:Felis manul in Category:Otocolobus manul but:

Could you help me correct all these errors?
Don't you have admin tools to do such renaming/merging ?
Thanks Liné1 (talk) 08:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, it occasionally happens that I overlook that a destination category is already existing (often a redirect), but that is no real problem as I monitor often the broken redirect categories and pages, so I correct it then a couple of hours later. I would have detected and corrected the problem you mention today anyway. Double redirects are corrected by Russbot but that can take a long time indeed.
I moved this year around 12000 categories and I delete most of the source categories, unless I judge them really useful. Only less than 0,5 % of the deleted source categories are recreated as a redirect, and some of them, I delete again because they are misleading or convert into a disambiguation. All deleted categories have a click-able destination in the edit summary. Obviously, without any tool support, that is about the best I can do. --Foroa (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the corrections.
For biology, I would recommend to avoid suppressing taxon categories. Would be better to do redirects.
For example, in the case of "Pallas' Cat", 90% of the users will look for Category:Felis manul instead of looking for Category:Otocolobus manul.
So there is a big chance they will recreate Category:Felis manul.
Best regards Liné1 (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I avoid moving taxons precisely because of this reason (and lack of expertise), and because I don't always know if the original is an alternate/old taxon name or a simple mistake. Moreover, it is not easy to identify in the hundreds of moves the few exceptional items that have to be redirected. I guess that if you check and move the taxons in this list once a week], the problem will have it quickest and most natural solution. --Foroa (talk) 14:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


Hello Foroa! I removed the text in Category:Appendicitis because there are language-links to all articles in WP available. The WP-articles are maintained and hold up to date. I think a copy of this is not neccesary. The description of the category should explain what should be in the category, if the title is not clear or unambiguous enough on its own. I don't think it should be a copy of the WP-article. See also Commons:Categories#Creating_a_new_category. What do You think? Greetings! --Hellerhoff (talk) 17:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I put the text for very good reasons. In general, it is good to have a short text of a few lines clarifying the category. For items that are important and relatively well known by most people, I insert the texts in many languages so that Chinese, Arabic, Russian people can find it relatively easily. Because most Commons users are not native English, the text allows them to verify the meaning of the item and at the same time, they are exposed to related terms in English, which should help them to find related keywords. Just ask yourself how an average German person would find something related to "Blinddarmentzündung". Just try it, and you will understand our motivation. --Foroa (talk) 17:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok. But how do You keep it up to date? --Hellerhoff (talk) 10:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Not. It is just a few lines of general overview text so it is not that important and I trust that specialists passing by will correct it when completely wrong. As I stated, what is important is the keywords, domain jargon and a general idea. --Foroa (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Question about deletionEdit


Why do you have deleted this category ?

--ComputerHotline (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Because it was redirected (It contained {{category redirect|Lunar eclipse of 2011 June 15}}). Anyway, I remember that there where more than 5 categories of that Lunar Eclipse with different names meaning the same thing so other people requested moves and merges too. --Foroa (talk) 14:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed userEdit

Hi Foroa. I noticed you gave a few people the confirmed user right. I removed that right from them as it's useless for everyone who registered for more than 4 days ago and that right is always a temporary right then. Use autopatrol instead. See also Commons:Confirmed users and en:WP:CONFIRM for more information. Kind regards, Trijnsteltalk 21:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming my impression that the bit has only a temporary effect. I just set the bit as an appreciation for the user that receives it. --Foroa (talk) 06:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I forgot something, and the question of Lotje below made me think on it. Beginning users get their contributions tagged with a red exclamation mark in my watchlist. I was under the impression that one has to set the confirmed user flag and/or autopatroller tag to disable this red exclamation mark on their contributions. As I have about 150000 items on my watchlist, I tend not to check all modifications of what I call trusted users (without red exclamation mark) when I don't have a lot of time. Could you tell me under what conditions the red exclamation mark is no longer added to the changes of a particular user ? --Foroa (talk) 06:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
COM:PATROL#Autopatrolled and above sections. -- RE rillke questions? 11:34, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Trusted userEdit

Dag Foroa, what is a Trusted user? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 06:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Dag Lotje, dat is mijn definitie, zie hierboven. --Foroa (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Deleted pagesEdit

Hi Foroa, I notice that you deleted 首页/今日图片 and 首页/今日图片. Those pages are used in the Simplified Chinese main page and serve as the zh-hans versions of Main Page/potd and Main Page/motd. Could you please undelete them? Thanks! -Mys 721tx (talk) 05:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I restored them, but I guess that they will be deleted again and again. It is normal as it is a single image and undocumented gallery in a special format. I think you better move it to the Commons: name space to avoid that sort of problems. --Foroa (talk) 07:09, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Ferme de PontyEdit

this file, and the one uploaded first in this name

Hi, thanks for your work on the category of guard stones! I changed the English article with your suggestions. Just before you did this, I was working on the farm picture itself at the same time you were working on the category. I would like to use both pictures that were uploaded to this file caled File:La ferme de Ponty.jpg. I wrote on the talk page of the uploader (who uploaded on the last day of WLM 2011 and nothing since). I left a message on the admin noticeboard because I want to create a new file in the uploader's name, but I don't know if that's possible. Do you? Jane023 (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is possible to falsify the uploader name, wait what's happening on the admin noticeboard. I pinched the guard stone cat description from the French one; semi-automatic data propagation (or pollution). --Foroa (talk) 08:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
OK thanks for the reply - I am big believer in semi-automatic data propagation (or pollution). I will let the admin request stand and work on lists for awhile - if no one can handle it, I will just split the file out manually. Happy propalution! Jane023 (talk) 09:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your assistance in seting up video user categoryEdit

Thank you for your assistance in setting up the user video category for me. I was about to pull my hair out :-) 5shot (talk) 17:09, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome and thank you for the nice media so far (the higher resolution, the better). Don't forget that video files should be categorised with the appropriate aircraft category too. I did some for you (see your watchlist). --Foroa (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again.

I have uploaded the highest resolution image files I have.

I also have added links to my videos to the various airplane categories of the planes that are in the videos.

There are 3 videos that I have had trouble convertiong and maintaining a good frame image. And there is another that I think I can improve with a remake. I will try to redo all 4 to improve their display and upload them.

This exercise of establishing galleries and making a list of videos, has left me a bit tired.

But, I will check into establishing a watch list.

As long as someone can not erase the uploaded images or videos, I feel/hope that it is then up to the members/admins to do with them as they wish, and not erase them.

I have in the past added to Wikipedia forums dealing with some "sacred cows" of gun enthusiasts, and even though I have a website on firearms, I have verbally beaten about my head and shoulders by "my betters" about the factual information and innovative ideas I have presented.

Life is what it is.

I applaud you and those who make Wikipedia/Wikipedia Commons effective and enlightening venues for those who would "click in" to expand their knowledge of our world and every day life.

Thank you again for your assistance, and the best to you and yours. 05:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Deleted catsEdit

1) Several categories were deleted. How can I achieve its textual contents? Thank you.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

2) There was a scientific conference with Russian title. There is no English title for it. What can be done then? Thanks again.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

You’ve caused dataloss. Why not use {{Move}} instead? --AVRS (talk) 17:34, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

It has been already mentioned that category names should be by preference in English and as a minimum using a Latin character set. This has been discussed many times with and opposed by PereslavlFoto. Last weeks, I deleted tens of categories in Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew and Korean. Last days, PereslavlFoto gave the example by moving himself, without any form of CFD or Move procedure many categories in French into English ones; someone will block him for that sooner or later. Long ago, I attempted proper move procedures for categories in Cyrillic script, and the only reactions I got was that the name was not correct in English, without any alternate proposal. As the concerned categories contained overall only 25 or so files, I decided that it was quicker to move them to the upper level and delete the categories than to wait several weeks for a sabotaged move procedure.
I checked all the categories on google, and none of them returned an event with the same name, so they cannot be that notable. If PereslavlFoto has made up his mind for a properly named category, tell me, and I'll put the few lines of the original data back in it. --Foroa (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Useful to avoid «argumentum ad hominem».--PereslavlFoto (talk) 18:55, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I would like to remind about the 2nd question about the scientific conference that has no English title. What can be done to avoid wrong and unofficial translations?--PereslavlFoto (talk) 11:40, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Category redirectsEdit

I was asked to translate request to leave category redirects in after category renaming in case something in/on/of city. Particular concern was about Kharkov related categories. I think it's reasonable, because some pages may refer to old categories names and not everybody know English so well, so sometimes it's much easier to follow templates then to discover what is new names are. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 14:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Since more than a year, this user creates almost weekly new and wrong categories on two levels:
  • He tried often to insert categories using the Russian name Category:Kharkiv in stead of the Ukrainian name Category:Kharkov to create a parallel Kharkov tree. This has calmed down last months.
  • He systematically creates a set of images using for example Category:Kharkiv documents and creates then straight away a redirect to the correct category (if I am lucky, I have to move many of those categories myself). So he basically don't care any naming convention, lower and upper case, and seems to want to invent his own naming system and possibly redirect it later.
Just count the Kharkov and Kharkiv redirects for your self. There might be several tens of redirects left over for him and for him only.
So the story of old names and links is all made up; he seems even to have problems to remember the categories he created the week before. So he is lucky that I don't have the time to clean his mess out, but I am determined to stop him from making it worse.
Unlike virtually unlimited redirects in wikipedia main name space, Commons:Category redirects suck, on most wikipedias, category redirects are forbidden or strictly limited so I try to limit them to really useful cases. Sorry to take care of some of the system and its maintenance. --Foroa (talk) 15:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
My question is faily near this one. What can I do if there is no correct and official English name for the event and the category? If a scientific conference is named in Russian only? What steps you may suggest (instead of killing the whole category and clearing out all the useful descriptions of the category)?--PereslavlFoto (talk) 16:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
See Commons:Village_pump#Name_of_the_category --Foroa (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Спасибо, вопрос действительно 1)в удобстве и 2)ссылках из русской, украинской и других Википедий. Цель администратора - не максимально затруднить категоризацию по времени или оставить файлы не категоризованными. Вы стираете категории, которые не заполняете... Кто-то создает категорию, наполняет её, вставляет ссылку на неё в статью - потом раз - ссылка из статьи в никуда, её вообще нет (перенаправления даже нет), и куда добавлять фото? Во что именно, поскольку получается вообще пустота? (в мега-категории "Харьков" уже скоро будет двести подкатегорий: сколько именно надо времени, чтобы найти именно ту, как её переназвали Вы - очень правильно в английском правописании и длинно, так что её вручную иногда не наберёшь - и при таком количестве не запомнишь точно). Потом, те же улицы, события, периоды и всё остальное может быть и "в" городе, и "города", и "город в" (периоде), и "Период в" (городе), и т.д. и т.п. - то есть и from, и off, in, on, and Kharkov\iv как прилагательное, и город, например, в войне, и война в городе... ОСТАВЛЯЙТЕ ПЕРЕНАПРАВЛЕНИЯ, пожалуйста, не заставляйте людей НЕ категоризировать файлы вообще. Thanks, Category:Kharkiv documents = I. --Vizu (talk) 18:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Kharkov or KharkivEdit

  •   Info English name for the capital of Russia is — Moscow. There is no such city, for its proper name is transliterated as «Moskva». Still English language does not use the proper name, it prefers English name for the place. The name «Moscow» was used five hundred years ago!
Exonyms disappear. Within 10 year, the smaller city exonyms such as Hanover, Cologne, Bruges, Naples, Ypres ... will be gone. Another 10 years for the big/famous ones Moscow, Rome, Florence, Cologne, ... Although, it is surprising how fast Bombay has been replaced. But transliterations makes it even more difficult, although I would prefer Moskva. --Foroa (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
  •   Info Same situation is with Ukrainian city, we cannot choose if the correct name is Ukrainian or Russian. We are to take some English name, and one or another names are equally stated in the article. The article clearly says: «Kharkiv or Kharkov». There is no place for any disputes: both names are equally correct in English language.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
That is another story: in Ukraine, it is logical that we prefer the Ukrainian version (of course, Russians might have another opinion as has been demonstrated several times). --Foroa (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Official municipal administration. 2012
Official police. 2012
In Kharkov City official language - Russian. All official City aministrations sites - ...kharkov. In Britannica - Kharkov or Kharkiv, in Muller Dictionary - Kharkov. Sites -
    • En-Wiki:
--Vizu (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Boeing_747_Cargomax_freighter_takes_of_at_Paine_Field_USA_5/19/2012.ogv - error msgEdit

Boeing_747_Cargomax_freighter_takes_of_at_Paine_Field_USA_5/19/2012.ogv [api-error-unknownerror]

Tried to upload file converted via Firfox and online and got api error msg.

Any suggestions??? 5shot (talk) 05:36, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

No idea, there must be something wrong with the format that it refuses to upload. --Foroa (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

On July 14, I used the upload wizard. It did not provide an explanation for the failure to upload.

Today I tried the "old form" and got an error msg that I could not use / in the file name. I had enter 5/19/2012.

A second error message said I had used a file extension ogx which was not the case, and that I had to add a file extension in the file name entry box.

So I took out the /'s, and added the file extension ogv and the upload took.

Best regards. 5shot (talk) 16:20, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Air ForceEdit

Why ? As you know, we behave according with the name in English Wikipedia. In this case, en:Turkish Air Force & en:Category:Turkish Air Force are used in English Wikipedia. Takabeg (talk) 16:21, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Not true. We avoid the thousands of categories such a Turkish singers, Turkish politicians, ... Just look at the other air forces in the by country category. Moreover, many countries got several names for their marine, air force, army in the course of history: all them fit better in a general "Air Force of ..." category. --Foroa (talk) 16:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Sitution in "Turkish Army", "Turkish Navy", "Turkish Air Force" is different from one of Turkish singers, Turkish politicians etc.. I also feel some usage of the term "Turkish" such as Turkish singers, Turkish politicians may be considered as ethnical category. So I also avoid those names. But "Turkish Army", "Turkish Navy", "Turkish Air Force" are proper nouns (names), just like Category:Hellenic Army, Category:Hellenic Navy, Category:Hellenic Air Force etc.. If we denies this fact, we will become extremists. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Turkish StarsEdit

About your this edit. Turkish Star is not the name of aircraft, but the name of the units of the Turkis Air Force. Takabeg (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Demonstration teams tend to fly mainly with one type of aircraft and make promotion for their army and for that type of aircraft. In this case, it is logical that it includes Category:Canadair NF-5. The fact that that category is there has a very good reason. --Foroa (talk) 16:32, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
In fact, the "Turkish Stars" (This is also proper noun and we cannot change it into "Stars of Turkey" :) ) use not only NF-5 but also other aircrafts. Moreover they will be able to change model of aircraft. So logically and actually, the Turkish Stars is nothing but the unit of the Turkish Air Force. Takabeg (talk) 16:54, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see, their demonstration aircraft are NF-5 (one of the few teams with supersonic aircraft), the other are support aircraft; in general demonstration teams make a reputation with a specific aircraft and change name when switching to another type of aircraft, such as en:Solo Türk. --Foroa (talk) 18:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!Edit

  The Technical Barnstar
For this edit. Yesterday I tried, but, could not find out this error in this page! Thanks for correcting! -- Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 12:29, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. You are welcome. --Foroa (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"someone will block him for that sooner or later"Edit

I am going to help you to minimize the number of non-English categories, so I heed the advice. Why do you clear out categories in any language but keep the French ones? Is there any rule stating that French language is much better than others? Thanks.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 13:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

As I stated previously, I am not completely neutral what languages are concerned. As many other contributors, the closer the used language is to Romance and Germanic languages (I happen to use the two on a daily base), the more we grasp its meaning, the less it irritates (and the more one will find it back as a title in the en:wikipedia). Slavic languages and other languages in Central and Eastern Europe are further away and more difficult to understand, so get quicker translated. But more importantly, Arabic, Chinese, Cyrillic, Greek, Hindi, ... languages; we cannot even read it nor identify keywords, hence we can not remember it, so for us, they are not usable. Moreover, I try to get category names consistent in the first place, so if there are thousands of categories starting with Eglise, I will not insert a church in the middle of it. --Foroa (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
My comments did not only apply to French categories, you just happen to rename mainly French categories. Look to the parent category of the Category:University of Applied Sciences in Cologne, Campus Gummersbach and Category:Polish presbytery of the church of Saint Louis Rouvroy you moved: it is completely inconsistent now. Category:French female football club is wrong: should be in plural and in Commons convention: Woman's association football clubs of France. Several French to English translations have been or will be reverted because it is their proper name/noun.--Foroa (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Now I see that the categories have to be in Russian when they contain the proper name/noun; why does this rule work only for French? — What about other items about inconsistency, other Commons editors have to follow you and rename the categories properly, or advice me about the proper names. Looks you are better in French than I am, so you may tell me the correct translations.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
You are right about the inconsistency, yet me or other Commons users will rename those parent categories according to your rule: «Only English».--PereslavlFoto (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
But this needs some discussion. There are two categories: «Steinmüllerallee» and «Роль и значение ботанических и дендрологических садов 2012». They both are just the same: proper names. So they both are to be translated, or the German language is a language of «High Origin»? Hard to believe this, as for me there's no «High Origin».--PereslavlFoto (talk) 17:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
And even more horrible!!! There was a category «Steinmüllerallee» within the parent category «Streets in Gummersbach». German heir in English parent was the inconsistency for years!--PereslavlFoto (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


Foroa moved page Videos by user to User:5shot/Hellcat videosEdit

(cur | prev) 10:56, 10 July 2012‎ Foroa (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (757 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Foroa moved page Videos by user to User:5shot/Hellcat videos) (undo)

Thank you for trying to help. I had planned to add my uploaded videos to an image gallery, but that may not be possible.

I am able to access all of them at this time in the Category: Videos by user:5shot. And that works for me.

So please delete the image gallery User:5shot/Hellcat videos.

It looks as though all of my images and videos are up and accessible, which was my goal.

I need to fix a few of the Cat links which i am in the process of doing.

Thanks again for your assistance. 5shot (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Reynaert geeft zich nog niet overEdit

Dag Foroa, kan je dit eens nazien en? Ik weet hier niet goed wat te doen. De afbeelding op zich vond ik zo leuk (een zoogdier dat het water opzoekt !!!) dat ik hem een paar keer gebruikte. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Ik ben geen expert en ik blijf zo ver mogelijk weg van licentie discussies, vooral omdat de meeste FOP wetgevingen in Europa de grote kunstenaars beschermen en de "kleine" kunstenaars zeer klein houden, en omdat Wikipedia er voor in hun broek doen zonder dat er een reëel gevaar is, hooguit een rechtszaakje dat 10 jaar aansleept maar dan ook het publiek debat aanzwengelt. (De duivel schijt altijd op de grootste hoop, die FOP wetgevingen stinken dus). De Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Web-vos-IMG_3075-Edit.jpg lijkt me perfect verdedigbaar als het in een publieke plaats staat of stond. --Foroa (talk) 16:32, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Maps of QuebecEdit

Hello Foroa,

Today you removed Category:Maps of Québec, but now the new category (which was previously a redirection) is attached to any category. Could you find to which categories the one you've deleted was attached ? (I think, Category:Maps of Canada and Category:Quebec, but may be more.

Sémhur (talk) 08:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Normally, I change that before moving, but I did not get the time this morning. Anyway, I check always Special:Contributions/RussBot before noon and make an update of the category redirect template to make sure that Category:Broken category redirects becomes empty again. --Foroa (talk) 10:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Sémhur (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Miejsca pamięci narodowejEdit

On pl wiki there is no article on pl:Miejsca pamięci narodowe. Could you create it? Otherwise this category here may be deleted. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Na pl wiki brakuje artykulu nt. pl:Miejsca pamięci narodowe. Moze mogblys napisac? Inaczej ta kategoria moze zostac tutaj skasowana... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Lol. There was a red cat with 16 items, long time before google translate worked acceptably. I just added a related city in Poland to it in the hope that the creator or another intelligent being from that region would pick it up and do something suitable with it. It took 2 years to pick it up to a higher level and another year to interprete really the meaning. With a bit of luck, it can be rearranged into something useful in less than a year. Wait and see. Or maybe, you can talk with the real creator of the category references; I'll bet that he is fluent in Polish. --Foroa (talk) 11:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)--Foroa (talk) 11:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Mysterious mapEdit

Hi Foroa. Can you tell me please what kind of map is this? File:Kaart boemeltje doorreis Italie.png. Perhaps it will be useful a little translation of it. I made order in all the Maps of Italy... Thank you very much. Cheers, --DenghiùComm (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, It is a CIA map on which the names are translated in Dutch but that contains what looks the train traject of a personal journey. So I deleted it with a reference to the basic source map in Dutch. --Foroa (talk) 17:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you very much again ! --DenghiùComm (talk) 08:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Caves in or ofEdit

Hello Foroa, can you look at the Category:Caves in the Basque Country and Category:Caves of the Basque Country, decide between in and of; split the category according to locations of the caves into: Navarre, Basque Autonomous Community, Northern Basque Country; and add relevant parent categories? --Havang(nl) (talk) 22:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Slag bij WestrozebekeEdit

Hallo Foroa. Ik zie dat de file Slagwestrozebeke.jpg is verwijderd omdat het een werk van Corneille (1922-2010) zou zijn. Het is echter een ontwerp van de Westrozebeekse kunstenaar Frans Corneillie. Ere wie ere toekomt :) Groetjes --Zeisterre (talk) 14:04, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

  Done Dag, bedankt en gedaan. --Foroa (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Ik was eerst van plan om het zelf te doen, maar er stond: "Deze verwijderdiscussie is nu gesloten. Gelieve geen wijzigingen te maken in dit archief". Dan heb ik het maar aan jou overgelaten. :) Bedankt... --Zeisterre (talk) 17:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Hello. Thank you for fixing the cats and adding the intros and such. I don't quite understand Category:Evergreen Park, Haikou, but all the others are a great improvement. Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Transgender Christopher Street DayEdit

What is that? --Botaurus (talk) 07:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Problem is that you want to use "Transgenialer CSD" while on commons, we try to minimise abbreviations. It took me 5 minutes to find out what CSD means. Obviously, undocumented categories will get "translated" one day. --Foroa (talk) 07:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Fife minutes? I had put Interwikis. I mean, CSD is a well known acronym, I know that even. The Problem is, however, to the other word. The name of the event is not Transgender but Transgenial. Formerly (until March 2012) named the category „Transgenialer CSD“. Thats the name of a special event in Berlin-Kreuzberg. --Botaurus (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
There where no interwikis on the original cats when renamed some while ago by Jacklee. As you can see on de:CSD, en:CSD, fr:CSD, t:CSD, CSD can mean anything. So I would suggest to move everything to „Transgenialer CSD, Berlin“ or „Transgeniale Christopher Street Day“. (use of transgeniale and transgenialer is not consistent in article and its title) --Foroa (talk) 07:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I mean interwikis in Category:Transgenialer CSD - now, of course, gone. --Botaurus (talk) 07:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC) PS. A better name is „Transgenialer CSD, Berlin“.
OK, I'll rename them all the coming days. CSD was the name of a (former) political party (Christian Social Democrats), comparable to CSU I guess. Anyway, I noticed that the references in de:Transgenialer CSD use 3 different forms of Transgenitale/r/s. --Foroa (talk) 08:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Infinitive without article is with r. --Botaurus (talk) 08:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Daykundi ProvinceEdit

The Government of Afghanistan, UNFPA, UNICEF, NPS, and great many others spell it as "Daikundi" [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14], shouldn't we do the same here. It will be alot of work to change it in the future once many cats are linked and many files added.--Officer (talk) 15:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That is often a problem with semitic languages that are transliterated. Your examples contain 3 variations: Daikundi, DaiKundi and Dai Kundi. Basically, we have 4 combinations possible with Dai/Day and Kundi/kondi without mentioning the diacritics.
Personally, I would indeed have a slight preference for Daikundi, but within a couple of weeks, a person will rename it again as you attempted. To avoid such lengthy discussions, we prefer to align to the en:wikipedia and to get such discussions over there as they have much more involved people spending time on such discussions and research. So I would suggest to propose a rename there with some of the examples that you used. It looks as if Google search seems to find most for Daikundi, but I did not get the time to analyse that in more detail; Google can be very misleading. --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I deal with Afghanistan in particular, the Wikipedia article was created under "Daykundi" by a westerner who didn't bother to check the correct spelling and that article could be moved to "Daikundi" at any time. There is nobody opposed to "Daikundi" as far as I know.--Officer (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
That sounds bitter and quite unfair. The en:wiki article has been created more than 8 years ago, probably long before the country published anything official about the "correct" spelling. As far as I can see, there is still no official "correct spelling" publication (which would avoid most of such problems); incidently, some of the official sites use that name but some others still use another name or spelling. I'll check further, propose a renaming on en:wiki and move it this week in order not to demotivate you too much. --Foroa (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:James PritchardEdit


I think we edited the page at the same time so this is why I recreated it by mistake. Can you delete it again ? thanks. Udufruduhu (talk) 13:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, you did it while I was writing this message   Udufruduhu (talk) 13:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:2012 Summer Olympics American athletesEdit

I agree with your rename of the Category:2012 Summer Olympics American athletes I created, as the new name is more accurate/clear. I chose the original name based off Category:2008 Summer Olympics American athletes. Can you please rename that category in a similar fashion?

Thanks, ThaddeusB (talk) 06:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Will do in the coming week. --Foroa (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Hatice Ener.jpgEdit

  This is your only warning; if you remove the {{speedydelete}} tag again before another administrator can review it, I will report this to Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems as you have conflict of interest. -- SLV100 (talk) 07:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I am tired of your hunting on that image/person. We have no clear "notability" criteria on Commons, the license is OK and any user has the right for some user page images. Besides, speed deletion is only allowed for some very specific cases, which is not the case here. --Foroa (talk) 07:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Then why didn't you reopen Commons:Deletion requests/File:Hatice Ener.jpg or closed it before User:Fastily did. -- SLV100 (talk) 07:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
User:Fastily did a big rush to clean out the tremendous backlog of DR's without looking too much (DR has been closed by the bot as kept). Shortly before closing User:Fastily replaced your (invalid) speedy tag by a no permission tag (which was not correct neither). I don't know of any procedure to reopen a closed deletion procedure and it is not worth to waste our time and energy for opening a formal undeletion request. --Foroa (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Next time give your reason for restoring a page in the restoration summary. -- SLV100 (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Category nameEdit

And so, what name do you suppose for the deleted category?--PereslavlFoto (talk) 12:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

For which category ? --Foroa (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
The one about scientific conference in Pereslavl. The official conference name was «Всероссийская научно-практическая конференция „Роль и значение ботанических и дендрологических садов в системе развития особо охраняемых природных территорий“». I don't want to create inofficial and crooky fan-translation, but as soon as others want to see any English variant, no matters how true it will be, I will accept your suggestion. Thank you very much.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 22:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, this title is quite long, too long for most scientific conferences. A possible name could be: "Dendrological conference on the role of botanical gardens in protected areas, Pereslavl". Sounds pretty serious, isn't ? --Foroa (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Would you please be so kind to add the contents of Category:Роль и значение ботанических и дендрологических садов 2012 (конференция) to the brand new Category:Conference on the role of arboretums in protected areas (2012)? Thank you.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 08:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  Done City or place is missing in category name. --Foroa (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Place is shown in categories. There was an important text in the category page, please add the whole contents. Thanks.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 10:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  Done This means that images from all 2012 conferences in the world with a similar name can be categorised in that category and that then, all references to Russia have to be removed. --Foroa (talk) 12:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Many thanks. What about your reason, we will see if there will be other conferences with this name. As I have already said, to be correct and unique the category has to be named with the official name not in Empire language. As soon as we follow the non-official random category name, we take a risk of sudden appearance of dozens similar conferences all over the world. Yet I hope there will be no similar ones  .--PereslavlFoto (talk) 14:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, they plan to repeat the conferences every 2 years, so in two years we can face the official English name and rename this category at last.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Region and regionEdit

Hello Foroa. For Category:Cliffs in Normandy. Yes, Normandy is a natural and historical region of France, but it contains two administrative regions: Haute-Normandie and Basse-Normandie, that are accessible in Category:Cliffs of France by region. So I am a bit embarrassed about putting "Cliffs in Normandy" in this category, and it is more visible in Category:Cliffs of France directly, I think. The word "region" is ambiguous in France ;-)... Jack ma (talk) 15:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well Jack, you are searching for problems for the natural and historical regions that are however not belonging to the "real" region categories (I never understood that; if you want a restrictive interpretation of a cat name, it should have a restrictive name)). Moreover, the cat includes the region template, adding to the confusion (why I decided to move it). I can live with that, but those categories will be changed hundreds of times. Not very good for maintenance my friend.
Category:Normandy is even not connected to France, and it should not be inregions of Europe as it does not extend (anymore/yet) outside France (The Channel Islands were part of the Duchy of Normandy).
I added it again to Provinces of France; it was so lonely. --Foroa (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I fully agree. But Category:European regions by country doesn't even include Category:Regions of France. So, yes, I would say that Normandy is a region of France and Europe if we consider those (small) islands. It is not our fault if "regions" in France have two meanings  . By the way, we have also the contrary: natural regions Category:Provence and Category:French Riviera are geographically included in the administrative region Category:Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur. Jack ma (talk) 06:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
You are right, "administrative region" is a restriction of the general word "region". So to be rigoureous: Category:Administrative regions of France should be part of Category:Regions of France, and rename all "xxx in France by region" to "xxx in France by administrative region" (according to the title displayed in the Template:Regions of France, which should be renamed, too). But I think it might be too much work, and better accept the ambiguous word "region in France"... Jack ma (talk) 06:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, life is a big compromise, and this little one, with some additional doc (as I added in the template and the cat) and some tweaking, we can easily live with. But maybe there should be a template for provinces of France. And after all, France is an easy case as most remain in one country and one language. (De Gaulle made our life a bit easier) --Foroa (talk) 09:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Funny enough, from the 27 regions of France, there are 32 in Category:Regions of France ;) --Foroa (talk) 09:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Normal : "region" does have two meanings. The word "province" is only employed for historical entities, before 1789. Natural regions are not provinces. Provence, French Riviera, ... are regions, not provinces (Normandy is both a province and a region). Jack ma (talk) 05:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Heusden schandpaal.jpgEdit


It is a few months later now, and after there was a reliable source was put on the discussion page [15] that the primary use of the borderstone was that of a borderstone, you still have not removed the protection, or renamed the file yourself. So, I urgently ask you to do either one, or preferably both. Wether or not the secondary function of a pillory remains in the name does not really matter to me now, but as the primary function is that of a borderstone, that should at least be mentioned in the filename as the primary function. The current name is simply wrong now. LeeGer (talk) 11:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

  Done. I don't consider this a historically reliable source, but lets continue. This was a lot of cabale for unsourced statements. --Foroa (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Elsa dorfmanEdit

Dag Foroa, de category moest zijn Elsa Dorfman, ik maakte een tikfout. Hoe kan ik dit rechtzetten? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Geen probleem. Plak er volgende keer {{Bad name|Elsa Dorfman}} op en het zal wel verdwijnen. --Foroa (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Dank voor je hulp! Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Gratis gedurende het Happy Hour op dinsdagavond. --Foroa (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Haha, verstrek je ook gratis hulp op woensdagmorgen? Ik heb nl. een vraag m.b.t. het self-portrait van Elsa Dorfman. Notice: This file was flagged by a bot for transfer, so also remember to check if file is usable before moving it to Commons ? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Het Happy Hour loopt soms uit als er veel ambiance is. Dat portret heb ik ook gezien, ik veronderstel dat het ooit wel eens zal landen op Commons. Geen idee wanneer, ik weet totaal niet wie wat doet aan de "overkant". Voor de artistenfotos geef ik gewoonlijk een blanke sort key zodat hun eigen portret als eerste in de categorie staat. Beste groet. --Foroa (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Bedankt! Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 06:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Soupy Sales imageEdit

Hi. Are you well-versed in copyright issues? Do you know if this image] checks out? And if you don't know enough about copyright, can you direct me to someone who does? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You better discuss that at Commons:Village pump/Copyright. --Foroa (talk) 05:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Improperly named ice age categories.Edit

You dealt with improperly named ice age categories as discussed at Category talk:Ice age. There are three more categories which this applies to which are now empty: Category:Ice age 200k-125k BP, Category:Interglacial 131k-115k BP and Category:Interglacial 300k-200k BP. Can you take a look at these? Thanks if you can help. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Please insert {{Bad name|New/better name}} and they will disappear in a while. --Foroa (talk) 10:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Renamed categoriesEdit

You recently renamed Category:Steve King to Category:Steve King (Iowa politician) and Category:Dick Taylor to Category:Dick Taylor (Iowa politician) (and without leaving a redirect). I was just wondering why you did this? I notice that they don't seem to have been "bumped" by a more prominent person. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 20:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

On Commons, we have no notion of primary interest or bumping as this is very country and culture specific (except for some capitals and national symbols). Categories are disambiguated whenever there is a real chance/case of overlap or when they are already disambiguated in one of the 270 wikipedias. Moving categories and its subcategories is much more work intensive than just moving articles, so the sooner it happens, the less work and broken links we will have. Unlike virtually unlimited redirects in wikipedia main name space, Commons:Category redirects suck, on most wikipedias, category redirects are forbidden or strictly limited (a couple of %, so I try to limit them to really useful cases (should we redirect all the 2 million categories in all spelling variations in 270 languages ? When will you be you get stuck with a saturated cat-a-lot ?). The edit summary of the deleted categories are click-able to the new category; over time they might be replaced by disambiguation categories. Sorry to take care of some of the system and its maintenance. --Foroa (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The reason I asked is that a) you didn't explain in your edit summary, b) I am going to create links to the commons cats from en.wikipedia at some point, so it'd be good to know if they're going to be stable, and c) I want to 1) make the category names as consistent as possible for Iowa politicians while 2) making them easily findable - you can't leave a hatnote on a deleted or never-created category. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 22:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I think as an outsider in this particular debate that Commons, being more a global resource, has some responsibility towards future events and contributions, and should reasonably try to cope with them- my particular focus at present is UK rivers and streams, and this is an area where duplicity is bound to occur, and it's a case of foreseeing future clashes on common names. Having said that, there are bots that can go through and fix this sort of stuff, when required. Rodhullandemu (talk) 02:08, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
To be clear, I have no objection to moving all of the Iowa politicians to a (Iowa politician) disambig if that's what we're going to do, but ... I like consistency and hatnotes (or at least redirects) if we're creating stuff at disambiguation pages. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 03:17, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
If the wikipedias refer to a gallery on Commons and the commons gallery has a hard redirect (that works and that we try to maintain) to the category, you become so to speak immune for cat name changes. After all, categories are part of a quickly evolving internal organisation (50000 new cats per month). If we make disambiguation cats, they are filled quickly with images too as few people really check the cats and even less people maintain disambiguation cats. --Foroa (talk) 05:55, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Some people that categorize a lot and have a long term view (we see that in Italy and in some country city names that are always disambiguated with the state) and that know that 20 to 50 % of the names will need to be disambiguated one day anyway, just disambiguate systematically so they never have to move and they can type in category names blindly and never have to search. But there are few such prolific editors here, most people have a short time view on that. --Foroa (talk) 06:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your replies, sorry mine took so long. After some consideration, I am going to be reverting your moves (one broke the interwiki links pointing to Category:Dick Taylor; Category:Steve King would be consistent with en.wikipedia's naming, so unlikely to be a conflict anytime soon) - if you really think the new names would be better, perhaps that is a discussion that should occur in a wider forum. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 01:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It is clear that the politics of Ohio is the centre of your world, that you are very tendentious by stating that Category:Steve King unlikely to be a conflict anytime soon, and that you are very selectively using the en:wikipedia naming argument. Again, there is no priority or primary subject on Commons, and if you want to have your own rules, you can open a {{Move}} or COM:CFD. --Foroa (talk) 06:56, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There's no need to get snippy. Seeing the disambig pages, I'm satisfied - I wasn't aware that there were other categories for people with the same name on Commons already (illustrating the usefulness of dismabig pages, btw). --Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
...and now I see that there weren't. Oh, well. Categorization to prove a point is still categorization, I suppose. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I renamed them because I stumbled over a naming that conflicted. I tend to be preventive, but most people want "their" name to be the one without disambiguation and as in your case, they try to move to the empty slot. Indeed, I made the other categories because you clearly did not want to see the problem. Prevention is not the same as proving a point. --Foroa (talk) 15:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation namingEdit

I have a question about category naming. I'm not sure on the naming conventions of categories when it comes to being specific on a location of a place. I've created Category:South Junior High School, Grand Forks, North Dakota and Category:Lanier Park (Madison, Florida). I've seen both examples being used on other categories at different times. Which is the preferred method? Having the location in parentheses or in commas like the first example? --Mjrmtg (talk) 11:47, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

A couple of years ago, there was some sort of consensus to disambiguate all places with a comma (all the where disambiguations) and to put all the what disambiguations in parenthesis. In practise, the cities/villages disambiguation follow mostly the disambiguation of the wikipedia of their language (for the stronger wikipedias). The place disambiguations for parks, streets, buildings etc... have been often reverted by the en:Wikipedia people that prefer to have identical naming as the en:wikipedia. I don't think that this is a rule on en:wikipedia, I guess a habit of many people. Anyway, one day we will harmonise that, so if you have the choice, we prefer the comma disambiguation for places. --Foroa (talk) 05:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
So Category:McKey Park (Valdosta, Georgia) should be Category:McKey Park, Valdosta, Georgia? If so, I will change it. --Mjrmtg (talk) 13:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, but in this case, one could argue about the need of the Georgia or Georgia (US State) disambiguation term. --Foroa (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Category:Blaufränkisch (cépage)Edit

I noticed that you undid some of my editing, please edit the text too as it is now inconsistent. Uleli (talk) 19:52, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Castle (Gorizia)Edit

Re this revert - what are you talking about? If there were such an Italian naming standard (which there isn't) it would have to be changed, as it contradicts the general Commons naming scheme. I implemented the rename based on Commons:Categories for discussion/Current requests/2009/07/Category:Castle (Gorizia); please respect that and re-implement it. Rd232 (talk) 13:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Since you apparently don't care enough to respond within 3 days despite being active, I can only assume you won't care about my reimplementing the rename myself. Rd232 (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
I am travelling and can only attend to the most urgent problems. There was no consensus on the discussion and there is no such Commons English naming rule; even not on the en:wiki
While I am not fond on the naming style, it has been introduced by the very productive User:G.dallorto, one of the pioneers of the Italian part of Commons (nearly 300000 edits), one of the most developed parts of Commons. As a very efficient editor, he creates many categories having tens of categories in one go, so contrary to people that add a category here and there, mainly with Hotcat, he needs a consistent style. He was one of the first editors with a long term view and did recognise that names that are always disambiguated are a bit longer to type but remain stable and predictable, so more productive.
When looking in in the current lists of Italian castles one can see that there are several main naming styles, the "castle (place)" being one of them. It just makes no sense to start changing the name of one single castle because you don't like it. I would understand that you change it to "Castello di Gorizia", as changes should converge towards a more uniform naming in its category which was clearly not the case here. So if you want to enforce rules, make sure that they are agreed upon and that they are applied consistently in their category family. --Foroa (talk) 05:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Commons:Village_pump#Category_disambiguation_style. NB I changed the name of a single castle not because "I don't like it" but because I concluded that was the outcome of the CFD discussion I closed, and it matches one of the most common naming styles of Italian castle categories, as your own CatScan link shows, plus Commons language policy. Rd232 (talk) 12:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Removing improperly named categoriesEdit

Foroa, why are you removing improperly named categories, like Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Beaumont, Belgium without a proper request for deletion or just renaming them. You might be fed up with improper names, but that does not justify this action. I will recreate this category with the proper name, but your action gives us both extra work. HenkvD (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This seems related:
Why did you revert my edit [16] on File:Anthisnes (Limont) JPG01.jpg? Is this not a Cultural heritage monument? HenkvD (talk) 15:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Same for File:AVOUERIE.01.jpg and File:Anthisnes (Limont) - Château-ferme.JPG where you added an edit summary "Fed up of reinstating proper categories". Please explain what is wrong with these? HenkvD (talk)
Because you add a cultural heritage monument category while removing its base category: each building needs to be categorised in its village or proper buildings/churches/houses/castles in xxx category. As already explained, a cultural heritage monument is a label category (as featured, quality, black & white, ... images or images/buildings from a certain year) that has nothing to do with the actual buildings/churches/houses/castles in xxx categories. I had already to correct several hundreds of such mistakes so don't complain about gives us both extra work. --Foroa (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't agree: the cultural heratiage categories are sub-categories of the village. Unlike label categories like featured, quality, black & white, year etc. Can you give an example of a label category that is a sub-category of a village/city or so?
Instead of reverting my edit you could just add the village or proper buildings/churches etc. Then I could see what you mean. By reverting you give the feeling my additions are vandalistic, or that these buldings are not monuments. I have to guess what the reason for your action was. The message Fed up of reinstating proper categories gives the opposite message like you are fed up that I add proper categories. And what is a proper category. To me a propoer category could be a category that does exist, contrary to improper: an category that does not exist for instance by a spelling error. I now inderstand you mean the Village proper, in this case Category:Anthisnes.
What about Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Beaumont, Belgium: what was the reason for deleting that? I created Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Beaumont (Hainaut). Is that OK? HenkvD (talk) 18:24, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
So according to your interpretation, all items in Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Liège should not be categorised in the other categories of Liège? A bit of consistency please. You are the only one following that logic in Belgium. As I corrected hundreds of such mistakes, it is normal that I become pissed off. (we've got already such a discussion months ago)
Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Beaumont, Belgium is a naming mistake as it should be named as its parent cat (there are 2 Beaumont in Belgium), it was empty, so I deleted it. Obviously, deleting and reverting things is a much more effective way to point to mistakes and stop the systematic misuse. --Foroa (talk) 05:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
For items in Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Liège can be placed in Category:Buildings in Liège if it is a building. If such a category does not exist: Don't put it in the parent category of that category. That is a very general rule! I don't want conflict with you so I will only add Cultural Heratige categories and don't remove the village proper categories.
As for deleting the category: You probably deleted it at the same moment I was adding images to it. HenkvD (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Не надоело стирать перенаправления?Edit

Добрый вечер. Это что - принцип такой, хотя уже многие просили именно это не делать? ХМИ переименовывался уже 6 раз. В категории "Харьков" 200 подкатегорий. Никто не в состоянии их запомнить, особенно если их постоянно - уже два года - удалять и украинизировать. Вы хотите, чтобы файлы вообще не категоризовались вручную? Пожалуйста. Что проще - набрать 4 буквы или 4 слова, причём неизвестно, каких именно слов и с каких - заглавных или маленьких - букв внутри названия категории? Куда же теперь ведёт ссылка на Коммонз из статьи "Харьковский медицинский институт"? Как обычно, в никуда. [17] --Vizu (talk) 16:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

On Commons, we avoid acronyms and abbreviations because they tend to be country and language specific. In your case, KHMI has a specific meaning in Egyptian antiquity, chemistry and here. God knows what related abbreviations will pop up when we transliterate names from Russian, Chinese, Arabic. And what to to with the Kiev/Kuban/Kurks/Khurdistan/Kuwait/Kerala/ National Medical University ? It becomes just rare that a word with less than 6 characters is unique, and anyway, a category name must state what it means, which is not the case with KHMI. --Foroa (talk) 17:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, but Kh = Kharkov). --Vizu (talk) 18:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


Hi, Foroa. I have reversed your deletion of the redirect at Category:Flood per discussion at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard#Question about category deletion. One deletion would have been fine, but repeated deletions should not take place without discussion or prior consensus. Powers (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Category naming conventionEdit

I know there is now consensus, but you might help at User talk:Mjrmtg. Thank you. -- Rillke(q?) 12:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

See #Disambiguation_naming. --Foroa (talk) 05:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussions concerning Palestine and Palestinian territoriesEdit

Mass move?Edit

Hello, Foroa, look at my move request for Category:Saint Mary's churches in France by department and its subcats. There is also Category:Saint Mary's churches in France by region and its subcats to move similarly. What is your opinion about that mass move? --Havang(nl) (talk) 10:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, but SieBot seems out of order and I have little time now. --Foroa (talk) 13:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Gerald R. Ford Museum categoriesEdit

Thanks Foroa for correcting my categorization attempts - my category names are getting ridiculously LONG! once you change a cat name do I have to do anything to clean it up or move any files? also, how can I make up categories and be sure they refer back to the Museum collections page? Bdcousineau (talk) 20:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. Files will be moved by a bot after a 6 days cool-down period. Please don't use slashes or ampersands in category names as that can create problems with some tools. Category names should be unique across the whole project, so implicitly, they have to refer to the museum. In addition, if they are categorised in a museum collections category, it becomes really clear. Please don't use title case for category names and reaad COM:OVERCAT. --Foroa (talk) 13:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
very helpful. I'll eventually need to gather everything under the umbrella name Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum (in the near future I will be uploading separate Library holdings as well - photos, documents) and that name is WAY too long. I had been hoping to use a slash to shorten it - now will not. If you or anyone has naming convention ideas; we would like to maintain separate identities for the two facilities yet connect them at the higher category levels. Bdcousineau (talk) 14:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
If you have many collections, it might be easier to use some sort of abbreviation, such as Ford PLM, FRFM, GRFPLM, ... in the subcategories (such as NARA). I couldn't find an official acronym. --Foroa (talk) 14:54, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
that is a fantastic idea. Thanks so much. I'll get to work on it. Feel free to clean up any messes I make!! Bdcousineau (talk) 12:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Cats of MacedoniaEdit

As an admin you should correct users' edits, not just delete them. You did not care to reopen another category of the statistical regions of Macedonia? About the municipalities, all files and cats are in Municipalities of Macedonia, if you do not like the name you can open another cat (not the wrong Municipalities in the Republic of Macedonia) and relocate all files and cats into the new one. I spent my whole day to rearrange the messy category Maps of the Republic of Macedonia and I expect some proper behaviour. You should have informed me or open discussion about its deletion. Regs--Никола Стоіаноски 21:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Funny situation. You move from Category:Municipalities in the Republic of Macedonia to categories with names that are not in line with the Commons naming conventions, and then complain that I put it back and make categories with proper names. --Foroa (talk) 17:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to remind you that now that you protected the cat, you have to move everything from Municipalities of the Republic of Macedonia to the Municipalities in the Republic of Macedonia. Plus, I do not vandalise, do not force me to complain. I am not here from yesterday.--Никола Стоіаноски 09:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Nazwa miejscowościEdit

Hej ! (PL) Piszę w języku polskim, bo skoro robisz zmiany na tym polu to naucz się czytać. Wszystkie nazwy miejscowości które w rzeczywistości są bez myślnika u ciebie są od dzisiaj z myślnikiem. A wystarczy pojechać do którejś z nich i zobaczyć jak wygląda tablica z nazwą miejscowości. A skoro podjąłeś już taki trud to zmieniaj też commons na wikipedii. Bo od dzisiaj się okazuje że niema spójności jedno z drugim. Pozdrawiam Adam-dalekie-pole (talk) 20:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Kyk moatje, k'verstoa der nie zot vele van.
Could you give some examples. Please note that I executed merely the requests from COM:DL. --Foroa (talk) 18:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Jerusalem stoneEdit

Hello Foroa
You have changed Jerusalem stone into Use of Jerusalem stone. The photo I have added concerned the category:Jerusalem stone and not its use. This stone of Jerusalem was given by the president of Israel to the synagogue of Tallinn for its grand opening, and is now in a box sealed before the Ark. Amitiés from France --FLLL (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

en:Jerusalem stone is a "commercial" name for a series of stone types from the region of Jerusalem (limestone, dolomite and dolomitic limestone, meleke). Not very precise and not good for a more scientific classification, why I changed it to "Use of Jerusalem stone" (and it stopped an edit war as they could not stand that it was a subcat of Meleke that seems to be an Arabic name). The stone on your photo is just another use of Jerusalem stone, but you could encapsulate it in for example Category:Jerusalem stone, Talinn. --Foroa (talk) 13:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ford MuseumEdit

Hello Foroa, do you mind changing the category "Gerald R. Ford Presidential Museum" to "Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum" - it'll help in the future as we grow and create categories of materials from each site - thanks Bdcousineau (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch Bdcousineau (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Palestine and Palestinian territoriesEdit

I created Commons:Requests for comment/Palestine and Palestinian territories so that this discussion remained at this link. I think this addresses your concern about these discussions disappearing or being moved after 2 weeks. As at the Village Pumps, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:16, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


Le agradecería que DEJE DE EDITAR las categorías en las que yo edito. Si no quiere una interminable GUERRA DE EDICIONES. Desperdiciando torpemente espacio y tiempo. La descripción de cada personaje es lo más breve y concisa para ilustrar la búsqueda. Tanta monserga y detalle está en la página del mismo personaje. Que lo redirecciona. No es necesario que ud. describa vida y milagros de ellos. --Ninrouter (talk) 23:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Removing information and interwikis is considered as vandalisme. --Foroa (talk) 04:14, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Category:Cultural heritage monuments in powiat tomaszowski (łódzki)Edit

Hi. Pls do not delete this category. It's needed in Polish here pl:Wikiprojekt:Wiki Lubi Zabytki/wykazy. 2 counties in Poland: Category:Cultural heritage monuments in powiat tomaszowski. These tables require disambig in Polish - for pl users. Thx. Przykuta[edit] 07:37, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I never delete correct disambiguation pages. --Foroa (talk) 09:09, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
This one is a redirect, so creating more confusion than it helps. Hard redirects are not allowed, and the adding of a nobot template will not help. --Foroa (talk) 09:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
What about help for Wiki Loves Monuments in Poland participants? How we could change this template with "link=commons:Category:Cultural heritage monuments in {{{nazwa}}}" Przykuta[edit] 10:09, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
"powiat tomaszowski, Lublin Voivodeship" is too hard for users of Polish. These redirects could exist only by 1 month. Przykuta[edit] 10:12, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't want to fight. Wystarczy, that structure of naming województw is nielogiczna. I wish you good day. This is not your problem, this is problem only for pl users. Przykuta[edit] 10:35, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Templates should not include topical categories. The way the Polish template is made, makes it possible to call thousands of different formats of the categories and a redirect don't solve that. Moreover, those images cannot be moved by a bot. This created significant additional maintenance troubles and bad categories last year. If this happens again this year, I will change the template as not to include those categories; we have more important things to do than to compensate for poorly designed templates. --Foroa (talk) 07:59, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Nevermind. Forget. Test this if you want :) Przykuta[edit] 08:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Chateau de LangoiranEdit

Dag Foroa, wordt deze usernaam als ongeschikt aanzien, zoja, hoe maak ik dit deze user diets? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Wel neen, er zijn duizenden user namen die "target specifiek" zijn. Commons moet nogal soepel zijn met dat, de meertaligheid maakt dat het altijd wel ergens kan wringen. --Foroa (talk) 07:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Okay, goed om te weten. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:2008 in musicEdit

Why delete a perfectly sensible redirect? Pretty much every other set of date categories is (year) in (thing) - music ones should be swapped around to conform. -mattbuck (Talk) 11:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

You are right, in the coming weeks (and when SieBot works), I should make a cleanup in Category:2008 by topic. --Foroa (talk) 15:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, only me again, weet jij waarom bepaalde users de bepaalde medeklinkers zo vaak herhalen? Wordt dat als vandalisme aanzien en worden dergelijke files in de regel gemoved? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Dat is een methode als een ander om dubbele namen te vermijden, dus daar ga ik mij niet mee vermoeien. Wat meer zorgwekkend is het gebrek aan info in de beelden. --Foroa (talk) 15:59, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Government buildings in Washington, D.C.Edit

I created the category Government buildings in Washington, D.C. before I realized there was the category Buildings of the Washington, D.C. government. The one I created is in line with the state categories like Government buildings in Ohio, for instance. I would never have thought of making Buildings of the Ohio government. The original category Buildings of the Washington, D.C. government just sounds grammatically incorrect. What do you think? Do you like the original category? --Mjrmtg (talk) 12:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, they have all a different meaning: you forgot the United States government buildings: Category:Buildings of the United States government in Washington, D.C.. As fas as I understand, Government buildings contain, well, people doing some sort of government. Why buildings of the government contain buildings owned/controlled by the government, but don't necessarily make part of the government (post, police, ...). But that is only my interpretation. The most important is of course that you agree about the meaning and document it properly. --Foroa (talk) 12:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Using Government buildings in Washington, D.C., it looks as if you followed indeed the logic in the other states. --Foroa (talk) 12:28, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

ПН фотоEdit

Removing user categories of ПН фото you prevent consistent upload and processing of the photo collection of «Pereslavl Week» newspaper. Please stop this. The policy COM:USER says, «Users are welcome to create user-specific categories». Thank you.--Переславская неделя (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

  1. I stumbled upon it because I had to categorise an uncategorized category Category:Images by Переславская неделя.
  2. I deleted Category:ПН фото 3 шаг — есть описание фотографии, Category:ПН фото 5 шаг — есть цифровая реставрация с EXIF данными and Category:ПН фото 1 шаг — черновик для описания because they were empty AND because they should be in English and certainly not in Cyrillic, as you know very well and as you attempted so many times.
  3. You persisted in recreating them again and again. I emptied them, deleted and protected them. As I will do soon with the other non-English ones too . --Foroa (talk) 13:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. But those are the user categories, they exist only because of my user needs, so I prefer them to be in my native language. The other users who may append any descriptive data are Russian-speakers also, and the Russian names will be easier for them to work. What about the empty ones, they will be empty from time to time, for those 5 categories contain a technology process of preparing the image collection. 1st is worst quality upload with simple template page, 2nd is for those with categories or geocode, 3rd keeps the images with description, 4th has the date and photographer name, 5th has the digitally restored full quality images. So I ask you to restore the categories.--Переславская неделя (talk) 13:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Needless to say those categories are not for Commons users, and also not for English-speakers. They are to help local people to check the workflow and to fix the images step by step. They show, how many images have this or that problem. Id est, with English names those categories become useless and inconvenient. So I ask you to restore the categories.--Переславская неделя (talk) 19:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Foroa! Please don't delete these user's categories - it's part of partnership process - see Commons:Pereslavl Week. These by-step category will be placed in the "Переславская неделя"'s userspace and don't hopple to other Commons users and visitors. Perhaps they should be recalled with prefix "Images by Переславская неделя", as Category:Images by Переславская неделя (5 шаг — есть цифровая реставрация с EXIF данными) etc.? So they will be less irritating of administrative view? Target categories will be named in English, by common rules.--Kaganer (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Kaganer, I've undeleted them for the time being, but we can't have all sorts of different rules for all sorts of different cases. Anyway, a person that stumbles on such cats has not the slightest idea what they mean (and they are not not categorised in a context so it is even more difficult to guess). I would suggest to call them "Pereslavl Week temp step n" or so; I cannot understand why that would not be easier than to mix cats in English and Cyrillic or even mixed ones. After all, in the end, all images need one or more English cats, so you are just making your live more difficult. --Foroa (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Needless to say those categories are not for Commons users, and also not for English-speakers. For example, the category Category:ПН фото 3 шаг — есть описание фотографии keeps the images whose descriptions have to be checked offline with the photographer (employee).--Переславская неделя (talk) 16:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Let's be serious: one cannot create a global system where all people work on all images and categories (eg File:Pn-mizulina-e-b-1.jpg), while at the same time, we are telling people: some categories are none of your business. We cannot create little islands in isolation. --Foroa (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
User categories are hidden, so they are «none of your business» for many Commons users.--Переславская неделя (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I need to know, what images don't have a photographer name, what are not descripted well, what have not enough categories. I need to know their number.
I need a link to the category to be sent to some photographer in other city, the ex-employee, for he could check it.
I need a category I can print on the paper to take with me to offline photographer to get his advice.
How can I?--Переславская неделя (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Many thanks, Foroa.--Переславская неделя (talk) 18:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree, though;) I see that the current abilities of our wiki environment don't allow to make a truly multilingual category tree. And there is no other solution than the current "English-centric" status. But this is largely invalidates the mechanism of the categories tree (graph) as a structuring (ordering) tool, making it useless for non-English readers / viewers / re-users. So if I see that there is a user, occupied a some useful work, and he believes that it is more convenient to do this work in his little Cyriliic's garden, I am for the help of this person, and not to obstruct (if this in the his userspase only ;-). Be humanely, since our wiki so iron;) --Kaganer (talk) 19:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I guess that you know the history of the Tower of Babel; it needed such a compromise. The user tries since many years to create Cyrillic categories. And you don't really help your Russian users because somewhere between the 2 million categories, there are a couple of Russian ones. Categories in user space are still categories and get intertwined with the main space anyway. And what's more humane: tolerating a certain percentage of Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Arabic, ... category islands that are only understood each by a small fraction of our community or just applying a rule so that we are all on a equal feet ? --Foroa (talk) 06:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, "don't really help your Russian users", but but there is a really help to this individual user for his useful work. Personally, I believe that there are no rational reasons for these categories could not be called in English. Now I have added English descriptions that are partially solve the "language isolation" problem. Yes, it is a palliative, but our life is made of them, and Procrustes was wrong ;)--Kaganer (talk) 10:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Eschenbach LU versusus Category:Eschenbach, LucerneEdit

Eschenbach Ortstafel

Ich bitte Dich hier keinen Edi-war bezüglich der Kategorie Eschenbach LU zu veranstalten. Eschenbach LU' ist die offizielle amtliche Schreibweise des Ortsnamens. - Please do not change category name from Eschenbach LU (official naming of the municipality) into Eschenbach, Lucerne (and if than not without change alle interwikilinks in all language versions and without to place al subcategories and pictures to the renamed category!DidiWeidmann (talk) 14:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but an average user does not know the offizielle amtliche Schreibweise des Ortsnamens, as they are not used in Italy neither as they have a similar "coding style". On Commons, we precisely avoid abbreviations and "codes" to make it more universal. Just look at the interwikis, and you will see that this is not an international standard. Effective moves follows later by RussBot or SieBot when it is fixed. It is a real pitty that you keep wasting your time by moving it from a bad name Category:Eschenbach, LU to another bad name. --Foroa (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Ich kann der Argumentation nur teilweise beipflichten, ist aber eigentlich nicht von so grosser Wichtigkeit. Bitte einfach bedenken: "Eschenbach, Lucerne" ist keineswegs "universal" sondern lediglich Englisch: In Eschenbach, spricht man aber Deutsch, also wenn schon "Eschenbach, Luzern". Dann liegt Eschenbach nicht in Italien, folglich macht es keinen Sinn Italien als Vergleich herzuholen. In der Schweiz ist die Schreibweise "Eschanbach LU" (zur Unterscheidung von Eschenbach SG) absolut gebräuchlich, diese Bezeichnungen finden sind in sämtlichen gebräuchlichen Listen, Handbüchern und sogar auf Landkarten. Eigentlich ist mir aber egal, wie die Kategorie heisst: Wichtig ist einfach, dass dann auch alle Bilder in die neue Kategorie kommen und vor allem auch alle Interwiki-Links (sämtliche nationalsprachlichen Artikel verweisen aktuell auf Eschenbach LU) angepasst werden. Dass die Kategorie nicht "Eschenbach, LU" heissen soll, darüber sind wir uns jedoch einig (diese Schreibweise entspricht nicht der Usanz: entweder Eschenbach LU oder Eschenbach (LU) - meientwegen Eschenbach, Luzern oder halt Englisch Eschenbach, Lucerne [oder in Esperanto: Eschenbach, Lucerno (wenn man dann wirklich universal sein möchte)]! [Du kannst mir auf Englisch oder Niederländisch antworten, mir fällt es einfach leichter auf Deutsch zu schreiben, Du verstehst ja Deutsch, nicht wahr.]DidiWeidmann (talk) 15:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I understand Deutsch, no need for Google translate or similar. My mother language is West Flemish, but I guess that here too, English might be a better compromise. Well, the Chinese, Arabic speaking, Japanese, Russians, Greeks, Armenians ... they all have their own official naming and writing rules and still, we write it completely differently. That's why there is some (imperfect) compromise needed for a worldwide system to work, and it happens to be English ...
Using {{Commonscat}} in other wikipedias is a very bad practise as naming is often wrong and internal categorisation and names change often (unavoidable with nearly one new Commons category per minute or 580000 per year). Moreover, we have no tools to check and modify incoming links; verifying outgoing links (on the wikipedia side) is much easier by bot, but I believe that only the German wikipedia does that (sometimes ?). I renamed this year 12000 to 15000 categories, so it it clear that we cannot change them in the about 700 wikimedia clients (270 wikipedias). If a category is deleted after a move, there is a clickable destination in the deletion edit summary.
If you would use {{Commons|Eschenbach LU}} on the wikipedias, they would fall on Eschenbach LU, which is a working hard redirect and that allows us to change 20 times the category names: just by changing the redirect, all wikipedias are OK. Don't understand why people don't seem to understand that. --Foroa (talk) 16:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

La pipe à l'organe de Saint Pierre …Edit

Bonjour Foroa.
I write fist in my native language.
Tu as transformé la "Category:Orgue, église Saint-Pierre, Nant" en "Category:Pipe organ of église Saint-Pierre, Nant" au nom de convention de dénomination. Mais puisque la règle est semble-t-il de nommer en anglais, pourquoi ne va-t-on pas au bout de la logique ? A tout prendre me paraît plus rationnel de renommer la catégorie en quelque chose comme "Category:Pipe organ of St.Peter's church in Nant" ?
Merci pour ton travail d'administrateur.
And now I beg your pardon for my poor english, but i try …
You turned the "Category:Orgue, église Saint-Pierre, Nant" to "Category:Pipe organ of église Saint-Pierre, Nant" because of naming convention. But as the right rule is all naming is in English, why will we not at the end of logic? All in all, it seems better to rename the category to something like "Category: Pipe organ of St.Peter's church in Nant?"
Thank you for your work as an administrator
Daniel Villafruela (talk) 08:03, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Pipe organ of église Saint-Pierre, Nant est une exercise difficile. D'abord il faudrait que les catégories soient en anglais, mais on tolère les (soit disants) noms propres en français. Un règle plus prioritaire me semble t'il est que les sous-catégories ont le même nommage que leur parent. Donc au lieu de basculer vers un nom de l'église en anglais (ce qui ne me semble pas réaliste), on fait le cross over dans la catégorie. La perfection est un mot des dieux ;) --Foroa (talk) 06:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Kurdish nameEdit

Sorry,my english not good. I am a Kurdish user and benefactor for wikipedia.There is a free platform for all people.The man whose nick is Takabeg changes my categories according to formel ideologi of the goverment. If i cant make categories according to my area(my publice) realties, there is no neat to stay here.So if everbody write their ideas comments according to formel ideologi of countries,it ca not be said that wikipedia is free.Good evening--Dûrzan (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

See Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/05/Category:Geography of Kurdistan and read the en:Tower of Babel. This has nothing to do with ideology: Wiki software can handle only categories with one single name. Good night too. --Foroa (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

OK.There is not free platform.You can blocked to me!...And you are close Kurdish wikipedia...--Dûrzan (talk) 18:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


[18], nog een paar honderd edits te gaan ;-) Multichill (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Goed zo. {{Zabytek}} is ook zo een loeder. --Foroa (talk) 18:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Nog zo'n mooie {{Monument istoric}}. Multichill (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Porte de Hal/Hallepoort - BrusselEdit

Dag Foroa, er bestaat ook een Hallepoort in Brugge, zou dit dan voor verwarring zorgen? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Nog nooit gehoord van een Hallepoort in Brugge, maar er is hoedanook niet veel kans dat ze er een nederlands-franse naam aan geven. Maar inderdaad, het niet disambigueren is een ziekte van kortzichtige mensen op Commons. En wij maar moven ... --Foroa (talk) 08:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Humphreys AvenueEdit


There is only "Humphreys Avenue" in Hong Kong. There is no "Humphrey's Avenue".

dltl2010 10 Sept 2012

There are tens of Humpreys and Humphrey's Avenues around the world. --Foroa (talk) 08:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


Hi, Foroa. What's your opinion on Category talk:Bridge near Limyra & Category talk:Bridge near Kemer. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 21:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

A nice example of how English proper names are fabricated and changed all the time. Answered on the talk page. --Foroa (talk) 10:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

redirect categoriesEdit

Hi Foroa, I have created redirect categories for the original (local) names of the departments of Uruguay to their English names. The last one was for Category:Departamento de Treinta y Tres redirecting Category:Treinta y Tres Department. I got the message that you had deleted this category a couple of weeks ago, so I wanted you to know I did such redirects for all the departments. Let me know (on my talk page, please) if there is a problem. Hoverfish (talk) 17:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

See #Category_redirects and Commons:Category redirects suck. We have 2.2 million categories and wikipedias in 270 languages; if we make redirects for all languages, possibilities and punctuations, we will end up in the billions of categories. Category redirects don't work very well and create all sorts of problems. Why we try to limit it to real name variations. Your departemento case is a border case, but users should adapt anyway for such other names. This time, I let it go, but I will remove such new "systematic" cases. I would suggest to make galleries that use hard redirects to categories: those work very well. --Foroa (talk) 11:10, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok, good to know about this problem, thanks. My thinking was that an Uruguayan contributor is bound to categorize his image by the local name, which already happened in one department and we had one in Spanish and all the rest in English. Even so, I'm not sure how much help what I did would be. In any case I won't be doing any more such cat/redirects. Cheers. Hoverfish (talk) 01:16, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't make your self illusions: a country quickly evolves to many thousands of categories and there is no way to maintain a parallel category redirect structure. It is more important to document the categories properly as I did this morning and link them back and forth with the wikipedias as I did; at least, that way people will find their things in their language. --Foroa (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


Hello Foroa,
About Category:Apterygidae, what do you prefer:

  1. Text explaining that there is only one genus + {{Category redirect}} to the genus
  2. Text explaining that there is only one genus, no {{Category redirect}} + the genus in this category

The current situation is not correct (it does no contain the genus).
Personally I have not much preference, I just don't like the third option

  1. no text + {{Category redirect}} to the genus

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 11:23, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Redirected categories should not be categorised themselves - See text in {{Category redirect}}. You can have all the text in it you want but no links, otherwise it pops up with all sorts of database reports. --Foroa (talk) 10:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I did not see the text you are talking about, even if I do agree (except for the hidden categories maybee)
Look at the current state of Category:Apterygidae. What is wrong with it ?
Cheers Liné1 (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
There must be something wrong with my eyes: I have the impression that Category:Apterygidae is categorised in Category:Taxon categories and Category:Families of Aves. Experience shows that when people see such a "blue" category somewhere, they just build subcategories on it without really looking at the inside. --Foroa (talk) 11:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, right, these 2 are hidden categories (not everybody can see them + when displayed they are smaller than normal cat). But I see your point.
These categories are automatically added by the {{Taxonavigation}}.
I really don't know how to proceed.
Cheers Liné1 (talk) 13:40, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
An additional redirect parameter for the {{Taxonavigation}} template could be requested. When redirect would be set to 1, the categories Category:Taxon categories and Category:Families of Aves should not be included anymore. May seem unefficient, but there is currently no way of checking whether a given page is included in a given category (Category:Apterygidae in Category:Category redirects). --Gikü (talk) 22:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that first, you have to define what you want. As I understand it, on the one hand, you want those taxon not to be included in the category system, on the other hand, you want it to be fully documented and listed in some of the taxon lists. That is a recipe for mix-up as you document and recognise formally the taxon, so my experience is that when people see such a construct, they will often remove the redirect. Anyway, apart from the problems caused by categorised redirects, I think that such documentation should be created at the gallery level. --Foroa (talk) 05:37, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

You misjudge the situation. Category:Apterygidae is a perfectly valid family. User:FunkMonk transformed it into a redirect because it is a en:Monotypic taxon. But as explained User:FunkMonk, we should explain/document/justify our redirect. (Wikipedia is so critizized for its lack of sources)
About documentation being at gallery level, I hope you don't want to wake the ever-lasting war galleries vs articles. There are very few family articles, and none at order or class level.
So I think that I will implement the Gikü's idea and add a parameter to {{Axonavigation}}
Best regards Liné1 (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Berlin-Edit

Hi, could you please be somewhat more careful with categories under "Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Berlin-". The categories under this tree are complete - so please don't create new ones here. Tnx, --Alexrk2 (talk) 14:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not inventing those categories, just spotting red categories that might remain unnoticed for months. I put them on a highly visible place so that you can discuss with the uploader and/or move them to the right place. If you don't wont to see the problem, I can just redirect them to Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Germany, so someone else will have to untangle the bunch of problems. Please note that categories cannot be speedy deleted when they are not empty. --Foroa (talk) 05:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Obviously those red categories occurred due to erroneous entries in the WLM upload wizzard. It doesn't make any sense to have a category like "Cultural heritage monuments in Berlin-09050277" or "Cultural heritage monuments in Berlin-Charlottenburg-Wilmersdor" - they are just irritating. IMO, creating those nonsensical categories is worse then just leave them as red links. I guess it is up to the WLM folks to clean all this mess up at the end of september. --Alexrk2 (talk) 11:09, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Uploads van User:Val chokoEdit

Dag Foroa, User:Val choko reageerde op mijn opmerking via email:

Bonjour, Je sais qu'il y a des duplicate, mais je ne comprends pas comment faire pour les supprimer. Je voulais participer au concours wikilovesmonuments, mais quand j'ai uploadé mes photos dans un premier temps, je n'ai pas trouvé comment faire le lien avec wikilovesmonuments. Je me suis rendue compte par la suite que je ne les avais pas uploadées au bon endroit. Désolée !

Les photos à supprimer sont:

6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale.JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2278-00320 Maison communale de Woluwe-Saint-Lambert.JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (13).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (11).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (9).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (8).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (10).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (6).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (4).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+367)‎ . . N File:2043-00890 Parc du Cinquantenaire - Arcade centrale (2).JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:58 (diff | hist) . . (+349)‎ . . N File:2043-00610 Parc du Cinquantenaire.JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard) (dernière)
6 septembre 2012 à 16:14 (diff | hist) . . (+374)‎ . . N File:2043-00030 Cathédrale Saints-Michel et Gudule.JPG ‎ (User created page with UploadWizard)

Ik weet niet goed hoe hier mee om te gaan (vanwege de andere files die dan zouden overblijven). Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 07:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Ik vind geen identieke beelden (Commons toont dat in een van de veldjes), maar anders {{Duplicate}} voor vrijwel identieke beelden, {{Superseded}} voor vrijwel identieke beelden met betere resolutie of kleuren. --Foroa (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

People by occupation by alphabetEdit

I don't understand what you mean. There has long been a topical discussion (this one) regarding this issue and there was no objection. This category is going to be deleted; Furthermore "Category:People by occupation by alphabet" is not a category by alphabet if you can understand the essence of "Categories by alphabet". Orrlingtalk 07:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I think that I might be able to understand it. I agreed with the Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2012/08/Category:Categories_by_alphabet and renamed hundreds of "xxx by alphabet" categories, mainly to "xxx by name" categories. Category:People by occupation by alphabet has its purpose, but we need to find a suitable name. Anyway, your bold move to stick a {{Bad name|People by occupation}} on it is not acceptable: this is only for empty categories. --Foroa (talk) 08:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
How come? I didn't think the "Badname" tag is for empty categories. I might have not understood the usage of it then. The category we discuss about needs to evaporate, no "suitable" solution other than this that I know. Orrlingtalk 09:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

en:Category:Madrasas in TurkeyEdit

Hi, I strongly recommend you not to categorize by your own POV, we'd better categorize per English Wikipedia. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 08:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I strongly recommend you not to change category names in the middle of a category tree; use a COM:CFD instead, especially for modifications that concern more countries or regions. See Commons:Categories for discussion/Current requests/2009/09/Category:Madrassas. Commons is much more international and multi-language oriented than en:wikipedia, why we use often other names. --Foroa (talk) 08:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


thanks, you are faster in deleting than me in asking. :-) --Herzi Pinki (talk) 06:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I knew it was not right, but it contained a number of images on middle age reenactements in Scotland. Thanks for redirecting it, but it makes no sense to send such images to ... the Middle Ages ... --Foroa (talk) 06:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, at that point there was only one image regarding reenactment, but the German name nevertheless was questionable for that. All the others I did not move, but deleted only Category:Mittelalterlich. I prefer to use the redirect template as opposed to the bad name template, which gives me ugly error messages that I should not use it. (the bad name template is not appropriate when you are only file mover). So I was going to ask you to delete it (as I did not fully understand your purpose of that category). --Herzi Pinki (talk) 09:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Post boxes in the United Kingdom (all files)Edit

Sorry, the absence of an edit summary makes it difficult to understand why you have undeleted this category. Rodhullandemu (talk) 14:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Categories can only be deleted when empty. We do all sorts of efforts to maintain and keep Special:WantedCategories as small as possible, so obviously, we will undelete categories that are not empty. --Foroa (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
That strikes me to be an excellent way of subverting a deletion debate just by keeping it populated. But this seems to be a good case for renaming the category so it is obviously a temporary user category such as my Category:WMTemp, which I work on when I have time. Rodhullandemu (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Look, if you decide to delete a category, you have to empty it, not just hide it by deleting its container description. Moving it to anotehr cat is just displacing the problem. --Foroa (talk) 15:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Robo-admin strikes again: Deleting something without cleaning up the mess. Multichill (talk) 15:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Buildings in FooEdit

Hello, Foroa! I saw that some categories on countries had over 30 categories. That's why I started to streamline the category tree structure. Among those changs, I tried to include all "Category:Buildings in Foo" in "Category:Structures in Foo", "Category:Archtecture in Foo" and/or "Category:Geography in Foo". Do you disagree with the changes? Please let me know so we solve the issue. Good bye! --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I reinserted Category:Buildings in xxx to its base category Category:xxx; don't expect people to find buildings via the weird geography, or culture or architecture building cats.

The ideal structure depends from what angle you look at the category tree. If you look at the conceptual level, one has to go via country - culture - architecture - structures to arrive at a building. If you look from the organisation perspective, then you have to go via country - city - quarters - streets/squares before you come to your building. If you look from the guy that brings a new picture (mostly of buildings, such as "wiki loves monuments"), you want city - buildings, no more. And yes, we have to think bottom up too. Many, if not most, towns and cities start with a first structural category "Buildings in ...". This is often the trigger for further category structure developments, why I always place it at the parent level in a systematic way at all levels. People need to see a consistent model that they can clone easily. You don't want people to create for each town a art, culture, architecture, structure or geography category before they can start building categories. If Commons can still grow without too much pain (more than 2.24 million cats), it is thanks to category consistency and the fact that people can easily clone structures. --Foroa (talk) 07:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that not every location needs subcategories for structures or culture. In that case, you can put the category in question in the next highest categories.
I think is that to allow Commons grow without too much pain, each category must have as little direct subcategories as possible, so users can navigate more easily. That's why I did the move. Buuildings are objects / things located in some place in a country. That counts as geography to me. And since buildings are related to architecture, there's the second way to find them. --NaBUru38 (talk) 02:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
As I stated, the root category is the most important and most needed cat for buildings and I doubt very much that people will search buildings in geography. And in many countries, architecture is, quite rightly, not in the root cat. --Foroa (talk) 04:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Category move helpEdit

Hi, I meant to create Category:Temples in Thanjavur district and move files from Category:Temples of Kumbakonam to that, but in a brain dead moment, made a mistake and created Category:Temples in Kumbakonam district. Can you help rename Category:Temples in Kumbakonam district to Category:Temples in Thanjavur district? (I'm guessing you have a script to do that, if not, I can do it manually) Thank you. —SpacemanSpiff 15:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Two ancient bridgesEdit


Dag Foroa, any idea or suggestion how this file could be renamed? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 06:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Dag Lotje, as usual, the name means nothing but is good enough for me; the cats and description are important. The advantage of keeping such a generic name is that no one else can take it ... --Foroa (talk) 08:46, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, that is very very leerrijk. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 09:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Ernoemn van ofbeeldiengnEdit

Dag Foroa, voe nog e ki wêere te kêern ip dat érnoemn van ofbeeldiengen gelik ierbovn, peizje da zo'en fotoatjie moed érnoemd wordn of nie? En o je peizt van nie, worom nie? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 09:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Dat is inderdaad een mogelijke naam. --Foroa (talk) 20:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Cultural heritage monuments in India and 'useless' uploader-generated 'red/empty' categoriesEdit

Hi Foroa, please avoid to establish 'artificial categories' as p.e. Category:India-gujarat-kutch - ranotsav, Category:S-AP-174, Category:N-MP-94, Category:Category:Brahmapurisvara Temple Brahmadesam etc.etc.etc. being 'sub-categories' of Category:Cultural heritage monuments in India.

It's (much more) additional work to re-categorize within the present 'Wikimedia loves monuments contest', as some engaged (as you should know) Wikimedians try to categorize those media more accurately, and btw those media usually are already categorized (at least) as hidden 'India loves ...'.

i allow to recommend to 'remove' those media from such by 'uploader-generated' (red/empty) miss-leading categories, thanks and regards, Roland 19:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Every 3 days, we try to clean out Special:WantedCategories and do a first level categorisation/dispatching so that new productive productive uploaders can be quickly informed about incorrect or more complete categorisation. This looks the most efficient method for all of us, especially during "wiki loves monuments" campaigns with a lot of people that are new to Commons. --Foroa (talk) 20:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

WLM 2012Edit

Dag Foroa, weet jij hier raad mee? Jean-Pol GRANDMONT lijkt haast te hebben en ik kan hem jammer genoeg niet helpen vrees ik. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 12:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Ik heb daar gereageerd, het is {{Onroerend erfgoed|89959}}. Multichill (talk) 13:35, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Ja, bedankt. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Statues of Francis of Assisi in IndiaEdit

[by Google Translator]

♦♦♦ Please respond on my page ♦♦♦

Peace and good!

1 Please recreate Category:Statues of Francis of Assisi in India

2 Some Saint Francis of Assisi churches in India at Wikipedia in English: - Church of St. Francis of Assisi - St. Francis Church, Kochi - Church of St. Francis of Assisi, Farangipet - Bandra West: St.Francis of Assisi (in List of parishes of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Bombay).

2.1 Each of these churches usually have at least a statue of its patron saint.

2.2 Other Franciscan churches also often have statues of Francis of Assisi.

2.3 Other churches may also have statues of St. Francis. eg: Category: Puducherry Immaculate Conception Cathedral with File:Francis of assisi Pondy cathedral.jpg Eugenio Hansen, OFS (talk) 08:34, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Statues of Francis of Assisi in India restored, Category:Saint Francis of Assisi churches in India does exist. They will disappear when they are not populated (User Roland zh). --Foroa (talk) 08:44, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks!

The list of churches in India was to demonstrate that category Statues has the potential to receive more than one file. Eugenio Hansen, OFS (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Draper's Hall, CoventryEdit

Maybe I've spent too long on enwiki, but surely there's benefit in preserving the link between the old title and the new, especially as it's a fairly predictable mistake? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

There is clickeable link in the edit summary. Category redirects don't work like article redirects, why we have relatively few for real important redirects (say 1 to 3 %). There are very few on en:wiki En:Category:Wikipedia soft redirected categories and on several (if not most) wikipedias, they are even forbidden. See #redirect categories. If we have to make redirects for alls sorts of spelling variations and for the 270 supported languages for the 2.3 million of categories, the system becomes completely unmanageable and cat & search tools unusable. --Foroa (talk) 10:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I know they don't work the same way as article redirects, but I still think the template is useful. Your argument is a good one against creating endless redirects for every possibility, but I don't think it's a good one for deleting redirects after the category's contents have been moved elsewhere—there may be incoming links to the old title or people may expect it to be there. Yes, there's a clickable link in the log, but I still think the template is more useful, certainly in cases where the only difference in spelling is the placement of an apostrophe. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:42, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Disagree, even in the main name space in en:wikipedia there is no such redirect, so it cannot be needed that badly. And I would prefer to have incoming links to fall on a deleted category with clickable link; people should be more inclined to correct the link. --Foroa (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Funckstraße 13Edit

Der Name "Funckstraße 13" ist der offizielle Name für das Bauwerk in der Denkmalliste der Stadt Wuppertal, die von der unteren Denkmalbehörde herausgegaben ist. Villa Wolff ist der Name der in Architekturführern geschrieben ist. Also ist hier ein Categorie-redirct sinnvoll und notwendig. --Atamari (talk) 11:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

There are several Funckstraße in the world, so I guess that you mean that the offical name of the building is "Funckstraße 13, Wuppertal". They will not name buildings like that or "Kirchstraße 5" or "Hauptbahn 3" I guess. If you want to make it easier to find the item, I would suggest to document the categories properly in the first place and secondly use a gallery to category redirects: at least those redirects work instantly.
Category redirects are not the same as article redirects, see the section above; there is a good chance that category redirects are forbidden or very much restricted on the German Wikipedia.
I have seen that you created Category:Zum Bilstein: I can understand that Wuppertal is for you the centre of the world, but this is not the case for all of us; those will be changed sooner or later, nnd several other streets in Category:Streets in Wuppertal by name. --Foroa (talk) 12:14, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
There are several "Villa Wolff", so this name will be changed eventually too. --Foroa (talk) 12:31, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Coopérative vinicole in France by departmentEdit


Je suis en train de mettre en place les catégories de différentes coopératives agricoles (environ 15 différentes rien qu'en France). Pourriez vous être un peu patient avant de supprimer ou modifier les catégories. Certains de ses batiements sont des monuments classés. Je ne suis pas totalement novice dans la pratique, même s'il peu y avoir une ou deux corrections à faire. La category:coopérative vinicole in Luxembourg est crée pour le bâtiment lui-même (qui ne sera pas le seul !), même s'il il est aussi lié à la viticulture au Luxembourg ! Je serais obliger de la recréée lors de l'ajout de la deuxième photo, sauf si vous annulez votre suppression. Marianne Casamance (talk) 05:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Bonjour, et merci pour vos efforts. Si vous regardez dans Category:Categories of France by department, vous allez constater que les categories sont toujours en pluriel et en anglais. Je n'ai que modifié le "top-level" pour éviter que vous créez des branches parallèles: pourquoi j'ai effacé Category:Coopérative by country parcequ'il existe Category:Cooperatives by country, ensuite j'ai crée Category:Cooperatives in France. Si vous voulez, je peux instruire le bot (quand il sera réparé) pour renommer vos catégories correctement, bien que vous pouvez aussi faire la demande sur COM:DL.
Il faudrait aussi trouver un nom de "root" pour fr:Oléiculture ou it:Olivicoltura, et les subcatégories qui marche bien pour tous les pays et langues concernés, et il y en a pas mal. --Foroa (talk) 06:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Re: Heritage sites in Israel without clear descriptionEdit

Hi Foroa,

Do you mean that they have no clear description in English? Because all those photos have a description (and an ID which can be used to find out the site's name).

In any case, it appears that all those photos are from the site Old City of Beit She'an.

Ynhockey (talk) 15:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, in Category:Heritage sites in Israel without clear description, there where files with only a Hebrew description and a file name without meaning (style file:IMAG0476.jpg), which makes it hard to find the proper categories. After some detective work on the he:wiki, I found out that they should belong to category:Scythopolis, and a more detailed heritage cat has been added by a bot, so people could give it a proper file name. Is there any list of the Israeli heritage buildings in English somewhere ? --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
It concerned mostly contributions of Special:Contributions/Adi_diamant. --Foroa (talk) 06:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


Add this code <center>{{Municipalities of Macedonia|prefix=:Category:|suffix=}}</center> to this category. You locked the category.--Никола Стоіаноски 12:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Municipalities in the Republic of Macedonia is the correct name corresponding to Commons naming conventions. It is locked against the numerous attempts to rename it. --Foroa (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
However, put the code, the template should be shown in the cat.--Никола Стоіаноски 18:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand what you mean, but it is unlocked by now. --Foroa (talk) 05:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Renaming categories in NarcissusEdit

I agree with you that the cultivar groups of Narcissus need to be renamed. However I would suggest you follow the practice here and use the scientific name first... as "Narcissus Division 8." or similar. Please check under Rosa, Paeonia, Clematis etc. Uleli (talk) 16:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to give a better name to categories in Category:Narcissus cultivars. One can hardly say that Category:Division 2 is a clear name, I thought it concerned football ;). --Foroa (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Verzoek om adviesEdit


Kan ik veroorloven om uw mening te vragen over het verzoek om dit bestand te verwijderen.

Goedenavond en danken u bij voorbaat

Jean-Pol GRANDMONT (talk) 18:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Merci, les lois FOP en Belgique sont complètement dépassés: ils protègent les artistes célèbres (et riches) et gardent "les petits" dans l'ombre. --Foroa (talk) 06:51, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Czech or Chechoslovak airforce?Edit

Hi, regarding this edit: are you aware, that czechia and slovakia did not split before 1992 and the pictures in question are taken in 1991? IMVHO Category:Air force of Czechoslovakia was the right choice. Regards, --Markscheider (talk) 21:31, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Basically, I agree with you; in the Category:Military of Czechoslovakia structure, there should be a category structure that covers the en:Czechoslovak_Air_Force#History. Problem is that a substantial part (if not the majority) of the images of aircraft from the Czech Republic used to be part of the Czechoslovak Air Force, but that would require a parallel category system that requires quite some expertise. So very much like the people that are primarily categorised in their current Czech or Slovakia country (as we see as well in the rearrangements in the Soviet Union, Germany, the British Empire, United States, almost all countries with colonies, ...), we do that with the aircraft as well. The historical cats are delicate and should be mainly used for items that are complementary to the current categories, such as items that did not exist any more when the split has been made. --Foroa (talk) 05:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, if the particular aircraft ended up in czech service. But a lot of them were inherited by Slovakia. (Just in case you checked up on that, i withdraw my comment.) --Markscheider (talk) 12:09, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, I am already happy to get the basic categories, pertaining to this year, right. To me, the second degree/level categories are a luxury problem ;). --Foroa (talk) 12:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, deze category is weel zéér ahum... Enig idee hoe dit gefixed kan worden? Als je het mij vraag, lijkt me Category:European Shorthair stukken beter Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


Les lois FOP en Belgique sont complètement dépassés Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

{{Category redirect}}Edit

Hello Foroa,
About {{Category redirect}} and its 3 subtemplates {{Synonym taxon category redirect}}, {{Invalid taxon category redirect}} and {{Monotypic taxon category redirect}}. I want to move forward with these 4 templates because wikipedia needs to justify/prove/explain the redirects.
You said that there were issues with some bots (SieBot, User:RussBot/category redirect log, Iz...something).

  • Can you help me call these bot's creators. If there is an issue with many bots, certainly a correction on some bots will be enough. The uncorrected ones's work would be done by the corrected ones.
  • If you don't have time, could you describe me the issue with each of the bot you listed and what tests you did. (That would be very helpfull in all cases to test the corrections)
  • If you really don't have time, will you let me call for help on Commons talk:WikiProject Tree of Life ? (Last time you reverted without notifying, explaining me) or WikiProject_Plants)

Best regards Liné1 (talk) 11:16, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Liné1, but all my attempts to ask for SieBot improvements returned only a pointer to the sources somewhere; why we cannot use {{Rename}} for category {{Move}}. Why I am under the impression that making your templates as a subtemplate in category redirect could be the easier solution as it would require no bot changes. RussBot is probably more flexible/cooperative (just ask) while I did't notice other bots doing redirect moves lately, probably disabled because they did not respect the cooldown period. (exceptionally Jarektbot moves redirected cats too, but Jarect is plenty of goodwill). --Foroa (talk) 08:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Cheers Liné1 (talk) 09:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I made already a test case in Category:Sternidae three weeks ago and indeed RussBot has a problem with it: User:RussBot/category redirect log. --Foroa (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
You think that RussBot also moves categories ? It should have moved Category:Unidentified Sternidae from Category:Sternidae to Category:Laridae ? In that case my test cases are not enough. Liné1 (talk) 14:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
As can be seen in User:RussBot/category redirect log, RussBot is currently the main mover of redirected categories after a cooldown period of 7 days or so. Why I made quickly a test case for it. Other bots seem to have stopped doing systematic moves a couple of months ago, but many moves are done manually anyway. Obviously, RussBot cannot smell that your hidden category redirect is a well, category redirect, why it reports a false positive. --Foroa (talk) 15:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
JarektBot is no longer in the business of cleaning Category:Non-empty_category_redirects since RussBot started working on it. I was helping with this task, in the time when it seems like it was abandoned. If I ever restart that task I will make sure to retest it first. By the way another reason for category redirects I occasionally rely on is alternative spellings of people names. I often have to deal of matching few hundred names with our categories, and having multiple spellings redirect to a single category is very useful. --Jarekt (talk) 20:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I know, but RussBot happened to drop out for several days (toolserver ?), so it is useful to have a backup solution, especially as other bots seem to have problems with the cooldown period. Category redirects are indeed great for alternative namings (and diacritics) especially in our multi-language context. I mainly clean out redirects that use the wrong spelling, punctuation, capitalisation, prefixes, plurals, ... as to avoid bad training and to preserve the system for the real important redirects, so I am probably the one that creates and repairs most redirects too. --Foroa (talk) 05:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It looks as if there is now RussBot, the major category redirect bot, that supports it, so I guess that it can be published now (the publishing of 3 weeks ago without testing and bot integration was not a good move). --Foroa (talk) 10:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Excellent news. Thanks a lot Foroa. Cheers Liné1 (talk) 10:53, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
I found back the other bot: User:Sz-iwbot but I am under the impression that it has stopped from handling redirects. Is not very talkative ;) --Foroa (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Artista plástico Mauricio colmenaresEdit

Hola Foroa un cordial saludo,mi user es arteexclusivo,mi nombre artista plástico Mauricio colmenares,te cuento que no sabia que elegir muchas categorías era un procedimiento inadecuado,gracias por advertirme.Estaba preocupado por el mensaje que si no agregaba categorías,mis archivos podían ser borrados,user Turelio ya comprobó mis fuentes de las fotos de mis archivos,pero me preocupa que que no desaparece la nominación a borrado de mis imágenes.

Compartiendo conocimiento en el arte de fusionar técnicas de mosaico,vitral esculturas en una misma obra de arte. Un cálido abrazo.

                                     --Artista plástico Mauricio colmenares (talk) 06:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)Artista plástico Mauricio colmenares
I can understand that you want to promote your work, but if you don't want to understand COM:OVERCAT and keep adding wrong categories, I will have no choice but deleting those files. --Foroa (talk) 07:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Science and technology by countryEdit

We don't have a policy-supported standard keying, it's rather determined by considerations of thematic groupings, i.e. "by-" categories apart, "in art/in audio/videos of-" categories apart, et cetera. In this one case – as I mentioned already at the talkpage – indexing "[[Category:Science and technology| ]]" is ill-sorted as it puts non-related groups amidst, therefore opting [[Category:Science and technology|*]] instead is much more favourable. In Science and technology we have Category:Science and Category:Technology which form a priority-level pair that should stand alone on top. In cases where there is no such situation of course we index the "by country"-cats with a [ ], being the "superior" key. Regards, Orrlingtalk 03:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I can understand that you try to improve keying to do a logical grouping of meta categories, I noticed your experiments but so far, I did not manage to see a global logic. On the other hand, from de nearly 10000 categories in Category:Categories by country, the large majority is keyed with a blanc prefix. Most other user understand that keying logic, and as a consequence, the large majority of the thousands "by xxx" categories are keyed with a blanc too. So, in most categories, the "by xxx" categories are always on the same place, which is certainly the most efficient way for all of us. So if you want to invent your private keying scheme, at least respect the current, what I would call de facto standard, especially as it doesn't really induces real constraints for complementary keying schemes. --Foroa (talk) 06:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
I put the category in a perfect logical state that respects the standard keying, removed the unneeded keying as you tend to overdo it and the main category body becomes empty. --Foroa (talk) 06:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

We don't mix "by-"cats with non-by cats; "Standard keying" is an OK invention by you, but it still yealds to our sorting conventions & thematic groupings as explained to you, Your edit has been undone, pls don't restore it before bringing on a solution to the unfavourable mix that such edit creates. Orrlingtalk 06:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

This is no invention of me, this is how it evolved with 20000 or so meta categories.
I am restoring the science and technology cats as they were before you created the Science and technology cat. The science and technology cat have been created because for institutions and research, they are intimately connected. That doesn't mean that they must be mixed everywhere, science and technology have to remain two main topics at the same level, the science and technology combination must be subcats for the cases where they cannot be untangled, not to become a main cat for the science and technology cat. If you don't agree on that, you can discuss that on a CFD, but I don't plan to spend my day on correcting your wrong and unilateral category changes. --Foroa (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully...Edit will be able to explain me what did you think while creating this category. - A.Savin 09:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure, don't despair. If you would have checked the dates of the images, your question would probably have been formulated in another way. We are trying to follow up Special:WantedCategories as quick as possible and keep the list down to cats with less than 10 items. In case of batches of beginners/novices (especially in September during wiki loves monuments campaigns), we try to move the items to the correct category or create the correct categories, as to give the good example and allow the uploaders to adapt. In the case of Category:Econimy of Israel, there is no hurry as the category don't interferes with other categories and PikiWiki Israel makes many such errors and seems not to be able to be adapted. Few people from Israel seem concerned about that problem. So this is a low priority job; the most important is that the category surfaces somewhere where it will be picked up one day, as you did. --Foroa (talk) 10:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Moving the files via Cat-a-lot to the right category takes less than a minute, so I still don't know why it was a problem, but it's probably useless to discuss. - A.Savin 11:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


Have a look at Category:NT. What is going wrong here? --Havang(nl) (talk) 12:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Idem for Category:MA and may-be more of those letter categories. --Havang(nl) (talk) 12:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Two letter categories: that is asking for problems and upload and CommonSense bots will fill them up forever. Renamed and cleaned a major part. --Foroa (talk) 16:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Well done ! --Havang(nl) (talk) 17:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, foute Category - benamingen: Isreal ipv Israel, of is dit niet belangrijk? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 20:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Is(it)real ? Benieuwd of die gasten dat gaan ontdekken; de ene is al 2 jaar oud en onze super-cat-man heeft er al aan gewerkt. Hebben ze zand in hun ogen of zijn ze ongemakkelijk met sexy categories ? Normaal zou ik dat meteen veranderen, ... --Foroa (talk) 05:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Dag Foroa, wil je eens controleren of ik het correct deed? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Bedankt! Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Gewoon een aantal cats klonen en je wordt het wel gewoon (cats verwijzen altijd naar een hoger niveau parent cats en eindigen allemaal in Category:CommonsRoot). Het aanzetten van HotCat in My preferences/gadgets kan wel veel versnellen. Gewoon doen ... --Foroa (talk) 07:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


Bonjour Foroa,

Tu as remplacé la semaine dernière Category:Granville par Category:Granville (Manche), mais tu as n'a pas corrigé les liens correspondants dans les articles des différents wikis (je n'ai regardé que la wiki francophone, mais je pense que c'est pareil pour les autres). Je ne pense pas que ce soit fait automatiquement par un bot ; si c'est le cas, tant mieux, sinon bon courage... Croquant (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Bonjour Croquant, j'espère que tu n'es pas sérieux.
Nous avons 2.300.000 catégories, presque 500 mille nouvelles par an, j'en renomme ± vingt mille par ans
Nous avons 290 wikipedias, ± 900 wikimedia projets, comme client connu, un nombre inconnu de clients non wikipedia
Nous devons disambiguer dès qu'il y a un conflit/disambiguation nécessaire dans un des 290 wikipedias
Notre structure va beaucoup plus profonde que dans les wikipedias (PE quartiers, hameaux, rues), donc encore plus de disambiguation. Donc, les catégories sont plutot de la cuisine interne de Commons qui évolu tres vite et qui ne devrait pas être exporté vers le monde extérieur.
Nous n'avons aucun outil pour trouver les "incoming links", encore moins pour les corriger
J'essaie toujours d'avoir un link clickable dans les "edit summaries" pour faciliter la recherche vers le dernier move, je fait des grands efforts pour insérer des interwikis afin de faciliter la vie des bots qui maintiendront (un jour) les liens
De l'autre coté, je suis tout à fait étonné que
Les gens continuent a essayer de trouver le nom le plus court en espérant de ne pas devoir céder la place pour une disambiguation (et puis se plaindre pour les liens cassés)
ils n'utilisent pas le template {{Commons}} au lieu de {{Commonscat}} afin de linker vers une gallérie qui contient soit une gallérie ou un redirect dur (qui fonctionne) vers la catégorie.
les wikipedias ne tournent pas un bot de temps à l'autre pour vérifier et reporter/corriger les liens cassés. Il me semble que ce n'est que le de:wiki qui fait quelque chose du genre là. Pourtant, du coté wikipedia, c'est le plus facile à implémenter.
Donc, désolé que je ne peux pas faire mieux, mais je me sent pas coupable. --Foroa (talk) 18:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Tu fais comme tu veux, mais, en ce qui me concerne (la vieille école), je corrige systématiquement les liens dans les divers articles lorsque je renomme une catégorie. Et effectivement, je suis sérieux, du moins je tâche de l'être autant que faire se peut ; ce n'est pas parce que c'est une activité bénévole qu'il ne faut pas la faire proprement. Croquant (talk) 05:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Moi aussi, je suis bénévole de la vieille école. Par contre, je me concentre principalement sur les catégories de Commons et leur maintenance, et il n'y a pas le boulot qui manque. --Foroa (talk) 07:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Category redirects Open Access MediaEdit

Hi Foroa,

it was nice to work in tandem with you today. One thing I noticed that may merit further discussion is a number of category redirects for categories generated by the Open Access Media Importer on the basis of MeSH terms or other keywords associated with the articles in PubMed Central. One example is Category:Blood platelets, which you deleted after I had redirected it to Category:Platelets. The problem is that it is very likely that the OAMI bot will bring in "Blood platelets" in the future again, so I think we'd fare better if we'd let RussBot keep an eye on these imports than if we delete all the redirected categories. What do you think?


-- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 22:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I have been nicely surprised by the quality of the categories and the category structures of your uploads. That is quite exceptional as many major upload batches leaves us with months of recategorisation work. To be honest, I tried first to properly categorise, but I gave up and started to categorise in a temporal way as to free Special:WantedCategories that is used to detect beginners and batches of new uploads that are not properly categorised.
I found some of the category names too generic, such as "motor systems" and statistical and time related names, while they are very much specialised and should have a more domain specific name.
Some of the categories, such as Category:Eye and especially Category:Young adult don't follow Commons naming rules, so I moved them quickly to a more specific name. If one would leave Category:Young adult for a couple of weeks, it would be filled up with pictures of young adults (whatever that means) in no time.
Concerning Category:Blood platelets: the logic escapes me. Either all platelets are blood platelets, so it is a redundant name to start with, or one has other variations of platelets, and the category needs renaming. --Foroa (talk) 07:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The question I have here is mainly whether our bot should kind of be (i.e. made) aware of existing Commons categories (e.g. by way of black- and whitelists) and then post only these, whether we should make use of existing Commons tools like Russbot to sort categorization out, or whether manual work or yet-to-be written tools should come into play. I guess that manual work can not entirely be avoided but I would favour allowing some more redirected categories that Russbot could act on, with minimal or no use of lists that have to be curated. In the case of (blood) platelets, both categories are synonymous, and since "Blood platelets" is a bit more descriptive, I agree that files should go there. Yet our categories are basically taken from PubMed Central or the publisher-supplied XML of the corresponding article, and in the absence of an algorithmic representation of the Commons naming rules, we will always end up putting out some categories that are not Commons-compatible. To sort these out, we have Category:Uploaded with Open Access Media Importer and needing category review. Groetjes, -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 05:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I would doubt very much that on the source, you have an algorithmic naming rule as that would have eliminated much of their redundancy, typical for a tag oriented category system. The young adult example shows why redirects can solve only a small part of the problems.
The placelet example is only the top of the iceberg, but a prefect example of how many, if not most of your images are overcategorised (COM:OVERCAT) or have too many generic categories. Yesterday, I removed 80 or so of your images from the animals category (most of them had a animal behavior category too). People that are trying to keep categories tidy are just chased away when such categories are flooded with tens or hundreds of images that are not really relevant. I've seen many generic categories such as female, male, temperature, animals, eye, time factors, posture, orientation, ... which will probably be flooded by your uploads. Most of your images will require tens of manual edits by the people that maintain the generic categories, so we should try to cut down at that at the source level. Redirects will make the problem only worse.
File:Upside-down-swimming-behaviour-of-free-ranging-narwhals-1472-6785-7-14-S1.ogv is an example but there are worst cases: will you clean out the Category:Swimming, Category:Biological models, Category:Signal transduction or Category:Animal behavior ? They are becoming unexploitable. Good luck, I hope you have a couple of days for each of them. What would be the improvement if we redirect Category:Eye to Eyes (besides the bad user training) ? So we discover them better in Special:WantedCategories so that we can try to move them in batches to a more appropriate category, as I did with young adult. --Foroa (talk) 07:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I know the sources use tagging rather than categories, and I am aware of the problem of overcategorization and generic category names, but there is little we can do about that algorithmically without incorporating Commons' category tree in some way into the importer. What we do now is to throw away most categories that have just one word, so you shouldn't see any Category:Eye or Category:Swimming in recent uploads. This doesn't solve the Category:Young adult, Category:Signal transduction or Category:Animal behavior problems (for which I don't have any solution) but it certainly reduces the noise considerably. On the other hand, we also have to avoid uploading files without non-hidden categories, and given the variation in how articles or files are tagged or labeled, this is not an easy undertaking either.
I see your point regarding the use of Special:WantedCategories to track unusual categories, and I can adapt to that and I will try to avoid redirects in the future. If you need a parking space for new categories filled by the bot, please use Category:Uploaded with Open Access Media Importer and needing category review (which exists for that very purpose), not Category:Media from BioMed Central (which is meant to host only materials from that particular publisher). -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 00:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
So I have to conclude that there is not a lot that can be done but maybe we can work out things to repair some of the damage. I pity the guys that maintain Category:Danio rerio; they will have hard times to find their little fishes back. Two questions:
  • would it be possible to maintain statistics of referenced categories: that way, we can try help to untangle the crowded categories such as Category:Danio rerio and Category:Animal behavior. A trace containing each image and its categories would help already.
  • what quantity and time frame of further downloads you are foreseeing ? --Foroa (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Kartuzy (Kartuzë)Edit

Please rename all files of the "category:Kartuzy (Kartuzë)" to "category:Kartuzy". All files are from the city of Kartuzy in the Pomeranian Voivodeship. "Kartuzë" is the name of the city of Kartuzy in the kashubian (csb) language. See "Bruxelles (Brüssel)" 14:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I didn't invent the name myself: I discovered the non-created category with 45 images, so I tried to give it a place. Once its contents is moved to the proper category, we better delete it indeed (Insert {{Badname|Kartuzy}}). --Foroa (talk) 07:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Hi Foroa, thank you for fixing my user subpages (here and here). I completely forgot to add the "User:" prefix. I'll be more careful next time! —Bruce1eetalk 11:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


Dag Foroa, weet jij waar User:PMRMaeyaert mee bezig is? Hij haalde mijn OP leeg, wat ik natuurlijk undid, maar voor de rest... Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Niet echt. Niet echt handig op wikis, categories zijn meestal een ramp. Zelfstandig fotograaf, nadert de 60 jaar , meestal monumenten (officiele lam gods fotograaf 10 jaar terug) en city/landscapes, had vroeger een winkel in Oudenaarde (zie top van zijn talk), gaf les aan de academie van Oudenaarde, doet nu en dan tentoonstellingen, en woont vermoedelijk een groot deel van zijn tijd in Spanje. Zet zijn werk online met heel beperkte resolutie, mogelijks in de hoop klanten te vinden. Vermoedelijk (kandidaat) leverancier van beelden voor Europeana. --Foroa (talk) 12:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

File:Diana Eng, Fairytale Fashion, Eyebeam Open Studios- Fall 2009, 20091023.10D.55465.P1.L1.SQ.BW, SML.jpgEdit

Why exactly, did you add this file to Category:Biomimetics ? A mistake perhaps? --Simonxag (talk) 10:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

"Diana Eng is a fashion designer who specializes in technology, math, and science. Her designs range from inflatable clothing to fashions inspired by the mechanical engineering of biomimetics." Until we have items on intelligent/autoadaptive clothing, this cat is a starting point. --Foroa (talk) 11:01, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. --Simonxag (talk) 11:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Panorama FumayEdit

Is Category:Panorama Fumay a correct name, as many panoramic categories are reserved for wide panoramic pictures, not for panorama's. --Havang(nl) (talk) 13:49, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Differences are confusing and too subtle for most people, so at least, we should try to get the category name uniform. --Foroa (talk) 15:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


Thank you for disturbing me at work many times. This is the structure of Czech Republik and this of Slovak. Republik. {{Money-CZ}} (former only for czech notes) is now expanded to all czechoslovakian banknotes. --Drdoht (talk)

Please note that the structure for money containing banknotes, coins, ... is identical for all current and former countries, so please respect that for Category:Money of Czechoslovakia too. --Foroa (talk) 13:50, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

HotCat abbreviatonsEdit

I will ceasy my engagement for WM Commons for an unlimited time span if you or other admins keep speedy deleting the categories (Category:HotCat abbreviatons with the declaration herein, and their children) in an counter-productive manner. Frustration and anger are not elements of incitements for me spending 1,000s of hours including entire nights for the project. --Mattes (talk) 10:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The basic rule is that a category name explains what it is containing, which is certainly not the case here. Moreover, as you can read in various places, {{Category redirect}}, redirected categories should not be categorised themselves. It would be nice if each user started to create whole series of shortcut redirects in 290 languages for the 2.3 million of Commons categories. I am spending thousands of hours of keeping the category structure clean and relatively tidy, so I don't need extra work neither. --Foroa (talk) 15:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Still, it is an innovation to save time and effort. COM:UNDEL policy requires to ask you for the reason and a request for undeletion. Please outline your reason(s) for a speedy deletion (in a few sentences regarding the usability issue) and please undelete

They save typing characters in the catgory box, e.g. 3 characters instead of 34 caracters to retrieve <Category:>Paintings with signatures in the HotCat box. This abbr. stuff weren't necessary with a more modern environment (right now it seems like to be the technology from the early 1990s)

Did you read and understand Commons:WikiProject Arts/Manual of Style#Paintings? --Mattes (talk) 16:25, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
This is an excellent idea: extend your local HotCat with a personal shortcut lookup table. This is however a very bad idea to put that globally as this can lead to thousands of personal shortcut categories that will conflict with the millions of other categories names and redirects. --Foroa (talk) 07:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Made in ItalyEdit

hello, why you have removed the category from Category:Brands and badges about quality ?? the category is right, is also written HERE (incipit and description of the page) and here link of Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Please do no act like FAEP, your behaviors are counterproductive and disrespectful --Pava (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Commons is not an extension of an Italian Ministry nor a promotion agency; flooding all sorts of categories with your so called quality is disrespectful too. See comments on Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/10/Category:Made in Italy. --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Ukrainian art historians >> Category:Art historians from UkraineEdit

What are the causes replacement? --Zozula (talk) 16:14, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Commons standard naming convention as for example in Category:People of Ukraine by occupation, Category:Artists from Ukraine and Category:Scientists from Ukraine. Commons uses a more simple, analytical and consistent naming as the same naming scheme can be used for continents, countries, provinces, raions, cities, hamlets ... --Foroa (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Santa Maria dei Miracoli (Venice) picture categorizationEdit

Hello ! I see you cancelled the renaming I had proposed for the category "Exterior of Santa Maria dei Miracoli" (changed to "Santa Maria dei Miracoli - Exterior". In fact I tried to homogenize the category names, since there already were a "Santa... - Interior" and a "Santa... - Apse" category for this specific church. Are there any guidelines for the naming of these categories, or is it just more a "leave it as it is" policy, with just correcting obvious mispelling or typos in category names ? Thank you for your reply. Best regards. --LeZibou (talk) 20:08, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

You did not propose a renaming, you just moved Category:Exterior of Santa Maria dei Miracoli (Venice). I understand that because of historical reasons, the older standard of Italy seems according to your renaming. On Commons, we have a clear naming preference where the main topic is in front followed by qualifiers; this allows equally a nearly identical syntax from world/country/region/city down to church. This can be seen here. The case of exteriors is less pronounced because most buildings start their "life" with the exterior, while interior categories tend to be developed when it becomes too crowded. In general, when visiting a building, people might expect to see first the exterior (at the top level) as it is easier to recognise.
One day, all Apses in/of xxx will be harmonised too, but I agree, we are standing nowhere here.
As you can see in the category history, it has already be moved from an older syntax in our ongoing harmonisation efforts. Commons grows very fast and in an organic way, so we don't have the manpower to harmonise everything at once, but we are converging to clear standards. But at least, we try to avoid that harmonisation efforts are undone as you just tried. --Foroa (talk) 06:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer. I take good note of that, and will try to follow these recommendations for my next contributions. Best regards.--LeZibou (talk) 07:14, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Police patches of District of NevadaEdit

How do you tell someone that the categories they created are not proper, as in Category:Police patches of District of Nevada? Thanks for your help. --Mjrmtg (talk) 13:22, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I will try to explain some ways in the coming days, but none of the approaches work always. Anyway, you have to work a bit in it before you start to really understand it. Your first category took some time to become complete, so you might be better placed to try to accelerate the learning process. Conditio sine qua none is that the user has its watchlist enabled and watches it; I don't know the default settings. --Foroa (talk) 14:18, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Note that this was not a complaint: it is just the way it evolves. After some thinking, I guess that only a very small part of the uploaders are concerned about the categories, people that go one step further by creating some of the needed categories are already a bonus, and the few ones like you that try to make a coherent category scheme are rather exceptional. Problem is that you focus on regional coherence, while the concerned contributor adds a thematic around the world; two different sets of problems and approaches. So I guess that the best we can do in order not to chase away people that do more than most uploaders is to help them and complete/correct their contributions in the hope that they learn and do more. --Foroa (talk) 07:23, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Education in FlandersEdit

Hi, it would have been nice if you had at least notified me of deleting the category. Why did you do this? As with many subnational levels like Wales, California, Hesse and Andalusia, it makes sense to have categories for the levels where education is organised. Regards, SPQRobin (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed that you created a couple of weeks ago Category:Education in French-speaking Belgium and Category:Education in Flanders and added a limited number of items in them. The first category has been emptied fairly quickly by one of our better contributors, the second one was marked for deletion. I deleted the second one as the naming was incoherent (the first points to a community, the second to a territory), while having "Education in Brussels" in Category:Education in Flanders is plain wrong. Other aspects as international schools, religious, communal and private educations,... where completely missing. As you can read in Category talk:Belgium, we aim at the simplest possible categorisation and shy away from complex schemes that cannot be understood by people that don't know very well the complex Belgian situation: that is for the wikipedias that have plenty of contributors to argue about it. On the other hand, when a new scheme is started, even incorrect and incomplete ones as the one proposed, people of other countries try to fill in some (easy) parts and makes it even more difficult to correct.
Anyway, we have a backlog of hundreds of thousands of uncategorised files, millions of very partly categorised images, so our priority is to make sure that a simple basic categorisation is in place. For example, the wiki loves monuments in Belgium campaign needs a full time job to get those images in the correct basic categories (without the more secundary ones), so we try to shy away from schemes that are basically adding complexity and all sorts of research and discussions, without answering a real need. --Foroa (talk) 07:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Flanders is both a community and region (in this case especially a community). I put the Brussels category in both categories, which is correct. I don't know what you're trying to say with missing international schools, religious, communal and private educations, I don't see such categories in Category:Education in Belgium either. And reading Category talk:Belgium ("clear consensus"? "we"?) I have the impression you are making problems where there aren't any. "All sorts of research and discussions"?. My aim was having the categories reflect the reality, which is an institutional and de facto division, it is less complex than you appear to think. Besides, I know about the (to this unrelated) backlog, which is something that is harder for me to help with, and imho needs to be addressed software-wise e.g. by requiring to add categories during uploading. Anyway, this discussion will most likely not end up anywhere useful, so well. Regards, SPQRobin (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Hagen (Rheinland)Edit

Hagen is NOT situated in Rhineland. You can name it "Hagen (Westfalen)" or "Hagen (Westphalia)" or "Hagen (North Rhine-Westphalia", but NOT "Rheinland", this is definitely wrong, like "Amsterdam (Twente)". Please correct this issue, thx. -- Smial (talk) 09:49, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

  Done Category:Hagen (Westfalen) --Foroa (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Thx, That was quick :-) -- Smial (talk) 12:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Bulgarian pigeons ;)Edit

Hallo Foroa,

do you know a bulgarian user/admin at commons who is able to check the User Pigeons who contributed two times on commons and three times in Bulgarian WP.

I suspect the files of copyright violation. They are tagged as "Own work". But if Pigeons really is identical with the bulgarian pigeons association... -- 14:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello IP from the Eulowitz region. Only one: User:Spiritia but not very active any more. You could ask the question on bg:Декоративни_гълъби, who knows ? --Foroa (talk) 14:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I did both and then thought about contacting Pigeon himself. All good things come in threes. -- 15:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Deleting a category linked to on the main pageEdit

Howdy. You appear to have deleted Category:Space. That category was linked to on the main page. It has been fixed.--Rockfang (talk) 15:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

This morning, it contained rubbish (since 9 days) and a couple of Vector graphs that had nothing to do with Outer Space. So I deleted it, maybe too hastily, but when looking in Category:Outer space, it explains why it has so much unrelated images in it. --Foroa (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Canton de vatan et valençayEdit

Bonjour peut tu annuler la suppression de ces deux catégories : Category:Canton de Valençay et Category:Canton de Vatan, le temps que je recupere le texte pour le transfer ailleurs. --Floppy36 (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Merci d'insérer {{Badname|New name}} quand elle peuvent être effacées; ainsi les gens gens voient le nouveau nom, comme avec la catégorie berrichonne. --Foroa (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
merci j'ai fini le transfere, tu peut le supprimer définitivement. --Floppy36 (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Category nonsenseEdit

Why in heaven's name did you delete Category:Flags of the Palestinian National Authority when it was a redirect to a non-existent category??? Even if the redirected-to category existed, it's far from clear that this should be deleted, and the only reason it was a redirect was because of the unilateral manipulations of Orrling, which it is far from clear are desirable in the first place... AnonMoos (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Because I try to keep Category:Broken category redirects clean and I am fed up of repairing the stupidities of Orrling that tends to systematically revert my changes. --Foroa (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Whatever dude -- since you apparently gave User:Orrling an unlimited blank check for your admin powers, and freely and laxly let him manipulate you into using them in a self-evidently stupid and non-productive way, I've included you in the complaint at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#User:Orrling and User:Foroa. -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:20, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Redirects for changed catsEdit

. Foroa (talk | contribs) deleted page Category:Photographs by Larry Lamsa ‎(Category:Photographs by Larry Lamsa moved to Category:Files from Larry Lamsa Flickr stream)

Please don't delete redirects when you change a name!

I think this change was pointless to start with -- and we may have discussed this -- but don't hide the old name! Thanks, Pete Tillman

Category:Photographs by Larry Lamsa has been moved to Category:Files from Larry Lamsa Flickr stream; no idea why. When you click on the edition summary of the deletion, you will arrive in new category. --Foroa (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Categories byEdit

Hello Foroa. What do you think of Verdy p's opinion about not to classify Category:Valued images of France by department by letter (little conflict between us, see history). For him, all departments should appear in 1 block, for me, all "by" categories should appear with letters (e.g. the sort key for 1 department in this category should be "|xxx", not "| xxx"). It is the first time I see such an opinion, and I think he's wrong (but he may be right). What is your advice, and the naming conventions ? It is just a detail, but part of my job here, and I have something else to do than correcting again and again. Thanks, Jack ma (talk) 07:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

En général, ce qui est fait pas Verdy_p n'est pas con. Quand je vois la structure actuelle de Category:Departments of France, il fait ce que nous faisons depuis 5 ans en Belgique au niveau de pays et municipalités (Category talk:Belgium): d'abord (chez nous, en haut à gauche) les choses/structures fixes qui ne changent jamais, puis les catégories variables qui ne cessent pas d'augmenter. Ça facilite sérieusement la navigation et la maintenance. Je ne prétend pas que notre façon est la meilleure, mais je sais que ça marche et ça sépare nettement le coté variable du coté fixe sans millions de changements de sort keys. --Foroa (talk) 08:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Merci, je comprends un peu mieux avec ce côté fixe de listes. Mais je continue à croire que les lettres facilitent la navigation pour une liste d'une centaine de départements. Voir aussi Category:Cities and villages in Charente qui est une liste fixe des communes dans un département.
Et penses-tu que c'est justifié de mettre "See also" pour la catégorie qui est au-dessus (cachée ou non; mais c'est peut-être là le pb). Voir par exemple : Category:Quality images of Montbron qui indique "Voir aussi Category:Quality images of Charente" ? Je pense que ça ne se justifie pas, sauf peut-être parce que la catégorie est cachée ? Jack ma (talk) 12:48, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Avec les trucs fixés d'abord, ça marche bien pour un dizaine de cats. Au delà, il faut essayer de trouver le meilleur compromis ou on place les fixes et les variables. Pour Category:Cities and villages in Charente, c'est assez simple (il n'y pas de choix et les fixes sont présent quasiment des le départ). Pour churches, paintings, il vaut mieux de mettre les cats d'abord parceque les fixes risquent de se développer au compte goute (voir churches in ...)
Attention pour les hidden; il me semble qu'ils sont uniquement hidden dans les images, pas dans les catégories.
Je trouve que le "voir aussi" a uniquement du sens pour des sister cats (featured/valued/quality pictures). Pour sauter de niveau, il y a les cats et la barre de navigation. --Foroa (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Je viens de faire un petit test rapide après un logout. Je n'ai pas trouvé un cas ou les catégories sont vraiment cachés ... Peut être pour les galléries ? --Foroa (talk) 19:01, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Rain CountryEdit

When I first saw this, I thought it was a contribution from a new user who was really wanting to make a gallery or did not understand the category system. Obviously not, but what are you trying to do? It does not clearly fit as a subcat of Alaska. What is the basis for the categorization? Dankarl (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not invent that category myself; I just found Category:Rain Country as a red category with 35 members in Special:WantedCategories. When looking in en:Juneau, Alaska, there might be some "Rain Country" there (KRNN Rain Country Radio" 102.7 and several companies with "Rain Country" in the name), so I tried to put it in the right area, till someone (like you ?) comes around that knows the area. --Foroa (talk) 17:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Herne, Germany and subcatsEdit

Hello Foroa, first of all thank you for contributing to Commons. I may introduce myself to you as someone mainly contributing here with edits dealing with coats of arms, flags, and seals, all of them subcats of symbols. Your work is interfering with mine while I contribute to complete the category trees for civic coats of arms, civic flags, and civic seals in Germany like:

All of those categories directly named above bear the proper versions of the Template:Districts of North Rhine-Westphalia, and most of the parallel categories of districts in North Rhine-Westphalia, where I am living, like:

My aim now is to do the same for the city of Herne (de:Herne), which now is categorized in Category:Herne, Germany. I do not mind wether it should be the first or the second as follows:

But I want it to be done coherently, and I want it to be done parallel to all the parallel categories. Do you have any counter-arguments so far?

Dear Foroa, if you are convinced that all subcats of Herne, Germany should bear Herne, Germany in its name, that’s okay for me. If you are convinced that all subcats of Herne, Germany should bear Herne in its name, that’s okay for me, too. But your edits in the last time produce incoherences: You repeatedly deleted Flags frome Herne and Flags of Herne with the reason “Improperly named”. Simultaneously you edit Coats of arms of Herne. Is the last one properly named if the others are not? I can see no sense in having at least two diverging name conventions here.

Please, come to a conclusion to what you want to do! If you want subcats of Herne, Germany to be named with Herne, Germany, so do it. But, PLEASE, if so do it completely for all of them:

And do not forget to adjust the above named Template:Districts of North Rhine-Westphalia, widely used for navigation bars here at Commons in thousands of categories. Make all of those categories parallel, or leave it completely! Choose one of the two conventions, let it be with Herne or with Herne, Germany! Otherwise you hamper a number of subcats of Herne, Germany to being found with those navigation bars.

What made me very angry is that you repeatedly deleted the Category:Flags of Herne ([19], [20]) from the File:Flagge der Stadt Herne.svg instead of moving it to a proper subcat of the city this file belongs to. I do strongly support that any file depicting the symbol of any entity, may it be a city or a district or whatsoever, must be in the category of this entity or the proper subcat of this category. I suppose those edits have been done thoughtlessly, not maliciously. The named file should, in my point of view, be either in Category:Flags of Herne or in Category:Flags of Herne, Germany (whatever will be the final conclusion), a category that should also contain any photography depicting the flag of the city of Herne. As you can imagine, there are a lot of possible files to be put here.

After all, your repeated deletions and reverts of my edits hindered me very much in properly categorizing numerous files. Please, stop deleting categories I make! Your actions result in disrupting the category trees not only I am building up. Hoping for good cooperation, I send you kind greetings
--ludger1961 (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

You don't need a university degree to know why there are disambiguations such as for Category:Herne: this is only the beginning; as Commons goes much deeper in categories, there will be more to come. And it is obvious for most people here that subcategories that relate to their parent category, have the same name and disambiguation.
I moved already in the beginning of November Category:Symbols of Herne and other categories to their proper names, I might have deleted other related cats that where empty at that time as I have limited time to correct fundamental and systematic mistakes. In stead of correcting, you reverted my moves and carried on creating categories with the wrong name. Strangely enough, your make no mistakes when it concerns a kreis, the Aachen area or Mülheim an der Ruhr So please, don't come here to complain about the interference, extra work or correction work. It is not because you hurried up to add the maximum of categories with the wrong name that you like the most that I become responsible for your mistakes. I noticed that you moved some disambiguated cities to the name without disambiguation. Well, you are shooting in your own feet as sooner or later, they will be disambiguated again.
So it is quite simple, just follow the very simple rule that places should be disambiguated whenever there is a possible conflict in one of the wikipedias (easy to see in the interwikis or when there is a disambiguation article in the German wikipedia) and make sure that the subcategories carry the same names as their parents. This will cause the least trouble, and if such cases appear exceptionally, I tend to be the first one to help to move the complete tree.
If you have a problem with the templates, I can change it. You can place rename requests on COM:DL --Foroa (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Dear Foroa, thank you very much again for your valuable contributions to Commons. Thank you for your answer, too. What would have been the problem with moving newly created categories instead of deleting them? And why did you repeatedly delete the category relating the File:Flagge der Stadt Herne.svg to its entity instead of moving it to the category of the entity or the most fitting subcat thereof?
Additionally you wrongly moved the contents from “Symbols of Herne” to “Symbols from Herne, Germany”, causing even more incoherences. Imagine that “Symbols of …” are subcats and different from “Symbols from …”, as you can see from the following examples:
Krefeld Kreis Paderborn
Symbols of …
Symbols from …
The categories “Symbols of …” are one step between “Symbols from …” at the one side and “Coats of arms of …”, “Flags of …”, and “Seals of …” at the other side, but with falsely merging “Symbols of …” to “Symbols from …” you destroyed one important intermediate step for the city of Herne in Germany.
Dear Foroa, I explicitly invited you to move the categories, and I still invite you to do that. What I asked you, and what I still ask you, is to complete your work once you start it. You explicitly moved only one category, leaving its subcats unmoved, even insisting in keeping them unmoved, thus causing the trouble. When you want categories to be moved, move them instead of deleting and reverting edits.
As you can see, we agree in the aim of improving and developing Commons, and we agree in having limited time for doing so. We also agree in the aim of avoiding disambiguities and incoherencies as well. It is not possible to do all at the same time. The more important it is to cooperate instead of to combat. Again: I explicitly invited you to move the categories, didn’t I?
When watching me creating categories, then please watch me using the gadget Cat-a-lot as well to immediately fill those categories. And if you talk about Aachen, the Städteregion Aachen, and Mülheim an der Ruhr, which are my edits you question? Tell me your questions, so I can give you my answers.
Best wishes, --ludger1961 (talk) 22:24, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
PS: Sorry, my browser crashed down, while I was editing, thus resulting in blanking the rest of this page. Thank you, Rockfang, for recovering!
--ludger1961 (talk) 05:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I am not responsible for categories that have been created because people think that their Herne is the centre of the world. I try to solve and avoid conflicts at the world level, so I did a first step, now a second. Do not complain that I delete categories after you have been undoing a series of my moves in the right direction. Commons is a collaborative and incremental project and changes are generally done one step at a time. --Foroa (talk) 07:28, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry I missed that extra section.--Rockfang (talk) 14:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't think you missed it really. Thank you for your help. --Foroa (talk) 15:08, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation pagesEdit

Hi Foroa and thanks for the work on Category:Colombier :) I'm sorry for not creating a complete disambiguation page, I was working on File:Carte schématique des bourgs et villages voisins de Vesoul.jpg. However, I really don't see the problem in creating an incomplete disambiguation page : isn't it better to have an incomplete page instead of no page at all ? Léna (talk) 20:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

No real problem as disambiguation pages tend to be incomplete all the time anyway and are badly maintained. Problem is that people that are using HotCat and select that page, are constrained by the pages in the disambiguation page. Category:Non-empty disambiguation categories creates a real maintenance problem; sometimes, images are hanging there for months, although since a couple of months, some contributors (Funfood I guess) try to keep them empty on a regular base, although it is getting worse again. Personally, I doubt very much the usefulness of such categories, especially with the auto-fill-in of the search boxes. Many people look only if a category is blue when categorising manually which explains why Category:Non-empty disambiguation categories receives tens of new entries per day. Personally, I create mainly new disambiguation pages to replace an invalid redirect or to occupy the slot which avoids the creation of categories like Category:Clans and Category:Flagy as you tried. We try to avoid moving categories all the time as movng categories involves much more work and breaks links in our 900 wikimedia clients. . --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Meaningless edit on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commandsEdit

This is the second time you've attempted to delete a rename bot order relating to category:Red ensigns, in both attemps no comment or link was given why this move shouldn't be performed by the bot. You've been reverted as unreasoned deletion of editors' movecat orders is not something we do here on Wiki. Regardz, Orrlingtalk 15:40, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

That is quite obvious: it concerns ensigns by color. See category:Ensigns, it concerns not only the en:Red Ensign but red ensigns from all over the world. I don't accept nor refuse moves without a very good reason as you should know by now. And if it was only the en:Red Ensign, I don't feel that it should be in plural. --Foroa (talk) 16:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
1. I don't really know anything “of you" by now,, no one here depends on your acceptions of things or unacceptions of them.. we work according to Wiki's outlines and continue one-another's starts. 2. Your explanation - right or wrong - is not given in its either right place or time: when you decided to delete the command from the bot list you had to specify your view there and then, otherwise this looked clearly as some kind of meaningless disruption, and- 3. Basing on the two parents of "Red ensigns" being Category:Union flag and Category:Flags of the United Kingdom, topped by this explanation given to me yesterday, you are wrong in your explanation. Orrlingtalk 16:29, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I now removed three times your move requested that makes no sense and that is not motivated. The fact that I remove it makes it controversial, the second and third time I gave a rationale. The page states clearly: "No controversial name changes." You better remove it your self. --Foroa (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
It's been now removed by someone, so I hope the discussion can take process. You need to comment my above rationale regarding the category. Orrlingtalk 21:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
I don’t mind that it’s in a singular form, but we need the capitalization Orrlingtalk 22:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
The delinker is for uncontested moves. Please follow the standard procedures for moves of CFD. --Foroa (talk) 07:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit war on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commandsEdit

The edit war on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands is not acceptable. Yann (talk) 16:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Remarks: I don't care who is right on the issue. I blocked Orrling for one day. Please do not edit this page in the meanwhile. Thanks, Yann (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
You have been prevented from editing User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands. Orrling is under the same restriction. Please work it out with him/her and when you have reached a consensus, let me know on my talk page and I will lift your restriction. -- King of ♠ 23:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Please note that I only applied the rules set forward in that page. User Yann removed the disputed request from that page according to that rule.
I am checking, processing, executing and cleaning the majority of the category move requests on that page. A significant part of the requests has to be altered or rejected, especially the ones from Orrling. I guesstimate that processing that channel results in about 10000 category moves per year, although lately, it calms down as SieBot blocks often and people move more using cat-a-lot which destroys part of the history. So if you are blocking me from processing that, I guess that you will find the equivalent of one full man day per week to execute that work. Will it be you ? --Foroa (talk) 07:05, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Do you agree to not touch anything added by Orrling if I disable it? -- King of ♠ 08:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


Hi, by takong a closer look at this construction, i'm not so sure anymore that it's a winding tower after all. --Markscheider (talk) 11:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I had my doubts, but after some closer look, I am afraid that you are right by saying that we were wrong ... ;). --Foroa (talk) 11:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Btw: winding towers are generally not considered as _buildings_. Category:Mining buildings is intended for winding engine houses, ore mills, bureaus etc. --Markscheider (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm maybe wrong. Cat structure doesn't support my arguments. I'll take back my last edits. --Markscheider (talk) 13:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
It all depends if you consider a winding tower as a building (top level cat, Germany) or as an equipment/machine. Anyway, winding towers in xx country has to be be connected with mines one way or another: either mining in country, mines in country or mine buildings in country. --Foroa (talk) 13:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Adding non-Brit-based flags to "Category:Red ensigns"Edit

Orrling is right on this particular narrow issue -- traditionally a red/blue/white ensign is a flag with the specified field color and the flag of England/Scotland/GB/UK in the canton, and a possible colonial badge at center right (with the qualification that a "white ensign" starts from a St. George flag or red cross on white, rather than from an all-white field). Later this was extended to countries (formerly British colonies) which patterned their naval flags after the British model. For other nations, you could create a category "Red naval flags" or whatever, but probably should not use "Category:Red ensigns"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

You are right that all sort of coloured ensigns all originate from historical British rules, but over the years it became a more generic habit and name in more colors. I guess that we have to create some sort of "Red Ensign (England)" category to isolate the "pure" red ensigns. I suggest to create a CFD for it. --Foroa (talk) 07:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, that's a fairly pointless suggestion -- a "Red Ensign (England)" category would include pretty much one file out of a hundred or more (File:English_Red_Ensign_1620.svg). Why not just keep the meaning of "Category:Red ensigns" in line with the meaning explained at en:Red Ensign? -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
See my point above; you just prove that the requested category rename is not a housekeeping move, that the category lacks a description of the scope and what needs to be done with the red ensigns that are not falling in the en:Red Ensign definition. --Foroa (talk) 09:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I've added a definition and interwikis to the category page; hopefully that should keep you from replacing the actually-occurring definition with a theoretical made-up definition... AnonMoos (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Great, that is an improvement, but obviously not enough, as the latest changes seem to indicate. You cannot say, from now on, we restrict the use of the category to Red ensigns that are strictly falling in the En:Red Ensign class (how to determine that ?) and the other red ensigns have to bugger off somewhere else; we just throw them out. And frankly, how can an average contributor in the middle of for example China know that a red ensign flag has such a history that one needs to study half a day to understand it. Anyway, there are other coloured ensigns, (another reason why I declined the delinker move request) so this discussion has not to take place here but as a COM:CFD at the level of Category:Ensigns. --Foroa (talk) 17:10, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
I see little problem with saying that the category is for flags derived in some way from the relevant British flags. Many words and phrases in the English language (or any other) have definitions which are a little fuzzy around the edges, but that doesn't present people from using such terms in a useful way understandable by others. AnonMoos (talk) 01:11, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I still see a problem, but it might be because I am not British.
Could you explain why the following images recently needed removal from your newly defined category Category:Red ensigns, while they where sitting there for a long time, and why so many with non British flags are still on it ? Does this show that your interpretation is not the going interpretation, or is rather not practical ?
File:Russia Navy 1804 boat contr 3.svg, File:Russia Naval 1827 captain.svg, File:Russia Naval 1797 commander 3.svg, File:Naval Ensign of SFR Yugoslavia.svg, File:Flag of the Serbian River Flotilla.svg, File:Merchant flag of Spanish Morocco.svg --Foroa (talk) 06:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


Hi, Foroa. You have just reverted my contributions to {{MetaCat}} and you have kindly suggested to me that I should first discuss them. Could you please tell me where it is the best place to start such a discussion? Thank you in advance. --Albert Villanova del Moral (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but your changes on this high use category have a big system impact, and as far as I can see will auto-insert tons of new categories in existing country categories (as flat lists) that are now mostly properly structured by hand. Moreover, this approach might create all sorts of maintenance problems, typical for templates that autogenerate categories. I guess that in a first round, you might discuss that on the template talk itself, but in the end with a working sample, a COM:CFD on Meta categories might be indicated. --Foroa (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Europa abductionEdit

Dag Foroa, ik vond dit plaatje op het internet. Weet jij of dit hier kan worden opgeladen? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:21, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Geen idee; ik blijf ver weg van licenties en modern werk met onze huidige "freedom of Panorama" politiek vind ik al helemaal frustrerend. Probeer het gewoon en zie whet het "systeem" doet, of vraag op Village pump/Copyright ? Het komt tenslotte van een soort van wikipedia. --Foroa (talk) 17:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Miriam and Ira D. Wallach Division of Art in the Category:New York Public LibraryEdit

Dag Foroa, zou het zin maken om een Category:Miriam and Ira D. Wallach te maken? Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Ik twifel eraan; mijn search levert 78000 images op, weliswaar veel oude stereo fotos. Maar wat ben je met een category die 78000 images heeft ? --Foroa (talk) 17:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Niet veel denk ik. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 12:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Category redirecyEdit

Hi there the peoples names with no spaces in the middle are how flickr tags of names work. With those redirects exisiting it means that anything imported via flickr2commons go directly to the correct person category often hundreds of photos.MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk) 20:42, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

"Tips on becoming an excellent category redirecter ... The one specific variation that you think is useful probably won't help much unless there's a special reason (e.g. the old name of a category)." In this case there is that special reason as it allows photos of those people to go right to their categories.MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk) 20:42, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Gymnosporangium clavariaeformeEdit

Hi Foroa. I tried to move Category:Gymnosporangium clavariaeforme to Category:Gymnosporangium clavariiforme, because this is the right spelled name, but obviously something went wrong. As I saw, that you removed the latter but correct category, I want to ask you, if you can help me? Thanks. --Josef Papi (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

King of RomeEdit

You are quick. I haden't time to insert the bad-name-template. ;)

I am looking for a solution between homing pigeons in general and breeds in particular. --PigeonIP (talk) 08:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, no clear idea, why I suggested the simple possible naming to avoid as much as possible such "bridge" solutions. --Foroa (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

CDC restriction removedEdit

I think it's been long enough and the issue has cooled down, so I am lifting your page block on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands. Please refrain from edit warring in the future. Thanks, King of ♠ 07:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll block him immediatly. --Foroa (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

HotCat shortcutsEdit

A first prototype is ready now. The functionality is not yet in the gadget, though, thus if you want to test it, it's a bit involved:


User:Lupo/c2.js is my private development version of HotCat. To switch back to the normal HotCat gadget, remove the "importScript" line again, re-enable the gadget, and reload the browser cache.

A first shot at some documentation for this is at User:Lupo/hc_shortcuts. I'll probably add a few screenshots of shortcuts in action before this goes live.

If anything is unclear, or doesn't work, or could or should be improved, leave me a message, either here or on my talk page. Please test it thoroughly; and use it for a while with shortcuts defined. Our version of HotCat is used on many Wikipedias directly; before we can update our gadget with this, we'll have to be reasonably sure that it won't cause problems.

Cheers, Lupo 11:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Well, personally, I don't need such a feature, I pass it on User:Mattes that needs such a thing badly. --Foroa (talk) 12:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Breaking stuffEdit

Hi Foroa! you have deleted Category:Nesher Factory - City Nesher Which was linked from the article in, you broke this link. Can you please check category links crosswiki before deleting them? The delete request was made by Orrling. This is not his first request that led to Breaking stuff see here. Orrling is indef blocked in for troling, Can you please check when you process his requests? Thanks Hanay (talk) 09:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The same problem see Category:The old commercial center in Jaffa St. Haifa Hanay (talk) 10:35, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Also Category:Memorial merchant mariner whose place of burial is unknown. This is really a problem. Can you check all his Latest deletion requests? Thanks Hanay (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi Hanay. Sorry, but I think that you have a misunderstanding of the Commons role as a media server for the 900 or so wikimedia clients in 270 languages. I merely validate and execute the various move requests (around 15000 moves I guesstimate this year).
Categories in Commons are its internal organisation, we have around 2.35 million categories, 480.000 new ones per year. Linking to internal Commons categories using Commonscat is frequently done, but has the consequences you are complaining about.
As you can read in User_talk:Foroa/archive_2011#Why_such_deletions_.3F, Commons:Category_redirects_suck and many sections in my archives, we have to be careful with category redirects. On most wikipedias, they are even forbidden or at least very much restricted. Edit summaries from the delinker are clickable to their new destination category.
Anyway, we have no tools to autogenerate redirects nor to check for the existence of incoming links, and frankly, manually editing in 270 languages is not simple.
It is much easier and efficient on the wikipedia sides to bot-check and update their outgoing commonscat links than to provide and maintain millions of redirects. I believe that they do something like that on the German wikipedia. I am under the impression that some wikis cross check the links through the interwikis on the Commons categories, why I spend significant energy in documenting and linking categories, but most people don't bother.
The best and most stable way to link to Commons is via a gallery that might contain images or a redirect to a category. At least, those redirects work and I try to maintain them.
So sorry, I can't do better but I have no more minutes in a day than you have. --Foroa (talk) 19:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Deletion requests/FoP Italy/2Edit

Hi Foroa. When you have a moment, could you do me a favor. After this request of deletion I decided to occupy my time to list the files with the same problem. I drew up a list of many files to delete. The problem is "no FoP in Italy". Could you check if everything is correct on User:Raoli/Deletion requests/FoP Italy/2? Thanks! Raoli ✉ (talk) 14:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Raoli, I am a firm believer of public domain work, the FOP issues are caused by outdated laws that protect the famous (and wealthy) artists, while pushing the less known artists in the dark. Moreover, I have difficulty of understanding the wikipedia politics concerning those issues, so I shy away as far as I can from all issues that relate to that. So I am mainly in the category business. --Foroa (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Don't worry. I don't know all the administrators of Commons, so I'm asking for a bit around some opinions. Also others are not interested about problems caused by the absence of FoP. :) Raoli ✉ (talk) 22:16, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
However, I've added the whole discussion in the Administrators' noticeboard. Raoli ✉ (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Built in Jerusalem in 1939 etc.Edit

Hi Foroa,
the formulation "built in Israel in" is misleading (as it is with buildings completed in a time when the place, where the building was completed, belonged to another country than now), but it is defined as "Buildings in ? [name of state] completed in …[year]". So buildings built before 1806 in Austria, the Czech Republic, or Germany, are listed as "Built in Austria/Czech Rep. or Germany in …" although Czech Rep, Austria and Germany became states of theses names only much later. Polish buildings in parts of the country once belonging to other states and built during this time, are categorised as "Built in Poland in …". Buildings built during British colonial reign in New England are listed as "Built in the United States in …"
So it is common practice to categorise the way done before.
Or is there any country in the commons, where the category "Built in state X in year Y" is called instead "Buildings in state X completed in year Y"?
Best wishes,
--Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 09:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I know, there has been some fiddling there. The top level category starts indeed always with the current situation, the country of today. Then subcats may contain other periods as we have with Britain, US, ...
Category:Great Britain in the 18th century switches over to Category:United Kingdom in the 18th century
Category:Thirteen Colonies in the 17th century switches over to Category:United States in the 17th century
Category:British Mandate of Palestine by year should switch over eventually to Category:Israel by year, but there is some need of restructuring and glueing there.
Category:1939 in Israel redirects to Category:1939 in the British Mandate of Palestine why your template doesn't fit: all the bot redirect moves get stuck there, so I removed the Israel cats as a first step (and a signalling to you). Might sound complicated, but simple compared to the problems of occupied and colonised territories in that area.
After some more searching as for example in Category:15th-century works by country, I have to admit that it is not clear which categories change name in the history and which stay at the current (actual) country. Frankly, a couple of years ago I often noticed huge naming inconsistencies in the time/date domain, so I managed to avoid that so far. --Foroa (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I see it is Pandora's box to start with this. So it needs better categories, the one "Buildings in Israel completed in year Y" would fit already, it is neutral, just categories as to the period will have to be added individually, right?
Or categories as to period in the Template:IsraelArc are to be deleted and individually added. What do you think, besides the understandable opinion of leaving it?
Best wishes
--Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 11:35, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I think that there should be some continuity in years for countries in their current form, and the specific historical years relating to colonies, older country forms, ... should be subcats of it. After all, a writer or painter from 700 years ago is categorised in the country where he's place belongs to now. (Otherwise it would be impossible to categorise artists from Belgium that has been occupied by almost each country in Europe). And buildings built in Jeruzalem hundred years ago don't belong to the Palestinian Mandate but to Israel I would guess.
And indeed, if you want to avoid template acrobacy, you have to add some of the changing categories manually. I don't know who is the main creator if such categories, it might be user:AnRo0002. As usually, Commons will create and document the standard within 3 to 5 years when it is rock stable. Good luck. --Foroa (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Just to add my two cents, I believe strongly that such categories should reflect current countries and borders, regardless of year. Period. Varying the category structures to reflect geo-political reality two centuries ago is just a categorization disaster in the making. Category:Thirteen Colonies in the 17th century is an utterly pointless category, and it's insidious because it encourages people to create even more problematic category structures. One shouldn't need a Masters degree in Central European history to be able to categorize the images of buildings in eastern Poland by construction date, for example. Everyone thinks they are creating more accurate category structures, but it's all just a nightmare in the making. Israel is a bit of an exception, given the political sensitivities. But otherwise creating a set of year categories for past countries and colonies is almost always a terrible, terrible idea. That's it for my rant. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 22:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, we seem basically to agree all, but if you like it or not, people will always need and create Britain or Thirteen Colonies tree structures, so we have to try to find a place for it, as deep as possible as far as I am concerned. --Foroa (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Your Deletion of Category:Microsoft Surface (Tablet)Edit

I have seen, that you have deleted Category:Microsoft Surface (Tablet) and moved the data in it to Category:Microsoft PixelSense. In my opinion that is not correct. Because Microsoft PixelSense is a table-mounted touch-computer by Microsoft and Microsoft Surface is a modern portable tablet-device of Microsoft which was released on 26th of October 2012. The former name of Microsoft PixelSense was indeed Surface but the tablet-device is not the same as the table-touch-computer.

They are different systems. Yours sincerely --Der Seraph [J.S.] ♂ JohannesSch. (DISCU/EDITS/MAIL) 10:14, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I stumbled over your uncategorised category with one entry and a capitalisation error (tablet should be lower case). Because Category:Microsoft Surface redirects to Category:Microsoft PixelSense, I moved it there too. I was not aware of the new MS device, so, it does not mean that I disagree with you, only that I had sufficient reasons to clean that up. --Foroa (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

From Category:Transport in Tokyo to Category:Transport in Tokyo prefectureEdit

Could you explain why you renamed Category:Transport in Tokyo into Category:Transport in Tokyo prefecture? I think, as you can see in en:Tokyo prefecture and in en:Prefectures of Japan#To (Tokyo), Tokyo prefecture can be an ambiguous term because it also denotes a historical body that dates back in 1943 and before. It is neither a commonly used term in the government's official English documents to my knowledge (see [23] for example). Tokyo metropolis seems to be better, but there are other concerns on how to distinguish the administrative entity (Tokyo metropolis) and the geographic region (Tokyo). Please note that a similar concern was raised at Commons:井戸端#"Tokyo prefecture" ? (in Japanese). --whym (talk) 11:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that a person moved several cats in Japan within Japan without motivation/discussion/explanation and breaking the navigation templates. Moreover, he created several useless redirects to solve in an awkward way the resulting navigation template problem. So I restored several of them, but I went probably too far with the Tokyo ones. It is a pity as to me, Japan on Commons is probably the neatest categorised country on Commons with the most consistent naming. Sorry for that mistake. --Foroa (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, I guess it can happen to everyone when doing something a batch style. Would you mind if I re-create Category:Road tunnels in Tokyo and Category:Transport in Tokyo, and move the relevant files back to them? Of course, I will appreaciate if you could do so, but I would be happy to help, too. --whym (talk) 00:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I just saw they were restored. Thanks :) --whym (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Reversion of three redirects, restoring uneeded duplicate filesEdit

Can you please explain your reversion [24][25][26] of these redirects I've performed (and any others I might have missed that you can recall or find). The reason I redirected those particlar files was because they are duplicates - the first two were uploaded direct to Commons by their author as well as to geograph, the third is present in the Flickr user's stream twice. The target images (1, 2, 3) are more suitable than the ones you've restored, not least because they're properly categorised and described, but also because in the first two cases the user's direct uploads to Commons are of higher resolution, and in the third case the target image is the unprocessed (slightly cropped) and correctly timestamped version. The difference in resolutions is presumably why the duplication is not automatically detected. Hopefully that explains why simply restoring them is undesirable and indeed problematic for various reasons. Ideally they should be deleted, but this would not prevent them being re-uploaded by someone else due to the difference in resolutions, so I believed redirection was best. If you are aware of a preferable approach for situations like this, please advise me what it is so I know next time. Ultra7 (talk) 19:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

You are not allowed to hide files behind a redirect. This creates unused files reports. Please use the {{Duplicate}} or {{Superseded}} template for it so that they can be deleted and replaced by a redirect if acceptable. Anyway, it is not Commons policy to delete files (and even less to hide them) for personal preferences. --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I didn't "hide" anything, these were unused scaled down duplicates with inferior descriptions/categories. They pointed to superior replacements, which are used. Deletion does not prevent others re-uploading these unwanted duplicates, so I took the action that I believed was appropriate and would fix the issue permanently. So I don't appreciate your tone or the insinuation that this would be nothing more than exercising "personal preference". I don't see how files appearing on unused reports is any less problematic than the continued presence of inferior duplicates, particularly when it takes some effort to detect them and figure out the reason for their existence. In once case here, it even exposes users to misleading file information, so that clearly outweighs an internal issue like a report entry. I will use {{Duplicate}}, and if nobody bothers to redirect the filenames or do anything else to prevent them being re-uploaded, well I guess you won't care that's for sure. Ultra7 (talk) 19:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Don't take the personal preferences personally: it happens from time to time that people want to shift their personal version in the place of an existing image, which boils down to an effective deletion but upset the database system. For deletion of images, there are procedures to that effect. --Foroa (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I took it personally because it is personal. My decision making was based on sound Commons principles, not personal preference (and you are mistaken if you believe the redirects are an attempt to use 'my' image over someone else's - none of these are actually my photographs, and in two of the three I am actually replacing my tranfers from geograph with the author's own direct uploads. For the third, both uploads were by me). It might boil down to an effective deletion in your eyes, but only because you seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge the presence of superior duplicates. I don't care about upsetting the database if the alternative is confusing users, uploaders and categorisers by forcing the display of poorly categoried/described and low resolution unused duplicates. Ultra7 (talk) 20:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Category-related bot requestEdit

Would you mind taking a look at Commons:Bots/Requests/PereBot? --99of9 (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

  Done --Foroa (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Category:Rosh HaAyin or Rosh Ha'AyinEdit

Your commentary on my talk page – though removed for being ill-titled ("last warning"? what can you do? :) ) – can be a good service for us if some points from it are attended: You, whose most edits on Wiki are wrong or disputed by editors, may reserve the right to believe your time and unbased preferences play any role whatsoever, however, in practice you'll continue to deteriorate your image which will even further neutralize your menaces from any tangibility and make you just even more furious. A person who claims "there are procedures" while regularly violating many of wiki's procedures probably needs to think better about what a procedure is for him/her, and certailnly avoid embarrassing themselves - and us - in talking about the need to follow procedures & refrain from unilaterism. Everyone that's reading this knows what is talked about. I hope you're OK with it, you sure understand that by attempting to repeatedly disturb the fluent maintenance here, stalk editors and thwart even the most casual category fixings, you achieve little, and by restoring content again and again to suit your lonely, non-existent positions you do not forward your goal. As you know, in the end I win and the cats are virtually all renamed, so why go through this?

As to the current matter, again, you don't have a right to "disqualify" reparative move commands upon unfounded, irrelevant basis; by cross-checking a given category's title like category:Rosh Ha'Ayin with its en wiki parallel, which is not our source, no point is shown other than suggesting that some sources on the web employ different variants to foreign-language names, which is OK as a side-remark but not enough for actually stopping a category from being fixed in the light of language guidelines; and the reason you're ignored when doing so is because the experience shows that you use the more-established procedures to withhold processes for ever and that you employ such method not because you hold any varying topical opinion but due to your zeal for thwarting any initiative by me and constituting a stable bigot opposition to the corrective school on Commons. Your personal issue with editors isn't what bothers but only the hardening on self-obvious processes is why I'm here at your talkpage, asking you once again to abandon it, and motivate us to regard you in a better light trying to give you a chance to show that you're an impartial, reasonable and peaceful Commons participant. To end, your attempt with Rosh Ha'Ayin Forest and Rosh Ha'Ayin industrial area was of course a bad idea and I'm therefore reverting you, but you're most welcome to add your opinion about the transliteration of Rosh Ha'Ayin at the talkpage to get things about spelling agreed from a scholarly position. Orrlingtalk 14:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It is true that there is uniformity missing for transliteration from Hebrew to English; in general, there seems to be 2 or 3 schools. With Category talk:Neve Sha'anan and en:Talk:Neve Sha'anan you proved that you have your own and original version and I had to protect some cats to stop your edit warring. As I told you before, we won't argue on Commons about the transliteration rules; we follow the en:wikipedia. If you want something changed; get it changed there and we will follow (after a while when it is proven to be stable). Moreover, basically on Commons, we don't care what punctuation version is taken, as long as the related subcategories are named in a consistent way with the parent categories. While you reverted some cats in an inconsistent state, a collegue of Israel reverted it again in a consistent state, which you reverted again. To stop that silly edit war, I blocked you for a couple of days after I had warned you on your talk page. --Foroa (talk) 19:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
You blocked Orrling before you replied here, or on the relevant category talk pages. Your "last warning" on Orrling's talk page was incomprehensible. See Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#User:Foroa. The Commons does not depend on English Wikipedia spelling. That is your personal rule, and it is incorrect. You are not a native speaker of English anyway, and I am, and so I know a little more about what I am talking about concerning this: English Wikipedia has frequent misspelling of article names because people do not get around to correcting them. We on the Commons do not wait on English Wikipedia to fix their many problems, or many things would not get done in a timely way on the Commons.
Orrling had the correct spelling. The correct English spelling as far as I can tell is Rosh Ha'Ayin. See these English-language articles from 2 well-known publications that cover Israel:
1.5 billion barrels of oil discovered near Rosh Ha'Ayin. August 17, 2010. Ynet.
Israeli company finds oil beneath Rosh Ha'ayin. By Lior Zano, Dec.24, 2009. Haaretz. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)



Thank you for correction! Google translater writes bonthandelar with two a at the end? I know, it is your moedertoale ... ;) Is it a mistake of Google (and my dictionary too) or an old writing?--Kürschner (talk) 07:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed in Dutch: handelaar. But plural is handelaars (more modern I guess) or handelaren. Making a plural is not always adding a s or n; that would be too simple. In West Flemish we would use commersant or mersjang (vellemersjang for the person that trades the skins). --Foroa (talk) 07:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Ach du meine Güte - oh my goodness - oh mijn god, hoe ingewikkeld. I will delete the second a in all category descriptions - the rest should do a native. Danke vielmals, hartelijk dank van de --Kürschner (talk) 08:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Just make a template {{Catdef furriers}} and include that where needed. Using {{On Wikipedia}} might be more universal. --Foroa (talk) 08:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
If I see it right, it gives only the translation for one term. But I cannot write, for example this category describes furriers in BELGIUM? So I think it will be more informative to stay with the up to now used template? --Kürschner (talk) 09:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
"in Belgium" could be passed as a parameter, but you don't need a university degree to understand that it concerns items in Belgium. What's important is that the keywords are there so we can search on it. I think that it is better to have one general instruction for all pages than 99 different ones spread out all over the categories. --Foroa (talk) 10:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)--Foroa (talk) 10:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh, sehr schön jetzt, danke! --Kürschner (talk) 11:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Diesel locomotive TE3Edit

The long name of category isn't necessary --Karel (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

That's you opinion, not the one of the person that created the category. Please follow standard Commons procedures for category renaming. We are heading for 3 million categories this year, so in such an internal context, a 3 letter category is just ridiculous. Commons:Categories states clearly: The category name would be enough to guess the subject,, so don't tell me that TE3 complies. Most categories here will be renamed sooner or later. --Foroa (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
«Soviet locomotive ТЭ3» or «TE3 (locomotive)» — such option is better? --Karel (talk) 19:10, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I reply on the rename request, lets keep discussions together in one place. --Foroa (talk) 20:10, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Stained glass windowsEdit

Hello, Foroa, I should like to have redirects from the old Category:Stained glass glass windows of ... to the new categories, as it permits more easily to find the categories during upload. The new names are not as easy to find as the old ones, which have all the same beginning of name. --Havang(nl) (talk) 11:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no time to create and maintain hundreds of redirects. --Foroa (talk) 16:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Moving filesEdit

Hallo Foroa, could you please move following files I uploaded from numbers only to more specific names author_source_number, please? or give me the rights to do so --PigeonIP (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I have to thank you, for your input. --PigeonIP (talk) 19:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Categories on KautsyEdit

Dag Foroa, wil je, wanneer je even de tijd hebt, de category:Karl Kautsky en category:Luise Kautsky nazien? Ik heb zo de indruk dat ik hier niet goed bezig ben. Dank je. Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 15:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Niet slecht; de category verwijst altijd naar de hogere orde/parent/familie. Het probleem was dat de family weer naar "beneden" ging, dus een cirkel maakte. Dat zou nu moeten opgelost zijn. Muggezifters zouden wel kunnen zagen omtrent overcat omdat vanuit vb category:Benedikt Kautsky verwezen wordt naar zijn vader, moeder en familie, hetgeen in feite 2 klasseringsystemen in één is. Niks van aantrekken dus, noch van het feit dat ik de echtgenote als subcat maak van de man, maar ik weet geen betere methode om koppeltjes te maken. --Foroa (talk) 13:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Dankjewel Foroa, echtgenote als subcat van de man... een beetje zoals Adam en Eva dan? ;-) Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 18:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Inderdaad, ambetant om de een subcat te maken van de andere, maar als je ze kruist gaat er in de kortste keren iemand ze gaan verwijderen als circulaire cat. En zonder relatie is ook triestig ... --Foroa (talk) 18:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Ja, zoals ze zeggen, een mens is niet gemaakt om alleen te zijn. ;-) Lotje ʘ‿ʘ (talk) 18:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


Hallo Foroa: is it possible to create a template like this

for all categories of pigeon breeds with ee-standards? It should allow to refer to groups as well as single breeds and breeds with "double" standards like Category:South German Monk? --PigeonIP (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe with the "EE-cycle" of the following logo [27] --PigeonIP (talk) 12:52, 14 December 2012 (UTC)